Get this ****ing trade over with already I'm tired of hearing all these rumors
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Get this ****ing trade over with already I'm tired of hearing all these rumors
[QUOTE=DMAVS41].
Not hard...put them both in and it's a fair deal.
Wiggins/Bennett/filler/pick for Love/Martin/Dieng
[/QUOTE]
Except other pieces might need to be given up to get another team involved and take on contracts? Love/Martin/Deing is like 23 mill. Wiggins/Bennet is like 10-11? What other fillers can they include to get a deal done, not really sure what Clevelands cap situation/contracts look like.
I'm not a cap genius but seems like a 3rd team is going to really need to help them out if they want to get a deal like the one you posted done. Guess teams do stuff for a 2nd round pick all the time but nobody from the East will be rushing out to get that deal done.
[QUOTE]Yea...you just don't get team building.[/QUOTE]
You...just dont know as much as you think you do.
And to be fair none of us do on issues like how a team comes together long term.
Ive been reading people make dumb complaints like this that amount to nothing for a long time.
Building a great team historically is about the centerpieces. The rest falls into line. You talking about signing largely irrelevant pieces who wont make a significant bottom line difference.
The Cavs go from a low 30 win team...add Lebron....and Kevin Love...
You are worried about how many Ike Diogus you can add to play 8 minutes off the bench.
Kevin Martin....is an underpaid extremly high end role player in a league where people put up 16/6 and get max deals.
JJ is an expiring contract in a league that kills for them. He will be gone by midseason or kept to reduce the cap hit the next summer.
The rest....it really really really doesnt matter.
I assure you..you do not have more information on the middling role players in history and how great teams come together than I do.
You are not seeing anything anyone else cant.
What you are doing is what people on forums do. Making a big deal out of shit that doesnt matter.
Did the Heat have their team complete in 2011? No.
They make 4 finals and win 2 rings?
Yes.
throwing an immense amount of talent at the wall....really does work...when the talent fits together and you play in a conference that offers little resistance.
Love/Kyrie/Lebron fit together like few trios in NBA history would.
The team is going to win at least...52 games...likely 55-60...potentially more.
Title?
Who knows?
The spurs didnt even make the finals for 6 years and didnt win for 7 years and people hold them up as the team building ideal.
The goal is a team that has what it needs to play with anyone on any given night and make a fight of every series.
Deal gets done....that mission is accomplished.
Even if they have to wait and sign a 9th man nobody wants next year instead of next month.
History is full of great teams built off immense top of the lineup talent and guys nobody would even know if they didnt play on those teams.
Teams like the spurs come along much less often. How many we talking about?
Late 70s sonics....early 70s Knicks....mid 2000s Pistons?
Immense talent + some guys has never been in as good a position to work as its been in this leagues east.
Derrick Rose going to at least 2012 form and Wade maybe going to 2011 level is probably all that keeps the Cavs from moonwalking to the finals where anything can happen...and you are acting like the trade would be a disaster.
This goes down in the way you are so scared of....season starts the team murders the east on the way to 58 wins...they win the title or they dont.
And if they dont it wont make it bad team building any more than the Spurs losing in 2013 made their way wrong.
All it will mean is many teams can win in any given season.
But one will.
Get your team in position to make a run at it...
You did your job as a team builder.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]^^^You seem incredibly high on Dieng. I haven't exactly studied him all that closely. I know he had a great 15-game run while Pek went down, but he also averaged just 13 minutes per game last season.
I'm still a bit skeptical that he's enough to turn a horrendous trade for the Cavs into a good one.[/QUOTE]
Well if the trade is going to happen you might as well get a promising young center thrown in.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You...just dont know as much as you think you do.
[/QUOTE]
Nah, it's that you don't get it.
You aren't looking at the specific roster you are building.
Martin is a high end bench player on certain teams. On a team that has horrible guard defense and weak defense at pf and potentially weak defense at center? He's not a high end anything...he's eating up valuable money that is better spent elsewhere.
Things like that...that you seem incapable of understanding...are the point.
And yet again you assume that the Cavs can't do anything else.
You make it sound like they are stuck with Love or nothing. You could not be more wrong. The Cavs could wait. They could see how this team looks. They could make smaller moves and feast on teams looking to shed players for young assets/picks.
The entire league is open to them....
And this shit does matter. Winning the title is really ****ing hard....and winning the title with minus defenders at nearly every position other than small forward (again...aging Lebron that doesn't want to have to use up a ton of energy here)...isn't winning shit.
58 wins in a horrid conference? Sure...then it's a loss in the conference finals...or finals.
Also, please stop comparing prime Wade to what the Cavs would have. Also, Bosh made it work because he can play center. Love can't. Team building matters here.
And I'm not sure you've actually watched Kyrie play. He actually doesn't fit that well next to Lebron. This just makes me think you really don't know what you seem so certain of. Kyrie is a shit defender and likes the ball in his hands. He's not a great spot up shooter and he straight up has sucked on defense to date in his career.
