[QUOTE=3ball]get specific, or stfu with your passive-aggressive, beta ass...
say what you mean - don't beat around the bush like a ***[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I was in a rush. Had a job interview.
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[QUOTE=3ball]get specific, or stfu with your passive-aggressive, beta ass...
say what you mean - don't beat around the bush like a ***[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I was in a rush. Had a job interview.
[QUOTE=3ball][B]Mo's stats were stagnant or worse alongside Lebron, while Pippen's stats increased by leaps and bounds alongside MJ.. Pippen improved alongside MJ, while Mo didn't improve alongside Lebron - those are the FACTS.[/B]
[B]Lebron had much better help than MJ - MJ's 3rd option was a 1-time allstar (Grant), while Lebron's 3rd option was a 10-time all-star (Bosh)[/B].. No one ever had a 10-time all-star as their 3rd option, except Lebron.
[COLOR="Navy"]You don't get it - [B]the 2015 Finals proved that Lebron is not capable of achieving a decent FG% at high shooting volume - his inability to maintain his efficiency at high volume means he isn't capable of winning a championship *[I]while carrying his team/undertaking high shot volume[/I]*...[/B] The reason he can't maintain his efficiency at high volume is because he sucks in the areas required of high volume shooters - mid-range and isolations.. These are all facts.
[B]This is a lie - you're forgetting that we have stats for every play type - the stats prove Lebron is below-average at post-ups... [/B]The NBA's player-tracking data shows Lebron only posts up on 8.6% of possessions, which is 117th in the league... His PPP and fg% on the post rank 150th, and 135th respectively (Lebron isn't even on the first page of post efficiency leaders.. he's on the third page):
[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP[/url]
The only area where MJ is not better is defensive rebounds.. [B]MJ is better in every other category.[/B]
Just look at passing - [B]in the playoffs, Lebron averages less than 1 assist more per game than MJ[/B],
[B]But most importantly, it's amazing that people can brag about Lebron's Finals appearances with a straight face, when everyone is fully aware that he needed to team-hop for 5/6 of his Finals appearances.. [/B]
MJ's stats are better than Elgin's when you adjust for pace, while Lebron's are not.. When you adjust for pace, Elgin's still blow Lebron's away, [B]while MJ's destroy Elgin's.[/B]. :confusedshrug:
[/QUOTE]
1) Mislead by not taking in to consideration that Pippen played with MJ from the time he was a rookie (most players' worst season) until he was a 7th or 8th year player or so (the time most players peak)
2) Mislead because most of those all-star selections were made before Lebron. I do agree, however, that Lebron had a more talented cast around him, but Jordan's teams were more stacked in that, I believe, they were built more appropriately.
3) Mislead because you're claiming that one series proves something about an entire career of an individual.
4) Mislead because... just look at the list of "players" in front of Lebron, then come back to me. :facepalm
5) Mislead because MJ is not better in every other category... 3p shooting, for one.
6) Mislead because you referenced APG as a barometer for passing ability.
7) Mislead because you choose to apply context when it's appropriate for you. To you, numbers are numbers, so don't refute the numbers on Lebron.. He's made 5 straight Finals as the best player on his team. Jordan didn't do that.
8) Mislead because you don't know what the word "destroy" means. "Destroy" implies that MJ has Lebron beat by a very wide margin.
30/6/5/2/1 on 50%
vs
25/6/7/2/1 on 49%
is hardly "destroying"
[QUOTE=kshutts1]1) Mislead by not taking in to consideration that Pippen played with MJ from the time he was a rookie (most players' worst season) until he was a 7th or 8th year player or so (the time most players peak)
2) Mislead because most of those all-star selections were made before Lebron. I do agree, however, that Lebron had a more talented cast around him, but Jordan's teams were more stacked in that, I believe, they were built more appropriately.
3) mislead because you're saying that one series (2015 Finals) proves something about the entire career of an individual.
[/QUOTE]
1) so you concede that pippen was young and inexperienced as a rookie and 2nd year player, and that all star mo Williams was better.. We know for certain that by virtue of being an all star, mo williams was a top 24 player, or closer to that than 2nd year pip.. So mo Williams was more of a help vs. the competition than pip, which supports the original argument that mj's 89 bulls were more of a 1 man team than lebron's 2009 and 2010 cavaliers (see myth #6 in the op).
2) lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style from the SF position (lebron-ball) only requires shooters, and no team had more shooters than lebron's teams.. He even had a 10 time all star pf spreading the floor and hitting 40% from deep for him and the goat shooter in Allen.. Lebron's cast was built well around what lebron's game is (pnr/drive-and-kick)..
The real reason lebron only went 2/4 with a more talented cast than jordan had, is because this style is solvable/suboptimal and he had arguably the biggest choke ever in sports.. That tarnished him and established a precedent to blame him for future losses.. Ray Allen's walk off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render his stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga in 2014 Finals on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency, or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency.
3) it isnt just one series - lebron shot 41.7% for the entire playoffs at the higher volume... the finals was just a continuation of what he had done in the other series.. Thats why iggy and his 16/6/4 didnt deserve fmvp..
But more importantly, we knew lebron couldnt shoot a good percentage at high volume BEFORE the playoffs started.. the nba's player tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. So his poor efficiency at the higher volume could've been predicted.
I'll get to the rest of your sophistry later.. :rolleye:
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I can't keep doing this 3ball. You're too logically inconsistent for me to argue with without writing big ass essays every time.
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Some of the Jordan "Myths"...
He single-handedly shot his team down the drain against the crumbling '87 Celtics, with a .417 FG% sweeping loss series, which included a clinching game three performance of 9-30 from the field.
