Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen's as a leader

[QUOTE]Scottie was a leader, but Michael Jordan was the leader of the Bulls. Your best player almost has to be your leader.[/QUOTE]

There are 30 teams in the league. The guy who is best at putting the ball through the hoop is the best leader in all 30 cases? If Barack Obama or Chris Christie joined a NBA team as a 12th man they wouldn't emerge as a team leader?

What is the source for your quotes? What you posted is not mutually exclusive with the OP. What Jackson said--and other sources, i.e. teammates--back this up is Pippen directed the offense, defense and was the guy players turned to for help, advice, support, inspiration, etc. As for who "THE" leader was no one really cares. It is funny how MJ has to presented as #1 in every regard. Jackson said Pippen and Jordan were equally important in terms of leadership. Rosen said it was Pippen. A team has 12-15 players so inevitably there will be a couple of leaders (i.e. Kobe and Fisher on the Lakers. Usually, or at least ideally, they will perform different leadership functions. Pippen and Jordan's leadership styles complemented each other perfectly (Cartwright also was a key leader and Dave Corzine in the 80's--he was the guy young Pippen and Grant turned to).

Pippen also played 8 seasons without MJ and was a leader on his teams without MJ, as Jackson noted. He was a leader in Chicago and then in Portland. He did the same leadership things in Portland as he did in Chicago. Leaders are leaders wherever they go.

I would like to see more hard evidence on MJ's leadership and how it worked. Maybe a :mad: MJ stan should do a thread about it like I did here. I agree he was an important leader but I do think his leadership is overrated. The guy refused to talk to some players. He was derogatory toward others. Those are not effective leadership techniques.

[QUOTE]Jackson has often said there should be as many leaders as possible on a team, I think that's what the Pippen stuff is. Jackson takes a lot of pride in Pippen's growth as a player, feels responsible for it to a degree and has a sense of "paternal pride" as he's said before.[/QUOTE]

What will the rationale be to diminish his teammates' comments on his leadership? What is being suggested by several posters here is Jackson is saying these things but does not really believe them. It is a natural defense mechanism to dismiss the validity of unwelcome information. Again, that is where Charley Rosen is important. Rosen is going by private conversations over the years with his friend Jackson, not public statements.

[QUOTE]Dude has been way to.active on the boards with his not subtle MJ smear campaign[/QUOTE]

You have more posts in a year than I do in five years. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]I don't care if MJ stans dislike me. Of course they won't. I've been routinely exposing them for 5 years. What I take offense to is the "fake Pippen fan" attacks. They have accused me of being a faux Pippen fan my entire time here (well, other than my first 2 months or so when I was pro-Mike). For YEARS they said I was a closet Kobe stan. YEARS. They said I was Fatal9. Now, in 2014, the same clowns are saying I am a closet LeBron stan and Pauk. :roll:



Yeah MJ was an important leader. He and Cartwright are why the thread title says "A leader" not "THE leader" because there were multiple leaders on Chicago--like there are on most teams.



I've posted several threads on Rose, Shaq and various other topics over the years. I also am often in Bulls threads (MJ stans have never identified which TEAM I root for if it isn't Chicago :oldlol: ).[/QUOTE]
Link me to a thread you expose any legitimate MJ fan. You never exposed anyone.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Co sign ... Dude has been way to.active on the boards with his not subtle MJ smear campaign[/QUOTE]

the irony. :oldlol: i've exposed your dumb ass for having MULTIPLE accounts on here.

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8047584#post8047584[/url]

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]jordan was the best scorer on the team. no doubt.[/QUOTE]
Best player idiot

[QUOTE=LeBird]It's hard to get a discussion off the ground when the same group of stans are systematically trying to derail his threads. If they truly didn't care or thought he had an agenda, they'd just let his threads be and die if they're that uninteresting.

It's the threat that they're relevant, true and intelligent that causes them to try to attack him and kill the thread before it starts - before anyone actually gets to engage in the discussion and, you know, possibly give more credit to Pippen for those successes.
[/QUOTE]

There's definitely a way to structure a post if your intent is to avoid stanning and foster legitimate discussion - granted a lot of that starts outside of the thread itself and is frankly out of reach for the OP at this point. Someone like Da_Realist, GOAT, ShaqAttack could basically post this exact same thread, structure it in a different way, and the responses would be entirely different. You could probably even get some of the die hard Jordan fans to start engaging in a positive Pippen discussion of that was truly your intent.

[QUOTE]This thread has gone 5 pages and there's yet to be an intelligent reply from anyone disagreeing with the theme of the thread.[/QUOTE]

I mean what is there to disagree with really? There's hardly a more credible source than Phil Jackson and his point has been backed up by many others as well.

Mj led the Bulls in asts in 89,90,91,93 playoffs.:applause: In the playoffs Mj shown what the deal was. In 91 he had his Lowe st usage rate yet still outpaced Pippen.:applause:

[QUOTE]There's definitely a way to structure a post if your intent is to avoid stanning and foster legitimate discussion - granted a lot of that starts outside of the thread itself and is frankly out of reach for the OP at this point. Someone like Da_Realist, GOAT, ShaqAttack could basically post this exact same thread, structure it in a different way, and the responses would be entirely different. You could probably even get some of the die hard Jordan fans to start engaging in a positive Pippen discussion of that was truly your intent.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes: The OP is basically just a series of quotes.
Care to show us some examples of Pippen threads where that occurred? Thanks in advance. I look forward to it.

The fact is this happens in practically every Pippen thread. (Do a quick Google search) Even when I rarely posted in 2012 and 2013--or before I even registered in 2009 (I was a lurker for a while). As soon as someone makes a positive comment about Pippen MJ stans have to get there to knock down that comment. There was a "Scottie Pippen appreciation thread" years ago that went 13 pages because of this dynamic. If you are going to continue to accuse others of trolling, at least do your homework. I don't recall you posting at all before today let alone being in any Pippen thread. You are citing Da_Realist as a Pippen fan. He is pro-Pippen but he is a MJ fan, not a Pippen fan.

It is interesting you mention ShaqAttack. He was on my side in numerous Pippen threads. It also is funny you are silent on half a dozen MJ stans proceeding to rip Pippen in this thread.

Kshutts1 is a Pippen fan and echoed my thinking on this stuff a few days ago. He just isn't as vocal about it or aggressively anti-MJ but he too said he gets annoyed by people claiming MJ won by himself and the diminishing of Pippen's role.

