Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]
look at all these dunks, in traffic, on multiple players.
[/QUOTE]

It literally looks like you found the 5 poster dunks lebron has had in the last two seasons... :roll:

literally.. why don't you find 5 more from the past two seasons and post them... of course that's impossible, because they don't exist... video for all of Lebron's dunks from the 2013-2014 season was posted in the OP.


[QUOTE]imo, lebron > jordan as an IN GAME dunker[/QUOTE]

For the purposes of your denial, it's too bad the stats prove that Jordan dunked more in games and did so at a time when it was harder to get dunks.

In 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks - at that time, dunks were completed league-wide once in every 28.7 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... but it was a lot easier to dunk - dunks were completed once in every 21.1 shots in 2013.

What is so hard to understand about this?
.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Why are there more dunks per shot now? The guys are more athletic now. Doesn't mean it isn't harder to get in there for a dunk.
...

Kobe is a better dunker[/QUOTE]

So now Kobe is more athletic than Jordan? :oldlol:

And isn't your claim that defenses are better now looking ridiculous since now you're claiming that guys are getting to the basket easier because they're more athletic? I mean, which is it?

And I love how the guy above's response to OP posting Jordan posters is LeBron doing what he does best- dunking over unsuspecting guards, one of them being 5'11 :roll:

Look at the dunk against the Bulls too, the defender is completely handicapped by not being able to physically impede Bron. All he can do is run next to him while Bron gets to the basket easily, with no resistance from a top tier defense in this era. Pathetic.

eliteballer and mehya's asses are sore. 3ball is lighting them up. :cheers:

[QUOTE=eliteballer]

The guys are more athletic now.

[/QUOTE]

So why is the dunk-per-shot data EQUAL with today's game starting in 1994?... Did guys get super-athletic all of a sudden starting in the mid-90's?

And of course when the dunk-per-shot data takes a brief nosedive again in 2000, did players get unathletic all of a sudden?

The answer is "of course not" to both questions above.

What actually happened was that there were rule changes in the mid-90's (described earlier itt by the poster PHILA) that helped free things up to make dunking easier... That that period also coincided with the largest ever increase in 3-point attempts (attempts more than doubled from 1991 to 1995), which resulted in more floor-spacing and easier, more unfettered dunking...

THIS is why getting dunks became easier in the mid-90's... the rules changes and the style of play shifted... but players did not all of a sudden get athletic as you figured was the case.

[QUOTE=sportjames23]eliteballer and mehya's asses are sore. 3ball is lighting them up. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

Might as well chisel his name on the award now. Shit is a landslide :applause:

[IMG]http://elyriact.smugmug.com/Sports/Pro-Basketball/Kyrie-Irving-Rookie-of-the/i-9LtDWmF/0/M/RookieoftheYearIrvingBasketbal-M.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=3ball]It literally looks like you found the 5 poster dunks lebron has had in the last two seasons... :roll: [/quote]

those 5 poster dunks were better than anything posted in this thread so far. look at the 3rd gif down. head above the rim WITH EASE.
[quote]literally.. why don't you find 5 more from the past two seasons and post them... of course that's impossible, because they don't exist.[/quote]

:confusedshrug:

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/20131224/4933732/lebron-james-posterizes-paul-millsap-o.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/229/files/2014/03/8_lebron_dunks_on_2.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/856205412.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://giphy.com/gifs/uVToTxLlSZbYQ[/IMG]
[IMG]http://media.giphy.com/media/uVToTxLlSZbYQ/giphy.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG]

[quote]too bad for the purposes of your denial, it's too bad that Jordan dunked more in games and did so at a time when it was harder to dunk.

In 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks - at that time, dunks were completed league-wide once in every 28.7 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... but it was a lot easier to dunk - dunks were completed once in every 21.1 shots in 2013.

What is so hard to understand about this?[/QUOTE]

not according to former players and league coaches.

the real difference is, lebron is far more strong around the basket. look at his build. look at charles said about lebron when compared to jordan: bigger, stronger and FASTER.

also:
[quote][B]“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better shooting back then, better defense now."

“Offenses are a little more complex because the defenses have forced that,” Ainge says. “In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up."[/B][/quote]

you can also read what colangelo said about defenses muddying up the game now, because they are that much more sophisticated.

what coaches and league offices say > crazy jordan mark. sorry dude.