He quit on his team in a series that was tied 2-2, with a 4-8 performance, which ultimately cost his team the series.
His teammates were so good without him, that they went 55-27 (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, they likely would have won 60+, and a possible world title.)
He came back the following season, to the same roster that had gone 55-27 without him, sans Grant, and he couldn't lead them any further than Grant and Pippen had the year before. In fact, it is GRANT who pummels his team with an 18-11 .647 series. Unlike POS Bosh, Grant actually had an IMPACT.
Meanwhile, Lebron joins a Cavs team that had gone 17-65 with their "all-star" center, and immediately doubled their win total. Within a couple of years he dragged one of the worst rosters in NBA history to the team's first Finals in their team history.
He would take that same cast of clowns to records of 66-16 and 61-21.
He left that pathetic team, and they immediately fell to 19-63.
He joined a Heat team that had been routed in the first round the year before. He immediately led them to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In the next three years he would lead them to three more Finals, and two titles, including one in which his "10 time All-Star" PF scored ZERO points in a game seven.
Lebron leaves the Heat, and with a broken down Wade, and the career loser Bosh, who has been a NON-FACTOR his ENTIRE career, they stumble to a 37-45 record, and can't even make the playoffs in a weak conference.
Meanwhile, Lebron takes a 33-49 team to a 53-29 record, and as trip to yet another Finals. And without his two best teammates, and with his best teammate now the Knick reject JR Smith, who put up a 12-4-1 .326 series...he single-handedly led his team to TWO wins, and two close losses, against a 67-15 Warrior team that blew away the NBA.
You don't need to respond to the rest of my post, 3ball. I got my answer. You really do believe those "facts" that you tell. That was all I wanted; not to debate the merits of said "facts".
(My explanation for this phenomenon is that the Heat simply gave up halfway through the series, starting in Game 3 - when a defense realizes their offense can't keep up, there's zero motivation to keep putting forth the effort to play defense - why keep playing D when you know your offense can't keep up?... It's the same guys playing offense and defense you know - defenders are AWARE of what's happening on offense.
the heat giving up in Games 3-5 is definitely Lebron's fault - his passive approach and 17 fga per game gave the Heat ZERO chance to keep up with the Spurs - it's no surprise the defense gave up halfway through the series.. this is a stark contrast to MJ in the 1993 Finals, where his 33 fga and good efficiency BARELY allowed the Bulls to keep up with the Suns offense and eventually squeak by - both teams averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg in that series, so every ounce of MJ's 33 fga was needed - if Lebron shoots 33 fga on 51% in 2014 Finals, then he squeaks by, just like MJ did... And there's no excuse either, because Lebron never got doubled teamed by the Spurs, while MJ faced incessant double-teams).
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
Even without Jordan, they almost beat the Knicks in 1994 ECF 2nd Round.
[/QUOTE]
And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... The fall to the 2nd round was an utterly massive drop-off.. But im uour mind, basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?
Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.
Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
MJ hindered pippen's ability to be a leader
[/QUOTE]
Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm
And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
Just imagine if they replaced Mj with someone decent. Team was already a contender without MJ, thats a fact
[/QUOTE]
If people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 9-peated FOR SURE, and he's not only the goat, but he'll always be the goat (which is probably true for our lifetimes anyway, and probably ever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).
Btw, what good is it to say "[I]kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994[/I]", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.
So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with [I][U]MJ's[/U][/I] 3-peat Bulls.
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[QUOTE=3ball]You're the one that said the 2009 cavs won 19 more games than the 1989 bulls because lebron was better than MJ.. You offered no logic to backup your claim.
Because there is none.. MJ had better stats and carried a lower seed much further, while lebron had worse stats and lost in 2nd round with the 1 seed.. Like, there is zero basis to say lebron is better than mj, let alone 19 games better.
.[/QUOTE]
Adjusted for pace their stat differences were negligible. LeBron had an insane level of control over his team's offense, and played all time great defense on 1-4's. His team played a grind it out style that required him to carry an untalented offense....and they won 66 games
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
Adjusted for pace their stat differences were negligible. LeBron had an insane level of control over his team's offense, and played all time great defense on 1-4's. His team played a grind it out style that required him to carry an untalented offense....and they won 66 games
[/QUOTE]
None of this is an argument for why the 2009 cavs won 19 more games than the 1989 bulls even though lebron's stats were slightly worse than MJ's.
The 19 more wins weren't because lebron "controlled his team better".. That's just some shit you made up - I can say the same thing about any player whose stats can't be used to make my argument.
Btw, you say I'm not logical, but you lie and make stuff up - lebron did NOT guard other positions like pg or pf in 2009.. And the idea that he guards them today is also bullshit.. MJ guarded pg's FAR more often than lebron guards big men, and MJ guarded big men as often as lebron guards pg's.. MJ guarded Vlade Divac in 1991 finals and guarded bigs in other instances as well - this is the same amount lebron guards pg's.
Again, your arguments aren't true, and don't compare to the obvious and intuitive arguments staring is in the face - that the 19 more wins are due to the cavs playing worse competition and having a better supporting cast.
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[QUOTE=kshutts1]
You really do believe those "facts" that you tell
[/quote]
They're STATS, so they have to be facts - the NBA's player-tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. So his poor efficiency at higher volume in the 2015 playoffs could've been predicted.. Also, since he can't shoot a good percentage at high volume, we know he can't win a [i]championship[/i] while undertaking high volume.
