The GOAT List: 2014 Edition

[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]Excellent work, GOAT, as usual.

All of your threads should be compiled into a book. That's largely an untapped market :cheers:

Grandmamma was one of the biggest stars in the NBA when I started watching (1991), and turned into my generation's what-if story. :facepalm[/QUOTE]

Thanks, one day. I want to do a real good job though, I don't want to produce bad art. I'd have to stop critiquing everything.

I love seeing so many of you guys from the first thread five years ago popping in to say hello. Wish people like you were around here posting content and comments more often.

Thanks again for the compliment and support and rest assured that until the day you do me the honor of buying my book, all my scraps and half thoughts will be filtered for bull[COLOR="Navy"]s[/COLOR]hit here on ish.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#167 Leonard Eugene Robinson
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 11 (6)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on borderline playoff teams/#3/#4 on good teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-11-2-1 on 49/67
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]P[/SIZE]erception is a funny thing. Leonard Robinson is actually a friendly guy. Likeable, personable, and even his game on the court was one more of finesse than fury. Yet, for reasons more involving rookie hazing than actually fitting the man, he became Truck Robinson. Though he was reluctant to embrace the name, as he became a star playing the game his way, he saw the benefits of people, even players, perceiving him another; "At first, I didn't like (Truck), but later on I was getting away with stuff at my size that I shouldn't have been getting away with, just with that name. I'd never been in fights or anything like that in the NBA. You just get a reputation. New guys come in the league, young guys, and I'd see their eyes from watching me on TV, and they'd say 'That's the Truck.' When I went to the hole, guys would just move out of the way." In eleven pro seasons, Robinson played for five teams in five cities and made an impact everywhere he went. Starting in Washington, with the Bullets, Robinson was a reserve forward. In his rookie season of 1974-75 they went to the NBA Finals. The eighth man, Robinson was largely left out of the playoff rotation. The next season he became the first man of the bench, averaged 11-7, but in the playoffs again saw his minutes dwindle. By 1976-77 season it was clear Robinson was going to be an impact player. He averaged 16 points 9 rebounds in 41 games, but the Bullets were committed to Unseld and Hayes up front and shipped Robinson to the Hawks for guard Tom Henderson. Robinson played out the season and signed a free agent contract with the Jazz. In his one full season in New Orleans Robinson had a career year paired alongside Pete Maravich. He averaged 23 points and 16 rebounds, earned all-NBA first team honors even, but the Jazz stunk. 39-43, a bummer. He was traded the next season to Phoenix. The Suns had begun to rise in 1976, making the NBA finals by surprise. Now they needed a rebounder. Robinson had averaged more rebounds than the Suns top two glass men in 1978 so he seemed like a nice fit. They gave up two first round picks and a couple scrubs and added Robinson to a core of guards Walter Davis, Paul Westphal and center Alvan Adams. In three and a half seasons with the Suns Robinson averaged 19 points and 11 rebounds, but dropped to 11 points and 8 rebounds in the playoffs. He did however make make his second all-star team and his only conference finals as a starter in 1979. After the 1982 season, Truck was traded to New York for fellow veteran Maurice Lucas. He played two seasons as a Knicks and retired in 1984. Paul Westphal remembers him as having earned his nickname rather he liked it or not. "I remember he was the kind of guy who never seemed to get tired. He was always there banging, getting rebounds, doing what he did best. He brought his lunch pail everyday."
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#166 Phillip Chenier
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 10 (5)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-4-3-2
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE]nother player who had his career destroyed by injuries and never got to reach his full potential. Phil Chenier was a smooth but lightning quick high-flying guard who could score the ball in a variety of ways and shut down an opponent on defense. His long arms and great timing made him one of the league leaders in steals and best shot blocking guards of the era. His picturesque jump shot has made him a favorite of contemporary fans ever since. After being selected to the all-rookie team in 1972, Chenier made three all-star teams and was an all-NBA selection in 1975 when he averaged 22 points per game for the league's best team. His teammates describe him as one of the most skilled guys they ever played with and a top rate teammate. His battles with Walt Frazier, where he frequently held his own at least, show just how good a player he was and could have been for a long time. Though he humble conceds that Frazier was better and contends that they look more alike than they played alike, the two were often compared. And as this SI piece from the 1974 playoffs shows, Chenier could get the better on occasion. “And the Bullet guards were conspiring meanwhile to give Monroe and Frazier a lot of unexpected pain. Chenier's contribution was mostly in the form of his precise jumper on offense and repeated blocks of Frazier's jumpers on defense. By the end of the fourth game Chenier had outscored Walt by 23 points. In the second game he held him to just six, and in the third, Frazier left the Garden court to the loudest boos of his career.” Few people have any idea just how good Phil Chenier was. It's rare to hear folks recall just how easily he could drop 30 points on an opponent. Effortlessly, smooth, seemingly without breaking a sweat. Chenier was the key to the Bullets back court during the middle seasons between Monroe and Dandridge the former and later perimeter stars for the Bullets during the Unseld years. In Chenier's five healthy seasons as a starter the Bullets never won fewer than 47 games. In 1975 they won 60 games and advanced to the finals before being upset by the Warriors. Chenier was at his best in the postseason where he scored at least 24 points twenty times, 30 points seven times and 35 points five times. Sadly a back injury early in the 1977-78 season forced Chenier to sit out during the Bullets run to the finals that season where they finally won a title. Though he wasn't on the court for the much of the season, it's fitting he received a ring as he was one of a major reasons for the Bullets success in the seventies. For the last twenty five years Chenier could be heard as a broadcaster for the Bullets, I mean Wizards. No I mean Bullets.
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I made a thread a few years back about Johnson, the already mentioned Derrick Coleman and the soon to be mentioned Shawn Kemp. How those 3 guys were the future of the power forward position after Chuck and Mailman came in and wrecked havoc in the mid to late 80s.