So who am I "really" a fan of?

Patting on the back will never be an equal type of leadership to leading by example and harsh words.
That's what champions are made of

Great post OP.

Without Pippen the Bulls don't win all those championships. Jordan was a dick on the court, there are some wild stories, ask Bill Cartwright. Anyways, Pip was the emotional leader, MJ verbally directed and is obviously GOAT, but Pip really did a lot for his team as far as uplifting and encouraging teammates, setting the tone defensively and guarding the opposing teams best player every night. Scottie was the glue.

[IMG]http://theshoegame.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/michael-jordan-scottie-pippen-flu-game.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]There are 30 teams in the league. The guy who is best at putting the ball through the hoop is the best leader in all 30 cases? If Barack Obama or Chris Christie joined a NBA team as a 12th man they wouldn't emerge as a team leader? [/quote]

Of course not, they are not good at basketball. They might bring some qualities of leadership to the table. Same reason they wouldn't be a good coach. In my experience as a coach and player the best teams almost always have their best player as leader. Not always vocal, but they follow.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]What is the source for your quotes?[/quote]

One is from the Lazenby Book, one is from Sacred Hoops and the one about "emotional climate" is from Phil's comparrison of Kobe and MJ last year.


[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock] What you posted is not mutually exclusive with the OP. What Jackson said--and other sources, i.e. teammates--back this up is Pippen directed the offense, defense and was the guy players turned to for help, advice, support, inspiration, etc. [/quote]

That's because Jordan was a dick. I agree with something you said the other night about "tearing people down" etc. like MJ was known to do. I think it's why he's failed as an executive over and over. Same with Isiah. But if he were winning titles as an executive he could still be a leader with that style.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]As for who "THE" leader was no one really cares. It is funny how MJ has to presented as #1 in every regard. Jackson said Pippen and Jordan were equally important in terms of leadership.[/quote]

I know, and I agree that they were, but you just posted a lot of quotes about Pippen's leadership. I was just qualifying the context of his type of leadership. Pip is not a guy who was gonna get in your face and Jordan was not a guy who was gonna be your buddy. They also had Bill Cartwright, a leader early on who was the best teacher on the team, that became his nickname. Cartwright is the guy who screamed and cried at Pippen with tears running down his face after the game four near disaster vs. the Knicks in '94. But just like how Jackson and Cartwright knew Pippen had to be their leader in '94 for them to get where they wanted, the same applies to Jordan when he was there.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock] Rosen said it was Pippen. A team has 12-15 players so inevitably there will be a couple of leaders (i.e. Kobe and Fisher on the Lakers. Usually, or at least ideally, they will perform different leadership functions. Pippen and Jordan's leadership styles complemented each other perfectly (Cartwright also was a key leader and Dave Corzine in the 80's--he was the guy young Pippen and Grant turned to). [/quote]

Should have read this before my response above, I guess we agree here.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]I would like to see more hard evidence on MJ's leadership and how it worked. Maybe a :mad: MJ stan should do a thread about it like I did here. I agree he was an important leader but I do think his leadership is overrated. The guy refused to talk to some players. He was derogatory toward others. Those are not effective leadership techniques.[/quote]

They can be. Kerr said he and Jordan's fist fight actually helped the teams chemistry. It's like how Kobe is a leader or Bird. They only tolerate greatness. That can be frustrating, but it reminds me oof my coaches growing up. I almost always thought they were assholes until the season was well on and I realized how much better I was getting because of the constant demands being put on me.

Like we both said, their styles of leadership complimented eachother, but as Telander indicates, and Jackson touches on in "Mind Games" I'm not sure Pippen was capable of doing what Jordan did. He was too nice of a person.


[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]What will the rationale be to diminish his teammates' comments on his leadership? What is being suggested by several posters here is Jackson is saying these things but does not really believe them. It is a natural defense mechanism to dismiss the validity of unwelcome information. Again, that is where Charley Rosen is important. Rosen is going by private conversations over the years with his friend Jackson, not public statements.[/quote]

Yeah people do that with quotes about Magic/Kareem Russell/Wilt, all the time. I do think the fact that guys liked Pippen and that Jordan got so much blame than so much credit for the teams success makes them more likely to stand up for Pippen, a sort of unsung hero on those teams in the moment more often than not. It's pretty clear MJ is an A-Hole, the type of guy who holds a grudge for 30+ years. It stands to reason that guys only compliment the type of player he was (that's undeniable) I probably wouldn't have much nice to say about him either after we were done playing together.

[QUOTE=KNOW1EDGE]Great post OP.

Without Pippen the Bulls don't win all those championships. Jordan was a dick on the court, there are some wild stories, ask Bill Cartwright. Anyways, Pip was the emotional leader, MJ verbally directed and is obviously GOAT, but Pip really did a lot for his team as far as uplifting and encouraging teammates, setting the tone defensively and guarding the opposing teams best player every night. Scottie was the glue.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

Cartwright:

[QUOTE]Former teammate and current Bulls coach Bill Cartwright flatly states that [B]Pippen 'was as much a part of winning the championships as MJ. I don't think it would have gotten done without him.'[/B][/QUOTE]

[url]http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/...asketball.html[/url]

Yeah Cartwright, Grant, Longley and a few others were not treated well by MJ. Dat leadershiip doe! :bowdown:

[QUOTE]Sam Smith, in ""The Jordan Rules"" wrote that [B]Jordan had no respect for Cartwright, told his teammates to keep the ball away from Cartwright in crucial late-game situations (even if coach Doug Collins called a play involving Cartwright), and bellittled the veteran publicly. Cartwright confronted Jordan:[/B]

Excerpt: He didn't do or say anything to anybody until late that season, when he told Jordan he needed to talk to him.

There was little small talk exchanged. [B]"I don't like the things I've heard you saying about me," Cartwright told Jordan.

Jordan stared at him.

"If Iever hear again that you're telling guys not to pass me the ball," Cartwright continued, "you will never play basketball again." :roll:
[/B]
That was it. But as Cartwright began to move better after surgery following the 1989-90 season, Jordan began to accept him more.

David Halberstam, in "Playing for Keeps," paints a similar picture.

Note: Jordan can be wrong. Very wrong.