Btw, you're missing an obvious factor when you talk about pace.. Pace ALWAYS slows down in the playoffs, regardless of era.. Pace was 94 in both the 1988 and 1989 playoffs, which is the same as 2015 playoffs.. Since the playoffs is always a half court game regardless of era, we know there wouldn't be any extra transition in the 80's to offset lebron's halfcourt game, which would struggle without teammates that shot 3-pointers - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.
[quote=kshutts]
Not to debate the merits of said facts
[/quote]
Facts cannot be debated - it cannot be debated that mj increased the stats of his teammates more than lebron - this is a statistical fact.
Just look at the heat.. Wade and bosh's stats were much lower and chemistry was always an issue - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and [i]brand of basketball[/i] was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are [i]capable of[/i].
Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency (2014 Finals), or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanked his efficiency (2015 Finals).
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[QUOTE=3ball]None of this is an argument for why the 2009 cavs won 19 more games than the 1989 bulls even though lebron's stats were slightly worse than MJ's.
The 19 more wins weren't because lebron "controlled his team better".. That's just some shit you made up - I can say the same thing about any player whose stats can't be used to make my argument.
Btw, you say I'm not logical, but you lie and make stuff up - lebron did NOT guard other positions like pg or pf in 2009.. And the idea that he guards them today is also bullshit.. MJ guarded pg's FAR more often than lebron guards big men, and MJ guarded big men as often as lebron guards pg's.. MJ guarded Vlade Divac in 1991 finals and guarded bigs in other instances as well - this is the same amount lebron guards pg's.
Again, your arguments aren't true, and don't compare to the obvious and intuitive arguments staring is in the face - that the 19 more wins are due to the cavs playing worse competition and having a better supporting cast.
.[/QUOTE]
LeBron was definitely guarding more than just wings in '09.
Counting stats are not the be all end all when determining impact. LeBron's cavs had a pace of 88 in 08-09.....MJ's Bulls had a pace of 97.....THIS MEANS LeBron SCORED MORE PER 100 POSSESIONS. He rebounded and assisted significantly more per-100 as well.
The difference is, LeBron got his stats on a slow, grind it out team that won 66 games....MJ got his stats playing mediocre team ball at a much faster pace.
If you just want to look at it stat wise between those two seasons, LeBron had a more impressive line. LeBron also has MJ in PER, WS, and WS-48 for those seasons. He had a higher USG% than MJ, leading the 4th most effective offense....with a USG% of 33 and an assist% of 38% (aka pass first point guard level). Really I can't think of any examples of players who shouldered a larger load for a top 5 offense.
Enjoy these facts and these nuts.
And @ your last post....obviously playing Wade and Bron at the same time is going to lower each of their respective effectiveness....they're both ball handling slashers. When one is doing what he's best at, the other by definition was NOT doing what he was best at. Which is why MJ had a better supporting cast even though prine Wade>prime Pippen if they were the best players on their own teams. You go on about Bosh being a 10 time all star, but he started earning all star bearths when he was a number 1 option. Having him.as your third best scorer is going to reduce his effectiveness. He may be better than another team's third option in a vacuum, but some guys are just better suited to being complementary players. Bosh was overqualified to be a third option, but when you've got two other guys who are better go-to scorers, somebody has to space the floor.
I think about it this way. Obviously prime Bosh>Prime Shane Battier.....but if I want a third option I'm taking prime Battier over a lot of better and more talented players.
Also Lol @ you giving MJ credit for Pippen increasing his stats. High draft picks usual increase their stats regardless. Pippen's stats increasing as he approached his prime is not as impressive as turning Mo Williams from a chucker on one of the worst squads in the league into an efficient All-star/
[QUOTE=3ball]And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... The fall to the 2nd round was an utterly massive drop-off.. But im uour mind, basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?
Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.
Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.
Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm
And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.
If people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 9-peated FOR SURE, and he's not only the goat, but he'll always be the goat (which is probably true for our lifetimes anyway, and probably ever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).
Btw, what good is it to say "[I]kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994[/I]", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.
So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with [I][U]MJ's[/U][/I] 3-peat Bulls.
.[/QUOTE]
Those last TWO quotes were NOT MINE.
Now please address MY POST...
[QUOTE]Some of the Jordan "Myths"...
He single-handedly shot his team down the drain against the crumbling '87 Celtics, with a .417 FG% sweeping loss series, which included a clinching game three performance of 9-30 from the field.
He quit on his team in a series that was tied 2-2, with a 4-8 performance, which ultimately cost his team the series.
His teammates were so good without him, that they went 55-27 (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, they likely would have won 60+, and a possible world title.)
He came back the following season, to the same roster that had gone 55-27 without him, sans Grant, and he couldn't lead them any further than Grant and Pippen had the year before. In fact, it is GRANT who pummels his team with an 18-11 .647 series. Unlike POS Bosh, Grant actually had an IMPACT.
Meanwhile, Lebron joins a Cavs team that had gone 17-65 with their "all-star" center, and immediately doubled their win total. Within a couple of years he dragged one of the worst rosters in NBA history to the team's first Finals in their team history.
He would take that same cast of clowns to records of 66-16 and 61-21.
He left that pathetic team, and they immediately fell to 19-63.
He joined a Heat team that had been routed in the first round the year before. He immediately led them to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In the next three years he would lead them to three more Finals, and two titles, including one in which his "10 time All-Star" PF scored ZERO points in a game seven.
Lebron leaves the Heat, and with a broken down Wade, and the career loser Bosh, who has been a NON-FACTOR his ENTIRE career, they stumble to a 37-45 record, and can't even make the playoffs in a weak conference.