And all three of them will end up being trivia questions years from now. They're still somewhat fresh in fans minds as it's only been ten or so years since they've been gone.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I made a thread a few years back about Johnson, the already mentioned Derrick Coleman and the soon to be mentioned Shawn Kemp. How those 3 guys were the future of the power forward position after Chuck and Mailman came in and wrecked havoc in the mid to late 80s.

And all three of them will end up being trivia questions years from now. They're still somewhat fresh in fans minds as it's only been ten or so years since they've been gone.[/QUOTE]

I remember [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241629"]that thread[/URL]

Here was my response then as it is today...

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]The beginning of the entitlement generation. Too much money too quickly. Most of the stars of that generation including these guys were well past their prime before 30. A big part of why guys like Jordan, Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Stockton, Malone etc. stayed dominant for so long.

Add to the list Kenny Anderson, Vin Baker, Isiah Rider, Jimmy Jackson etc.

But the three you mentioned were the best examples. What great starts. Johnson broke down physically, Coleman mentally and Kemp psychologically, but they all broke down. I'd agree that Coleman seemed the most destined for stardom. It seemed only a matter of time before he, not Kemp joined Barkley and Malone as the games best power forwards.

Perhaps their choices of shoe contracts should have clued us in. Kemp signed with Reebok, thus he had staying power and peaked pretty high, but was never the best. Johnson, a converse star, peaked with the company and faded from the market just as fast. And Coleman...he signed with British Knights. The cycle of bad choices had begun before we even realized it.[/QUOTE]

Truck Robinson, too me he seemed like an Otis Thorpe/Charles Oakley type player. Except it looked like he scored more than those guys.

But maybe he was more of the Maurice Lucas/Jeff Ruland role?

The mid 70s NBA is the least talked about (besides the pre-shot clock era.)

You just named 3 players, Truck and the Phil's (Smith and Chenier) who very seldom get bought up if at all.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#165 Gilbert Jay Arenas
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 11 (5)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #1 option on borderline playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 24-4-6-2 on 42-36-82
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]o call Gilbert Arenas weird might be selling him short. To me, he

I think Arenas was on his way to a hall of fame career. A difference one game makes. On the night he was injured vs the Bobcats he did not start. Why? He got caught in traffic and was late to shoot around for the first time in his career. Eddie Jordan punished him and benched him for the start of the game. Upon entering the game Gerald Wallace runs into his knee and that was the end of Agent Zero as we know it.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#163 Joakim Simon Noah
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 7 (5)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on borderline contender/#1 on playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 12-11-3-1-2 on 50/73
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]S[/SIZE]ome players are just winners. From his time at Florida a few things have been readily apparent about Joakim Noah; first, he is anything but orthodox, two, he has a lot of fun playing basketball and competing, and three, he’s a winner. Billy Donovon, his college coach, describes why: "He's just a great competitor, teammate, warrior. He's about all the right things." From his rookie year, the Bulls showed steady improvement until Derrick Rose’s injury in 2011 derailed them. At first he was a role player. An energy guy getting rebounds, playing defense and scoring when the opportunities were there only. He developed into an all-NBA defender in 2011 and since the Rose injury he’s taken on the role of leader and becoming an MVP candidate. He’s posted his best two statistical seasons across the board the last two years as he expanded his game including an outstanding 5.4 assists per game last year, easily tops among centers. He was even named defensive player of the year in 2014. What makes Noah so good is what makes him so unique. He thrives at the parts of the game few players pay adequate attention to: Defensive positioning, ball security, setting screens, offensive rebounding, passing, Noah plays the game like a throwback. But he’s also a little out there, just ask his teammates, like Carlos Boozer; "He's different; he grew up different, he's a very free spirit and it works for him." Or as Taj Gibson put it simply; “He’s a weirdo.” His side spinning jump shot, dubbed “the Tornado”, also weird has evolved into a major weapon from 18 feet and in. His post game has improved and his role in the Bulls offense last year was even larger then some all-star point guards. (in terms of touches) If the Bulls ever get their current core healthy, it’s gonna be real exciting. Without a title in the NBA so far, Noah is still driven to continue improving. He seems committed to the Bulls and is resolved that all these struggles will only make it sweeter. "Everything that we're going through is just going to make us enjoy our championship ring that much more when we get it," Noah said. "And there's no doubt in my mind that we'll get it."
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#162 Blake Austin Griffin
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 4 (4)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2 on middle of the pack playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-10-4-1-1 on 53/64
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE] run of three straight modern players who rather conveniently finished 4th, 5th, 6th in last years MVP voting. These represent some of the games best young players and especially in the case of Blake Griffin, most exciting players as well. After being drafted first overall by the Los Angeles Franchise not called the Lakers in 2009 and missing his entire rookie season with injury, it seemed the Clipper curse would live on. But the next year fate, and David Stern stepped in. The league voided a trade that would have sent Chris Paul to the Lakers and instead he ended up with the Clippers, who were transformed from afterthought to possible contenders. Griffin who had won the rookie of the year in 2011 Dunking his way through a losing season but establishing himself as a marketable star with his Dunk Contest performance. He made the all-star that season and has each year of his career so far. His resume gets even more impressive when you add two MVP top tens (3rd last year) and three second team all-NBA selections already. In the playoffs he’s had his issues, being bullied by Zach Randolph in 2012, playing hurt, but ineffectively in the 2013 playoffs, but last year (2013-14) he took a big step. Averaging 24/10/4 and shooting 53% from the field while topping 70% from the line for the first time. He had his best playoffs, but the Clippers still came up short in the second round against Oklahoma City. After the series, Thunder coach Scott Brooks paid Griffin a compliment : "When Chris Paul went out, you saw that he took his game to another level. You also saw his leadership. It's one thing to put numbers up but you have to put numbers up by leading and helping your team win, and that's what he did. He won a lot of games without him. He's going to be an MVP candidate for many years. He's a young player that has improved every year he's been in the league, and that's what you want your players to do." He’s not just a dunker anymore, I hope the league is on notice, because so long as Blake and Chris Paul are in LA the Clippers are going to be a force.
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[QUOTE=T_L_P]Really interested to see if/where you place Brad Daugherty![/QUOTE]