Excerpt: [B]Jordan did not respect Cartwright as a man or as a player. He called him Medical Bill because of his past injuries. He thouught Cartwright had bad hands, so sometimes in practice he threw him passes that were unnecessarily hard so that Cartwright would fumble them and prove Jordan's point. [/B]About no other player was Michael Jordan to prove quite so wrong as about Bill Cartwright, both as a man and as a player, but it took him almost two years to realize it and admit it.

Janet Lowe, in ""Michael Jordan Speaks: Lessons from the World's Greatest Champion"," explained how MJ admitted his error, with big-time class:

Excerpt: Jordan acknowledged later that he had been unhappy when the Bulls traded away his friend Charles Oakley in 1988 to bring in Cartwright, a veteran in the waning years of his playing career.

[B]Later, Michael made amends to Cartwright and to management who arranged the trade with a tribute to Cartwright across a two-page spread of Jordan's coffee-table book, For the Love of the Game: My Story. A sprawling headline across the top of pages 40-41 read: "I was wrong about the Charles Oakley-Bill Cartwright trade in 1988." Across the bottom was written, "I loved having Charles on the team, but Bill made the difference."[/B][/QUOTE]

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=merron/041109%20[/url]

Nice post Roundball, that was exactly what I was referring to with Cartwright :applause:

Some people don't know just how brutal and sometimes down right arrogant and nasty MJ could be on the court

Pip would uplift the team and tone Mike down a bit, he played mediator cuz he had that great relationship with MJ and with the rest of his team, while MJ was GOAT he didn't always have the best relationships with his teammates

[QUOTE]Of course not, they are not good at basketball. They might bring some qualities of leadership to the table. Same reason they wouldn't be a good coach. In my experience as a coach and player the best teams almost always have their best player as leader. Not always vocal, but they follow. [/QUOTE]

I disagree with this. Those guys have been leaders everywhere they have been. I don't see why that would not emerge even if they were scrubs in the NBA.

On Jordan, if I recall correctly MJ didn't really become an engaged leader until 1990 or 1991. He was a one man show early in his career.

[QUOTE]One is from the Lazenby Book, one is from Sacred Hoops and the one about "emotional climate" is from Phil's comparrison of Kobe and MJ last year. [/QUOTE]

Ok. I was curious. I'll have to check out Jackson's books. I've read all the 90's Bulls books (except Smith's second, but that is next on my reading list) but not Jackson's yet. Wennington's book is particularly insightful because it provides a direct window into the team from a player.

[QUOTE]That's because Jordan was a dick. I agree with something you said the other night about "tearing people down" etc. like MJ was known to do. I think it's why he's failed as an executive over and over. Same with Isiah. But if he were winning titles as an executive he could still be a leader with that style. [/QUOTE]


Yeah and it also is why his approach flopped in Washington. The players tuned him out. His approach can only work in perfect circumstances: it is an accepted part of the culture and there are other leaders present to mitigate the worst of his approach.

[QUOTE]Pip is not a guy who was gonna get in your face and Jordan was not a guy who was gonna be your buddy. [/QUOTE]

I am not sure about the former. Harper said Pippen would call you out if you were doing something wrong. I just think he did it in a diplomatic way. Look at what he was doing. He was coaching the defense on the floor, directing the offense. Inevitably he would have to make recommendations to players to improve things. You just don't have to be a jerk about it.

[QUOTE]I do think the fact that guys liked Pippen and that Jordan got so much blame than so much credit for the teams success makes them more likely to stand up for Pippen, a sort of unsung hero on those teams in the moment more often than not. It's pretty clear MJ is an A-Hole, the type of guy who holds a grudge for 30+ years. It stands to reason that guys only compliment the type of player he was[/QUOTE]

I'll defer to you on the final point. I haven't really explored what people have said about MJ as a leader. I just see him hyped as this MLK-caliber leader in the press and, based on what I know about the teams he was on, am skeptical of those depictions but maybe there is some merit to it. I do know in researching quotes on Pippen there were teammates who also mentioned MJ as a leader. What you are saying is MJ was hated by his teammates so they are limited in what they say about him. That may be true. I don't know.

I don't think they are necessarily standing up for Pippen. They simply are gushing about a guy who seemingly was great to work with. One thing I have seen mentioned by a few players is Pippen was a superstar who was down to Earth and helpful. They appreciated that he appreciated and cared for them. They also, which goes to your earlier point about the best player, gave him more weight because he was an elite player. Look at the Wennington quote. He was happy to have a superstar help him despite being a scrub and he noted Pippen did not look down on him.

Where I do think they may be standing up for him is in quotes where they talk about his overall importance to the team, i.e. Cartwright saying he was equal to MJ. The quotes on leadership are more fond remembrances of a colleague who most of them viewed as their favorite teammate.

[QUOTE]Some people don't know just how brutal and sometimes down right arrogant and nasty MJ could be on the court

Pip would uplift the team and tone Mike down a bit, he played mediator cuz he had that great relationship with MJ and with the rest of his team, while MJ was GOAT he didn't always have the best relationships with his teammates[/QUOTE]

Yeah without other leaders MJ's tactics would not have worked as well, which is what happened in D.C.

[QUOTE]Beyond all his physical, mental, and basketball-related talents, [B]w[/B][B]hat made Scottie so special were his intangible qualities as a teammate – ask anyone who ever played with the Bulls in the 90’s, or with the Blazers in the early 2000’s, and they’ll all agree that Scottie was everyone’s favorite teammate.[/B] Just [B]like his on-court existence was predicated on unselfishness, much of Scottie’s success has to do with the galvanizing effect he had on locker rooms and the way he endeared himself to teammates. In particular, the one thing that I feel Scottie never gets enough credit for: the way he made being around and playing with MJ easier for everyone. [/B]Michael Jordan is the greatest player in NBA history, but make no mistake: he was far from the easiest person with whom to deal. Michael’s obsession with winning bordered on pathological, and this greatly affected his people skills; he regularly would tear down his teammates to weed out the ones he deemed to weak. A single mistake at any time could elicit the wrath of MJ – and if you even dared to talk back you were in for a world of hurt (just ask Steve Kerr). [B]Thankfully Scottie was the one who was always there to pat you on the back, to build you back up with encouraging words, to glue your cracked psyche together instead of letting it fall apart into a million little pieces.[/B] See, Scottie had been there before, too many times to count. He had gone through all the toughest courses in Air Jordan’s school of hard knocks and managed to come out alive when almost any other human being would’ve folded. And it was because of that experience that Scottie was able to empathize with everyone else in ways that Michael never could. [B]Michael Jordan led the Bulls by example, but Phil Jackson always said that Pippen was the team’s vocal leader in the locker room and on the court.[/B] Unfortunately all of Scottie’s intangibles are conveniently forgotten by his detractors and instead several myths have been perpetuated about him.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://arjun-allthingssports.blogspot.com/2011/08/scottie-pippen-greatness-in-nutshell_27.html[/url]

Here are some rich quotes from MJ on his teammates. :oldlol: [url]http://blacksportsonline.com/home/2012/10/michael-jordans-quotes-on-teammates-you-might-be-surprised/[/url]

Being "nice" doesn't necessarily make you a winner. Winning is hard, and the saying "nice guys finish last" is often true.