Lebron and Love fit perfectly together...Kyrie does not.
I'm not say the Cavs would be bad or something...just that if they are willing to move that much. They need to do better and address actual needs. Maybe I'm hugely under-rating Love...and I'll eat crow if this goes down and they run off a dynasty without getting better defensively in the process. But I find it hard to believe that someone like you (who isn't that high on Love to begin with iirc) would be in favor of a deal like this that leaves gaping holes on the roster that are going to be tough to plug given the circumstances.
Shit...I'd rather go get Larry Sanders and Middelton...with some assets the Cavs have than gut the team for Love.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Nah, it's that you don't get it.
You aren't looking at the specific roster you are building.
Martin is a high end bench player on certain teams. On a team that has horrible guard defense and weak defense at pf and potentially weak defense at center? He's not a high end anything...he's eating up valuable money that is better spent elsewhere.
Things like that...that you seem incapable of understanding...are the point.
And yet again you assume that the Cavs can't do anything else.
You make it sound like they are stuck with Love or nothing. You could not be more wrong. The Cavs could wait. They could see how this team looks. They could make smaller moves and feast on teams looking to shed players for young assets/picks.
The entire league is open to them....
And this shit does matter. Winning the title is really ****ing hard....and winning the title with minus defenders at nearly every position other than small forward (again...aging Lebron that doesn't want to have to use up a ton of energy here)...isn't winning shit.
58 wins in a horrid conference? Sure...then it's a loss in the conference finals...or finals.
Also, please stop comparing prime Wade to what the Cavs would have. Also, Bosh made it work because he can play center. Love can't. Team building matters here.
And I'm not sure you've actually watched Kyrie play. He actually doesn't fit that well next to Lebron. This just makes me think you really don't know what you seem so certain of. Kyrie is a shit defender and likes the ball in his hands. He's not a great spot up shooter and he straight up has sucked on defense to date in his career.
Lebron and Love fit perfectly together...Kyrie does not.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
KBlaze888555 :facepalm
[QUOTE=hawksdogsbraves]Well if the trade is going to happen you might as well get a promising young center thrown in.[/QUOTE]
It would cushion the blow but I'm certainly not going to be doing cartwheels. Dieng is also pretty old for a second-year player... 24.
What you dont seem to understand...which is my point....
Is that the worst case scenerio(of course barring injury) is an incredible team that fails to win the title.
When that is your worst case...nothing you did was disastrous or worthy of your front office being called out.
The Cavs from what I can see have done a good job especially looking forward at their cap situation.
Youre pretty much watching someone hit the powerball the week after its 500 million and someone else won the big one and acting like it was a bad outcome.
"Only" getting 90 million is not failing. And vastly improving your team isnt either...even if you *gasp* dont win the title every year.
The options arent...perfection...and failure,.
Success...is the team contending for and possibly winning a title.
The rest is up to the basketball gods.
You do all this hating on what that team could be the right 2 ankles roll(Say...Noah and Westbrook) they could go 16-3 in the playoffs.
All you can do is put your team in position to fight and hope you ride out the storm better than the 4-5 others always in contention.
This trade would do that.
Making it a good trade.
Looking more and more like the Cavs are NOT trading Wiggins for Love, which as already stated, is the smart move for the long term.
"Trade wiggins now so that Bron is happy and won't leave!" - cried the eager beaver.
The Cavs front office doesn't give a F'k what Bron wants. He burned them once, and they sure as hell won't put themselves in position to get burned again, and are therefore covering their bases very well.
If he wants to stay, so be it. But the Cavs aren't banking on his word, and are (as they should) preparing themselves for anything.
If you're wondering what this strategy is called, it's called not being a dumb ass.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]What you dont seem to understand...which is my point....
Is that the worst case scenerio(of course barring injury) is an incredible team that fails to win the title.
When that is your worst case...nothing you did was disastrous or worthy of your front office being called out.
The Cavs from what I can see have done a good job especially looking forward at their cap situation.
Youre pretty much watching someone hit the powerball the week after its 500 million and someone else won the big one and acting like it was a bad outcome.
"Only" getting 90 million is not failing. And vastly improving your team isnt either...even if you *gasp* dont win the title every year.
The options arent...perfection...and failure,.
Success...is the team contending for and possibly winning a title.
The rest is up to the basketball gods.
You do all this hating on what that team could be the right 2 ankles roll(Say...Noah and Westbrook) they could go 16-3 in the playoffs.
All you can do is put your team in position to fight and hope you ride out the storm better than the 4-5 others always in contention.
This trade would do that.
Making it a good trade.[/QUOTE]
Dude...they are already in that position.
I could say that exact same thing if the Cavs trade for Larry Sanders and Middelton with Waiters and a pick.
Worst case scenario is you have an incredible team that fails to win the title. This trade does that.