Meanwhile, Lebron takes a 33-49 team to a 53-29 record, and as trip to yet another Finals. And without his two best teammates, and with his best teammate now the Knick reject JR Smith, who put up a 12-4-1 .326 series...he single-handedly led his team to TWO wins, and two close losses, against a 67-15 Warrior team that blew away the NBA.[/QUOTE]
3ball too scuuuured
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Go to church
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Me and Laz like:
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Ralph and laz - have your fun now - my Internet has been down for a week and will be down until monday.. I've been responding with my phone.
Regardless, I'm not going to respond to laz's bs about mj coming back - the bulls went from 3 peat with mj.. to 2nd round without.. back to 3 peat with mj... This is historical fact - there's nothing to argue about on this, other than the EXTENT to which it makes mj the goat.
As for Ralph - mj took a 6 seed to ECF and 6 games with the champion bad boys.. Lebron took a 1 seed to 2nd round and lost to a nobody team - since the stats are too close, the only argument that can be made is that mj was way better.. Lebron-ball dooms his teams to perennial underachievement in playoffs, while mj's style NEVER resulted in team underachievement.. More later.
[QUOTE=3ball][B] Lebron took a 1 seed to 2nd round and lost to a nobody team[/B] - [/QUOTE]
he lost in the ECF to a sick Magic team.
or do you mean when the Cavs lost to the Celtics with a bunch of hall of famers?
[QUOTE=3ball]Ralph and laz - have your fun now - my Internet has been down for a week and will be down until monday.. I've been responding with my phone.
[B]Regardless, I'm not going to respond to laz's bs about mj coming back - the bulls went from 3 peat with mj.. to 2nd round without.. back to 3 peat with mj... This is historical fact - there's nothing to argue about on this, other than the EXTENT to which it makes mj the goat[/B].
As for Ralph - mj took a 6 seed to ECF and 6 games with the champion bad boys.. Lebron took a 1 seed to 2nd round and lost to a nobody team - since the stats are too close, the only argument that can be made is that mj was way better.. Lebron-ball dooms his teams to perennial underachievement in playoffs, while mj's style NEVER resulted in team underachievement.. More later.[/QUOTE]
They went from a a losing team, to a winning team when they added Pippen and Grant. And MJ couldn't get his team over the hump against the Bad Boys until those two dominated Detroit in the '91 ECF's.
Pippen and Grant were so good, that they went 55-27 withOUT Jordan, and came within an eyelash of getting to the ECF's. Hell, if those two hadn't missed a combined 22 games in that '94 season, they easily win 60+, and with HCA throughout the playoffs, they likely win yet another title.
And how valuable was Pippen? With BOTH MJ and Grant gone in the '95 season, he carried the Bulls to a 34-31 record.
And how valuable was Grant? He left the Bulls for the Magic, and immediately improved them from a 50-32 team to a 57-25 team (and then a 60-22 team.) Not only that, but he was a key player in beating MJ's '95 Bulls in the ECSF's.
In fact, those two were so valuable, that when Jordan came back late in the '95 season, that he couldn't overcome Grant's loss, and his team was asily beaten by the Magic in the ECSF's (and in a series in which Grant hung an 18-11 .647 series)...the same Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.
It wasn't until the Bulls ADDED HOFer Rodman to that roster that could win 55 games without MJ, but now with Jordan, that they would go on to their second three-peat.
BTW, Pippen and Grant were winners AFTER Jordan. In fact, Grant would win a ring later on.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
Even without Jordan, they almost beat the Knicks in 1994 ECF 2nd Round.
[/QUOTE]
And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... How is that comparable to an ordinary 2nd Round team - that's an utterly massive drop-off..
Of course, since basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?
Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.
Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
MJ hindered pippen's ability to be a leader
[/QUOTE]
Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm
And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
Just imagine if they replaced Mj with someone decent. Team was already a contender without MJ, thats a fact
[/QUOTE]
What good is it to say "[I]kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994[/I]", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.
So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with [I][U]MJ's[/U][/I] 3-peat Bulls.
[B]Btw, if people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 4-peated in 1994 FOR SURE and probably 9-peated[/b]. The 4-peat alone cements him as the goat, just like two 3 peats does - he's gonna be the goat for our lifetimes and probably forever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).
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[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
lebron lost in the ECF to a sick Magic team.
or do you mean when lebron lost to the Celtics with a bunch of hall of famers?
[/QUOTE]
The Orlando magic were underdogs to the cavs - and after they upset the cavs, they got destroyed by the lakers in 5 easy games.. Orlando was a nothing team in the annals of history, which is a far cry from the all-time great teams that beat MJ (celtics, bad boys).
The 2010 celtics were post-Garnett injury and past their prime - everyone saw the Garnett injury and that team get old... Yet they still demoralized lebron and his favored, #1 seed.
Btw, here are mj and lebron's career per-100 stats on the playoffs (it's mj across board):
[i]JORDAN[/i]: 43.3 ppg.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 118 ortg.
[i]LEBRON[/i]: 36.5 ppg.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 114 ortg
.
[QUOTE=3ball]And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... How is that comparable to an ordinary 2nd Round team - that's an utterly massive drop-off..
Of course, since basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?
Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.
Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.
Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm
And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.
What good is it to say "[I]kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994[/I]", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.
So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with [I][U]MJ's[/U][/I] 3-peat Bulls.
[B]Btw, if people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 4-peated in 1994 FOR SURE and probably 9-peated[/b]. The 4-peat alone cements him as the goat, just like two 3 peats does - he's gonna be the goat for our lifetimes and probably forever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).
.[/QUOTE]
Again...those quotes were NOT MINE.
Now, please address MY post...
[QUOTE]Some of the Jordan "Myths"...
