If today's defenders have more "freedom", then league-wide ORtg should be lower

It's a stylistic difference

Basic scoring offenses from the illegal defense era don't cut it today

You need a 5 man offense with multiple guys who can shoot rebound and pass

Individual stats have taken a hit

As success is always the main goal

[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]It's a stylistic difference

Basic scoring offenses from the illegal defense era don't cut it today[/QUOTE]

Triangle offense won 8 championships in the 'illegal defense era', 3 championships in the new era as recently as 2010... 8 years after the new rules were implemented. The Lakers won in '01, the last year before the change and in '02, the first season with illegal defense rules eliminated.

Spurs 90s half court post up offense- 1 championship pre rule changes, 3 championships post rule changes. Spurs 80s lite offense- 1 championship in the new era.

Bron iso drive and dish offense 2 for 6 in the new era.

:yaohappy:

[QUOTE=3ball]


[COLOR="Blue"]Playoff Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):[/COLOR]

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]

[/QUOTE][QUOTE=GrapeApe]

[B]Are you familiar with the concept of age? [/B]

[/QUOTE]
Are you familiar with the concept of counting?

MJ assisted on 22.3% of his teammates shots during the 2nd three-peat, to 22.0% for Pippen..

22.3 > 22.0, therefore, MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots than Pippen did.. End of story
.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html[/url]
A few things that have not been answered:

1) The FT disparity. How does this affect ORtg?

2) For 3p, the increased % and the increased attempts. Neither is by a lot, but both are real. How minimally does this affect ORtg?

3) Why is 3ball cherry-picking the two to three year span in which the 3 point line moved closer? Oh, that's right, because that's the only time the attempts got anywhere near to current. 9 3p attempts per game before the change, 13 after. Significant changes.

4) Why is the "modern era" being defined as 2005-2011, rather than until the 2015 season?

[QUOTE=3ball]Are you familiar with the concept of counting?

MJ assisted on 22.3% of his teammates shots during the 2nd three-peat, to 22.0% for Pippen..

22.3 > 22.0, therefore, MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots than Pippen did.. End of story
.[/QUOTE]
The stats are the stats. Can't dispute that. But I have a couple questions about them.

Why does BBR call assist % "an estimate of..."? Why must they estimate?
How is it possible that Pippen averaged more assists, in less minutes, but has a lower assist %?

[QUOTE=kshutts1]The stats are the stats. Can't dispute that. But I have a couple questions about them.

Why does BBR call assist % "an estimate of..."? Why must they estimate?
How is it possible that Pippen averaged more assists, in less minutes, but has a lower assist %?[/QUOTE]
Possibly due to minute overlap, it's the percentage of team assists while on the floor. So scottie likely got a larger percentage of his while he was on the floor sans Mj. Wonder if they have splits available. Doesn't make sense though since Mj was a "full time off ball player".....

[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]It's a stylistic difference

Basic scoring offenses from the illegal defense era don't cut it today

You need a 5 man offense with multiple guys who can shoot rebound and pass

Individual stats have taken a hit

As success is always the main goal[/QUOTE]
I somewhat agree. Most of the guys here aren't taking into account the rules changes were made to spice up the post jordan era scoring drought. Once the changes were made scoring skyrocketed in an adjustment period. Offense was given much more leeway without the defense knowing how to deal with it, nor being properly prepared to defend it. New offensive strategy gives way to new defensive strategy and vise versa.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]Possibly due to minute overlap, it's the percentage of team assists while on the floor. So scottie likely got a larger percentage of his while he was on the floor sans Mj. Wonder if they have splits available. Doesn't make sense though since Mj was a "full time off ball player".....[/QUOTE]
The only thing I can think of is that when Pippen sat but Jordan played, Jordan got nearly every assist for the Bulls. Which, considering his ball-hogging-but-apparently-off-ball ways, makes sense and is pretty realistic. Would artificially increase Jordan's assist % in a fashion.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/hGU0TEo.jpg[/IMG]

3ball is a joke. Don't feed the troll

[QUOTE=kshutts1]The only thing I can think of is that when Pippen sat but Jordan played, Jordan got nearly every assist for the Bulls. Which, considering his ball-hogging-but-apparently-off-ball ways, makes sense and is pretty realistic. Would artificially increase Jordan's assist % in a fashion.[/QUOTE]
Yeah something like that. I still can't believe they push this off ball bull anyway. I'm sure when either were on the floor without the other, they got nearly all the assists. But whenever Mj was on the floor, he got what he wanted screw the offense. If he wanted a clearout he was getting it. If he wanted to bring the ball, up he was. No different than any other star.