Wait no longer...

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#161 Brad Daugherty
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 8 (6)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on middle of the pack playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 19-10-4-1 on 54/76
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]W[/SIZE]atching Brad Daugherty growing up I could help but think

I never really thought of Peja all that far off from someone like Ray Allen but now that I look at it Peja really only had half as many all star level seasons as Ray.

[QUOTE=magnax1]I never really thought of Peja all that far off from someone like Ray Allen but now that I look at it Peja really only had half as many all star level seasons as Ray.[/QUOTE]

Maybe even one third as many.

Had Ray's career ended in Seattle in 2007, he was Peja range, a bit higher probably, but top-100 at best.

His late career was Reggie Miller-esque. Raised his ranking a lot I believe.

What do you think?

Any other players who raised themselves late in their careers?

Malone and Stockton stand out...

Also Magnax and anyone else....what do you think of the ranking of the three current players in this recent group...Harden, Noah, Blake?
Robert Parish? Steve Nash? Dirk? KG?

[QUOTE]Maybe even one third as many.

Had Ray's career ended in Seattle in 2007, he was Peja range, a bit higher probably, but top-100 at best.

His late career was Reggie Miller-esque. Raised his ranking a lot I believe.

What do you think?[/QUOTE]
That's probably pretty fair. I don't think it's quite reggie Miller level though. Reggie was a similar caliber of player at 35 as he was at 25, which I wouldn't say of Ray Allen.

[QUOTE]Any other players who raised themselves late in their careers?[/QUOTE]
Kobe has impressed me in terms of longevity. Only really him Malone and Kareem have had 14 or more seasons where they were top 10 in the league. At least that I can think of.
I was fond of the way Kidd reinvented himself, and the Mavs owe their championship to his ability to run that offense effectively in 11 (which is something that never gets mentioned) In fact I was more fond of the way he played at the end of his career.

[QUOTE]Also Magnax and anyone else....what do you think of the ranking of the three current players in this recent group...Harden, Noah, Blake?[/QUOTE]
I've never been fond of Noah. I think he's a glorified hustle guy, and his defense is very over rated to me. Of course compared to other guys who get you 12-10 or whatever he's great, but there are lots and lots of center I'd take over him.
I think Blake deserves a bump. He's not quite that tier with Duncan and Dirk and Barkley and those other guys but he's knocked on the door last season (and Im talking about just that one season). He had a much less disappointing playoffs than usual too.
Harden has put up some very empty stats in my mind. Even if you look past his defense, which is definitely among the worst in the league, he really has fallen short in all of his playoffs. He definitely disappeared last year despite Dwight giving them a real chance to advance, and he was worthless in stretches of that finals run in OKC.
[QUOTE]Robert Parish? Steve Nash? Dirk? KG?[/QUOTE]
Parish is hard to say. Probably top 50. I'd have to think about it, but he was great early in boston, and he lasted forever. Possibly at some point the third best center in the league.
Nash is at least top 35 probably. He's one of the best offensive players ever. I think two of his phoenix teams were statistically top 10 offenses ever when adjusted in a season by season basis. 4 in the top 20. I think the only other guys who have done that are Jordan, Stockton & Malone, and Magic. If he had any sort of impact in terms of rebounding or defense he would've been a top 20 player IMO, and that's really the only reason his teams kept losing. They never kept up in those categories despite being dominant on offense.
Dirk I'd say is similar to Nash. I'm sure people will say his championship separates him, but they really aren't different in impact. I mean, Dirk also never contributed much except his offense, and I don't think he was as good on that side as Nash. He was a good, but not elite rebounder for a few years. He never changed games by getting boards like Shaq or Duncan did in the same era, and by the time he was a champion Dwyane Wade was getting as many rebounds as him in the playoffs. Of course Dirk had his best season since 2011 last year, so I'd say he has plenty of chance for improvement if he puts up a couple more borderline top 10 in the league seasons.
KG is top 20. I think I have him at like 15. He's a top 10 defender ever, head of arguably the best defense ever in 08 Boston, one of the best passers ever at his position, one of the best rebounders ever at his position, gets your 20-25 points, will fit with literally any team you put him on, can play Center to Small forward, can guard 3 positions, and maybe shooting guard too if it's a good matchup. His 04 seasons is probably the best ever by a power forward in my mind. Not a dominant scorer, but dominant in every other way. Kind of similar to Russell in that sense.