He single-handedly shot his team down the drain against the crumbling '87 Celtics, with a .417 FG% sweeping loss series, which included a clinching game three performance of 9-30 from the field.
He quit on his team in a series that was tied 2-2, with a 4-8 performance, which ultimately cost his team the series.
His teammates were so good without him, that they went 55-27 (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, they likely would have won 60+, and a possible world title.)
He came back the following season, to the same roster that had gone 55-27 without him, sans Grant, and he couldn't lead them any further than Grant and Pippen had the year before. In fact, it is GRANT who pummels his team with an 18-11 .647 series. Unlike POS Bosh, Grant actually had an IMPACT.
Meanwhile, Lebron joins a Cavs team that had gone 17-65 with their "all-star" center, and immediately doubled their win total. Within a couple of years he dragged one of the worst rosters in NBA history to the team's first Finals in their team history.
He would take that same cast of clowns to records of 66-16 and 61-21.
He left that pathetic team, and they immediately fell to 19-63.
He joined a Heat team that had been routed in the first round the year before. He immediately led them to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In the next three years he would lead them to three more Finals, and two titles, including one in which his "10 time All-Star" PF scored ZERO points in a game seven.
Lebron leaves the Heat, and with a broken down Wade, and the career loser Bosh, who has been a NON-FACTOR his ENTIRE career, they stumble to a 37-45 record, and can't even make the playoffs in a weak conference.
Meanwhile, Lebron takes a 33-49 team to a 53-29 record, and as trip to yet another Finals. And without his two best teammates, and with his best teammate now the Knick reject JR Smith, who put up a 12-4-1 .326 series...he single-handedly led his team to TWO wins, and two close losses, against a 67-15 Warrior team that blew away the NBA.[/QUOTE]
or...
[QUOTE]They went from a a losing team, to a winning team when they added Pippen and Grant. And MJ couldn't get his team over the hump against the Bad Boys until those two dominated Detroit in the '91 ECF's.
Pippen and Grant were so good, that they went 55-27 withOUT Jordan, and came within an eyelash of getting to the ECF's. Hell, if those two hadn't missed a combined 22 games in that '94 season, they easily win 60+, and with HCA throughout the playoffs, they likely win yet another title.
And how valuable was Pippen? With BOTH MJ and Grant gone in the '95 season, he carried the Bulls to a 34-31 record.
And how valuable was Grant? He left the Bulls for the Magic, and immediately improved them from a 50-32 team to a 57-25 team (and then a 60-22 team.) Not only that, but he was a key player in beating MJ's '95 Bulls in the ECSF's.
In fact, those two were so valuable, that when Jordan came back late in the '95 season, that he couldn't overcome Grant's loss, and his team was asily beaten by the Magic in the ECSF's (and in a series in which Grant hung an 18-11 .647 series)...the same Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.
It wasn't until the Bulls ADDED HOFer Rodman to that roster that could win 55 games without MJ, but now with Jordan, that they would go on to their second three-peat.
BTW, Pippen and Grant were winners AFTER Jordan. In fact, Grant would win a ring later on[/QUOTE]
The reality was...MJ had STACKED rosters that could challenge for titles withOUT him.
Lebron had pure shit rosters that were losers before and after him, and title contenders, and even champions, with him. And even in Miami, they went 47-18 in the games in which Wade missed in their four years together. He left that team, and without him...POS. And before someone mentions Love and Kyrie...without LBJ this past year... 3-10. WITH James... 50-19. Hell, he could lose BOTH of those guys and damn near beat the 67-15 Warriors by himself.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
The reality was...MJ had STACKED rosters that could challenge for titles withOUT him.
[/quote]
The bulls were 2nd round without mj, which is nowhere near contention.. Also, compared to his peers, MJ had the least help - HOF Pippen is less help than:
HOF's Kareem/Worthy
HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ
HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi
HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen
MJ 3-peated with only 1 HOF - obviously, horace grant doesn't belong in the above group.
[quote=LAZERUSS]
Lebron had pure shit rosters that were losers before and after him, and title contenders, and even champions, with him.
[/QUOTE]
In 2011, the cavs didn't just lose lebron - they lost mo Williams, shaq, delonte, zydrunas, and varejao... We've been over these facts a million times, yet you insist on repeating the same lie that the cavs collapsed without lebron - that's factually incorrect - the cavs collapsed without lebron, shaq, mo Williams, zydrunas, delonte, and varejao.
Also you fools give lebron props for horrible situations he creates - when "the decision" happened, that ****ed up the team because everyone else left with him and the team was soon gutted... In Miami, Lebron waited until the primes of wade and bosh were used up before bolting.. In both cases injuries decimated the teams as well.. Honestly, only someone that was literally dumb would turn a blind eye to these facts and believe something different.
[quote=LAZERUSS]
he could lose BOTH kyrie and love and damn near beat the 67-15 Warriors by himself.
[/quote]
The Warriors won by a comfortable margin.. Overall, the 2015 playoffs revealed that lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume.. However, the stats already showed this - the NBA's player-tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Obviously, since he can't shoot a good percentage at high volume, we know he can't win a [i]championship[/i] while undertaking high volume.
[quote=lazeruss]
And even in Miami
[/quote]
Wade and bosh's stats were much lower and chemistry was always an issue - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and [i]brand of basketball[/i] was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are [i]capable of[/i].
Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga in 2014 Finals on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency, or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency.
[QUOTE=3ball]The bulls were 2nd round without mj, which is nowhere near contention.. Also, compared to his peers, MJ had the least help - HOF Pippen is less help than:
HOF's Kareem/Worthy
HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ
HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi
HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen
MJ 3-peated with only 1 HOF - obviously, horace grant doesn't belong in the above group.