Mehyam24 - you are posting Lebron NOT chest-to-chest dunking on someone and trying to pass it off like it is a poster.

All but one of the dunks you just posted are wide open where defenders either can't get there to contest at all, or can only give a reach-in or fly-by - these are NOT chest-to-chest posters.

You can't post Lebron chest-to-chesting guys because they don't exist.... there is too much spacing in today's game so he doesn't need to.

Stop posting open dunks and trying to pass if off as a chest-to-chest poster.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]
[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/20131224/4933732/lebron-james-posterizes-paul-millsap-o.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/229/files/2014/03/8_lebron_dunks_on_2.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/856205412.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://giphy.com/gifs/uVToTxLlSZbYQ[/IMG]
[IMG]http://media.giphy.com/media/uVToTxLlSZbYQ/giphy.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

All you're doing is proving his point with those gifs.

The only one that qualifies as a poster involves a player going for a charge instead of challenging him. The rest are just Bron getting to the basket easily with no resistance. Shaun Livingston [I]literally[/I] put his hands up in surrender while watching LeCramp go to the basket unchallenged/untouhed in one :roll:

Also, you can't get by this..

In 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks - at that time, dunks were completed league-wide once in every 28.7 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... but it was a lot easier to dunk - dunks were completed once in every 21.1 shots in 2013.

[B]Jordan got more dunks when it was harder to dunk and now there's actually stats to prove it.[/B]

dunks from the cleveland years:

[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/185335/lebron-dunking-on-timmy-o.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1230850/lebron-dunks-on-garnet-o.gif[/IMG]

when defenses are taken into account, lebron james is the GOAT ingame dunker.

:eek: OMFG at the dunk on damon jones. terror.

meyhta24 digging deep - going back to cleveland days to find Lebron chest-to-chesters...

and if you had told me you were going to do that, i would have known exactly which dunks you would post, because Lebron only has a few chest-to-chesters in cleveland too.

Jordan has more posters from 1 year of his career than Lebron had in his entire career.
.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]dunks from the cleveland years:

[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/185335/lebron-dunking-on-timmy-o.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1230850/lebron-dunks-on-garnet-o.gif[/IMG]

when defenses are taken into account, lebron james is the GOAT ingame dunker.

:eek: [B]OMFG at the dunk on damon jones. terror.[/B][/QUOTE]

LeBron, the midget assassin :bowdown:

Now look at how easily he gets to the basket since no one can impede his progress physically w/o handchecking. Dude is bee-lining to the basket in the half court.. then compare it to this:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

When has LeBron ever had to work that hard for 1 dunk? :confusedshrug:

duncan and garnett aren't midgets lol

[QUOTE=3ball]Also, you can't get by this..

In 1988, Jordan got 158 dunks - at that time, dunks were completed league-wide once in every 28.7 shots.

In 2013, Lebron got his career-high of 144 dunks... but it was a lot easier to dunk - dunks were completed once in every 21.1 shots in 2013.

[B]Jordan got more dunks when it was harder to dunk and now there's actually stats to prove it.[/B][/QUOTE]

read the links i posted via sports illustrated. byron scott, larry bird, and ainge specifically state today's defenses are tougher and the spacing is worse, especially in the paint.

also read the bit on colangelo and the grueling defenses e.g. zones and traps

[quote][COLOR="White"].[/COLOR][IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG][/quote]nice gif don

LMAO

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Might as well chisel his name on the award now. Shit is a landslide :applause:

[IMG]http://elyriact.smugmug.com/Sports/Pro-Basketball/Kyrie-Irving-Rookie-of-the/i-9LtDWmF/0/M/RookieoftheYearIrvingBasketbal-M.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]


:rockon: :cheers:

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]nice gif don

LMAO[/QUOTE]

You gonna show me any example of 'advanced defense' that made Bron work that hard to get a dunk?

You can watch the whole play here:

[url]http://youtu.be/YSuBBfFrgHI?t=58s[/url]

Knicks start out in a full court press, once Jordan catches it he's immediately double teamed on the wing, he beats that only to run into a double trap in the corner, he crab dribbles/Houdinis his way out, only to be met by a camping 7 ft shot blocker who actually challenges his dunk attempt instead of going for a charge. You'll notice he had hands all over him on the perimeter too, all of which would be called for touch fouls today.