[QUOTE=magnax1]That's probably pretty fair. I don't think it's quite reggie Miller level though. Reggie was a similar caliber of player at 35 as he was at 25, which I wouldn't say of Ray Allen.


Kobe has impressed me in terms of longevity. Only really him Malone and Kareem have had 14 or more seasons where they were top 10 in the league. At least that I can think of.
I was fond of the way Kidd reinvented himself, and the Mavs owe their championship to his ability to run that offense effectively in 11 (which is something that never gets mentioned) In fact I was more fond of the way he played at the end of his career.


I've never been fond of Noah. I think he's a glorified hustle guy, and his defense is very over rated to me. Of course compared to other guys who get you 12-10 or whatever he's great, but there are lots and lots of center I'd take over him.
I think Blake deserves a bump. He's not quite that tier with Duncan and Dirk and Barkley and those other guys but he's knocked on the door last season (and Im talking about just that one season). He had a much less disappointing playoffs than usual too.
Harden has put up some very empty stats in my mind. Even if you look past his defense, which is definitely among the worst in the league, he really has fallen short in all of his playoffs. He definitely disappeared last year despite Dwight giving them a real chance to advance, and he was worthless in stretches of that finals run in OKC.

Parish is hard to say. Probably top 50. I'd have to think about it, but he was great early in boston, and he lasted forever. Possibly at some point the third best center in the league.
Nash is at least top 35 probably. He's one of the best offensive players ever. I think two of his phoenix teams were statistically top 10 offenses ever when adjusted in a season by season basis. 4 in the top 20. I think the only other guys who have done that are Jordan, Stockton & Malone, and Magic. If he had any sort of impact in terms of rebounding or defense he would've been a top 20 player IMO, and that's really the only reason his teams kept losing. They never kept up in those categories despite being dominant on offense.
Dirk I'd say is similar to Nash. I'm sure people will say his championship separates him, but they really aren't different in impact. I mean, Dirk also never contributed much except his offense, and I don't think he was as good on that side as Nash. He was a good, but not elite rebounder for a few years. He never changed games by getting boards like Shaq or Duncan did in the same era, and by the time he was a champion Dwyane Wade was getting as many rebounds as him in the playoffs. Of course Dirk had his best season since 2011 last year, so I'd say he has plenty of chance for improvement if he puts up a couple more borderline top 10 in the league seasons.
KG is top 20. I think I have him at like 15. He's a top 10 defender ever, head of arguably the best defense ever in 08 Boston, one of the best passers ever at his position, one of the best rebounders ever at his position, gets your 20-25 points, will fit with literally any team you put him on, can play Center to Small forward, can guard 3 positions, and maybe shooting guard too if it's a good matchup. His 04 seasons is probably the best ever by a power forward in my mind. Not a dominant scorer, but dominant in every other way. Kind of similar to Russell in that sense.[/QUOTE]

Thanks man, really good response.

We think so much differently but I love hearing your perspective because it makes me consider things from a different angle.

Care to do a quick breakdown of KG, Malone, Barkley ranking them in scoring, rebounding, passing, defense with a few thoughts plus an overall general ranking?

GOAT, I'm curious...

Do you already have all the spots decided or are you thinking it over day by day?

And, how much longer do you think it will take you to finish this? I'm excited for the top 100, and especially top 50/25/10.

Finally, have you done this on ISH before? I couldn't find any threads from past years.

I'm surprised to see Noah on this list and above some other current bigs like his former teammate Boozer and past bigs like Buck Williams. And I like Noah.

Groza teammate Spivey was a star in the Eastern league along with other NBA rejects like Hal Lear and John Chaney.

[QUOTE=RRR3]GOAT, I'm curious...

Do you already have all the spots decided or are you thinking it over day by day?[/quote]

I have a list, over 1000 players with 25 columns of criteria, but it's constantly fluid. I don't make a lot of regular changes during the list process here because I spend most of time editing and adding to their mini-bios I've written.

[QUOTE=RRR3]And, how much longer do you think it will take you to finish this? I'm excited for the top 100, and especially top 50/25/10.[/quote]

Well so far I'm going at a pretty fast clip. In 12 days I've coverd over 60 players more than five a day. At that pace I'll be done in a little over a month. Depending on how good the debate/conversation gets once we get into the top 100, I'd say anywhere from Mid-September to Early October as a finish point. I will have it done before the tip-off of the 2014-15 season.

[QUOTE=RRR3]Finally, have you done this on ISH before? I couldn't find any threads from past years.[/QUOTE]

The original thread was in 2009, there were some additions from there, a short lived update in 2012 and there is another thread with my updated top 100 from 2011 ish somewhere. Here's the links I could find.

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143465"]Original Thread[/URL]

Very short 2012 update starts at page 108.

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=268753"]Updated top 100 2011 list[/URL], released before 2012 off-season editing.



[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I'm surprised to see Noah on this list and above some other current bigs like his former teammate Boozer and past bigs like Buck Williams. And I like Noah.[/quote]

I may have gone too high here, prisoner of the moment stuff. But he was damn good last year. A better year than Buck or Boozer ever had, still in terms of career, I surely see their case over him.



[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Groza teammate Spivey was a star in the Eastern league along with other NBA rejects like Hal Lear and John Chaney.[/QUOTE]

I'd love any info you have on them via PM. I have a few books, but even they barely touch on the Eastern League.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Thanks man, really good response.

We think so much differently but I love hearing your perspective because it makes me consider things from a different angle.