Irving/Delladova
Wiggins/Allen
Lebron/Miller/Middelton
Thompson/Bennett
Sanders/Andy/Haywood
They'd have all their flexibility, keep the Haywood contract, actually address the huge need of defense at guard and center. And they potentially have a great stretch 4 nice rebounder in Bennett on the roster.
That isn't an incredible team with a bright future that worst case scenario is going to rape the East and fail to win the title over the coming years?
If Kevin Love was prime Dirk or KG or Duncan. I'd agree with you...but I'm assuming you don't think that Love is that.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]What you dont seem to understand...which is my point....
[B]Is that the worst case scenerio(of course barring injury) is an incredible team that fails to win the title.[/B]
When that is your worst case...nothing you did was disastrous or worthy of your front office being called out.
The Cavs from what I can see have done a good job especially looking forward at their cap situation.
Youre pretty much watching someone hit the powerball the week after its 500 million and someone else won the big one and acting like it was a bad outcome.
"Only" getting 90 million is not failing. And vastly improving your team isnt either...even if you *gasp* dont win the title every year.
The options arent...perfection...and failure,.
Success...is the team contending for and possibly winning a title.
The rest is up to the basketball gods.
You do all this hating on what that team could be the right 2 ankles roll(Say...Noah and Westbrook) they could go 16-3 in the playoffs.
All you can do is put your team in position to fight and hope you ride out the storm better than the 4-5 others always in contention.
This trade would do that.
Making it a good trade.[/QUOTE]
The worst case scenario is actually Love staying for a year and then signing elsewhere. From everything I've heard, his trade will not include an immediate extension -- ala Harden and Melo -- and possibly may not even include his opting in for 2015-16.
I don't think people are looking at Love's contractual situation nearly closely enough. It's just assumed that if we trade for him, he's going to be here a long time. That's never something that comes with a guarantee when a guy has one year left on his deal. I don't care who he's playing with or where it's happening, let alone in Cleveland (I say that as a happy resident of Greater Cleveland).
Unless he actually puts pen to paper with an extension or -- at the very least -- an opt-in for another year, there is a real risk that we lose him next year. There are so many variables, some in our control and some not. It could be a team thing or a coaching thing or a city/location thing or something that some other "prime" market does in the next 365 days that blows him away. We just don't know.
Not absolutely knowing he's going to be here beyond one season and giving up a prospect like Andrew Wiggins? I just don't understand it. Let alone all of the other stuff that is being reported as throw-ins on the deal.
[QUOTE=LBJFTW][B]Looking more and more like the Cavs are NOT trading Wiggins for Love, which as already stated, is the smart move for the long term.[/B]
"Trade wiggins now so that Bron is happy and won't leave!" - cried the eager beaver.
The Cavs front office doesn't give a F'k what Bron wants. He burned them once, and they sure as hell won't put themselves in position to get burned again, and are therefore covering their bases very well.
If he wants to stay, so be it. But the Cavs aren't banking on his word, and are (as they should) preparing themselves for anything.
If you're wondering what this strategy is called, it's called not being a dumb ass.[/QUOTE]
I wish what you're saying was true. I don't believe it is, unfortunately.
Rape the east? As a worst case? No.
Id have to see what Wiggins is first. He could be Darius Miles(similar athletes...Wiggins a better shooter...Miles a better ball handler and passer...both potentially great defenders...Miles never got there).
He could be Tmac.
If hes Tmac its a bit of redundancy with even an aging Lebron. But so was Wade.
Who knows. All depends on him.
We know what Love is. A young HOF player who I wouldnt want as my franchise player....but would be among the best #3s...in the history of the sport.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]The worst case scenario is actually Love staying for a year and then signing elsewhere. From everything I've heard, his trade will not include an immediate extension -- ala Harden and Melo -- and possibly may not even include his opting in for 2015-16.
I don't think people are looking at Love's contractual situation nearly closely enough. It's just assumed that if we trade for him, he's going to be here a long time. That's never something that comes with a guarantee when a guy has one year left on his deal. I don't care who he's playing with or where it's happening, let alone in Cleveland (I say that as a happy resident of Greater Cleveland).
Unless he actually puts pen to paper with an extension or -- at the very least -- an opt-in for another year, there is a real risk that we lose him next year. There are so many variables, some in our control and some not. It could be a team thing or a coaching thing or a city/location thing or something that some other "prime" market does in the next 365 days that blows him away. We just don't know.
Not absolutely knowing he's going to be here beyond one season and giving up a prospect like Andrew Wiggins? I just don't understand it. Let alone all of the other stuff that is being reported as throw-ins on the deal.[/QUOTE]
I think we would all agree that trading for Love without him at least giving you strong indications he would resign would be questionable.
Not being near the guy I cant speak on that. I will just assume the cavs arent that stupid.
Is that not an assumption you are working from? could they...be so stupid?
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Rape the east? As a worst case? No.
Id have to see what Wiggins is first. He could be Darius Miles(similar athletes...Wiggins a better shooter...Miles a better ball handler and passer...both potentially great defenders...Miles never got there).