Show me ONE example of defense more 'advanced' than that. I'll be waiting :cheers:

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]read the links i posted via sports illustrated. byron scott, larry bird, and ainge specifically state the spacing is worse, especially in the paint.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure that is not what they meant.. they would be in the severe minority for sure.

When you say that the spacing is worse today, especially in the paint, it weakens you're subsequent points because it is common knowledge that the spacing in the paint is unbelievable in today's game, due to the fact that defenders are not allowed to be in there and unprecedented spacing is created by the 21.5 three-pointers taken per game by each team (compared to 5 per game in 1988).

Anyway, this is the type of dunk Lebron can't do... he's too bulky to slide between defenders like that, plus it's pretty much a straight vert... also, Lebron would have passed it before he even faced that type of congestion - amirite?

The sad thing for Lebron, is that he can't do this at 29, let alone 35 like Jordan was at the time.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Ostertag_47f5b1aaa51700634363c3b17c56dcba.gif[/IMG]

btw.. this is what i mean by chest-to-chest.

Damn, crossed Shandon Anderson up then threw it down on a legit 7' big man.

[QUOTE=3ball]I'm sure that is not what they meant.. they would be in the severe minority for sure.

When you say that the spacing is worse today, especially in the paint, it weakens you're subsequent points because it is common knowledge that the spacing in the paint is unbelievable in today's game, due to the fact that defenders are not allowed to be in there and unprecedented spacing is created by the 21.5 three-pointers taken per game by each team (compared to 5 per game in 1988).

Anyway, this is the type of dunk Lebron can't do... he's too bulky to slide between defenders like that, plus it's pretty much a straight vert... also, Lebron would have passed it before he even faced that type of congestion - amirite?

The sad thing for Lebron, is that he can't do this at 29, let alone 35 like Jordan was at the time.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Ostertag_47f5b1aaa51700634363c3b17c56dcba.gif[/IMG]

btw.. this is what i mean by chest-to-chest.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, pretty absurd that guys are actually trying to argue that spacing isn't much better now. The elimination of handchecking, the 3 second lane rule were done specifically and explicitly to accomplish that. Guys are getting to the hole and dunking more than ever and are taking 22 3s per game. Life is great for perimeter players. They are experiencing a luxury in this era that wings couldn't dream of in the past.

All you have to do is watch game footage to see the sort of magic Jordan was pulling on a nightly basis just to get buckets in the no man's land that was the NBA paint:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1FsD9Y7NfY[/url]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UC-BBSLgS8[/url]

How can anyone with a straight face watch that after seeing Bron waltz into the paint untouched and uncontested and say that spacing is worse now? :biggums:

And all the gifs posted remind of the fact that guys would much rather get out of the way or at best try to take a charge these days instead of challenging guys at the rim. That Hibbert verticality :oldlol:

Honorable mention for the 6'4" nig[COLOR="Black"]ga[/COLOR] :pimp:

[img]http://media.giphy.com/media/lR8Tut3C7gxcA/giphy.gif[/img]

[img]http://media1.giphy.com/media/Pw6CVDnw1D03K/200.gif[/img]

[img]http://media.giphy.com/media/dsfJzt1sLzdba/giphy.gif[/img]

[img]http://media.giphy.com/media/sggjNVws3IGLC/giphy.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=fpliii]Thanks.

I actually found this after looking:

[url]www.nba.com/sixers/misc/2010_pollack_stats_.html[/url]

and filled in the missing years from basketball-reference.com (it seems there are slight difference, of a handful from your totals, so I think both are good):

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html[/url]

using the "Team Shooting" table. 2007 seemed to be a mistake (he had 5191), so I double checked, and corrected it.

