How is it even questionable that MJ is GOAT?

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]There's always gonna be this right here:

[B]MINUTES
[/B]Most seasons leading league: 8
Most consecutive seasons leading league: 5
Highest average per game, career: 45.8
Highest average per game, season: 48.5
[B]COMPLETE GAMES
[/B]Most, season: 79
Most consecutive, season: 47
[B]SCORING
[/B]Most cons. seasons leading league: *7
Most points, season: 4,029
Highest average, season: 50.4
Most points, rookie, season: 2,707
Highest average, rookie, season: 37.6
Most points, game: 100
Most points, rookie, game: 58
Most games, 50 or more, career: 118
Most games, 50 or more, season: 45
Most cons.e games, 50 or more points: 7
Most games, 40 or more, career: 271
Most games, 40 or more, season: 63
Most cons. games, 40 or more points: 14
Most cons. games, 30 or more points: 65
Most cons. games, 20 or more points: 126
Most points, one half: 59
[B]FIELD-GOAL PERCENTAGE
[/B]Most seasons leading league: **9
Most cons. seasons leading league: 5
Highest, season (qualifiers): .727
Highest, game (min. 15 FG): ***1.000
Most field goals, no misses, game: 18
[B]FIELD GOALS
[/B]Most cons. seasons leading league: *7
Most, season: 1,597
Most cons., no misses, season: 35
Most, game: 36
Most, one half: 22
[B]FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS
[/B]Most cons. seasons leading league: 7
Most, season: 3,159
Most, game: 63
Most, one half: 37
Most, one quarter: 21
[B]FREE THROWS MADE
[/B]Most, game: 28
[B]FREE THROW ATTEMPTS
[/B]Most seasons leading league: 9
Most cons. seasons leading league: 6
Most, season: 1,363
Most, game: 34
[B]REBOUNDS
[/B]Most seasons leading league: 11
Most, career: 23,924
Highest average, career: 22.9
Most, season: 2,149
Most, rookie, season: 1,941
Most seasons, 1,000 or more: 13
Highest average, season: 27.2
Most, game: 55
Most, rookie, game: 45
[B]DISQUALIFICATIONS
[/B]Lowest percentage, career: ****0.00
[B]POINTS, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most by rookie, game: 53
[B]MINUTES, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most, 3-game series: 144
Most, 4-game series: 195
Most, 6-game series: 296
[B]FIELD GOALS, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most, 7-game series: 113
Most made, game: 24
Most attempts, game: 28
Most attempts, half: 25
[B]FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most, 3-game series: 104
Highest field goal percentage (minimum, 8): 1.000*****
[B]REBOUNDS, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most, 5-game series: 160
Most, 6-game series: 171
Most, 7-game series: 220
Highest average, per game, series: 32.0
Most, game: 41
Most, half: 26
Most by rookie, game: 35
[B]MINUTES, FINALS
[/B]Most, 5-game series: 240
[B]REBOUNDS, FINALS
[/B]Most, 6-game series: 171
Most, half: 26
NOTES
*Tied with Michael Jordan
**Tied with Shaquille O'Neal
***Three times (15/15, 16/16, 18/18)
****Tied with several others, but played most games of any
*****Tied with 12 others

Those are just SOME of the records that still stand... FORTY YEARS LATER.

It doesn't include his 9 triple doubles in a row, or 4th all time in triple doubles,
* or the stupendous 22 points, 25 rebounds, & 21 assist double triple double,
* or his quadruple doubles in playoffs,
* nor the 103 30-30 games (out of a league total 131 30-30 games in history)
* nor his 227 consecutive double-doubles from 1964 to 1967....
* the Man also holds the second and third longest continuous streaks of double-doubles with 220 and 133.

Dude held virtually [I]every [/I]record that had ever existed at the time he retired.
**************************************
When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S.
***************************************
Coming from a guy who watched half of Chamberlain's career - [I]nobody[/I] ever dominated the court like he did.

He stands alone with Mike & Kareem. Everybody else is some lower tier.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="7"]2[/SIZE] :rolleyes:

meanwhile his rival has 11.... :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Asukal][SIZE="7"]2[/SIZE] :rolleyes:

meanwhile his rival has 11.... :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

just like I said. It didn't take long either.