He could be Tmac.
If hes Tmac its a bit of redundancy with even an aging Lebron. But so was Wade.
Who knows. All depends on him.
We know what Love is. A young HOF player who I wouldnt want as my franchise player....but would be among the best #3s...in the history of the sport.[/QUOTE]
If Wiggins is Kawhi Leonard...that team rapes the East and fails to win over the coming years as the worst case scenario.
I'm still trying to understand how a team with Thompson/Love/Old Andy as it's bigs with horrible guard defense...and an aging Lebron that clearly does not want to go all out defensively anymore...is winning anything.
Where would the team you are building rank defensively? Like bottom 10 in league unless Lebron plays 40 minutes a game and goes all out on defense?
What do you think the current Cavs with Larry Sanders and a sharp shooting forward tweener in Middelton would finish while keeping Wiggins and Bennett? You really think they aren't contending in the East? That they aren't winning 50 plus games with ease?
If you are willing to give up year 1 like you said...why not do that and actually find out what you have?
I mean...this team as currently constructed likely can't win the title, but they'd finish top 3 in conference and be live to advance to the finals because of how shitty the conference is.
So I don't see the risk you keep talking about.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]What you dont seem to understand...which is my point....
Is that the worst case scenerio(of course barring injury) is an incredible team that fails to win the title.
When that is your worst case...nothing you did was disastrous or worthy of your front office being called out.
The Cavs from what I can see have done a good job especially looking forward at their cap situation.
Youre pretty much watching someone hit the powerball the week after its 500 million and someone else won the big one and acting like it was a bad outcome.
"Only" getting 90 million is not failing. And vastly improving your team isnt either...even if you *gasp* dont win the title every year.
The options arent...perfection...and failure,.
Success...is the team contending for and possibly winning a title.
The rest is up to the basketball gods.
You do all this hating on what that team could be the right 2 ankles roll(Say...Noah and Westbrook) they could go 16-3 in the playoffs.
All you can do is put your team in position to fight and hope you ride out the storm better than the 4-5 others always in contention.
This trade would do that.
Making it a good trade.[/QUOTE]
true but...
nobody wants realism on ISH
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]true but...
nobody wants realism on ISH[/QUOTE]
the problem with kblaze...and perhaps you (not sure) is that there are other ways to accomplish exactly what he is saying.
while not giving up 20% of what the Cavs are reportedly giving up to get Love.
That is the big point that needs to be heard.
This Cavs team is currently loaded not only with potential, but with quality players in a shit conference. If the standard is just have an incredible team that fails to win the title...
The Cavs can accomplish that in so many other ways while also keeping their flexibility wide open and actually find out what they really have in some of these young guys
And I'm for Wiggins being traded for Love...I'm just not for gutting the entire ****ing team of all 3 first rounders, Haywood, 6 million in cap relief, taking back Martin...not getting Dieng...etc.
That is just absurd.
And it wouldn't mind it as much if the Cavs had different players. I mean...if the Cavs had Marc Gasol/Klay Thompson instead of Kyrie/Waiters/Thompson....okay...then I'd gut the team for Love.
But the defense is a real problem from a basketball standpoint.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I think we would all agree that trading for Love without him at least giving you [B]strong indications[/B] he would resign would be questionable.
Not being near the guy I cant speak on that. I will just assume the cavs arent that stupid.
Is that not an assumption you are working from? could they...be so stupid?[/QUOTE]
I need more than strong indications. I'm pretty sure the Lakers were extremely confident -- maybe to a fault -- that when they made the trade for Dwight Howard, he was going to be a Laker for a long time. Different circumstances, obviously, but if you're making a trade without a guarantee -- with his pen, not with his mouth -- that he's going to be there longer than a year, said organization may find itself putting up billboards like this one a year later...
[IMG]https://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusnbaexperts/Straight-to-the-point.-Photo-via-@Lakers.jpg[/IMG]
I'm really not interested in his word. I want him to pick up that option [B]at the very least[/B]. Carlos Boozer completely burned us a decade ago after giving us 'strong indications' that by not picking up his team option, he'd re-sign here.
And, we weren't potentially giving up a talent like Andrew Wiggins back then. Pen to paper is the only guarantee I would accept if they want to discuss Wiggins. And, again... I've heard he won't be extending immediately anywhere and that he plans to go forward with his free agency next year regardless of where he's traded.
That is an absolutely huge factor, here.
Dieng is nobody till proven otherwise, Martin is a good player on a good deal, and picks after the top 25 range gets you like 4 starters the last 5 years none of them special players. though one of them did just get 15 million to be Dirks Kevin Martin.
Ive not seen a better example of making a mountain out of a mole hill in some time.
This trade goes down nothing you mentioned will ever so much as be a footnote in history and they wont win or lose based on any of them being included or not.
And im not ranking a teams defense ive never seen. lebron aside the 2010 Cavs got 10 starts from anyone id call a good defender. Go look at the 09 Cavs roster. #1 defense.