Here's my data, I tried looking at it in a few ways:

[CODE]Year GP Pace FGA 3PA Dunks Dks/GP Poss/Dk FGA/Dk 2PA/Dk
1988 943 99.6 87.7 5.0 5757 6.1 32.6 28.7 27.1
1989 1025 100.6 89.0 6.6 6475 6.3 31.9 28.2 26.1
1990 1107 98.3 87.2 6.6 7011 6.3 31.0 27.5 25.5
1991 1107 97.8 87.2 7.1 7241 6.5 29.9 26.7 24.5
1992 1107 96.6 87.3 7.6 8122 7.3 26.3 23.8 21.7
1993 1107 96.8 86.0 9.0 8252 7.5 26.0 23.1 20.7
1994 1107 95.1 84.4 9.9 8515 7.7 24.7 21.9 19.4
1995 1107 92.9 81.5 15.3 8645 7.8 23.8 20.9 17.0
1996 1189 91.8 80.2 16.0 8468 7.1 25.8 22.5 18.0
1997 1189 90.1 79.3 16.8 8460 7.1 25.3 22.3 17.6
1998 1189 90.3 79.7 12.7 9318 7.8 23.0 20.3 17.1
1999 725 88.9 78.2 13.2 4681 6.5 27.5 24.2 20.1
2000 1189 93.1 82.1 13.7 8325 7.0 26.6 23.5 19.5
2001 1189 91.3 80.6 13.7 7319 6.2 29.7 26.2 21.7
2002 1189 90.7 81.3 14.7 8446 7.1 25.5 22.9 18.8
2003 1189 91.0 80.8 14.7 8248 6.9 26.2 23.3 19.1
2004 1189 90.1 79.8 14.9 8146 6.9 26.3 23.3 18.9
2005 1230 90.9 80.3 15.8 9150 7.4 24.4 21.6 17.3
2006 1230 90.5 79.0 16.0 8633 7.0 25.8 22.5 18.0
2007 1230 91.9 79.7 16.9 8321 6.8 27.2 23.6 18.6
2008 1230 92.4 81.5 18.1 9261 7.5 24.5 21.6 16.8
2009 1230 91.7 80.9 18.1 9362 7.6 24.1 21.3 16.5
2010 1230 92.7 81.7 18.1 8785 7.1 26.0 22.9 17.8
2011 1230 92.1 81.2 18.0 8906 7.2 25.4 22.4 17.5
2012 990 91.3 81.4 18.4 7324 7.4 24.7 22.0 17.0
2013 1229 92.0 82.0 20.0 9325 7.6 24.3 21.6 16.3
2014 1230 93.9 83.0 21.5 9035 7.3 25.6 22.6 16.7[/CODE][/QUOTE]
Awesome table - how would you interpret the data in your table?

For my purposes, pace ties into the equation when i compare the number of dunks for two players in different eras, because the numbers need to be adjusted for pace.

But once the number of dunks for each player is adjusted for pace, they can be effectively compared with a look at the average difficulty of dunking in that season, which are the fga/dunk stats above.

Lebron got 128 dunks in 2009 and his team played at a 88.7 pace.
Jordan got 158 dunks in 1988 (same age) and his team played at a 95.5 pace.

Adjusted for pace, Jordan's dunks are 158/(95.5/88.7) = 146.75

To see if Jordan's 19 dunk advantage over Lebron holds any weight, refer to the FGA/Dunk Stat from each year... 1988 shows a difficulty rate of [I]1 dunk every 28.7 FGA[/I], while 2009 shows a difficulty rate of [I]1 dunk every 21.3 FGA[/I].

Conclusion: Jordan's advantage is legit and actually should be adjusted up for the higher difficulty rate.

[QUOTE=3ball]The bolded above is wrong.


Year[COLOR="White"]....... [/COLOR] Shots[COLOR="White"]........ [/COLOR]Dunks[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61


So it was harder to dunk in Jordan's day, for all the reasons mentioned (no spacing, no defensive 3 seconds, more physical defense, real bigs, better shot contestion, etc, etc, etc).
.[/QUOTE]

I was just ethered. Did I use that term properly? :lol

That said, what is the source of the above? How do I find dunking data for the current seasons?

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]dunks from the cleveland years:

[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/185335/lebron-dunking-on-timmy-o.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1230850/lebron-dunks-on-garnet-o.gif[/IMG]

when defenses are taken into account, lebron james is the GOAT ingame dunker.