Care to do a quick breakdown of KG, Malone, Barkley ranking them in scoring, rebounding, passing, defense with a few thoughts plus an overall general ranking?[/QUOTE]
Sure.
Scoring, I'd definitely say Barkley's first. Not only did he put up volume, but he was insanely efficient (lead the league in TS% four years running) and I think he was one of those guys like Shaq who's scoring stats don't do them justice even if the numbers were great on their own. Second is probably Malone. Great scorer, but more in the flow of the offense which hurt him late in games and in the playoffs. There are a couple playoff series where he just couldn't get a shot up and the Jazz lost it because of that. KG is three. Probably could've scored more if he wanted to, but he didn't like playing in the post where he was probably most effective for whatever reason. Very good second scoring option ideally.
Rebounding I'd say Barkley has a very slight advantage over KG. Honestly they're more or less equal, and I might say something different tommorow. I think the only difference is Barkley was still getting 12 rebounds a game his last couple years, where Boston struggled with rebounding after 08 because KG lost his ability with his athleticism. Malone was a very good but not great rebounder. His rebounding ability probably lasted longer than KG too, but he was never dominant.
Passing Ill give to KG by a little bit. KG was fantastic at keeping everyone moving from up top. He basically ran the offense in Minnesota for stretches. Barkley was more of an inside out guy and was nearly as good in terms of impact but wasn't quite the natural passer KG was. Malone was an idiot sometimes in terms of passing early in his career, but by the time he was getting to the finals I'd say he was basically Barkley's equal. All three are some of the best passers at their position ever.
Defense I'd say is definitely going to KG. He's the best pick and roll defender ever, and one of the best 5 defenders ever in my mind. All the way up to age 34 or 35 I'd say he had an argument for best defender in the league, and he was much better in his late 20s. He could guard all sorts of players, and he kept moving around the court. Malone is definitely second. I'd say he improved at this as his career went on too, though he was always a very very good defender. Barkley had some value as a defender early in his career. Not conventionally, because he always made mistakes and didn't really give a full effort, but he created problems for an offense by creating havoc with steals and blocks, and he could guard most positions.
Overall I'd say Kevin Garnett has a healthy lead at first, I think Barkley is clearly better in his prime, than Malone, but then you have to ask would you want 6 years of Barkleys prime with another 5 or so all star seasons tacked on or a guy who was an all star 17 maybe even 18 years with 14 or more a top ten player in the league. I've actually changed my mind on the subject a lot. They both had equal shots at a championship 93 and 97 for Barkley with maybe 95 and 97, 98 for Malone with maybe 04. I think I'd pick Malone, because if you have 14 years of a top ten player, you're going to have tons of chance at a championship, but really it's a toss up.
Wow that ended up being pretty long....
Oh and I'd say KG is about 15 ever, Barkley and Malone in the 25-30 range.

I started watching ball the season Brad D. retired. So i just missed him. However I do remember him on NBA Jam. He came into the league when Kareem Moses amd Parish were still all stars and left with Shaq Deke and Mourning entering the league.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#159 Joe Marcus Johnson
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B]
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #1/#2/#3 on solid playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-4-5-1 on 45/36/81
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE] don’t know who I blame more. Phoenix for being cheap and foolish or Johnson for being petty and holding a grudge. The Suns should have locked him up along with Nash, Marion and Stoudemire in 2005 and had the best core in the West for the next four years. But they didn't. Johnson went to Atlanta, played on a good but not great team, showed flashes of stardom but ultimately was just a good scorer and all-star level player. Johnson was drafted by the Celtics in 2001 and quickly traded for a guy who played at Kentucky, making it feel like Rick Pitino was still there. In Phoenix, the sharpshooting Johnson showed gradual improvement and in 2004-05 when Steve Nash arrived, the Suns took off. Johnson had the best year of his career averaging 17/5/4 on 46/48/75. He seemed set for life as a spot-up shooter and backup ball handler for the Suns. But he wanted more, he needed respect, so he signed with the Hawks in 2005. In Atlanta he posted the best numbers of his career and played the major role as the Hawks went from 23 to 30 to 37 to 47 to 53 wins in his first five seasons. They made the playoffs five straight years, reaching the second round in 2009, ‘10 and ‘11. Johnson however saw his production drop in each postseason and questions were being raised. From there both Johnson and the Hawks took a step down. Teamed with Josh Smith and Al Horford, the Hawks were good, but not legit contenders. Something needed to change. The attrition began with Johnson in 2012. He moved on to Brooklyn. Last season Johnson had the best postseason of his career at age 32. He averaged 21 ppg on 53/42/84 shooting. Perhaps he’s back in a comfortable role as a complimentary star and not the centerpiece. Time will tell, but with seven all-star selections and an all-NBA nod in 2010 plus a 25-4-4 season under his belt, Johnson is already an all-time NBA great, just not among the greatest.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#158 Baron Walter Louis Davis
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (5)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on Borderline Playoff Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-4-8-2 on 41/32/72
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE]t’s always fun rooting for the underdog and after Baron Davis posted 33 points 14 rebounds and 8 assists as the eighth seeded Warriors upset the top seeded Mavericks in game one of their first round playoff series in 2007, the bandwagon started filling real fast. Dallas had won the West the year before and had the MVP, a 7-foot German Forward, the Warriors hadn't won a playoff series in almost twenty years and barely had a guy above 6’7” in their rotation. After splitting the next two Dallas jumped on Golden State early in game four, went up by double digits even, but after Davis hit a half court buzzer beater to tie the halftime score, it seemed like destiny was stepping in. Davis finished the game with 33-8-4 on 12-17 shooting and the Warriors were on their way to a major upset. Most of you probably remember that as well as I do, fewer are likely to remember the other time Davis carried a team over a superstar to a playoff series win. Five years prior to winning with the Warriors, Davis created a buzz in the final season of Charlotte Hornets basketball. Despite having the home court advantage, when all-star forward Jamal Mashburn was unable to play for the playoffs many thought Orlando would advance easily. Game one was an all-time who wants it less game, and considering that Davis scored the last of his and the Hornets points with 2:30 to play and put them up by four, you’d think they’d have been down 1-0, but they won 80-79. After the Magic took game two they seemed like a lock to steal the series. That set up an all-time early round playoff duel when McGrady and Davis went head to head in a classic third game. A thrilling game came down to a tie with 0.7 seconds to play. Davis came off a screen on a side out of bounds, caught the ball at the top right wing and banked in a three just before the buzzer. It didn’t count though because Bernie Fryer was too busy waving off to realize it should have ended the game. His blown call would not deter Davis and the Hornets though they rolled through overtime and won by ten. Davis finished with 33-14-10 edging out McGrady’s 37-7-5 and follow it up with a game four 28-11-10 to send the Hornets into the second round. That’s why Baron Davis so fascinating. He could have been one of the best, but injuries and poor decision making made him one of the rest. In 2002 and 2007 we saw an elite player. Had he had health and focus and motivation every year, he could have Dwyane Wade or Russell Westbrook. But he was Baron Davis and even that was pretty damn good. [/FONT][/SIZE]
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Joe Johnson is Mr consistent. You know what you're gonna get from him year in and year out.