You seeing a bunch of defensive juggernauts?
Good defenses are mostly built off coaching.
Im not prepared to say the Cavs new coach cant coach a defense.
I suspect Thibs given the Cavs assumed roster would not have a bottom 10 defense.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]I need more than strong indications. I'm pretty sure the Lakers were extremely confident -- maybe to a fault -- that when they made the trade for Dwight Howard, he was going to be a Laker for a long time. Different circumstances, obviously, but if you're making a trade without a guarantee -- with his pen, not with his mouth -- that he's going to be there longer than a year, said organization may find itself putting up billboards like this one a year later...
[IMG]https://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusnbaexperts/Straight-to-the-point.-Photo-via-@Lakers.jpg[/IMG]
I'm really not interested in his word. I want him to pick up that option [B]at the very least[/B]. Carlos Boozer completely burned us a decade ago after giving us 'strong indications' that by not picking up his team option, he'd re-sign here.
And, we weren't potentially giving up a talent like Andrew Wiggins back then. Pen to paper is the only guarantee I would accept if they want to discuss Wiggins. And, again... I've heard he won't be extending immediately anywhere and that he plans to go forward with his free agency next year regardless of where he's traded.
That is an absolutely huge factor, here.[/QUOTE]
I've avoided using this as part of my argument because it feels a bit like cheating, but if we are going to talk worst case scenario stuff.
Well...worst case scenario is that Love and Lebron dont' get along...or Love hates living in Cleveland...they flame out in the playoffs in year 1 and Love says he's out.
Just another reason you don't make a ****ing terrible trade when you don't have to.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Dieng is nobody till proven otherwise, Martin is a good player on a good deal, and picks after the top 25 range gets you like 4 starters the last 5 years none of them special players. though one of them did just get 15 million to be Dirks Kevin Martin.
Ive not seen a better example of making a mountain out of a mole hill in some time.
This trade goes down nothing you mentioned will ever so much as be a footnote in history and they wont win or lose based on any of them being included or not.
And im not ranking a teams defense ive never seen. lebron aside the 2010 Cavs got 10 starts from anyone id call a good defender. Go look at the 09 Cavs roster. #1 defense.
You seeing a bunch of defensive juggernauts?
Good defenses are mostly built off coaching.
Im not prepared to say the Cavs new coach cant coach a defense.
I suspect Thibs given the Cavs assumed roster would not have a bottom 10 defense.[/QUOTE]
You can't ignore what players you have on a team. I know you are in favor of just throwing talent at the wall and hoping it sticks, but ugh...Irving, Martin, Waiters at guard? Love, Andy, Thompson as bigs? That is not good team building...
Those picks and cap flexibility does matter. Again, you keep comparing this to the Heat.
Irving does not sniff prime Wade. Love, does not sniff Bosh on versatility for defense.
See. The thing that apparently secretly made the Heat work was that they could go small with Bosh at center and still be elite defensively because Wade and Lebron were just that good on defense.
Lebron isn't gonna do that consistently anymore...they don't have a guard half as good as Wade defensively...and they can't go small with Love at center consistently.
Again...everything you have said can be accomplished by not giving up much at all.
Your standard is absurdly low;
"have an incredible team and fail to win the title"
Again...you can do that in so many other ways while actually seeing what you have. What if Bennett is good enough to play real minutes as the stretch 4 next to Lebron and they make a move for an elite defensive center...and they keep Wiggins and let him develop next to Kyrie, Allen, and Miller?
If Love was kg, dirk, and duncan...then you do it. He's not...and you don't have the proper team either...so you don't give up everything for him.
So when the Cavs lose in the playoffs because of defense...nobody will mention it? LOL...just no.
Both Cavs and Wolves sources haven't heard anything about Wiggins being on the table. I highly doubt he's getting traded. Love trade really looks like a deadline deal to me, depending on Wiggins' value/development and Minnesota's situation.
Way I see it is Cavs need to get other teams involved. Trade Waiters for Thad then
Thad Young + Bennett + Thompson + Thomas + Lucas III + 3 first round picks for Kevin Love, Kevin Martin and JJ Barea.
Thompson to Charlorte for Henderson + picks.
Thats it. Im a genius
Once you assume Wiggins and Bennett are in it...there is nothing else worthy of being called "everything".
You have us on here talking about Georgui ****ing Deing, being saddled with a 4.5 million dollar expiring deal, and losing out on picks likely to result in Reggie Bullock, Livio Jean-Charles, and Christian Eyenga.
You get lucky now and then? sure.
Not likely enough to pass up on a deal that makes your floor...contention.
But you seem stuck on discussing the cash considerations, overseas prospects that never develop, and parking lots that get tossed into nba deals to make money work. Feel free.
I'll leave you with this....
History will remember this deal as "Kevin Love for andrew wiggins Anthony Bennet and filler". And thats assuming Bennett is ever anything worth remembering. Which he may....but we dont know.