:eek: OMFG at the dunk on damon jones. terror.[/QUOTE]

lebron against soft center :roll:

[QUOTE=Trollsmasher]bad iso defense by the guard, retarded help by the big man and an extremly late contest by "10 inch vert" Ewing:roll:

Imagine what would LeBron do. Unlike Jordan, he would not actually be detrimental to his team's offense by jacking up 24 shots per game. Those Bulls teams would have few 120 oRTG seasons with him in MJ's place.[/QUOTE]

imagine lebron play against knicks defence,he will be in hosptital now :roll:

[QUOTE=DJ Leon Smith]I agree. Look at the sophisticated defenses and defenders that LeBron carved up in the modern era.

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg[/IMG]

vs Jordan LOL midgets!

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Trollsmasher got owned again and again :roll:

It's amazing to me that anyone can watch a sampling of random games from the '87-'92 era and then watch games from the present era and conclude that it is MORE difficult to get to the basket and finish today. No way.

And let's not even START on the unique advantages Lebron has had in Miami, with the absurd spacing, two #1 options as his second and third options to keep defenders honest etc. The lane is WIDE OPEN today for a variety of reasons, and to top it off there are zero legit big man shotblockers in the league.

And to touch on something mentioned much earlier, which is dismissed by some Lebron fans: Jordan's versatility in leaping is a DEFINITE advantage over Lebron, and allowed him to do things on the court that Lebron could never do. Jordan was an ELITE leaper off of one foot, two feet (whether off a single gather step or run-up), and off a hop step. This meant that he could get air and jump in any direction once he was in the paint in ANY situation, not just in certain situations like Lebron can. Lebron basically needs a significant straight lane to the basket to get some momentum for a one-foot takeoff in order to dunk on someone or otherwise get serious air and pull off a crazy finish. Jordan could do it in ANY situation. Lebron could never DREAM of doing a dunk like this, or getting this kind of air/explosion, off such a quick small hop step:

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Over_Rony_Seikaly_best_7eaa9998a5618610963252b80d69182b.gif[/IMG]

Or dunking on two big men off a quick hop step like this at the 14:27 mark:

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s[/URL]

No way.

[QUOTE=3ball]Awesome table - how would you interpret the data in your table?[/quote]
I'm not sure how to interpret the data. It goes without saying that dunks are less common, but there are a few possible reasons why this might be the case.

I only started watching in 92-93 (and everything I've watched from before then is after the fact) so I can't comment on the coverage players were facing back then.

[quote]For my purposes, pace ties into the equation when i compare the number of dunks for two players in different eras, because the numbers need to be adjusted for pace.[/quote]
Pace should factor in on a team level, though on an individual level I'm not sure if this is the case. Generally when there are fewer possessions use, benchwarmers and scrubs are the ones losing out. I've posted the data before, and generally the median starter will be taking a similar number of shots (FGA+.44*FTA) in any era. So I don't think it's fair to penalize MJ here.

[quote]But once the number of dunks for each player is adjusted for pace, they can be effectively compared with a look at the average difficulty of dunking in that season, which are the fga/dunk stats above.[/quote]
This is a bit of a leap, and it's tough for me to decide how I feel about it. It's a distinct possibility, but it's not the only one. As eliteballer mentioned, it's possible that the dunk became more prevalent. Maybe there are a few reasons:

1) More players wanted to be like Mike, and dunked more often.
2) Players became more athletic over time, so dunks became more common.
3) For a number of reasons, layups could be becoming less common, and dunks more common.

]quote]Lebron got 128 dunks in 2009 and his team played at a 88.7 pace.
Jordan got 158 dunks in 1988 (same age) and his team played at a 95.5 pace.

Adjusted for pace, Jordan's dunks are 158/(95.5/88.7) = 146.75

To see if Jordan's 19 dunk advantage over Lebron holds any weight, refer to the FGA/Dunk Stat from each year... 1988 shows a difficulty rate of [I]1 dunk every 28.7 FGA[/I], while 2009 shows a difficulty rate of [I]1 dunk every 21.3 FGA[/I]. [/quote]
As I said above, I don't think we need to penalize MJ for pace. There's not much of an indication that star players take fewer shots when there are fewer possessions. The analysis in my table in terms of possessions was meant to be viewed on a team level.

That being said, I don't think we can assume fewer dunks implies dunking is more difficult. This is something we have to establish.