B. DIDDY is the complete opposite. GSW Diddy vs. Dallas or LA Clippers B Diddy. Charlotte vs. Orlando or NYKs.

Baron Davis was an animal in those playoffs. Warriors were the 8th seed, Mavs 1st seed. That Warriors team completely shit on the Mavs season. Dirk got the MVP, Mavs won the most games in the entire league and than get bounced in the 1st round :oldlol:

GS's crowd was ridiculous.

i looked back at your list in the previous years and John Stockton dropped 20 spots. lets wait and see if he is now out of your top 50.

How is Marion so low???

And ray should definitely be ahead of Reggie.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#194 Louie Dampier
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 11 (8)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] Best player on ABA playoff teams, 3rd Best player on ABA contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-3-6 on 44/36/83
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]M[/SIZE]ore than any other player, Louie Dampier's career was missed by basketball fans because of the ABA. Though he did play three NBA seasons, they were late in his career, into his thirties and as a backup for the San Antonio Spurs. But starting with the league and 1967 and seeing it through it's final season in 1976 Dampier played in 822 ABA games for the Kentucky Colonels. He is the ABA's all-time leader in games, minutes played and three-point field goals. For good measure he is also the ABA's all-time leading scorer and assist man. Dampier played his college ball at Kentucky along with Pat Riley. Both were a part of the 1966 team that lost the Championship game to all-Black Texas Western. Drafted by the Royals in the NBA, Dampier opted to join the new ABA and play in his home state. He would make seven all-star teams, four times he was an all-ABA selection. He averaged as many as 26 points a game, poured in 55 one night including 11 threes, and at age 30, he contributed 18 points and 8 assists a night during the Colonels playoff run to their only Championship.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#193 Michael Howard Finley
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 15 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2 on playoff team/#5 on Championship Team
[B]Prime Averages:[/B] 21-5-4-1 on 45/38/82
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]here seems to be a distinct lack of Michael Finley type players in the league today. Seemingly the perfect piece for a team, he is athletic, efficent can score inside and out, defend and he almost never turns it over. An off guard with his skill set putting up the type of numbers he did would be an all-star and/or all-NBA lock today. However a decade ago Finley couldn't break into the elite group. For Finley his climb to NBA stardom started in Phoenix as a role player, when he signed with Dallas it was to get an opportunity for more playing time. During his very best seasons from 1998 to 2001 he played more minutes than any other NBA player. He made two all-star teams and was regularly receiving minimal MVP votes. He was the first piece to the puzzle in turning the Mavericks franchise around. After he was in place, Dallas drafted Dirk Nowitzki, traded for Juwan Howard, signed Steve Nash and the rest is history. After five consecutive 50-win seasons, but only one conference finals trip, the Mavericks decided to reshape their roster and Finley signed with Texas rival and defending NBA Champion San Antonio. After the Spurs lost to the Mavericks in the 2006 playoffs and watched Dallas advance to the Finals, Finley and his teammates were hungry. Accepting a smaller role as the fifth starter and playing just under 30 minutes per game, Finley brought shooting, defense and that hunger for a title to the table as the Spurs won it all in 2007. [/FONT][/SIZE]
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It doesn't effect the ranking or piece itself but Dallas traded for finley and Nash(obviously in different deals) they didn't sign with dallas

[QUOTE=raiderfan19]It doesn't effect the ranking or piece itself but Dallas traded for finley and Nash(obviously in different deals) they didn't sign with dallas[/QUOTE]

Thank you.

[QUOTE=raiderfan19]How is Marion so low???[/QUOTE]

How much higher would you have him?