You wanna type all night about 10th men....enjoy.
So...it's, not have the full team in year 1...and we are cool with that.
But not if the Cavs make a small move that vastly improves their interior defense and they get to see what Wiggins and Bennett really have to offer?
When the worst case scenario, barring injury, is have a team that wins 50 plus and makes the conference finals...while finding out a lot about what you have.
I just don't see the risk/reward there at all if we are good with tossing out year 1.
Not like Wiggins won't be hugely valuable as a trade piece even if he isn't great right away.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Once you assume Wiggins and Bennett are in it...there is nothing else worthy of being called "everything".
You have us on here talking about Georgui ****ing Deing, being saddled with a 4.5 million dollar expiring deal, and losing out on picks likely to result in Reggie Bullock, Livio Jean-Charles, and Christian Eyenga.
You get lucky now and then? sure.
Not likely enough to pass up on a deal that makes your floor...contention.
But you seem stuck on discussing the cash considerations, overseas prospects that never develop, and parking lots that get tossed into nba deals to make money work. Feel free.
I'll leave you with this....
History will remember this deal as "Kevin Love for andrew wiggins Anthony Bennet and filler". And thats assuming Bennett is ever anything worth remembering. Which he may....but we dont know.
You wanna type all night about 10th men....enjoy.[/QUOTE]
sigh...you haven't heard a word I've said I guess.
THE CAVS CAN MAKE OTHER DEALS! IT'S NOT TRADE FOR LOVE OR NOTHING!
you want to pretend that there is a gun to the Cavs heads to either do the Love deal or never move any of there other players ever....enjoy.
You keep grading this on...either do the Love trade or nothing. That is poisoning the well so to speak. that isn't reality. if you want to debate this on either do the deal or do nothing. then lets do that. i don't know where i'd fall, but I'd be a whole lost closer to your side than I am currently if you gave me only two options. that just isn't reality...so I don't see the point of all your arguments.
also, you continue to ignore the cost of things. it's not absorbing the 4.5 million dollar deal...it's yet another asset it is going to cost to facilitate this shit. assets matter. the nuggets just got afflalo for fournier and the 56th pick iirc. Afflalo, I guess a totally irrelevant player in your opinion...even though you went on with me about how the Magic shouldn't trade him last year...LOL...that reminds me of how ****ing idiotic you were about that team building example. How did keeping Afflalo work out for the the Magic? Fournier and a 2nd rounder by holding on to him past his peak trade value...while needlessly adding wins to a team looking to get the best pick possible. good call there though. LOL
anyway...a guy like afflalo can swing titles. you put afflalo on the thunder in place of fisher/thabo? I think they win the title last year. these margins are slim. the kind of assets i'm talking about actually really do matter.
[B]FYI...here is what you said about AA;
Hes 28...and he just turned 28 in October so its not like hes even near 29.
Hes putting up 23/5/4 on great shooting overall and from 3.
Hes only making 7.7, 7.7, and 7.9 now and the next 3 years.
Why get rid of him at all? Is 28 too old for a rebuilding team?
Hes the age Kobe was in 2006.
People want youth so bad sometimes they just forget that guys are good players now and are likely to be for some time. I just read this in another topic about MCW...[/B]
The bold is why I don't think you understand team building all that well. Your take just doesn't make any sense...and what I was trying to warn you about actually happened. The Magic missed out on a top 3 pick in large part because they didn't go full on tank mode...and they'd held onto Afflalo too long and killed his trade value. Realized they had to trade him because he had no future on the team...and got fournier and a 56 pick back. Your strategy there could not have been worse.
So I guess I don't see how your thinking on this stuff ever makes much sense. You do it my way and they likely get a top 3 pick...and a better young asset and a first rounder. Embid vs Gordon...ROFL...franchise changing shit potentially.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Once you assume Wiggins and Bennett are in it...there is nothing else worthy of being called "everything".
You have us on here talking about Georgui ****ing Deing, being saddled with a 4.5 million dollar expiring deal, [B]and losing out on picks likely to result in Reggie Bullock, Livio Jean-Charles, and Christian Eyenga.[/B]
You get lucky now and then? sure.
Not likely enough to pass up on a deal that makes your floor...contention.
But you seem stuck on discussing the cash considerations, overseas prospects that never develop, and parking lots that get tossed into nba deals to make money work. Feel free.
I'll leave you with this....
History will remember this deal as "Kevin Love for andrew wiggins Anthony Bennet and filler". And thats assuming Bennett is ever anything worth remembering. Which he may....but we dont know.
You wanna type all night about 10th men....enjoy.[/QUOTE]
Eyenga was the 30th overall pick. I don't see why you're assuming the potential picks in the deal will be that low. The Cavs have three potential first round picks for next year... their own, the Heat's pick (top 10 protected) and the Grizz's pick (top 5 protected).