[quote]Conclusion: Jordan's advantage is legit and actually should be adjusted up for the higher difficulty rate.[/QUOTE]
I personally think MJ was the better dunker compared to LeBron, but again, I don't think we can draw any conclusions. In order to do so, we have to do a detailed comparison.

If we're talking about 88 and 09, I think a good start would be to get as much footage of MJ and LeBron from those seasons, and to perform a detailed analysis on the coverage faced. My scouting ability isn't the best, so I think we'd need to get some outside observers to view and break down the plays.

[QUOTE=fpliii]I'm not sure how to interpret the data. It goes without saying that dunks are less common, but there are a few possible reasons why this might be the case.

I only started watching in 92-93 (and everything I've watched from before then is after the fact) so I can't comment on the coverage players were facing back then.


Pace should factor in on a team level, though on an individual level I'm not sure if this is the case. Generally when there are fewer possessions use, benchwarmers and scrubs are the ones losing out. I've posted the data before, and generally the median starter will be taking a similar number of shots (FGA+.44*FTA) in any era. So I don't think it's fair to penalize MJ here.


This is a bit of a leap, and it's tough for me to decide how I feel about it. It's a distinct possibility, but it's not the only one. As eliteballer mentioned, it's possible that the dunk became more prevalent. Maybe there are a few reasons:

1) More players wanted to be like Mike, and dunked more often.
2) Players became more athletic over time, so dunks became more common.
3) For a number of reasons, layups could be becoming less common, and dunks more common.

]quote]Lebron got 128 dunks in 2009 and his team played at a 88.7 pace.
Jordan got 158 dunks in 1988 (same age) and his team played at a 95.5 pace.

Adjusted for pace, Jordan's dunks are 158/(95.5/88.7) = 146.75

To see if Jordan's 19 dunk advantage over Lebron holds any weight, refer to the FGA/Dunk Stat from each year... 1988 shows a difficulty rate of [I]1 dunk every 28.7 FGA[/I], while 2009 shows a difficulty rate of [I]1 dunk every 21.3 FGA[/I]. [/quote]
As I said above, I don't think we need to penalize MJ for pace. There's not much of an indication that star players take fewer shots when there are fewer possessions. The analysis in my table in terms of possessions was meant to be viewed on a team level.

That being said, I don't think we can assume fewer dunks implies dunking is more difficult. This is something we have to establish.


I personally think MJ was the better dunker compared to LeBron, but again, I don't think we can draw any conclusions. In order to do so, we have to do a detailed comparison.

If we're talking about 88 and 09, I think a good start would be to get as much footage of MJ and LeBron from those seasons, and to perform a detailed analysis on the coverage faced. My scouting ability isn't the best, so I think we'd need to get some outside observers to view and break down the plays.[/QUOTE]
Mj has more Poster dunks on Bigs his first 8 seasons then LJ have his whole career. LJ barely ever dunks on players especially Bigs. LJ and his 240-60 frame seems to get knocked in the air and turned in to layups. Mj was still dunking on Bigs ages 33-35. You won't find anything great for LJ dunking in 09. LJ doesn't have a lot of poster dunks period. You can probably remember them all offhand while Mj has so many they would make a long ass video of posters and still not have them all.

Let's see I remember James dunking on KG,Duncan(He didn't jump), Old Alanzo mourning and a bunch of PGs.

When you think of Mj list it's who didn't he dunk on.
Shaq,Mutumbo,mosses,Prime alanzo,Patrick Ewing, the whole Celtics frontline, The Cavs frontline, Jazz Center,Barkley, David Robinson, Tim Duncan etc.... I'm sure I'm missing a shit ton but this is what I mean. LJ isn't known to take a large Bumb in mid air and still finished. Mj would go through 3 people and it wouldn't turn into a layup, but continued with the dunk

[quote]The lane is WIDE OPEN today[/quote]
In the OP's screenshot, Barkley leads all players in dunks over the 6 year period. It is hard to imagine how much more efficient he would be around the basket. Based on the [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8769975&postcount=41"]84 game sample[/URL] he appears to be a major outlier in NBA history shooting over 80% FG at the rim. There would probably be a lot more plays like this below, where he could just finish off penetration and not have to create everything like the Sixers years.

