[QUOTE=plowking]Yep. The guy playing state level basketball was a basketball nerd. Just a 6'3 nerd who could windmill at 17. [B]I'm sure you were doing cooler things[/B]. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Probably rubbing one out to MJ's posters.
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[QUOTE=plowking]Yep. The guy playing state level basketball was a basketball nerd. Just a 6'3 nerd who could windmill at 17. [B]I'm sure you were doing cooler things[/B]. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Probably rubbing one out to MJ's posters.
[QUOTE=aj1987]Probably rubbing one out to MJ's posters.[/QUOTE]
:yaohappy:
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Scottie at age 38 was made point of the struggling Blazers and the team suddenly went 30-8 with him doing it. Being a point guard is not just stacking assists. Scottie was a great leader....a great teammate...he knew the best position to put his guys...he knew how to keep everyone happy...he could set any tempo...he knew when to score. Pat Riley was talking about him dominating games that year when hed have like 12/7. I remember because we had topics on if Pippen was the best point in the West....at 38.
He straight up became an every night point guard at 38 and made his team better overnight.
Who gives a shit how many assists he averaged doing it? Are you playing to win or accumulate stats? Even all time great scorers known previously as ballhogs like Mike and Wilt proved they could just decide to pass up shots and make teammates shoot to stack assists. Wilt led the NBA. Doesn't mean hes a better point guard than Lenny Wilkens.
It means he averaged a bunch of assists for a while.
They aren't the same thing.
[B]
Scottie wouldn't average 11 assists because he wouldn't give a shit. He would just try to put people in the best position to have success.[/B]
Its been shown time and time again in the NBA that you can bullshit your way to assists that don't help your team.
That isn't what Pippen would attempt to do. But he would be a better team leader and runner of an offense than a lot of people getting more assists.
Marbury can average 9-10 assists. Id take Pippen as my point 100% of the time.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
[B]Scottie wouldn't average 11 assists because he wouldn't give a shit. He would just try to put people in the best position to have success.
[/B]
[/QUOTE]
Pippen isn't capable of averaging 11 assists OR playing point guard because he can't break his man down off-the-dribble in the halfcourt and get consistent lane penetration the way every other every PG and double-digit assist player in history did as a standard.
[QUOTE=3ball]Pippen isn't capable of averaging 11 assists OR playing point guard because he can't break his man down off-the-dribble in the halfcourt and get consistent lane penetration the way every other every PG and double-digit assist player in history did as a standard.[/QUOTE]
Another reason he wouldn't is he wouldn't want to risk you calling him suboptimal, so he'd steer clear of it.
He wasn't the type of player to rack up 11+ assists a night. He actually played point in their title years, and even without Mike circa 1994 and most of 1995. If Scottie made an emphasis to pass the ball and quit playing defense, then sure. But that wouldn't have any benefit on the team, nor Scottie who was all about winning.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Yeah, only an idiot would call Wade a better passer.
Some of Mike's best passes have come from trying to score, but there are those where dude is just setting people up with the proverbial spoon feed.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM[/url]
Wade might have 2 maybe 3 quarters of that ability. If that.[/QUOTE]
Wade is actually a really good passer. Probably in the same tier with MJ, but I agree with you that he's better. That video is basketball porn BTW :applause:
I think if we were to simply bring out the comparisons of small forwards, and thus having T-Mac and Grant Hill being mentioned.
T-Mac while having arguably one of the best first step ever, was most likely going to have to carry the ball up once that move is made.
Grant Hill while being just about the same length, perhaps similar athleticism, had the ball handling skills where he may not cross by you completely, but the defender is also naturally shifted with him to stop the direct path for the basket. Which translated into him being the better assist man.
Lebron could probably cross by you and stop while keeping the dribble alive, but if this move were to made sense for him, it is only because he is physically strong enough for any shot attempt near the basket. hence you don't see the slashers going underneath the basket, but maybe if he ever played with any bigs who were smart enough to switch side offensively for the easy lay in.
as for Pippen, and the fact that I never watched him play much, he didn't seem to be the type of scorer who inherently made his teammates to be in better scoring position based on opposing pre-game coaching adjustments. I suppose point guards who had averaged decent amount of assist during their prime years could argue that by having to face with the second defender can be called as a 'partial double team', so as to who is the second defender they face and whether or not the mismatch becomes an even greater advantage or disadvantage, determined their scoring and assist capability.
He probably could have averaged 11 assists per game for a 45-50 win team who has the potential of a 60 win season.
also didn't feel like getting in depth about the Lebron/Wade/Bosh issue
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[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]Offensive Win shares is literally the calculation of those things.[/QUOTE]
Of what things? Points generated? Or the "assist opportunities"?
Because if it's points generated, then that just shows how flawed the stat is.
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[SIZE="4"]All Games of MJ vs. Michael Cooper, [I]both 30+ MPG[/I][/SIZE]
[B][COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR]Date[COLOR="White"]............[/COLOR]MP[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR]FG%[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]REB[COLOR="White"][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][/COLOR]AST[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR]PTS
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Michael Jordan... 11/28/86... 45:00:00.......0.44.......10........3.........41
Michael Cooper.. 11/28/86... 32:00:00.......0.50........3.........4.........11
Michael Jordan... 12/20/88.. 39:00:00.......0.48........7.........8.........42
Michael Cooper.. 12/20/88.. 30:00:00.......0.50........4.........4..........9
Michael Jordan.... 3/21/89... 41:00:00.......0.35........8........16........21
Michael Cooper... 3/21/89... 31:00:00.......0.67........4.........8..........9
Michael Jordan... 12/19/89.. 44:00:00.......0.52........7.........5.........37
Michael Cooper.. 12/19/89... 33:00:00.......0.22........4.........3.........5
[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]MJ's Averages: 35.1 PPG, 8.0 RPG, 8.0 APG, 45.2% FG[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[I]Source: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=coopemi01[/url][/I]
[SIZE="4"][U]Footage of MJ vs. Cooper[/SIZE]:[/U]
[I][SIZE="3"][url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11297486&postcount=42][u]OFF-BALL[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11296029&postcount=30][u]ISOLATIONS[/u][/url][/SIZE][/I]
[SIZE="4"]MJ's career averages vs. other DPOY wing defenders[/SIZE] [SIZE="3"](source data is linked)[/SIZE]:
MJ vs. DPOY [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=moncrsi01][u]Sidney Moncrief[/u][/url]: 31.6 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404][u]Michael Cooper[/u][/url]: 35.1 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=roberal01][u]Alvin Robertson[/u][/url]: 34.7 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01][u]Gary Payton[/u][/url]: 30.5 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=rodmade01][u]Dennis Rodman/Joe Dumars[/u][/url]: 31.8 PPG
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[B]A few examples of MJ getting doubled
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[QUOTE=3ball]grant hill, mj, kobe, lebron, and possibly tmac have the necessary ballhandling and passing ability to average 10+ assists for a season, but only if they played in a suitable offense that allowed ball-domination (not the triangle)..
They would also have to START at point guard for their teams and therefore didn't share ballhandling duties with say, Mo Williams or BJ Armstrong.
Otoh, Pippen doesn't have the ballhandling capability to do what these guys could do AND DID (i.e. Lebron's 12 game stretch of 30/7/11... see MJ's 24 game stretch of 30/9/11 and 1991 Finals of 33/7/11).[/QUOTE]
so grant hill, mj, kobe, lebron and possibly Tmac can do it.
but Scottie Pippen doesn't have the ballhandling capability to maybe average 11-13/7/11 for a full season