People do this a lot but most of the most successful people are hard asses. Steve Jobs was like that, most hyper-successful people are.

Besides in the initial quote, Phil basically says their leadership was "equal", MJ was just bad cop, while Pippen played good cop.

When the Bulls took on more of MJ's persona -- cold, ruthless, efficient with a dash of swagger, that's when they started whupping ass. You can't "nice" your way to victory when teams like Detroit and New York want to rip your head off.

[QUOTE=KNOW1EDGE]Nice post Roundball, that was exactly what I was referring to with Cartwright :applause:

Some people don't know just how brutal and sometimes down right arrogant and nasty MJ could be on the court

[B]Pip would uplift the team and tone Mike down a bit, he played mediator cuz he had that great relationship with MJ and with the rest of his team[/B], while MJ was GOAT he didn't always have the best relationships with his teammates[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Like I said earlier, Scottie was the grandmother who would be a shoulder to cry on and bake cookies for the boys when their father (MJ) would scold them.

But what happened when dad was away and grandmama was asked by the coach to exhibit that legendary leadership and team spirit?

Jordan proved he was willing to play decoy for teammates on final shots

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnAr4I3-Z48[/url] (MJ Had scored all the Bulls' 4th quarter points until the final shot by Paxson)

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7XCwLHIPLY[/url]

The first time Scottie as the man was asked to do the same, he promptly quit on the team and went to pout and sulk at the end of the bench in crunch time of a key playoff game.

True Story.

Easy to be Mr. Likeable and the Nice Guy when you don't have to [I]actually[/I] lead. A valuable lesson Mr. Pippen learned when he was asked to be that guy. But he said, 'thanks but no thanks'.

[IMG]http://solecollector.com/media/u/images/Listt%205.jpg[/IMG]

And the second 3-peat is History.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]Being "nice" doesn't necessarily make you a winner. Winning is hard, and the saying "nice guys finish last" is often true.

People do this a lot but most of the most successful people are hard asses. Steve Jobs was like that, most hyper-successful people are.

Besides in the initial quote, Phil basically says their leadership was "equal", MJ was just bad cop, while Pippen played good cop.

When the Bulls took on more of MJ's persona -- cold, ruthless, efficient with a dash of swagger, that's when they started whupping ass. You can't "nice" your way to victory when teams like Detroit and New York want to rip your head off.[/QUOTE]
Lol you guys are incredible. So now the Bulls personnel received Jordans personality from Jordan?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol you guys are incredible. So now the Bulls personnel received Jordans personality from Jordan?[/QUOTE]

The best player's personality tends to rub off on his teammates in many situations.

You can't seriously tell me the Bulls didn't walk an inch taller and with a little more swagger when they had Jordan in the lineup.

Gimme a break with this "oh he was just another player in the lineup" nonsense.

He's the greatest player to ever play and perhaps the most ruthless competitor the sport has ever seen. Of course that rubs off on teammates.

You and Roundball have gone full retard with this whole thing to turn it around and try to act like Jordan was just a regular player on the team. He was the best player on the team by a country mile, lets not get it twisted.

If he decided to stay and play baseball, the "97 bulls" would be a .500 team that no one gives two sh*ts about.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]People do this a lot but most of the most successful people are hard asses. Steve Jobs was like that, most hyper-successful people are.
[/QUOTE]

How many successful [I]leaders[/I] are, though? After all, in order to lead you need people willing to follow you. This is especially true if you need people to voluntarily follow you and move in your direction. If you are a supervisor and have the authority to control someone you can get away with it more, but even then it carries risks. People will simply tune you out or begin to resent you, especially if you lack coercive power over them.

Look at great leaders. Washington, Lincoln, FDR, Eisenhower, MLK, Gandhi, Reagan and so on. They not only convinced others within the system to go along with their agenda they also had loyal lieutenants, somewhat analogous to basketball teammates (except they had control over them) willing to help them execute their programs. Off the top of my head the one guy who comes close to the approach you describe is Newt Gingrich. It did work--for a while--but his act wore thing and he went from being the supreme figure in American government in early 95' to being kicked out by his own party just three years later. It was a remarkable rise and fall in a short period--and completely self-inflicted because it was Newt's way or no way and he failed to nurture relationships (compare that to a successful legislative leader like Lyndon Johnson). Remember, when Gingrich ran for president in 2012 very few of his former House colleagues supported him and several publicly denounced him. Didn't Jobs get kicked out from Apple too?

There are no quotes from, say, Alexander Hamilton talking about how G. Washington--the most alpha of alpha's--was derogatory towards him. :oldlol: Look at the results. Hamilton did everything for him based on the bond they created.


[QUOTE]The speaker angrily called a meeting in the Capitol basement after they sunk the bill, bellowing: “The 11 geniuses who thoughts they knew more than the rest of us are going to come and explain their votes.”

Without missing a beat, Rep. Steve Largent, a former pro football player, shot back: “Mr. Speaker, if I wasn’t intimidated by 250 linebackers trying to kill me I’m not going to be intimidated by you.” As silence enveloped the room, the previously bombastic speaker looked chastened[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/23/how-newt-gingrich-crashed-and-burned-when-he-was-house-speaker.html[/url]

[QUOTE]The best player's personality tends to rub off on his teammates in many situations. [/QUOTE]

It can. It did in some ways with MJ. People keep invoking "best player" but MJ himself was not a leader on the Bulls early in the 80's when he was the best player. Does anyone really think Kevin Durant is the leader in OKC? He may be. I don't know. He just doesn't seem to be that type. Westbrook does.