I wonder whats the correlations between ORtg, DRtg, and the average age on the roster of championship teams.

it would certainly be more interesting if we were to include how that rating goes up or down in the following year to see if we would be able to determine an indicator.


since the change of variance of age/athleticism/versatility during each draft tends to remain minimal. - the market efficiency theory

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]Several years ago the Eagles made 5 straight NFC conference games JUST BECAUSE they were the only team to understand that the split between run and pass should lean heavily towards pass. It was a market inefficiency.

In the NBA that inefficiency is the 3 pt shot.

In 85/86 Larry Bird led an all time great team in the Celtics to the title. He won the MVP and led the NBA in 3pt FGs made. With 82. The entire Celtics team made 138, less than half as many as Steph himself made last year; the all time team made fewer as a team than Terrence Ross or Caldwell-Pope alone made last season.

Last year, 90 players made more 3 pters than Bird did in his quintessential season. Robert Covington made 167, almost eclipsing Bird best TWO YEAR RUN in 3s made. And he started the season in the NBDL. He also shot .374, just .002 behind Bird's career 3pt%.

Today's 3 pt shooters are simply A LOT better than they were even a few years ago. And that shooting has completely changed the geometry of basketball. Defenders have to cover so much more ground.[/QUOTE]

Great post

[QUOTE=3ball]Are you familiar with the concept of counting?

MJ assisted on 22.3% of his teammates shots during the 2nd three-peat, to 22.0% for Pippen..

22.3 > 22.0, therefore, MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots than Pippen did.. End of story
.[/QUOTE]

Are you really that dense? You are making my point for me. There was a larger disparity between MJ and Pippen's assist % in the first 3-peat. MJ's assist totals and per game averages were also higher in the first 3-peat. In the second 3-peat, MJ's assist totals and per game averages dropped. Pippen's numbers were higher in both categories. In addition, the gap between MJ and Pippen's assist % dropped to the point of being nearly identical.

Based on the FACTS that I just presented, Pippen took on a larger playmaking role in the second 3-peat than he did in the first 3-peat. There is no disputing this and the numbers back it up. It didn't happen by accident either, it was by design. Jordan at ages 33-35 was no longer capable of being the primary playmaker and scorer every night. This is in no way a knock against Jordan. As great as he was he was not impervious to aging. Not only that, Pippen had established himself as an outstanding passer and playmaker. MJ was all about winning and he knew that ceding some of his responsibilities (to another all time great) would help the Bulls win more championships.

[QUOTE=3ball]


[B]Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
[/B]
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[B]Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"][I] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact
[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE]

.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=GrapeApe]

[B]Pippen took on a larger playmaking role in the second 3-peat than he did in the first 3-peat. [/B]

[/QUOTE]
Who gives a shit.. That doesn't change the fact that MJ assisted on a higher percentage of teammates' shots than Pippen.

Considering that he assisted on a higher percentage of teammate shots AND scored between 50-70% more - this makes MJ the primary playmaker on the Bulls.. There's no argument the other way.

Btw, see more MJ myths exposed [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384304]here[/url]... See many unknown observations on Lebron's game [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384848]here[/url]:
.

[QUOTE=3ball]Who gives a shit.. That doesn't change the fact that MJ assisted on a higher percentage of teammates' shots than Pippen.

Considering that he assisted on a higher percentage of teammate shots AND scored between 50-70% more - this makes MJ the primary playmaker on the Bulls.. There's no argument the other way.