[I]"When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S."[/I]

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]just like I said. It didn't take long either.

[I]"When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S."[/I][/QUOTE]

Whenever Jordan's title of GOAT is questioned, the justification is always pure BS. To date, there hasn't been a single legit reason for it to be disputed. Only BS. Can't say I expect anything else from a bunch of bitter kids that never got to watch MJ play....:lol

[QUOTE=Straight_Ballin]Whenever Jordan's title of GOAT is questioned, the justification is always pure BS. To date, there hasn't been a single legit reason for it to be disputed. Only BS. [B][U]Can't say I expect anything else from a bunch of bitter kids that never got to watch MJ play....:lo[/U][/B]l[/QUOTE]

You do realize that you are responding to one of the oldest posters on the board who actually saw Wilt and rookie Kareem play. Right?

[QUOTE=theoneneo]Blasphemy, literally the most successful player in the sport, ever.... like, theirs no one past or present more accomplished than Mike. [B]All this he was a product of Nike bullish!t, before Jordan what was Nike? If anything he built them. [/B]Lebron is a product of Nike, their attempt to try to recreate Jordan(and it's failing horribly, fuccking horrendous clunky sneakers:face palm )

They day that Mike's legacy comes into question is the day we gotta question the sport all together.[/QUOTE]

Yeah MJ is GOAT but chill out on that part...

Steve Prefontaine and Bo Jackson contributed as much to Nike if not more. Pre was the OG kid who [I]actually[/I] was the first one to make Nike popular, and Bo Jackson was an all star in Football and Baseball promoting Nike gear, and both sports are more famous than bball.

[QUOTE=jlip]You do realize that you are responding to one of the oldest posters on the board who actually saw Wilt and rookie Kareem play. Right?[/QUOTE]

From my encounters in real life with people that saw wilt, Kareem, and Jordan play, ALL of them said that Jordan is the GOAT. I don't have a problem with someone who makes a case for Kareem or Wilt, but this nonsense about Kobe and Lebron even being close to MJ is just laughable and when I read it, I just KNOW that it's being posted by someone who never saw Jordan play.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]There isn't really. [B][U]Even on ISH, it's just 5 or 6 junior high kids that need to draw attention to themselves. Probably not even that many, as we're likely talking 2-3 kids with several alts that need attention desperately. [/U][/B]

Whenever ISH has any serious threads on GOAT rankings, Jordan wins pretty much by a country mile. Russell and Kareem are the only two that maybe get the odd vote:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350073[/url]

I'm not saying no one else has a case, but even amongst haters, Jordan is usually the consensus pick.[/QUOTE]


:lol :lol :lol :lol

On point.

lebron traveled

[QUOTE=outbreak]You didn't even mention the fact he carried the tune squad to victory either.[/QUOTE]

Repped

lebron flopped

[QUOTE=Straight_Ballin]lebron flopped[/QUOTE]

his cawk all over your moms face

[QUOTE=dubeta]his cawk all over your moms face[/QUOTE]

lebron traveled

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]just like I said. It didn't take long either.

[I]"When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S."[/I][/QUOTE]

Poor haters pretending that if Wilt had some rings more, he would only be in the GOAT "discussion". :oldlol:

[QUOTE]From my encounters in real life with people that saw wilt, Kareem, and Jordan play, ALL of them said that Jordan is the GOAT.[/QUOTE]

From what I've seen, among people who have seen all the GOAT candidates play, Jordan isn't anywhere near as overwhelmingly above anyone else as the choice for #1. Wilt is the one who gets the biggest bump compared to here, since a lot of the ones who've seen him play believe he's the GOAT, which is far from what we see in boards like this (and lots have mistakenly come to believe that what is the norm here is the norm among fans in general, as if there are many grown-ups posting here).