In 2011, the cavs didn't just lose lebron - they lost mo Williams, shaq, delonte, zydrunas, and varejao... We've been over these facts a million times, yet you insist on repeating the same lie that the cavs collapsed without lebron - that's factually incorrect - the cavs collapsed without lebron, shaq, mo Williams, zydrunas, delonte, and varejao.
Also you fools give lebron props for horrible situations he creates - when "the decision" happened, that ****ed up the team because everyone else left with him and the team was soon gutted... In Miami, Lebron waited until the primes of wade and bosh were used up before bolting.. In both cases injuries decimated the teams as well.. Honestly, only someone that was literally dumb would turn a blind eye to these facts and believe something different.
The Warriors won by a comfortable margin.. Overall, the 2015 playoffs revealed that lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume.. However, the stats already showed this - the NBA's player-tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. Obviously, since he can't shoot a good percentage at high volume, we know he can't win a [i]championship[/i] while undertaking high volume.
Wade and bosh's stats were much lower and chemistry was always an issue - Wade and lebron's ON-OFF stats were well-publicized and showed the heat were better when they were not on the floor together.. They still went 2/4 due to talent, but the times they lost, their chemistry and [i]brand of basketball[/i] was far worse than their opponent (dallas, spurs).. The lesser brand of basketball falls primarily on Lebron's shoulders - as the franchise player, he's most responsible for the brand of basketball his teams are [i]capable of[/i].
Ray allen's walk-off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render lebron's stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga in 2014 Finals on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency, or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll:
FACTS are FACTS my friend.
Lebron made EVERY team he joined a WINNER, and EVERY team he left, a LOSER.
Jordan QUIT, and was replaced by the great Pete Myers, and the Bulls went 55-27 (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 combined games...they romp to 60+, and with HCA, likely a title.)
Oh, and Pippen/Grant >>> than Wade/Bosh
and Pippen/Rodman >>> Wade/Bosh
We saw their IMPACT. Without MJ... 55-27, and then winning seasons, and even a title, after him.
Without Lebron. Wade and Bosh...losers who couldn't make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference.
FACTS.
[QUOTE=3ball]The Orlando magic were underdogs to the cavs - and after they upset the cavs, they got destroyed by the lakers in 5 easy games.. Orlando was a nothing team in the annals of history, which is a far cry from the all-time great teams that beat MJ (celtics, bad boys).
The 2010 celtics were post-Garnett injury and past their prime - everyone saw the Garnett injury and that team get old... Yet they still demoralized lebron and his favored, #1 seed.
Btw, here are mj and lebron's career per-100 stats on the playoffs (it's mj across board):
[i]JORDAN[/i]: 43.3 ppg.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 118 ortg.
[i]LEBRON[/i]: 36.5 ppg.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 114 ortg
.[/QUOTE]
Do you understand what "across the board" means?
-
[SIZE="4"][B][U]Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries[/U][/B]
[/SIZE]
[size="2"][COLOR="Blue"][B][I]We've found 80's and 90's dunk stats from the old Philadelphia 76'er Media Guides (links at bottom of post)[/I][/B] - they show that for the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of about 130 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993).
By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), [B]Kobe averaged 65 dunks per season, or half of Jordan's totals[/B]... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime, Paul George and Westbrook only get about 50 dunks per season.
Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).
Before anyone says it was easier to dunk in MJ's era - this is statistically false - dunk frequency (shots attempts per dunk) has fluctuated over the years from 1 dunk every 28 shots in 1988 (harder to dunk), to 1 dunk in 20 shots in 1998 (easier to dunk), back down to 1 dunk in 26 shots in 2000 (harder to dunk), back to 1 dunk in 21 shots in 2013 (easier to dunk):[/COLOR]
.
[B]Year[/B]..... [B]Shots[/B]..... [B]Dunks[/B]....[B]Shots Per Dunk[/B]
1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk
[/size]
[SIZE="4"][B]SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks[/B]
[/SIZE]
[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]
Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris
[B][U]Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras[/U][/B]
Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but [I]Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario (posters) only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time[/I]... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover....
confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - [I]only 3 posters[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJNe550OrZM[/url]
After you've watched Lebron's dunks, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m36s[/url]
RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in since they only had to defend 2-pointers.... and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).
The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan chest-to-chest posters over defenders - defenders simply weren't LATE as much as today's spread-out defenders, so Jordan was forced to posterize more guys... meanwhile, Lebron benefits from more spread-out defenders that can usually only reach in or fly-by at best, rather than be waiting there ready to fully contest.
Also, here's the very best MJ dunk compilation on youtube by mdestinier (live-calls start at 5:42):
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=0m23s[/url]
And here's another excellent dunk compilation (done by balthus23): [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysMFyE4heVo&t=1m45s[/url]
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Red"]SOURCES:[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
[B][U]Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons[/U][/B] (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)
1988... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U[/url]
1989... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U[/url]
1990... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U[/url]
1991... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V[/url]
1992... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck[/url]
1993... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U[/url]
1995... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck[/url]
1996... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck[/url]
- Dunk data from 1997-2000 taken from stats.nba.com
- Dunk data from 2001-present is from cumulative play-by-play data of basketball-reference.com
- Shot attempt data for all years taken from basketball-reference.com
- Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide was used to get cumulative dunks from 87'-05 (page 10)...
[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][url]http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf[/url]
.
[QUOTE=3ball]-
[SIZE="4"][B][U]Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries[/U][/B]
[/SIZE]
[size="2"][COLOR="Blue"][B][I]We've found 80's and 90's dunk stats from the old Philadelphia 76'er Media Guides (links at bottom of post)[/I][/B] - they show that for the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of about 130 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993).