[QUOTE]If he decided to stay and play baseball, the "97 bulls" would be a .500 team that no one gives two sh*ts about.[/QUOTE]

PF Rodman
SF Pippen
C Longley
SG Harper
PG X

6th man: Kukoc
7th man: Kerr

That team does not contend? :biggums:

You guys know nothing about leadership. Much less leading men. Why do you think Bob Knight never coached in the NBA? Why did PJ Carlisimo get choked by Latrell Sprewell? Why didnt Larry Bird and Bob Knight get along?

Even with Jordan. Why did he get into a fight with Steve Kerr? Why did Robert Parish threaten to kick his ass? Why was Rodman so succesful in Chicago?

Real men don't respond to that kind of leadership.We respond to reapect. Weak minded men and children respond to fear.

I don't see what the problem is with Rocks post. For years hes been touting that Pippen was a leader. And Jordan groupies have said he wasn't. So hes posts actual quotes from Pippens coaches, peers teammates, writers, opposition, even your god Michael Jordan himself. etc. People that had actual inside views on Pippens inpact on basketball.

Are you guys that much in love with Jordan? So much that facts are considered trolling?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]You guys know nothing about leadership. Much less leading men. Why do you think Bob Knight never coached in the NBA? Why did PJ Carlisimo get choked by Latrell Sprewell? Why didnt Larry Bird and Bob Knight get along?

Even with Jordan. Why did he get into a fight with Steve Kerr? Why did Robert Parish threaten to kick his ass? Why was Rodman so succesful in Chicago?

Real men don't respond to that kind of leadership.We respond to reapect. Weak minded men and children respond to fear.[/QUOTE]

For those people who think that approach works, why don't they try it? I actually did...I quickly shifted to a more positive approach--and I got results after I did. While I was respected and admired as the "best player" (on a campaign) who could do things the others couldn't, they tuned me out because of my harshness when people were not performing up to snuff or slacking and a distance developed between me and the others. When I shifted to a more positive, helpful, mentoring approach with some of the same people would walk through a wall for me. Why? They knew I was interested in helping them and frequently went out of my way to help and teach them things. That goes a long way with people. They started to view me as an asset in their life/on their team, not an arrogant, harsh nuisance.

[QUOTE=97_bulls]I don't see what the problem is with Rocks post. [B]For years hes been touting that Pippen was a leader. And Jordan groupies have said he wasn't.[/B] So hes posts actual quotes from Pippens coaches, peers teammates, writers, opposition, even your god Michael Jordan himself. etc. People that had actual inside views on Pippens inpact on basketball.

Are you guys that much in love with Jordan? So much that facts are considered trolling?[/QUOTE]

Exactly. The key word being "years." Even yesterday multiple pro-MJ posters were saying Pippen was a poor leader. So a Pippen fan decides to collect evidence from people who were actually on the team and MJ fans go beserk at the unfairness of it and call it trolling and proceed to rip Pippen throughout the thread. :roll: How many times have you, since you are often in Pippen threads, see MJ stans rip Pippen as not being a good leader?

This thread is about Pippen's leadership. MJ stans are free to post a thread about Mike's leadership. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Soundwave]The best player's personality tends to rub off on his teammates in many situations.

You can't seriously tell me the Bulls didn't walk an inch taller and with a little more swagger when they had Jordan in the lineup.

Gimme a break with this "oh he was just another player in the lineup" nonsense.

He's the greatest player to ever play and perhaps the most ruthless competitor the sport has ever seen. Of course that rubs off on teammates.

Just because Jordan was an asshole does not mean his teammates were. I can't think of any one of the Bulls players that even remotely assumed Jordans personality.

They gained confidence with him on the team. But they werent jerks.
You and Roundball have gone full retard with this whole thing to turn it around and try to act like Jordan was just a regular player on the team. He was the best player on the team by a country mile, lets not get it twisted.

If he decided to stay and play baseball, the "97 bulls" would be a .500 team that no one gives two sh*ts about.[/QUOTE]
Again for the 9 millionth time, and im screaming thus at you.......SCOTTIE PIPPENS GREATNESS IN NO WAY INFRINGES ON JORDANS!!!!!!!!!! DAMNM.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]You guys know nothing about leadership. Much less leading men. Why do you think Bob Knight never coached in the NBA? Why did PJ Carlisimo get choked by Latrell Sprewell? Why didnt Larry Bird and Bob Knight get along?

Even with Jordan. Why did he get into a fight with Steve Kerr? Why did Robert Parish threaten to kick his ass? Why was Rodman so succesful in Chicago?

Real men don't respond to that kind of leadership.We respond to reapect. Weak minded men and children respond to fear.

I don't see what the problem is with Rocks post. For years hes been touting that Pippen was a leader. And Jordan groupies have said he wasn't. So hes posts actual quotes from Pippens coaches, peers teammates, writers, opposition, even your god Michael Jordan himself. etc. People that had actual inside views on Pippens inpact on basketball.

Are you guys that much in love with Jordan? So much that facts are considered trolling?[/QUOTE]

What fact? Also remind me when Jordan ever sat on the bench refusing to go into a game like Scottie did? When did Jordan ever bicker with other star teammates like Pippen did with Barkley and was unable to get his game to work with Hakeem as well? Did a Jordan team ever suffer from a epic playoff choke job like the Blazers in 2000?

That's "real leadership"?

These aren't attributes I equate to "great leader" per se, there are lots of cracks in Scottie's armor. MJ may have had his spats with teammates, but I never saw it manifest itself on the court in meltdowns like that.

And IMO Rodman stayed relatively in check (relatively) in Chicago in large part because he respected Jordan as the best player in the game. MJ commanded respect from everyone. Rodman isn't the type that listens to or gives two sh*ts about "nice speeches", he only respects power.

You guys are cherry picking quotes, there are plenty of quotes that put MJ in a positive light, but you guys hand pick the ones centered about Pippen.

What's the one where Phil or Tex said that Jordan always had the mentality of a hunting wolf whereas Scottie only had that mentality when he knew he had back up?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Even with Jordan. Why did he get into a fight with Steve Kerr? Why did Robert Parish threaten to kick his ass? [/QUOTE]

All of Jordan's transgressions put together don't equal what Scottie did at the end of that game. I challenge anyone here to find me an example as bad or worse of another player doing something so egregious in so important a moment in NBA History. Hell you can make it any sport you want. Then we'll have a frank discussion what it actually means to be a leader.

