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Of course he's getting the max. It was never a question.
He gets way too much hate in here, and it's for two reasons.
1) The Cavs have a disproportionate amount of quality high profile posters on ISH, that attracts the trolls.
2) He's never won anything. Literally nothing. He's never accomplished a damned thing in his career besides some gaudy ppg numbers, and that gets on people's nerves when a guy like that is labeled a 'superstar' when he's never done anything real.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]LOL @ all of the bolded.[/QUOTE]
Lowry was a better player than Irving last year.
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Lowry was a better player than Irving last year.[/QUOTE]
Debatable, but I would probably agree. His team was very good and that goes a long way. Statistically, an argument could be made either way.
Irving - 20.8 / 6.1 / 3.6 on 43 / 36 / 86
Lowry - 17.9 / 7.4 / 4.7 on 42 / 38 / 81
But, again... perspective. This discussion is about whether or not Irving deserves the max. So look a little deeper than just "who had a better season."
Lowry has never even approached a season like 2013-14 and he'll be 29 next year. Irving will be 22.
When Lowry was Irving's age, he was in his second year and a backup. And, even with that, Lowry is considered the top point guard on the market and may be turning down $12 million a year to stay in Toronto.
[QUOTE=hawksdogsbraves]He's never won anything. Literally nothing. He's never accomplished a damned thing in his career besides some gaudy ppg numbers, and that gets on people's nerves when a guy like that is labeled a 'superstar' when he's never done anything real.[/QUOTE]
Fair, but also important to note he's not exactly out of the ordinary in not accomplishing much in three seasons and at 21. The same could have been said for John Wall, Steph Curry and plenty of others at this stage in their respective careers.
When you dig beyond the surface, you find how incredibly rare it is for a point guard to be as good as Irving is right now at his age. For perspective, he's eight months younger than Shabazz Napier. He's younger than Damon Lillard and Michael Carter-Williams. Hell, he may have been the youngest starting PG in the entire NBA last year.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Fair, but also important to note he's not exactly out of the ordinary in not accomplishing much in three seasons and at 21. The same could have been said for John Wall, Steph Curry and plenty of others at this stage in their respective careers.
When you dig beyond the surface, you find how incredibly rare it is for a point guard to be as good as Irving is right now at his age. For perspective, he's eight months younger than Shabazz Napier.[/QUOTE]
I consider making the playoffs an accomplishment for young players, which those two have done and Kyrie hasn't. I do think that's moreso because of his team, but at the same time he does play in the East.
However, I do agree with you about the age. That piece about Shabazz is really interesting. Although I feel that the hype that he currently has is unwarranted (absolutely shouldn't have been an all-star starter), this 5-year deal is very smart because in a few years I feel that he could be very very good.
[QUOTE=DoodleDa][B]I consider making the playoffs an accomplishment for young players, which those two have done and Kyrie hasn't.[/B] I do think that's moreso because of his team, but at the same time he does play in the East.
However, I do agree with you about the age. That piece about Shabazz is really interesting. Although I feel that the hype that he currently has is unwarranted (absolutely shouldn't have been an all-star starter), this 5-year deal is very smart because in a few years I feel that he could be very very good.[/QUOTE]
I said "at that stage in their respective careers."
When Steph Curry was 21, he was a rookie and the Warriors were 26-56. In his third season (when he was 23), they were still just 23-43. Neither team was close to the playoffs, obviously.
When John Wall was 21, he was in his second season and the Wizards were 20-46. In his third season (at 22), the Wizards were 29-53.
So, my point stands. Like I said, it may be hard to believe, but I think Irving was the youngest starting PG in the entire league last year. Definitely the youngest in the East that I can think of... Trey Burke was the only younger one in the league, I believe, and they're close in age (within 7-8 months).
That's pretty obviously the difference between Kyrie and all of these other guys he is being compared to. A lot of them weren't even in the league at 21. Kyrie was busy finishing his third season, over which time he's averaged 21 points and 6 assists on 45% shooting. That is rare. Very rare.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]LOL @ all of the bolded.[/QUOTE]
You're overrating Kyrie incredibly. He hasn't done anything and is very injury prone.
Avery Bradley is a monster on the defensive end, but seeing as you're a stat whore, i'm not gonna take this discussion to you.
Parsons is better all-around and more valuable to a team, better durability too.
Deng is a no-brainer, only a homer would say Kyrie is a better player.
[QUOTE=SexSymbol]You're overrating Kyrie incredibly. He hasn't done anything and is very injury prone.
Avery Bradley is a monster on the defensive end, but seeing as you're a stat whore, i'm not gonna take this discussion to you.
Parsons is better all-around and more valuable to a team, better durability too.
Deng is a no-brainer, only a homer would say Kyrie is a better player.[/QUOTE]
I don't really think you watched much of Deng last year.
As expected.. Good for the cavs, kyries a beast, hopefully the new coach uses him properly. Unlike fu*ktard brown:facepalm Wonder if they'll move dion now?:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=DukeDelonte13]I don't really think you watched much of Deng last year.[/QUOTE]
I did, one year doesn't take away from him being a great player. He was injured after all.
if deng continues his sucky ass performances this year then yeah, maybe Kyrie is a better player, but for now there's no chance.
Kyrie hasn't proven he can be a good leader, or play winning basketball.