[QUOTE=dubeta]Weak era, expansion teams

Same excuses Jordan fans make for Russell, today's fans can make for MJ[/QUOTE]

still stronger than leflop ever face :banana:

[QUOTE=dubeta]Tbh after the stunning revelation that MJ was 1-9, i'm seriously questioning his GOAT status[/QUOTE]

lbj plays in a weak east era and his father help him a lot aka "david stern"

[QUOTE=Soundwave]That said if there's a big game and my life depended on it, gimme a Jordan or Bird 10/10 over a Shaq or Wilt or even Kareem. I want someone with ice in their veins.[/QUOTE]

I notice you left Bill Russell out. 10-0 in game 7s, with an average of 18.6/29.3 and let's say his usual 4.3 assists and estimated 7 blocks because I didn't find those numbers on a quick search.

[QUOTE=Asukal][SIZE="7"]2[/SIZE] :rolleyes:

meanwhile his rival has 11.... :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and MJ has 6, but zero without Pippen and Phil. Pippen was a really, really good second best, and a fantastic compliment to Jordan. And we know what Jackson can do with talent. Also, let's not forget what Grant and Rodman brought to the table. Jordan won three titles with a guy who is in Russell and Wilt's level of rebounding. That's big. He was also an outstanding defender. Grant was too. The Bulls could throw three great defenders at you during their title runs.

I have Jordan as GOAT, but you could come up with different GOATs depending on:

Winning: Russell
Individual: Wilt
Career: Kareem

And what do you know, those are the three guys in the conversation with MJ. I think Magic also has a case. It hurts his resume a bit that he had to retire early. And Bird had a case, but his career was shortened by injuries and then overshadowed by Jordan's success in the 90s.

Both Magic and Bird were in the conversation at one point. They might still be if it weren't for HIV and back injuries.

[QUOTE=Marchesk]Yeah, and MJ has 6, but zero without Pippen and Phil. Pippen was a really, really good second best, and a fantastic compliment to Jordan. And we know what Jackson can do with talent. Also, let's not forget what Grant and Rodman brought to the table. Jordan won three titles with a guy who is in Russell and Wilt's level of rebounding. That's big. He was also an outstanding defender. Grant was too. The Bulls could throw three great defenders at you during their title runs.[/QUOTE]

Ahaha the pippen argument again. :oldlol:

Yeah MJ needed team mates just like everyone else, is that your only argument? :oldlol:

You morons never cease to amaze me. :applause:

[QUOTE=Psileas]Poor haters pretending that if Wilt had some rings more, he would only be in the GOAT "discussion". :oldlol:



From what I've seen, among people who have seen all the GOAT candidates play, Jordan isn't anywhere near as overwhelmingly above anyone else as the choice for #1. Wilt is the one who gets the biggest bump compared to here, since a lot of the ones who've seen him play believe he's the GOAT, which is far from what we see in boards like this (and lots have mistakenly come to believe that what is the norm here is the norm among fans in general, as if there are many grown-ups posting here).[/QUOTE]

Yet you Wilt **********s always fail to give credit to his biggest rival and the real GOAT candidate of the 60's, Bill Russell. :rolleyes:

Go on keep on fapping to his regular season stats. :oldlol:

If there's anyone deserving of GOAT status other than MJ, its Bill Russell. Not that choking stat padder of the 60's. :banana:

[QUOTE=Asukal]Ahaha the pippen argument again. :oldlol:

Yeah MJ needed team mates just like everyone else, is that your only argument? :oldlol:

You morons never cease to amaze me. :applause:[/QUOTE]
I don't fully agree with his statement, but it does have merit. This is my fascination with this thread though: why is it anytime anyone makes a case against Mj, they automatically have to be morons? Like it's a cardinal sin?

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]I don't fully agree with his statement, but it does have merit. This is my fascination with this thread though: why is it anytime anyone makes a case against Mj, they automatically have to be morons? Like it's a cardinal sin?[/QUOTE]

It's generally because they have moronic reasons (everything from Pippen was the Bulls MVP to Jordan had his father murdered to he played in a weak era etc). It's actually great when people present well thought-out reasons as to why their player is their choice for GOAT. Rarely happens though.