If Kukoc had missed that shot...

(But he didn't because he had hit 3 game winners/buzzer beaters that season and Phil reasoned [obviously correctly] that he was the man for the job).

[QUOTE=The_Pharcyde]I mean I could go on and on I have read over 10+ on the dynasty bulls
And Phil Jackson

But why would I talk to a troll who is either trying to prop kobe or lebron through a back channel like all the other ones

Anyone else think it is weird that Pippen all of the sudden has so many supporters

Scottie is my guy, I'll never forget his 1993 ECF and blocking charles smith or the 94 dunk on ewing

[b]But anyone who says he was the leader of the Bulls is just lying to themselves[/b]
Just enjoy the game and all it's players
These young fans are too dumb to realize that yet[/QUOTE]
phil ****in jackson called pippen their leader you dweeb :oldlol: :oldlol:

[QUOTE]And IMO Rodman stayed relatively in check (relatively) in Chicago in part because he respected Jordan as the best player in the game. MJ commanded respect from everyone. [/QUOTE]

Where is Rodman quoted as saying that? He did not even talk to MJ until March of that season.

[QUOTE]You guys are cherry picking quotes, there are plenty of quotes that put MJ in a positive light, but you guys hand pick the ones centered about Pippen. [/QUOTE]

Then put on your Air Jordans and post a pro-Jordan thread about his leadership with those quotes. This thread is not about Mike. We are giving props to Pip in light of unfair attacks on his leadership by MJ stans and a few others.

These quotes are just from Jackson. I'll have another thread with quotes from teammates and others.

[QUOTE]When did Jordan ever bicker with other star teammates[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Quote:
........................"We're beating a lot of poor teams. So what? We won a lot of games last year, too. Will Horace and Bill still be playing at this level in the playoffs...Can Pip keep it up?"

Quote:[B]
"I hate being out there with those garbagemen.[/B] They don't get you the ball."

Quote:
"They've got no idea what it's all about. [B]The white guys, they work hard, but they don't have the talent.[/B] And [B]the rest of them? Who knows what to expect? They're not good for much of anything."[/B]

Quote:
"I know what's gonna happen. We'll wait until the last minute and then they'll say something like they couldn't get a deal done because of the cap or somebody pulled out at the last minute. It happens here all the time. I don't know why I'm surprised every year."

Quote:
[B]"He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Perdue[/B]

Quote:
"You ever hear of a guy, six-eleven maybe and two hundred sixty pounds, a guy big and fat like that and he can't get but two rebounds, if that many, running all over the damn court and he gets two rebounds? Big guy like that and he gets one rebound.[B] Can't even stick his ass into people and get more than that...Big, fat, fat guy. One rebound in three games. Power forward. Maybe they should call it powerless forward." - Michael ripping Stacey King a new one[/B]

Quote:
[B]"He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored." - Michael on B.J. Armstrong's mental fragility[/B]

Quote:
I'll let them stand up and take responsibility for themselves."

Quote:
"We have to do some things. We need to make some changes."

Quote:
"...I call them 'the Looney Tunes.' Physically, they were the best. Mentally, they weren't even close."

Quote:
"He's scared. He's got no heart...Nobody told me that. If I had spoken up, he wouldn't have been here."

Quote:
"I know I can recognize what to do, but I'm not sure they can."

Quote:
[B]"It's a hell of a lot easier to make Earl Monroe look good than it is Brad Sellers."[/B]

Quote:
[B]"I hope there's a jumpshot in there." - Michael to Stacey King who was walking into the locker room with a box[/B]

Quote:
[B]"They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends[/B]

Quote:
[B]"Give me the fu*king ball." - Michael to Doug Collins who drew up a play for Dave Corzine (this was in the playoffs I believe--not exactly what the 1.8 second crowd would lead you to believe MJ would do)[/B]

Quote:
"I hate when I have to read that in the papers the next day, that I couldn't do something. It wasn't my fault."

Quote:
[B]"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant[/B]

Quote:
[B]"If you [pass the ball to Bill Cartwright], you'll never get the ball from me."[/B]

Quote:
"We're not winning because of talent. We're just beating bad teams."

Quote:
[B]"Headache tonight, Scottie?" - Michael asks Scottie, while showing him his 2-for-16 line[/B]

Quote:
[B]"It's probably a twelve-day. He needs two days to wake up." - Michael on a ten-day contract teammate[/B]

Quote:
"Five more years and I'm out of here. I'm marking these days on a calendar, like I'm in jail. I'm tired of being used by this organization, by the league, by the writers, by everyone."

Quote:
"They're not interested in winning. They just want to sell tickets, which they can do because of me. They won't make any deals to make us better. And this Kukoc thing. I hate that. They're spending all their time chasing this guy."

Quote:
"If I were a general manager, we'd be a better team."

Quote:
[B]"Will Vanderbilt. He doesn't deserve to be named after a Big Ten school." - Michael on Will Perdue[/B] - AWESOME!

Quote:
"I want to prove the critics wrong...I want to see some serious moves from management, which I really haven't seen that much of yet, and I want to see more serious attitudes from my teammates this year when it comes to the playoffs. In the past, it's been more or less a joking thing, sort of a 'Well, we're here, so let's have a good time.'"..........

Quote:
"I'm sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I'm shooting."

Quote:
"I know what I would do if I were coach. I'd determine our strengths and weaknesses and utilize them. And it's pretty clear what our strength is."

Quote:[B]
"Your boy doesn't want to play. I'm tired of bailing his ass out." - Michael yelling at Jim Cleamons about Dennis Hopson[/B]

Quote:
"I don't know about trading a 24 year-old guy for a 34 year-old guy." - Michael questioning the Oakley trade

Quote:
[B]"He's causing me too many turnovers." - Michael on Cartwright's inability to catch[/B]

Quote:[B]
"Why the hell don't you ever set a pick like that in a game?" - Michael yelling at Perdue after also hitting Perdue upside his head (led to the institution of the private curtain for practices)[/B]
[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=632753[/url]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=168038[/url]

[QUOTE=Quizno]phil ****in jackson called pippen their leader you dweeb :oldlol: :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Phil was smart to delegate and make every player feel like he had their role and importance to the team.

Gary Payton said it best, everyone knew Jordan was the president. Scottie was just vice president.