Assuming this Cavs' team is as good as some think it could be with Love, that may be a pick in the late-20s. But, are you so certain that Miami is going to be picking so low with Wade's current condition? Yeah, they still have Bosh and a decent supporting cast, but I could easily see that being a pick in the 13-25 range depending on how they work without James.
Memphis is another pick that is likely to be somewhere in the middle of the round, not at the very end.
There's a huge difference between picking 15th or even 20th and 30th overall. Those aren't assets you just toss away with little regard, especially in a deal that already includes Andrew Wiggins. It isn't just about what player those picks might yield you, either... If they don't just haphazardly toss them into this trade, they could be used in other moves down the road.
It is always wise to keep as many assets as you can, especially for a team that is going to have some very serious cap limitations in the not too distant future.
I have to say... this is starting to get interesting. Multiple sources are now saying Andrew Wiggins is not a part of any package offered by the Cavs for Love.
Cleveland radio personality:
Tony Rizzo @TheRealTRizzo 16m
CAVS contend they have NEVER offered Wiggins in a proposed trade to T-Wolves! All that false info coming from Minnesota.
Cavs beat-writer:
Sam Amico @SamAmicoFSO 2h
Continue to hear, despite Andrew Wiggins' name likely coming up in talks, Cavs have not offered him in any trade proposal.
Stay tuned.
This deal is done. Will be leaked before the 30 day window.
RBA and this MAV dude won't believe the rumors.
Cavs/Wolves make it official in 30 days.
Cavs go on to do great things.
Wolves will flounder behind an overrated Wiggins who can't shoot, pass, or defend.
PB will laugh his ass off and bump many threads in the process. :oldlol:
All this angst about trading one of the most overrated rookies in league history for a 20/10 big is absolutely appalling. :roll:
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]I have to say... this is starting to get interesting. Multiple sources are now saying Andrew Wiggins is not a part of any package offered by the Cavs for Love.
Cleveland radio personality:
Tony Rizzo @TheRealTRizzo 16m
CAVS contend they have NEVER offered Wiggins in a proposed trade to T-Wolves! All that false info coming from Minnesota.
Cavs beat-writer:
Sam Amico @SamAmicoFSO 2h
Continue to hear, despite Andrew Wiggins' name likely coming up in talks, Cavs have not offered him in any trade proposal.
Stay tuned.[/QUOTE]
Woj and Rizzo himself have said Cavs have included Wiggins in talks.
Keep grasping @ straws
[QUOTE=PleezeBelieve]This deal is done. Will be leaked before the 30 day window.
RBA and this MAV dude won't believe the rumors.
Cavs/Wolves make it official in 30 days.
Cavs go on to do great things.
Wolves will flounder behind an overrated Wiggins who can't shoot, pass, or defend.
[B]PB will laugh his ass off and bump many threads in the process.[/B] :oldlol:
All this angst about trading one of the most overrated rookies in league history for a 20/10 big is absolutely appalling. :roll:[/QUOTE]
You don't want to get into a thread-bumping contest. I distinctly remember you saying Kyrie Irving wouldn't amount to anything. Now apparently he's going to be a key cog on a championship roster?
Yes, threads shall be bumped indeed if that were to happen.
[QUOTE=PleezeBelieve]Woj and Rizzo himself have said Cavs have included Wiggins in talks.
Keep grasping @ straws[/QUOTE]
Woj said "according to sources." Those sources could have been from the Timberwolves, who are apparently leaking like busted faucets at the moment. And, Rizzo is saying right now that the Cavs have denied any and all Wiggins reports. That's his latest take.
On Aaron I dont even know what you think has happened. the Magic won like 22 games and the team that got the #1 pick won 30 something. As I told you then its a crapshoot. You are a 20 something win team...you dont need to worry about getting worse. They could have won MORE games and walked away with #1. I dont concern myself with playing for lottery balls and I never have.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]You don't want to get into a thread-bumping contest. I distinctly remember you saying Kyrie Irving wouldn't amount to anything. Now apparently he's going to be a key cog on a championship roster?
Yes, threads shall be bumped indeed if that were to happen.[/QUOTE]
I said he was overrated compared to his hype which gets brought up daily on ISH. I never said he was garbage. Its basically the same thing I'm saying about Wiggins.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]On Aaron I dont even know what you think has happened. the Magic won like 22 games and the team that got the #1 pick won 30 something. As I told you then its a crapshoot. You are a 20 something win team...you dont need to worry about getting worse. They could have won MORE games and walked away with #1. I dont concern myself with playing for lottery balls and I never have.[/QUOTE]
It's your strategy dude. It was horrible.
Why keep Affllalo when his trade value was at it's peak? It's not a crap shoot actually. They missed out on having the 3rd pick by 4 wins. Afflalo had an EWA of 7.
Are you really going to defend your position? How can you not just admit you were wrong.
The Magic did your strategy essentially and they ended up with Fournier and a 2nd rounder...
If you can't admit you were wrong there...I give up.