By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), [B]Kobe averaged 65 dunks per season, or half of Jordan's totals[/B]... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime, Paul George and Westbrook only get about 50 dunks per season.
Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).
Before anyone says it was easier to dunk in MJ's era - this is statistically false - dunk frequency (shots attempts per dunk) has fluctuated over the years from 1 dunk every 28 shots in 1988 (harder to dunk), to 1 dunk in 20 shots in 1998 (easier to dunk), back down to 1 dunk in 26 shots in 2000 (harder to dunk), back to 1 dunk in 21 shots in 2013 (easier to dunk):[/COLOR]
.
[B]Year[/B]..... [B]Shots[/B]..... [B]Dunks[/B]....[B]Shots Per Dunk[/B]
1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk
[/size]
[SIZE="4"][B]SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks[/B]
[/SIZE]
[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]
Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris
[B][U]Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras[/U][/B]
Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but [I]Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario (posters) only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time[/I]... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover....
confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - [I]only 3 posters[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJNe550OrZM[/url]
After you've watched Lebron's dunks, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m36s[/url]
RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in since they only had to defend 2-pointers.... and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).
The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan chest-to-chest posters over defenders - defenders simply weren't LATE as much as today's spread-out defenders, so Jordan was forced to posterize more guys... meanwhile, Lebron benefits from more spread-out defenders that can usually only reach in or fly-by at best, rather than be waiting there ready to fully contest.
Also, here's the very best MJ dunk compilation on youtube by mdestinier (live-calls start at 5:42):
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=0m23s[/url]
And here's another excellent dunk compilation (done by balthus23): [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysMFyE4heVo&t=1m45s[/url]
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Red"]SOURCES:[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
[B][U]Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons[/U][/B] (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)
1988... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U[/url]
1989... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U[/url]
1990... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U[/url]
1991... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V[/url]
1992... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck[/url]
1993... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U[/url]
1995... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck[/url]
1996... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck[/url]
- Dunk data from 1997-2000 taken from stats.nba.com
- Dunk data from 2001-present is from cumulative play-by-play data of basketball-reference.com
- Shot attempt data for all years taken from basketball-reference.com
- Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide was used to get cumulative dunks from 87'-05 (page 10)...
[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][url]http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf[/url]
.[/QUOTE]
Players from that era dunked more often....but it was harder?
[IMG]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me0co3aume1qf1jfgo1_500.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.chartattack.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/29-Camron-NP.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/QGtxTtr.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/8H7sr7o.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/44-Dame-Sigh.gif[/IMG]
Nice scientific approach....:facepalm Did you maybe think for a second, even 2 that, perhaps [B]one[/B] reason there are less shots per dunk aren't simply due to it being easier or harder but maybe it had more to do with there being far more athletic swing men in this era?
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/oQZoA3G.gif[/IMG]
Ralph and Laz dominating 3ball.:applause:
.
[SIZE="4"][B][U]Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries[/U][/B]
[/SIZE]
[size="2"][COLOR="Blue"][B][I]We've found 80's and 90's dunk stats from the old Philadelphia 76'er Media Guides (links at bottom of post)[/I][/B] - they show that for the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of about 130 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993).
By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), [B]Kobe averaged 65 dunks per season, or half of Jordan's totals[/B]... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime, Paul George and [B][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"]Westbrook[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B] only get about 50 dunks per season.
Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).
Before anyone says it was easier to dunk in MJ's era - this is statistically false - dunk frequency (shots attempts per dunk) has fluctuated over the years from 1 dunk every 28 shots in 1988 (harder to dunk), to 1 dunk in 20 shots in 1998 (easier to dunk), back down to 1 dunk in 26 shots in 2000 (harder to dunk), back to 1 dunk in 21 shots in 2013 (easier to dunk):[/COLOR]
.
[B]Year[/B]..... [B]Shots[/B]..... [B]Dunks[/B]....[B]Shots Per Dunk[/B]
1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk
[/size]
[SIZE="4"][B]SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks[/B]
[/SIZE]
[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]
Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris
[B][U]Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras[/U][/B]
Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but [I]Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario (posters) only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time[/I]... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover....
confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - [I]only 3 posters[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJNe550OrZM[/url]
After you've watched Lebron's dunks, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m36s[/url]
RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in since they only had to defend 2-pointers.... and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).
The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan chest-to-chest posters over defenders - defenders simply weren't LATE as much as today's spread-out defenders, so Jordan was forced to posterize more guys... meanwhile, Lebron benefits from more spread-out defenders that can usually only reach in or fly-by at best, rather than be waiting there ready to fully contest.
Also, here's the very best MJ dunk compilation on youtube by mdestinier (live-calls start at 5:42):
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&t=0m23s[/url]
And here's another excellent dunk compilation (done by balthus23): [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysMFyE4heVo&t=1m45s[/url]
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Red"]SOURCES:[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
[B][U]Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons[/U][/B] (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)
1988... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U[/url]
1989... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U[/url]
1990... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U[/url]
1991... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V[/url]
1992... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck[/url]
1993... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U[/url]
1995... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck[/url]
1996... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck[/url]
- Dunk data from 1997-2000 taken from stats.nba.com
- Dunk data from 2001-present is from cumulative play-by-play data of basketball-reference.com
- Shot attempt data for all years taken from basketball-reference.com
- Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide was used to get cumulative dunks from 87'-05 (page 10)...