The exact rankings aren't real important when you get this high up, more trying to group them with similarly skilled/accomplished players.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#157 Latrell Fontaine Sprewell
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (9)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #1 on bad teams/#2 on playoff teams/#3 on contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 19-4-4-1 on 43/34/80
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE]t

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#155 Arnold D. Risen
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (10)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2 on contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 14/11/2 on 38/70
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]R[/SIZE]isen’s career dates back to 1945 in the NBL. He played three seasons in the league, earned all-league honors in 1947 and came to the NBA with the Royals for the 1948-49 season. A skilled big man with enough toughness for the time and enough grace for the post-shot clock era where he became an effective back-up center playing into his mid-thirties. It was with the Royals in the early NBA days that Risen really made his mark. Led by Bob Davies the Royals were the toughest competition for the juggernaut that was the Minneapolis Lakers and their center George Mikan. Mikan was taller than Risen and outweighed him by at least fifty pounds, but Risen was faster and though he could not stop Mikan, he could make him work on both ends of the court. The Royals lost to the Lakers in 1949 and were upset by the Pistons in 1950, but in 1951 a leg injury to Mikan opened the door for the Royals and they walked right past the Lakers into the NBA Finals. There against the Knicks, Risen played some of the finest basketball of his career. Unlike to gigantic Mikan, the Knicks had a pair on 6’6” centers in Harry Gallatin and Sweetwater Clifton. Risen took advantage. He scored 22 points, grabbed 15 rebounds and dished out 5 assists as the Royals routed the Knicks in game one. Game two more of the same 19 points for Risen, 24 for Davies and another easy Rochester win. Game three: Risen goes for 27 and 17, he’s averaging 23 and 16 for the series and the Royals are one win away from the title. The Knicks battled back valiantly, forced a game seven, but there Rochester was too much. Risen had 24 points and 13 rebounds in the deciding game and Rochester won 79-75.

Risen would average 22 points 16 rebounds and 3 assists for the series, remarkable numbers considering the teams were averaging only 80 ppg. Following the Championship season Risen would make four consecutive all-star teams for Rochester who remained competitive, but never returned to the Finals. In 1955, with the Royals coming off a losing season in the new shot clock era, Risen was sold to the Boston Celtics. After starting for one season, Risen moved to the bench once Bill Russell arrived. As a back-up, he won his second ring when Boston raised the trophy in 1957. He played sparingly in 1958 and after the Celtics lost in the 1958 Finals, Risen retired. They called him stilts for his gangly appearance and seeming inability to gain weight, but Risen was considered an enforcer in the early league. Bob Cousy describes him as “A sweet man with a surprisingly vicious competitive side.”
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#154 Rajon Rondo
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 8 (4)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on contenders/#4 on Champion
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 13-5-10-2 on 49/61
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]M[/SIZE]aybe it takes a guy who sees the world differently to play the game the way Rajon Rondo does. Or maybe Rondo is just another one in the long line of enigmatic personalities which seem to find their way into the NBA more often than you might expect. Basketball is so appealing to many for it’s unique nuances and the delicate balance that characterize it. It is a game on individual and team skill both constantly connected to each other and without understanding the balance and how to thrive within it, it will without discrimination conquer you. The quiet, thoughtful Rondo, who can come off as aloof or in his own world, thrives under such a construct. From the time his career began, thrust into the spotlight in his second year, an unproven entity amongst a hall of fame trio hellbent on a Championship, Rondo has refused to be predictable. It seemed likely that he would fail as point guard in Boston, at least initially. There was much debate about which veteran point guard would be acquired to replace him. But he held on to the reigns of the big Green machine, even when Sam Cassell was brought aboard, and played a crucial role in Boston’s winning of it’s 17th Championship, a full 22 years after the previous banner was raised. From there, with the luxury of having those three great players around, Rondo’s game was given room t grow and he took off.

He went from 11-5 in the title season to 12-8 and an all-defensive second team selection the next year. In the playoffs, without Garnett, Rondo may have been the Celtics best player averaging 17-10-10-3 in a performance that drew comparisons to a young Magic Johnson. Then 14-10 and a first team all-defensive pick in 2010. He made the all-star team and had another outstanding playoffs; 16-6-9-2 en route to the NBA Finals. In 2011 he made his second straight all-star game, set a career high 11.2 assists per game and led the league in steals. 2012 saw Rondo win the assist title at nearly 12 a game, make the all-NBA team and finish eighth in the MVP voting. In the playoffs he demonstrated why, playing hurt and leading the Celtics to the Eastern Conference Finals for the third time in five seasons. 17-7-12-2 and shooting nearly 50% from the field and 70% the line. Best of his career. That’s really the last we’ve seen of Rondo though. Injuries and a transition stage for the Celtics have kept him out of the lineup for almost 100 games the last two seasons. When he returns he will be a key piece, either as trade bait or as the point guard for the Celtics team that hunts for title number eighteen. He is the strangest type of player, team mates love playing with him, but rarely love being around him off the court. He is a leader by example, but not one to say the right thing at the right time very often. His former coach Doc Rivers explains: "Not everyone understand it, but he has a gift, He has vision and feel, not only for what's going on, but for the team. He's a quarterback or great catcher. He has the ability to sense not only that moment, but the plays or stuff we should be running. He just has an incredible basketball IQ. It's like having another coach on the floor."
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[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Thanks, one day. I want to do a real good job though, I don't want to produce bad art. I'd have to stop critiquing everything.

I love seeing so many of you guys from the first thread five years ago popping in to say hello. Wish people like you were around here posting content and comments more often.