The Magic added needless wins and didn't move Afflalo at his peak. It is very conceivable that the Magic would have had the 3rd pick, a young asset or two, and an extra first rounder if they had moved him when they should have.
Fournier and a 2nd rounder while hurting your draft pick with a clear drop after the top 3. Great call...I won't you calling the shots for my team. Lets keep Afflalo and drive up his value...and either be forced to overpay him or essentially let him walk...or keep him so he only has 1 year left and nobody really is gonna offer much for a 1 year rental before he gets paid...in large part due to his stats on a bad Magic team that was trying to be horrid.
Ugh...worst strategy possible.
This AA thing is perfect to illustrate my points. You couldn't see the obvious. The Magic needed to move him because they didn't want to deal with paying him this coming off season. A smart team builder identifies that before last year...least AA play and get great numbers early on...and then flips him to a contender that gets him for 2 full playoffs. You didn't see that...and if you had been i charge of the magic. they are in a bad spot off of that action.
just like you aren't seeing that this cavs team doesn't have to trade for love...and if they gutted the entire team like you are saying...they will be ****ed on defense for at least the short term.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Woj said "according to sources." Those sources could have been from the Timberwolves, who are apparently leaking like busted faucets at the moment. And, Rizzo is saying right now that the Cavs have denied any and all Wiggins reports. That's his latest take.[/QUOTE]
Rizzo said the day LeBron signed that Wiggins was being included in talks by the Cavs. He's contradicting his own report.
Whatever.
Wiggins is in the deal.
[QUOTE=PleezeBelieve]I said he was overrated compared to his hype which gets brought up daily on ISH. I never said he was garbage. Its basically the same thing I'm saying about Wiggins.[/QUOTE]
I predict you're going to be all over his ball sack this season. And, he wasn't even that hyped. There was a legitimate back-and-forth over whom the Cavs should take, Irving or Derrick freaking Williams.
It took people months to realize how ridiculous he was out of the gates in his rookie season.
How was that "hyped"? If anything, he was underrated in retrospect prior to that draft. The hype didn't really start until his second season.
So....not simply giving up is the wrong way to go...yet a bad team that didnt simply give up won 33 games and got the #1 pick? Coincidentally...to pair him with anothr #1 pick they got from the Clippers who won 32 games. The very year after the Bulls won 33 games...and got #1. And hell if the Blazers didnt get #1 winning 32 games the year before that.
Tanking works when it works. It doesnt when it doesnt. Its the nature of the beast.
Throwing your season isnt proven effective when it works any more than not throwing it and bailing out is proven to work when it gets you 7 of the last 10 lottery winners.
The lottery is luck. Nothing more. I dont lean towards gutting an already bad roster in the hopes you get ____. Especially not when you are gonna win 20 something games anyway.
You get a top pick. How high....basketball gods again.
They keep busy.
Hopefully Wiggins isn't traded. I really wanna see LeBron and Wiggins together.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]So....not simply giving up is the wrong way to go...yet a bad team that didnt simply give up won 33 games and got the #1 pick? Coincidentally...to pair him with anothr #1 pick they got from the Clippers who won 32 games. The very year after the Bulls won 33 games...and got #1. And hell if the Blazers didnt get #1 winning 32 games the year before that.
Tanking works when it works. It doesnt when it doesnt. Its the nature of the beast.
Throwing your season isnt proven effective when it works any more than not throwing it and bailing out is proven to work when it gets you 7 of the last 10 lottery winners.
The lottery is luck. Nothing more. I dont lean towards gutting an already bad roster in the hopes you get ____. Especially not when you are gonna win 20 something games anyway.
You get a top pick. How high....basketball gods again.
They keep busy.[/QUOTE]
You miss the point yet again. For starters, you make the best decisions you can...and if you get unlucky or lucky...it happens. So from the jump your thought process is flawed.
But it's not even about that. It's about realizing that the Magic wouldn't want to keep AA long term. He's going to get paid...he's going to opt out this coming season and some stupid team was going to pay the shit out of him if he had stayed on the Magic driving up his value by putting up numbers on a shit team.
Knowing that the Magic didn't want to pay him...you should move him at his peak trade value because you want to get something in return. Keeping him past the deadline of last year kills his trade value because teams don't like 1 year rentals.
However, 2 years in the playoffs guaranteed for a contender? Then they'd give up a lot more.
In the end...you make bad decisions...and you end up with a worse draft pick, fournier, and the 56th pick.
When you could have potentially had a higher pick, perry jones type guys, and a top 25 pick in an upcoming draft...
The fact that you still don't get why what the Magic did with AA was so stupid is my exact point. You don't see it...the little things matter. The hell if I want my GM not paying attention to all the little things and just constantly saying..."it doesn't matter the details...this will be known as the Wiggins for Love trade"...ugh...not thanks
I'm also not sure you actually know how the lottery works either now...you make it sound like the Magic could have a bottom 2 record and wind up with the 10th pick or something. You realize that isn't how it works...right?