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfazxDAJTLk&t=3m9s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfazxDAJTLk&t=3m9s[/URL]

This may be a bad example though, both Ewing & Oakley played it poorly. Very seldom did either of them ever make defensive errors, never mind both on the same play. It is just an example of Barkley catching and finishing, which he would be able to do more often not only due to the 3 second rule, but also the offensive freedom the PG's have. At least we know on the fastbreak he will fill the lane and not just run to the corner for the 3 pointer like some do today.



[IMG]http://s15.postimg.org/8klhgc8cb/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s7.postimg.org/fbte7vr95/ug013341.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s2.postimg.org/rbifgnopl/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=PHILA]In the OP's screenshot, Barkley leads all players in dunks over the 6 year period. It is hard to imagine how much more efficient he would be around the basket. Based on the [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8769975&postcount=41"]84 game sample[/URL] he appears to be a major outlier in NBA history shooting over 80% FG at the rim. There would probably be a lot more plays like this below, where he could just finish off penetration and not have to create everything like the Sixers years.

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfazxDAJTLk&t=3m9s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfazxDAJTLk&t=3m9s[/URL]

This may be a bad example though, both Ewing & Oakley played it poorly. Very seldom did either of them ever make defensive errors, never mind both on the same play. It is just an example of Barkley catching and finishing, which he would be able to do more often not only due to the 3 second rule, but also the offensive freedom the PG's have. At least we know on the fastbreak he will fill the lane and not just run to the corner for the 3 pointer like some do today.



[IMG]http://s15.postimg.org/8klhgc8cb/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s7.postimg.org/fbte7vr95/ug013341.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s2.postimg.org/rbifgnopl/giphy.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

much better than leflop :bowdown:

[QUOTE=juju151111]Mj has more Poster dunks on Bigs his first 8 seasons then LJ have his whole career. LJ barely ever dunks on players especially Bigs. LJ and his 240-60 frame seems to get knocked in the air and turned in to layups. Mj was still dunking on Bigs ages 33-35. You won't find anything great for LJ dunking in 09. LJ doesn't have a lot of poster dunks period. You can probably remember them all offhand while Mj has so many they would make a long ass video of posters and still not have them all.

Let's see I remember James dunking on KG,Duncan(He didn't jump), Old Alanzo mourning and a bunch of PGs.

When you think of Mj list it's who didn't he dunk on.
Shaq,Mutumbo,mosses,Prime alanzo,Patrick Ewing, the whole Celtics frontline, The Cavs frontline, Jazz Center,Barkley, David Robinson, Tim Duncan etc.... I'm sure I'm missing a shit ton but this is what I mean. LJ isn't known to take a large Bumb in mid air and still finished. Mj would go through 3 people and it wouldn't turn into a layup, but continued with the dunk[/QUOTE]
I agree that MJ has dunked on a ton of guys, and as I said above, I think he was the superior dunker in general.

I was just saying that if we want to definitively prove one way or another anything about the degree of difficulty in dunking, we need to watch a ton of each of their dunks from the years we're comparing (3ball suggested 88 and 09), and break down the coverage, and compare how each guy got to the hoop.

Not a dunk, but another example of Barkley finishing in traffic. His ball handling allowed him to lead the break and finish often before the center got into position under the basket.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrGm1BoAUT0&t=1m54s[/url]

[quote]off a quick hop step[/quote]

Hubie Brown called it a [I]"bunny hop"[/I].

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQWLLpzvWA&t=1h5m4s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQWLLpzvWA&t=1h5m4s[/URL]

One thing about LBj dunking on bigs is that more than anyone else, bigs tend to move out the way when lebron goes up for a dunk because they dont want to get put on a poster. There are countless examples of this happening. I remember Tyson Chandler running AWAY from the hoop just to avoid getting dunked on by LBJ.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]It's amazing to me that anyone can watch a sampling of random games from the '87-'92 era and then watch games from the present era and conclude that it is MORE difficult to get to the basket and finish today. No way.

And let's not even START on the unique advantages Lebron has had in Miami, with the absurd spacing, two #1 options as his second and third options to keep defenders honest etc. The lane is WIDE OPEN today for a variety of reasons, and to top it off there are zero legit big man shotblockers in the league.