Thanks again for the compliment and support and rest assured that until the day you do me the honor of buying my book, all my scraps and half thoughts will be filtered for bull[COLOR="Navy"]s[/COLOR]hit here on ish.[/QUOTE]
Apologies. My own passion project (graphic novel) takes away most of the free time I used to have for posting here more often, especially in your old top 25 position player threads. :cheers:

[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]Baron Davis was an animal in those playoffs. Warriors were the 8th seed, Mavs 1st seed. That Warriors team completely shit on the Mavs season. Dirk got the MVP, Mavs won the most games in the entire league and than get bounced in the 1st round :oldlol:

GS's crowd was ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
That's what happens when you have the worst coach in the nba.

As for how high I'd have Marion goat, hes got to be in the top 100 and at the very least above Ron freaking artest.


Some Shawn Marion career notes. Made more threes than Steve Kerr, Matt bonner and Jose Calderon(this won't be true anymore for Calderon after next year). More rebounds than Larry bird, Dwight howard(this wont be true after next year either) Dave debuscher, bob Lanier and dirk. Top 40(35) all time in rebounds. More steals than Eddie jones, Ron artest and doc rivers. Top 20(17)all time in steals. More blocks than Tyson chandler, Karl Malone or Bob mcadoo. Soon to be top 50 all time(51 needs 20 for 50) Scored more points than Steve Nash, Tiny archibald, Joe Johnson, bob cousy, Chris webber and Kevin mchale. Top 75 all time(75, and jet is 74 and Nash is 76 interestingly) if he stays healthy next year and or plays another year after that, he'll pass some BIG names on the scoring list.

So he's top 20 in steals, top 40 in rebounds, top 50 in blocks and top 75 in scoring but he's only in the 180s all time?

[QUOTE=raiderfan19]That's what happens when you have the worst coach in the nba.

As for how high I'd have Marion goat, hes got to be in the top 100 and at the very least above Ron freaking artest.


Some Shawn Marion career notes. Made more threes than Steve Kerr, Matt bonner and Jose Calderon(this won't be true anymore for Calderon after next year). More rebounds than Larry bird, Dwight howard(this wont be true after next year either) Dave debuscher, bob Lanier and dirk. Top 40(35) all time in rebounds. More steals than Eddie jones, Ron artest and doc rivers. Top 20(17)all time in steals. More blocks than Tyson chandler, Karl Malone or Bob mcadoo. Soon to be top 50 all time(51 needs 20 for 50) Scored more points than Steve Nash, Tiny archibald, Joe Johnson, bob cousy, Chris webber and Kevin mchale. Top 75 all time(75, and jet is 74 and Nash is 76 interestingly) if he stays healthy next year and or plays another year after that, he'll pass some BIG names on the scoring list.

So he's top 20 in steals, top 40 in rebounds, top 50 in blocks and top 75 in scoring but he's only in the 180s all time?[/QUOTE]


It's certainly something to consider. Especially when the information is presented this way.

Of the four factors I consider, Longevity is last behind, Absolute and Extended Peak and Prime Years. However I can say that I did feel like Marion (along with Kenon and Nance, Aguirre and Buck Williams) needed to be up higher after doing these most recent bios from my updated notes.

I have already started regrouping all the players from tier 11-19

I suspect Marion may end around 140 or so...

You would still have him higher, but I wonder if you will change your mind once the rest of the guys around that level are revealed.

Be curious to see what you think as that portion of the list draws nearer. How you stick around and let me know what you think.

Thanks and go Tech!

I think you are the first person who remembers that the raider in my name means red raiders and not Oakland raiders.

I've always seen Marion higher than most because I never thought he was just a Nash creation. Sure the pace helped the numbers but that's been true of alot of guys and he was a 19-11 player 2 years before Nash got there. There just aren't that many people who could have gone 22-12-2-2 with so few turnovers which was his peak along with what should have been all nba defense.

Shawn Marion should not be ranked higher than Mark Aguirre.










.

That seem really low for Rondo to me. Guys who do as much as him in the playoffs deserve a lot more credit than Sprewell or Johnson. Hes averaged 16-7-10 in the playoffs since 09, and has had some all time great games for PGs like his 29-18-13 against cleveland in 10 or 44-8-10 against miami in 12. Guys like that are top 100 to me.

Rondooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

[QUOTE=magnax1]That seem really low for Rondo to me. Guys who do as much as him in the playoffs deserve a lot more credit than Sprewell or Johnson. Hes averaged 16-7-10 in the playoffs since 09, and has had some all time great games for PGs like his 29-18-13 against cleveland in 10 or 44-8-10 against miami in 12. Guys like that are top 100 to me.[/QUOTE]
Rondo is not top 100 yet. He's not up to par with the Billups or Parkers yet. His last 2 seas9ns have been absent basically.

Can't see him in top 100 over guards like even a Terry Porter yet. Yet.

[B]Good shit :applause: :applause: Not saying I agree with all of it, it would be hard to tell exactly also though, but great work man :applause: Looking forward for the full list.[/B]

I agree with Marion. I'd switch him and Peja.

I agree with my two colleagues above, but I'm a Rondo Stan, haha.

When it comes to passing/vision, he's one of the all-timers (also statistically speaking). And he's not too shabby at rebounding and defense at his position either. His 6th gear come playoffs time was already mentioned.

Great thread. Appreciate the work

How exactly is griffin already ahead of Marion? He has one season of being able to create for himself, something Marion admittedly didn't do, but Marion was a much better defender, shooter at least an equivalent rebounder and he did it for a lot longer.