The Shaq-Kobe Lakers had more of a blur/overlap of who the no.1 really was, with the Bulls there was never really any doubt who it was.

Leadership also dictates itself on the court ... which player controls the game most on the court for his team. That was always Jordan.

People say Udonis Haslem is the "leader" of the Heat ... that's all fine and dandy, but LeBron is the one that has to dictate on the court or they aren't sh*t.

of COURSE MJ was the #1 guy. he was the best player in the league, but that doesn't mean another player on the team couldn't be one of the team leaders. look at PJ's quotes and his explanations, it's obvious that pippen was an excellent leader and other players looked to him for help moreso than MJ. that isn't a slight against MJ...it doesn't take away from his greatness. pippen is an all-time great player, one of the GOATs too

it's like kobe and d fish...kobe was the team's leader by example, but d fish was the team's leader in the sense that other players looked to him when they needed advice and help

[QUOTE]Gary Payton said it best, everyone knew Jordan was the president. Scottie was just vice president.[/QUOTE]

Gary Payton played on the Bulls? :eek: I'll believe Payton over Phil Jackson, Bill Wennington, B.J. Armstrong, John Paxson, and so on. :roll: Wasn't Payton known for being a jerk and poor leader btw?

Charley Rosen on Payton:

[QUOTE]Gary Payton
G.P. has always been a shoot-first point guard, favoring post-ups, open middles, and high-and-low screens to locate his shots[B]. He was also a confrontational player, demanding perfection form his teammates and his coaches, but never from himself. [/B]Payton's reputation for playing outstanding defense gained him All-Defense honors for nine seasons, and a famous nickname, "The Glove." Even so, during the 1996 Finals, the Chicago Bulls set out to prove something that they already knew — that Payton's rep was mostly bogus. In lieu of playing solid contain defense, Payton routinely gambled for steals at every opportunity, and when he failed he put his teammates in jeopardy. The Bulls limited Payton's room to maneuver by posting Michael Jordan, who had little difficulty catching, shooting, driving, and generally having his way against G.P. Payton's game was, and is, less than meets the eye.
[/QUOTE]

What MJ stans fail to grasp is the best player does not always=the leader and it definitely does not=the sole leader. Bill Cartwright was a role player and a leader on the Bulls. Derek Fisher was a role player and a leader on the Lakers--and of the player's union. Pippen by 2001-2003 was a role player but still a leader in Portland doing there what he did in Chicago.

[QUOTE]People say Udonis Haslem is the "leader" of the Heat ... that's all fine and dandy, but LeBron is the one that has to dictate on the court or they aren't sh*t.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Pippen was dictating the offense and defense. "Scottie was our voice."--Phil Jackson You :mad: ?

[QUOTE]of COURSE MJ was the #1 guy. he was the best player in the league, but that doesn't mean another player on the team couldn't be one of the team leaders. look at PJ's quotes and his explanations, it's obvious that pippen was an excellent leader and other players looked to him for help moreso than MJ. that isn't a slight against MJ...it doesn't take away from his greatness. pippen is an all-time great player, one of the GOATs too

it's like kobe and d fish...kobe was the team's leader by example, but d fish was the team's leader in the sense that other players looked to him when they needed advice and help[/QUOTE]

:applause: Exactly. It isn't a hard concept to grasp. These Jordan mythologists just can't give anyone other than Mike credit.

[QUOTE=Quizno]of COURSE MJ was the #1 guy. he was the best player in the league, but that doesn't mean another player on the team couldn't be one of the team leaders. look at PJ's quotes and his explanations, it's obvious that pippen was an excellent leader and other players looked to him for help moreso than MJ. that isn't a slight against MJ...it doesn't take away from his greatness. pippen is an all-time great player, one of the GOATs too

it's like kobe and d fish...kobe was the team's leader by example, but d fish was the team's leader in the sense that other players looked to him when they needed advice and help[/QUOTE]

I don't have any qualms with that.

If that's what Roundball Rock and 97 bulls were pushing, I'd have no issue with it.

I have qualms with the clearly skewed narrative that someone Jordan wasn't a good leader either and that only Scottie was.

Jordan never had the epic lapses in leadership that Pippen had if we're going to throw stones only at one guy while ignoring all the warts on the other. Scottie had plenty of warts in this area too if we're being honest.

If Kobe or LeBron or Durant or Wade or any major player did what Pippen did in game 3 of that Knicks series, this board would have a full on melt down and it would be a daily topic of derision.

Also as an aside the Jordan-Steve Kerr fight thing ... so what? I don't mind guys have a bit of a throw down/fight in practise anyway. Why is that so taboo? This is a physical, competetive sport played by men, not the ice capades. You want to have that fire.

Maybe it's because I follow football and hockey too, but basketball doesn't need to such a p*ssy sport either.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]What fact? Also remind me when Jordan ever sat on the bench refusing to go into a game like Scottie did? When did Jordan ever bicker with other star teammates like Pippen did with Barkley and was unable to get his game to work with Hakeem as well? Did a Jordan led team ever suffer from a epic playoff choke job like the Blazers in 2000? [/QUOTE]
Michael Jordan assaulted one of his teammates. Come on. And he threatened another. He berated his boss, lets not act like Jordan was a saint.

[QUOTE]These aren't attributes I equate to "great leader" per se, there are lots of cracks in Scottie's armor. MJ may have had his spats with teammates, but I never saw it manifest itself on the court. [/QUOTE]
He never had to. And again, no one is defending what Pippen did. But it was one moment. His teammates and coaches forgave him. Let it go. He never repeted it.

[QUOTE]And IMO Rodman stayed relatively in check (relatively) in Chicago in part because he respected Jordan as the best player in the game. MJ commanded respect from everyone. [/QUOTE]
Lol. Jordan recieved respect due to his play on the court. Not because he was a jerk. Rodman worked because the Bulls allowed Rodman to be Rodman.

[QUOTE]You guys are cherry picking quotes, there are plenty of quotes that put MJ in a positive light, but you guys hand pick the ones centered about Pippen. [/QUOTE]
Youre the one saying that Jordan led by being a jackass. And that thats the only way to get results from people

What do you disagree with in the OP?

[QUOTE][B][U]Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen as a leader[/U][/B]

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Michael Jordan assaulted one of his teammates. Come on. And he threatened another. He berated his boss, lets not act like Jordan was a saint.