[QUOTE=Asukal]Ahaha the pippen argument again. :oldlol:

Yeah MJ needed team mates just like everyone else, is that your only argument? :oldlol:

You morons never cease to amaze me. :applause:[/QUOTE]

You're criticizing Wilt for loosing to Russell's teams, but then you admit that Jordan needed teammates to win? Was Jordan able to lead the Bulls past the Celtics or Pistons (the first 3 times)? No. Yet Wilt is faulted for not being able to do so with the Warriors?

[QUOTE=Straight_Ballin]lebron traveled[/QUOTE]

lebron's biggest travel is from Cleveland to South Beach, and back.

I always thought it was nowhere questionable aswell, until i thoroughly inspected what for example Bill Russell has done.... by the same logic & ranking criteria people go after, he should be the GOAT and actually that should then not be questionable at all... for gods sake, the guy has 11 rings, 11 FMVPs (hypothetically very true as he was the best player/performer there) & 5 mvps.... 11 of his 13 seasons ended up with a championship, you want "the best winner"? There you have him....

I see so many double standards for MJ...

Individual overall talent/skill is compared to him, (Wilt) and immediately rings/fmvps are mentioned to try & end the discussion asap... all of the sudden stats overall individual play etc. dont matter...

Accolades are compared to him, (Russell) and immediately individual talent/skill is mentioned to try & end the discussion asap... all of the sudden rings/fmvps/mvps dont matter...

I have MJ at #1, dont get me wrong, but all i am saying is i wouldnt be mad if someone placed Russell at #1 or Wilt at #1, because i would very well understand why....

[QUOTE=Asukal]Yet you Wilt **********s always fail to give credit to his biggest rival and the real GOAT candidate of the 60's, Bill Russell. :rolleyes:

Go on keep on fapping to his regular season stats. :oldlol:

If there's anyone deserving of GOAT status other than MJ, its Bill Russell. Not that choking stat padder of the 60's. :banana:[/QUOTE]

Funny how I've [B]always [/B] mentioned Russell as a valid GOAT candidate, including this thread, when you'll see me mention him as a counter to Jordan being the GOAT (and he was the first one I mentioned), yet I belong to this category. So does Cavs and I've seen Lazeruss put him even at #1 career-wise, Phila also has him at top-2, and we're the biggest Wilt "homers" of this board. Funny how I never call Russell an "offensively invalid" player, unlike others, yet you call Wilt a "statpadding choker" (equally "correct"), yet I'm the "hater".
The ones who hate on Russell are much more frequently Jordan homers or teens and kids, not Wilt fans.
Not surprised, of course, accuracy had never been a virtue of yours when it comes to this matter, but I needed to point this out so that we keep ourselves honest.

[QUOTE=Marchesk]You're criticizing Wilt for loosing to Russell's teams, but then you admit that Jordan needed teammates to win? Was Jordan able to lead the Bulls past the Celtics or Pistons (the first 3 times)? No. Yet Wilt is faulted for not being able to do so with the Warriors?[/QUOTE]

Let's talk about the 2nd half of their careers when they both had enough help. One of them choked while the other 3peated twice. :rolleyes:

Wilt is on even close to the same level as MJ. Let it go.

[QUOTE=Psileas]Funny how I've [B]always [/B] mentioned Russell as a valid GOAT candidate, including this thread, when you'll see me mention him as a counter to Jordan being the GOAT (and he was the first one I mentioned), yet I belong to this category. So does Cavs and I've seen Lazeruss put him even at #1 career-wise, Phila also has him at top-2, and we're the biggest Wilt "homers" of this board. Funny how I never call Russell an "offensively invalid" player, unlike others, yet you call Wilt a "statpadding choker" (equally "correct"), yet I'm the "hater".
[B]The ones who hate on Russell are much more frequently Jordan homers or teens and kids, not Wilt fans.[/B]
Not surprised, of course, accuracy had never been a virtue of yours when it comes to this matter, but I needed to point this out so that we keep ourselves honest.[/QUOTE]

Oh get off your high horse, outside of all time lists Russell never gets talked about. He has NO stans, nada, ZERO! And kids who disrespect him are LBJ and Kobe stans. Jlauber/LAZ is his biggest hater, no surprise since he hates every great center not named Wilt. :rolleyes:

[B]I dont think its a clear MJ GOAT... Valid arguments can be made for Kareem and Bill...[/B]

Can somebody define 'questionable' or distinguish between 'arguable'?