[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][url]http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf[/url]
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]
[size="3"][COLOR="Red"][B]there are far more athletic swing men in this era[/B][/COLOR][/size]
[/QUOTE]
[SIZE="3"][B]SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks[/B][/SIZE]
[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]
Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]
[B]Year[/B]..... [B]Shots[/B]..... [B]Dunks[/B]....[B]Shots Per Dunk[/B]
1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Red"]perhaps one reason today's game has less shots per dunk (more dunks)[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
[/QUOTE]
[B][i]Today's game DOESN'T have more dunks - there were MORE dunks in 1995 than today... In 2001, dunks went back down to their 1988 level... As the chart shows, dunk frequency has FLUCTUATED over the years.. There's no one specific era where dunks were more or less.. [/i][/B]
Btw, let me guess - you got reaaallly bad grades in school - how can you misread the numbers on the chart and think today's game has more dunks.. It's amazing - every time you respond to one of my posts, you get my post wrong - you literally read it wrong and think it means something different than what I wrote.. Horrific reading comprehension and competency.. You're misreading of this chart means you're incompetent.. :confusedshrug:
.
3ball, my dude, what happened to all your gifs? I actually tried looking up the archived ones you posted for reference, and all the links seem to be dead. :(
[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]
Ralph and Laz dominating 3ball.:applause:
[/QUOTE]
says the same loser that claims there was spacing in the 80's... :roll: :roll: :roll:
you and flpiii are the liars going around on various forums saying that the 80's had spacing... like, you can't have less integrity.
[QUOTE=3ball]says the same loser that claims there was spacing in the 80's... :roll: :roll: :roll:
you and flpiii are the liars going around on various forums saying that the 80's had spacing... like, you can't have less integrity.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/images/lists/hip-hop-gifs/2-Camron-You-Mad.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrsl62r3aN1qivigxo1_r2_400.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://mouthtoears.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/lil-boosie-gif-2.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ddKNr.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]
[B]3ball, my dude, what happened to all your gifs?
[/B]
[/QUOTE]
I use a much faster, more user-friendly site now and my gifs are better.. For example, now I'm good at comparing two scenarios, such as the defense Lebron and MJ saw when they had ball at the elbow:
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/ZN3fsu.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/BwsUCL.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2015/8Fa7R_.gif[/IMG]
[B]I actually tried looking up the archived ones you posted for reference
[/B]
[/QUOTE]
[I]Let me know what gifs you wanted to see - I probably have them on the new site.[/I]
It's funny because I have some Lebron gifs on there too, and but they were all wide open dunks, mostly after using a screen or in transition.. Whereas, more of MJ's shots were highly contested, so he had many more hangtime, dipsy-do shots and chest-to-chest posters... Lebron's shot allocation is easier (due to the spacing-inspired 3-and-D).
Of course, you can't do 3-and-D all the time, like at very high shot volumes - but unfortunately, it's a statistical fact that Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume, since he's horrible at the [i]additional midrange[/i] (shown above) required of high volume shooting.
27 shot attempts per game (the amount Lebron averaged in 2015 Playoffs) cannot be achieved on all 3-and-D - good midrange is needed to shoot well at this volume.. Accordingly, Lebron's career 37% midrange efficiency precludes him from ever shooting well at very high volumes - this is a statistical fact.
.
[QUOTE=3ball][SIZE="3"][B]SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks[/B][/SIZE]
[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]
Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Richard Dumas ................. Andre Iguodala
Ron Harper....................... Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Derrick McKey
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris
[B][i]Today's game DOESN'T have more dunks - there were MORE dunks in 1995 than today... In 2001, dunks went back down to their 1988 level... As the chart shows, dunk frequency has FLUCTUATED over the years.. There's no one specific era where dunks were more or less.. [/i][/B]
Btw, let me guess - you got reaaallly bad grades in school - how can you misread the numbers on the chart and think today's game has more dunks.. It's amazing - every time you respond to one of my posts, you get my post wrong - you literally read it wrong and think it means something different than what I wrote.. Horrific reading comprehension and competency.. You're misreading of this chart means you're incompetent.. :confusedshrug:
.[/QUOTE]
Wait
, what? How are you going to reply to me about misreading something when:
A)I didn't misread, said exactly what I meant.
B)I didn't post what you quoted either
And proceed to mention school? :oldlol: Why don't you clean them goggles off next time you read my post. How the hell do you manage to keep getting sonned in all of your threads by so many different people?
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/TIXWapu.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/GxMsDsE.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/jxiiJ8I.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/3qYWEX4.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/nwa.gif[/IMG]
You're a joke 3ball
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/jxiiJ8I.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/nwa.gif[/IMG]
You're a joke 3ball
[/QUOTE]
No mas again... I always make you resort to hating.
You're a pro at hating, i'll give you that.. you got those hater gifs on tap like my mj chest-to-chests
[QUOTE=3ball]I use a much faster, more user-friendly site now and my gifs are better.. For example, now I'm good at comparing two scenarios, such as the defense Lebron and MJ saw when they had ball at the elbow[/quote]
I posted in a thread a few weeks back, linking some of Jordan's best finishes around the rim.
Here are some of them:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsREnYw6Afg#t=4m29s[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mUtNiW0IVQ#t=5m15s[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVTbfTcsQDM#t=7m05s[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWrfxut6FJM#t=2m56s[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWrfxut6FJM#t=4m49s[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fswKeVJyewA#t=4m31s[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btcr031tD4Y#t=0m30s[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btcr031tD4Y#t=1m14s[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0koFShSRAVY#t=3m51[/url]
Mike's agility, body control, first step, hang-time, fluidity and dexterity around the hoop...just on another level.
If you have time on your hands, you should seriously start archiving some of these again dude.