Btw, see more MJ myths exposed [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384304]here[/url]... See many unknown observations on Lebron's game [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384848]here[/url]:
.[/QUOTE]

I'm not all that familiar with assist %, but you're clinging to a 0.3 differential. It's absurd. That's at best a negligible difference and by no means statistically significant. Given the fact that Pippen's assist totals and per game averages were higher, is it not reasonable to say that Jordan and Pippen shared playmaking responsibilities fairly evenly? Why is that so hard to admit? Also, I'm not sure why you're citing scoring numbers since that's completely irrelevant. In fact, Jordan having more scoring responsibilities is central to MY argument. That is precisely the reason he shared playmaking duties.

I'm a 90's kid and a huge Jordan fan. Nothing I have said paints Jordan in a bad light whatsoever. Jordan himself would say the exact same things.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]I really don't see what the counter argument is- the league wasn't trying to make it harder for players/teams to score when they instituted the rule changes in the beginning and middle of the last decade. The people in charge of the changes [I]explicitly[/I] told us that the aim was to open up the game more, facilitate more scoring... and that's exactly what happened. Both individual and team scoring went up noticeably from the mid-late 90s.

In '00-'01, the last year before the illegal defense/3-second violation rule changes, the league was averaging 95 PPG on c. 47% eFG. By 2014, with the pace remaining stagnant in the 91-93 range as it had been in the seasons pre changes, the league was averaging 101 PPG on 50% eFG. Teams were scoring more, on better percentages, playing the same exact pace as the pre-rule change era.

During the 90s, only 2 players averaged at least 30 PPG- Michael Jordan and Karl Malone. Malone only accomplished the feat once.

From '00-'10, 6 different players reached the 30 PPG plateau, 3X as many as the 90s produced... 3 alone in '05-'06 (first season the NBA eliminate hand-checking on the perimeter). All of them were perimeter players and 2 of them- Allen Iverson and Kobe Bryant who racked up a combined 6 scoring titles and peaked at the same time with 33 and 35 PPG respectively... were drafted in 1996. Their peak scoring during the 90s was 20-27 PPG.

Following the rule changes, teams scored more on better percentages, individual player PPG (specifically perimeter players) skyrocketed.

The NBA got its wish.

Really... what is there to argue? :biggums:[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://media.giphy.com/media/4lsBBIvwGyTo4/giphy.gif[/IMG]

i could ether every mj fanboy in here right now.

just say when :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]i could ether every mj fanboy in here right now.

just say when :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Hit em wif that shit dog

[QUOTE=GrapeApe]

I'm not all that familiar with assist %, but [B]you're clinging to a 0.3 differential.[/B]

[/QUOTE]
And a 50-100% more scoring..

I actually [I]understated[/I] it earlier when I said MJ scored 50-70% more than Pippen... MJ literally DOUBLED Pippen's scoring much of the time, along with assisting on a higher proportion of teammate shots.

Of course, during the first 3-peat, MJ's assist percentage was a whopping 8 points higher (31.1 to 23.3) - SO MJ SCORED TWICE AS MUCH AND ASSISTED 33% MORE... :eek:
.

[QUOTE=3ball]And a 50-100% more scoring..

I actually [I]understated[/I] it earlier when I said MJ scored 50-70% more than Pippen... MJ literally DOUBLED Pippen's scoring much of the time, along with assisting on a higher proportion of teammate shots.

Of course, during the first 3-peat, MJ's assist percentage was a whopping 8 points higher (31.1 to 23.3) - SO MJ SCORED TWICE AS MUCH AND ASSISTED 33% MORE... :eek:
.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: for all that talk about school we can see who failed math bro. I mean assist [B]percentage[/B] is already a percentage.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]:oldlol: for all that talk about school we can see who failed math bro. I mean assist [B]percentage[/B] is already a percentage.[/QUOTE]
ooooooohhhh... you got me... now you can sleep

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]i could ether every mj fanboy in here right now.

just say when :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://media.giphy.com/media/4lsBBIvwGyTo4/giphy.gif[/IMG]