[QUOTE=andgar923]Can somebody define 'questionable' or distinguish between 'arguable'?[/QUOTE]
I took it as meaning open to question. As in any other option isn't feasible, maybe I got It wrong. That's the reason for my angle in this discussion.

[QUOTE=pauk]

I have MJ at #1, dont get me wrong, but all i am saying is i wouldnt be mad if someone placed Russell at #1 or Wilt at #1, because i would very well understand why....[/QUOTE]

Nobody that has thoroughly researched and done their homework would be "mad" at putting Russell and/or Kareem over Jordan.

I do take issue with people ranking Wilt "GOAT" though. I really don't feel he was the postseason performer the guys above were.

[QUOTE=riseagainst]Wilt is on even close to the same level as MJ. Let it go.[/QUOTE]

The few people on here who saw Wilt play in person and the guy who has researched Wilt the most disagree. I'm guessing they know what they're talking about.

[QUOTE=Asukal]Let's talk about the 2nd half of their careers when they both had enough help. One of them choked while the other 3peated twice. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Wilt also played for two of the greatest teams ever. Injuries kept the 76ers from winning more titles. I'll grant you there are some questions when Wilt was on the Lakers, though.

I have AT LEAST 10 players BEFORE [SIZE="1"]jordan [/SIZE]on my GOAT list:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall][quote=HurricaneKid]
Originally Posted by HurricaneKid
Kind of embarrassing we are 5 pages in and no one has really bothered to make the case against MJ.

The biggest argument out there against MJ is the statistical calculation of impact on impact on score. RAPM is Ridge Adjusted Plus Minus. It attempts to remove who you are playing, who are you on the court with and your personal impact on score. Its a per possession calculation so sometimes you end up with outliers but MJ simply did not dominate this stat the way you would expect him to. In fact, his best season was ~+5.3. LeBron and TD have both had seasons > 10.0.[/quote]

Err, where are you getting this data from? As far as I know, RAPM was not calculated for any of Jordan's seasons, and if it was, it was likely only for '97/'98, not any of his prime seasons. Regardless, I'd like a source.

If we look at straight +/- as seen on NBA.com (which again only goes back to the '97 season, when Jordan was 34 years old), we see that Jordan led the league in +/- among starters in '97 and '98 at 7.2 and 7.5 +/- respectively. Compare that to Lebron's 1.4, 5.0 and 3.7 +/- in 2011, '13 and '14, respectively. Yes, Lebron did have an 8.7 +/- in 2012, but again that's prime James and a 34/35 year old Jordan.

Per basketball-reference.com, Jordan's SPM in 1993 was higher than Lebron's in 2010.[/QUOTE]

Still waiting on a source for this.

[QUOTE=Asukal]Oh get off your high horse, outside of all time lists Russell never gets talked about. He has NO stans, nada, ZERO! And kids who disrespect him are LBJ and Kobe stans. Jlauber/LAZ is his biggest hater, no surprise since he hates every great center not named Wilt. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

And Russell having no stans (whatever you mean by "stans") is supposed to be our fault now? This is a board heavily focused on stats and the vast majority of posters are way too young to even care about players they didn't see play. Do you even think I (and others) somehow like it that Russell doesn't get more talk?
Lazeruss happens to believe that Wilt was individually better than Russell and focuses on this (that's, I suppose, why he's Wilt fan). But some others believe that Russell was nothing more than Joakim Noah or Dikembe Mutombo. So, who's exactly more anti-Russell again? And how come you, a supposed fan of him, are never there to refute their claims?

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Still waiting on a source for this.[/QUOTE]


[url]http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/[/url]


Not sure on the calculations. I think it is probably just xRAPM. But I would also assume box score influenced +/- would favor MJ.

Which player in history has goat-level athleticism AND Magic/Larry goat-level skill (skill based on maximum adjustability and quick reactions).

Jordan.. That's it... (ok maybe Baylor and Oscar too).