He never had to. And again, no one is defending what Pippen did. But it was one moment. His teammates and coaches forgave him. Let it go. He never repeted it.


Lol. Jordan recieved respect due to his play on the court. Not because he was a jerk. Rodman worked because the Bulls allowed Rodman to be Rodman.


Youre the one saying that Jordan led by being a jackass. And that thats the only way to get results from people[/QUOTE]

See above about spats with teammates. Like I said, I follow hockey and football too, basketball doesn't need to be a sport filled with p*ssies. Two player's getting heated in a practice is fine, good for Kerr for sticking up for himself.

Pippen also had his issues meshing with Barkley and Olajuwon and was at the head of perhaps one of the top 3 epic playoff meltdowns in history with the Blazers.

And yeah I would hope that Pippen "never did that again", one time was way too many, it's very likely that could've been the lasting impression of Pippen that people had if Jordan had opted just to stay playing baseball.

Thank gawd for Scottie the internet/Twitter/etc. wasn't a big thing back then otherwise it would've been 10000x worse.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Yeah, I am sure Obama (a real leader--even if you disagree with him you have to acknowledge to become president takes great leadership skills) routinely punches cabinet members and insults his staff.[/QUOTE]

But Obama walking out of the war room when Seal Team 6 was about to take out Osama because he didn't agree with a general's decision would've been a sign of legendary leadership, right?

And I notice no one has responded to my open challenge. There has to be at least a couple examples throughout the 60+ years of professional basketball History. But like I said, feel free to give me an example from any sport.

[QUOTE]Pippen also had his issues meshing with Barkley and Olajuwon and was at the head of perhaps one of the top 3 epic playoff meltdowns in history with the Blazers. [/QUOTE]

He led his team to Game 7 of the WCF against the 67 win Lakers who had two top 10 GOAT players (Shaq is top 5 imo), PEAK Shaq (top 1-3 peak), and the GOAT coach. They were minutes away from going to the Finals, where they would have been heavy favorites. Were you in the huddle? Did Pippen not try to stop it? Every account from his time in Portland praises his leadership.

Don't forget MJ's team--and you are saying MJ was THE leader--had an epic collapse in Game 6 in 95' in the closing minutes as well. Up 8 with 3 minutes left.

It is interesting you point to the collapse on Portland but not Pippen leading 4 bench players back in Game 6 of the Finals against Portland. Bulls.com called it Pippen's finest moment.

Pippen was a leader in Chicago and Portland (even in his final year in Chicago he had some impact on the team culture in 04'). What happened to Mike's leadership ability when he left Chicago? The players tuned him out in D.C.

Why don't you use Google and put together a thread on MJ's leadership like I did?

[B]ANyway. [SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]ON JORDAN'S BRAND OF LEADERSHIP.[/COLOR][/SIZE] [/B] (This is for Roundball_Rock too)

Jordan [b]absolutely needed Pippen[/b] to temper his edge with the right amount of coaxing and personable style. Jordan's harsh leadership style [i]generally[/i] isn't very effective, tbh.


[b]BUT[/b]

Jordan's harsh leadership would absolutely work with [b]only[/b] a particular type of people--and it works magnificently. But it would only be ideal under certain conditions:

>only in capacity of competitions
>on strong minded people
>on confident people
>on competitive/driven people

These people:
-rise to challenges
-don't cave under pressure
-are strong/confident enough not to collapse under MJ's overwhelming personality


That's why the bulls were so ****ing good and did so well in '94. The bulls culled the softer people out and were left with toughminded players led by Scottie.



[B]The difference between the 'weak' players Jordan wouldn't trust or respect:[/B]
[quote][B]He has practically ruined [reserve forward] Rodney McCray for us.' [/B]When the two players are on opposite teams in scrimmages, the source says, "[ Jordan] is in Rodney's face, screaming,[B] 'You're a loser! You've always been a loser!' Rodney can hardly put up a jumper now.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Pippen was a leader in Chicago and Portland (even in his final year in Chicago he had some impact on the team culture in 04'). What happened to Mike's leadership ability when he left Chicago? The players tuned him out in D.C.

Why don't you use Google and put together a thread on MJ's leadership like I did?[/QUOTE]

Jordan was 40 years old in Washington on a crap team playing because he wanted to play while he still had something left in his legs. You're going to tell me with a straight face that Pippen would've led that team anywhere in the same situation? Or any NBA player? I'm sorry even with a 40-year-old Bill Russell that team wasn't doing sh*t.

Swap Pippen with a 33 year old Jordan with those Rockets and he probably leads them to a title. Put a 34 year old Jordan on that Blazers team and they also probably win the championship.

Why don't I use Google to put together a MJ thread? Because I don't need to. I don't have an agenda that needs to be pushed so desperately that I'd spend an hour on Google to make a thread with cherry picked quotes in it as if its a school project or something.

Roundball_Rock has been working overtime flooding ISH with anti-MJ threads lately.

Dude, give that shit up. No matter how much you try to big up Scottie to make MJ look bad, it ain't gonna change the fact the MJ is GOAT and the Bulls didn't win shit before or after him, including the year and a half he was out and Scottie was the man. Add to the fact that as much as trolls like you and that ph@ggot meyha love to say that MJ never won without Pip, Pip didn't win jack nor shit without MJ--and that's with Pip going to a stacked team in the Blazers.

[QUOTE=sportjames23]Roundball_Rock has been working overtime flooding ISH with anti-MJ threads lately.
[/QUOTE]

Hardest working man in show business :applause:

Dude's like the terminator. Won't shut down until his objective is complete.

Must destroy GOAT's legacy :mad:

God speed, RR. God speed. :cheers:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]But Obama walking out of the war room when Seal Team 6 was about to take out Osama because he didn't agree with a general's decision would've been a sign of legendary leadership, right?[/QUOTE]
That kind of thing happens often.

[QUOTE]And I notice no one has responded to my open challenge. There has to be at least a couple examples throughout the 60+ years of professional basketball History. But like I said, feel free to give me an example from any sport.[/QUOTE]
You want to name instances in which a player actually took himself out of a game? Lebron James just did it with 8 minutes to go in the NBA Finals. The Pistons left with the court early in 91.

I don't think Roundball_Rock is trying to make MJ look bad. I think he just feels Pippen's contributions and impact are unfairly downplayed.




And i think i need an avatar now.