[QUOTE=SexSymbol]I did, one year doesn't take away from him being a great player. He was injured after all.
if deng continues his sucky ass performances this year then yeah, maybe Kyrie is a better player, but for now there's no chance.
[B]Kyrie hasn't proven he can be a good leader, or play winning basketball.[/B][/QUOTE]
I agree with you on those two points, but what RBA and others are saying is that he's still very damn young.
He did take steps this past year. People say he regressed his last season and I say that that's BS. He played a more complete game this past season. He exerted himself much more defensively and did do a better job of moving the ball and not sticking so much. He's not so far off from being exactly where the cavs need him to be.
I'm hoping Blatt and the clinic that San Antonio put on Miami this year wakes his ass up and shows him that ball movement + easy buckets is better than ISO's all day every day.
[QUOTE=DukeDelonte13]I agree with you on those two points, but what RBA and others are saying is that he's still very damn young.
He did take steps this past year. People say he regressed his last season and I say that that's BS. He played a more complete game this past season. He exerted himself much more defensively and did do a better job of moving the ball and not sticking so much. He's not so far off from being exactly where the cavs need him to be.
I'm hoping Blatt and the clinic that San Antonio put on Miami this year wakes his ass up and shows him that ball movement + easy buckets is better than ISO's all day every day.[/QUOTE]
I'm not arguing that he's not improving, he obviously is and he will improve.
But he's not a max player in any way, if you have to let him walk, then let him, don't pay such ridiculous amount of money for a player who's not worth more than 12 mil/y and even then if u don't have anything worth mentioning on your team.
I hope he finally lead the Cavs into the playoffs. Dude has a better supporting casts than Cleveland LeBron.
[QUOTE=SexSymbol]I'm not arguing that he's not improving, he obviously is and he will improve.
But he's not a max player in any way, if you have to let him walk, then let him, don't pay such ridiculous amount of money for a player who's not worth more than 12 mil/y and even then if u don't have anything worth mentioning on your team.[/QUOTE]
he's worth it and he's not.
He's like a pair of Gucci sunglasses. Are they worth the stupid expensive price tag? Hell no. Will somebody certainly pay the price for them? Of course.
It's Cleveland. They have to retain their young talent because they aren't getting any via free agency. Kyrie was going to get a max deal regardless if it was Cleveland or some other team. He's not truly a franchise player at this point, but his value on the NBA market is a max deal.
I think letting him walk depends on the franchise's ownership situation, and Cavs have Gilbert who has historically had 0 problems spending and has said he has no problem going into the lux tax. I'm not in love with Kyrie Irving as a Cavs fan, but letting him go would be a step back.
[QUOTE=Lebron23]I hope he finally lead the Cavs into the playoffs. Dude has a better supporting casts than Cleveland LeBron.[/QUOTE]
That's debatable. Cavs are still a super young team and Lebron's teams were very veteran heavy.
Young teams don't typically do well in the NBA.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]I said "at that stage in their respective careers.[/QUOTE]
True. My bad, must've skipped that.
[QUOTE=SexSymbol]I'm not arguing that he's not improving, he obviously is and he will improve.
But he's not a max player in any way, if you have to let him walk, then let him, don't pay such ridiculous amount of money for a player who's not worth more than 12 mil/y and even then if u don't have anything worth mentioning on your team.[/QUOTE]
You don't think that Kyrie's continued improvement and eventual peak (when taking into account how young he is) doesn't warrant a max contract? You also have to remember that we're talking about the Cavs.
Good to hear for us. Finally, we have not just one but two players who have the potential to be a top 5 player or maybe even better at their position in this league. Just imagine if LeBron came now. I doubt he will but just imagine. All this young talent around him, money still left over to sign free agents who KNOW LeBron will be there. It would be unbelievable.
correct me if im wrong but kyrie is only making a little over 7 mill this year and im guessing when his raise kicks in the year after he will only be getting like 11 million. people saying he isnt worth 12 do realize he wont see that for 3 more years right?
how to shoot a team in the foot = Timberwolves Garnet era.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]But, again... perspective. This discussion is about whether or not Irving deserves the max. So look a little deeper than just "who had a better season." [/QUOTE]
My statement wasn't about the topic at hand. Thread topic rarely stays on topic to begin with.
On topic, yes you pay him the max. Whether he's deserving of it is irrelevant for a young player. That really shouldn't have been up for discussion.
[QUOTE=SexSymbol]Kyrie did not earn his max contract. If he did, then we have incredibly low standards for max players, Deng is a better player and he's not getting a max, Parsons is a better player and he's not getting a max, same as Lowry.
Of course it's a weak comparison, Isiah Thomas is better, has a better character, better passer, better defender, much more heart in him.
Shit, I'd take Avery Bradley, Lance Stephenson over him in a heart beat.
Kyrie is incredibly overrated, he's a no defense, injury prone gunner who has little to no passing ability as a point guard[/QUOTE]
How do you feel about this deal now?
And Avery Bradley, Lance Stephenson? C'mon man.
This deal was obviously a good decision even back then. \
Cavs will win the chip in 2015-2016
[QUOTE=CTbasketball92]How do you feel about this deal now?
And Avery Bradley, Lance Stephenson? C'mon man.
This deal was obviously a good decision even back then. \
Cavs will win the chip in 2015-2016[/QUOTE]
Nice bump.