And to touch on something mentioned much earlier, which is dismissed by some Lebron fans: Jordan's versatility in leaping is a DEFINITE advantage over Lebron, and allowed him to do things on the court that Lebron could never do. Jordan was an ELITE leaper off of one foot, two feet (whether off a single gather step or run-up), and off a hop step. This meant that he could get air and jump in any direction once he was in the paint in ANY situation, not just in certain situations like Lebron can. Lebron basically needs a significant straight lane to the basket to get some momentum for a one-foot takeoff in order to dunk on someone or otherwise get serious air and pull off a crazy finish. Jordan could do it in ANY situation. Lebron could never DREAM of doing a dunk like this, or getting this kind of air/explosion, off such a quick small hop step:

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Over_Rony_Seikaly_best_7eaa9998a5618610963252b80d69182b.gif[/IMG]

Or dunking on two big men off a quick hop step like this at the 14:27 mark:

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s[/URL]

No way.[/QUOTE]

Lebron can do those with ease. I'll try to find some footage but I clearly remember Lebron doing similar dunks on the cavs. I think people are so used to seeing lebron bionic left leeg/one footers they are strating to convin themselves that LBJ doesn't have elite 2 foot leaping ability:oldlol:


[b]LEBRON JAMES 7 DUNKS on Toronto Raptors [/b]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6H3YgM1JHw&hd=1[/url]

@ :15 secs for a 2 footed dunk

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]Lebron can do those with ease. I'll try to find some footage but I clearly remember Lebron doing similar dunks on the cavs. I think people are so used to seeing lebron bionic left leeg/one footers they are strating to convin themselves that LBJ doesn't have elite 2 foot leaping ability:oldlol:


[b]LEBRON JAMES 7 DUNKS on Toronto Raptors [/b]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6H3YgM1JHw&hd=1[/url]

@ :15 secs for a 2 footed dunk[/QUOTE]

Lebron can't do anything CLOSE to the dunks I posted. lol @ the dunk you cited at the 15 second mark of that video. He's already running for several steps, has all the time in the world to gather, and while yes, he jumps off of two feet (no one said he couldn't do so, only that he's not as good at MJ at it), he gets pretty wretched air. Only his arm extension makes it look nice. Show me elite dunks over people off a hop step from Lebron. Good luck.

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]One thing about LBj dunking on bigs is that more than anyone else, bigs tend to move out the way when lebron goes up for a dunk because they dont want to get put on a poster. There are countless examples of this happening. I remember Tyson Chandler running AWAY from the hoop just to avoid getting dunked on by LBJ.[/QUOTE]

So it's a weak era for bigs then. Cool.

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]One thing about LBj dunking on bigs is that more than anyone else, bigs tend to move out the way when lebron goes up for a dunk because they dont want to get put on a poster. There are countless examples of this happening. I remember Tyson Chandler running AWAY from the hoop just to avoid getting dunked on by LBJ.[/QUOTE]

So this advanced defense I've been hearing so much about = dpoy centers running away from offensive players? :yaohappy:

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]One thing about LBj dunking on bigs is that more than anyone else, bigs tend to move out the way when lebron goes up for a dunk because they dont want to get put on a poster. There are countless examples of this happening. I remember Tyson Chandler running AWAY from the hoop just to avoid getting dunked on by LBJ.[/QUOTE]

Right. And then you have people who argue that the 90s were a weak era, yet you can waltz into the lane nowadays practically unimpeded with the shotblockers running away to avoid getting dunked on. Hakeem, Shaq, Admiral, Mourning, Mutombo, Ewing would be proud.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]Right. And then you have people who argue that the 90s were a weak era, yet you can waltz into the lane nowadays practically unimpeded with the shotblockers running away to avoid getting dunked on. Hakeem, Shaq, Admiral, Mourning, Mutombo, Ewing would be proud.[/QUOTE]

The funny thing is he's right. I've actually noticed that. Not just with Bron either- centers don't really challenge dunks like they use to. Nowadays they either run away (or are forced to because of the 3 sec rule), try to take a charge, or stand in place with their hands in the air like that's going to do something. Guys like Zo and Ewing were in a lot of posters because they actually tried challenging/blocking dunks. Sometimes it didn't work out for them but most of the time they either blocked or altered shot/dunk attempts at the rim. Their blocking #s are a testament to that.

Guys are afraid of being dunked on now, but before it was accepted as part of the game.