Michael Jordan in Today's League: Better or Worse?

[QUOTE=miles berg]Lol, no. I've been a hardcore fan for four decades. The league is at its lowest point since pre Magic/Bird days. Exactly 2 stars in this league today. No depth. Guys like Harrison Barnes and Tristan Thompson being offered star money because the league is so weak.[/QUOTE]

They're getting offered star money because that isn't going to be star money in a year :facepalm salary cap is going to go up by like 40%

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Harden and Westbrook just both put up 25 ppg to 27 ppg almost exclusively on free throws and drives. No mid range, post game or truly refined scoring skill. And MJ would score less? Um, OK kid. Prisoner of the moment this kid.[/QUOTE]

Harden took 38% of his shots from 3. Westbrook chucked and pushed it in semi-transition and scored 28ppg on poor efficiency on a team without other offensive threats.

No one is scoring 40ppg in todays league. Nobody takes enough shots, because ISO scoring has lost a lot of efficiency. Good teams swing the ball, and break down the D for open shots.

It's a 3 point shooting league, and that was MJ's weakest area on offense, no?

I still say he'd be the best in the league, but he'd have to take 7-8 more shots per game than the current league leaders in shots to score 40 points, even if he had insane efficiency. He'd have to have the highest usg% of all time unless he was scoring at nearly 70 TS%. He scored 32ppg on 22fga in his highest efficiency season, and that was in the no-D, fastbreak 80's. MJ is on record as saying the zone takes away from individual stars, and we've seen that. The best stars today are the guys that share the ball more than any other time in NBA history.

MJ is the goat, but if you actually believe he'd have 70% TS or have 45% usg you're delusional.

I say MJ would have a peak season in today's league of 29ppg on 63% TS, with 7.5 apg and Dpoy defense (aka, clearly the best player in the league).


Also, people are giving Harden so much hate! He is one of the greatest passing wings I've ever seen. His ability to shoot 3's off the dribble makes his defender have to guard him closely far from the hoop, and his passing ability makes it hard to double him. This means that with his epic handle, he can essentially get past his man at will. He stretches defenses to an insane level, because the only strategy to beat him is rough fouls that don't get called, or hoping his shot is off. Last season he shot 7 3's per game, and only 51% of his makes were assisted. That means he's creating really high % looks at will.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]worse


this is a shooters league

the paint is clogged

PGs are the main ball dominant guys now

team flow and less isolation

less coaches willing to allow mid range game


back to the basket post up games are obsolete



jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him

nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring[/QUOTE]

You had a diet coke version of MJ(Wade) just put up 30ppg on 49% as recently as 6 years ago with an inferior mid-range game. Both Lebron and Wade in their peaks were 27 to 30 ppg guys without having to rely on an abundance of 3 pointers. Why would MJ be any different, when at his peak he was both an elite midrange shooter and slasher? Midrange hasn't gone anywhere, and you just had a slasher with a streaky midrange shot win the scoring title. How does any of this translate to MJ being worse off today? James fcuking Harden can average 27 ppg and he's several times worse than MJ, yet we're to believe that MJ can't tack on an extra 5 points to what Harden showed last year?

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]You had a diet coke version of MJ(Wade) just put up 30ppg on 49% as recently as 6 years ago with an inferior mid-range game. Both Lebron and Wade in their peaks were 27 to 30 ppg guys without having to rely on an abundance of 3 pointers. Why would MJ be any different, when at his peak he was both an elite midrange shooter and slasher? Midrange hasn't gone anywhere, and you just had a slasher with a streaky midrange shot win the scoring title. How does any of this translate to MJ being worse off today? James fcuking Harden can average 27 ppg and he's several times worse than MJ, yet we're to believe that MJ can't tack on an extra 5 points to what Harden showed last year?[/QUOTE]

"several times worse than MJ"
maybe if you're talking about the full package (D)

But Harden's greatest strength is his ability to shoot 3's off the bounce, and his great floor vision. This guarantees him 1-on-1's with a defender that has to guard him at the 3 point line. He's absolutely built for this era.


Mid range and post game didn't go anywhere.....but if MJ is getting most of his points from those area's, his team is going to be playing at a pretty slow pace. No 40ppg season.

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]They're getting offered star money because that isn't going to be star money in a year :facepalm salary cap is going to go up by like 40%



Harden took 38% of his shots from 3. Westbrook chucked and pushed it in semi-transition and scored 28ppg on poor efficiency on a team without other offensive threats.

No one is scoring 40ppg in todays league. Nobody takes enough shots, because ISO scoring has lost a lot of efficiency. Good teams swing the ball, and break down the D for open shots.

It's a 3 point shooting league, and that was MJ's weakest area on offense, no?

I still say he'd be the best in the league, but he'd have to take 7-8 more shots per game than the current league leaders in shots to score 40 points, even if he had insane efficiency. He'd have to have the highest usg% of all time unless he was scoring at nearly 70 TS%. He scored 32ppg on 22fga in his highest efficiency season, and that was in the no-D, fastbreak 80's. MJ is on record as saying the zone takes away from individual stars, and we've seen that. The best stars today are the guys that share the ball more than any other time in NBA history.

MJ is the goat, but if you actually believe he'd have 70% TS or have 45% usg you're delusional.

I say MJ would have a peak season in today's league of 29ppg on 63% TS, with 7.5 apg and Dpoy defense (aka, clearly the best player in the league).


Also, people are giving Harden so much hate! He is one of the greatest passing wings I've ever seen. His ability to shoot 3's off the dribble makes his defender have to guard him closely far from the hoop, and his passing ability makes it hard to double him. This means that with his epic handle, he can essentially get past his man at will. He stretches defenses to an insane level, because the only strategy to beat him is rough fouls that don't get called, or hoping his shot is off. Last season he shot 7 3's per game, and only 51% of his makes were assisted. That means he's creating really high % looks at will.[/QUOTE]
No body said anything about no 70% TS and KD just averged 32 ppg 2 season ago from December to the end of the season. No thats not his weakest area. Mj shot 40% in his first 3 peat from 3 range. The point is you don't need a 3 just like Wade didn't when he averged 30 ppg. Same way Mj still averged 30 ppg in 96 even through 3 point taken nearly doubled from 86 to 96.

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]"several times worse than MJ"
maybe if you're talking about the full package (D)

But Harden's greatest strength is his ability to shoot 3's off the bounce, and his great floor vision. This guarantees him 1-on-1's with a defender that has to guard him at the 3 point line. He's absolutely built for this era.


Mid range and post game didn't go anywhere.....but if MJ is getting most of his points from those area's, his team is going to be playing at a pretty slow pace. No 40ppg season.[/QUOTE]
Even if he doesn't get 40 ppg, still can get 33-37 ppg. Harden has never averged 30 ppg and probably isn't capable. Durant did it just 2 seasons ago.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]You had a diet coke version of MJ(Wade) just put up 30ppg on 49% as recently as 6 years ago with an inferior mid-range game. Both Lebron and Wade in their peaks were 27 to 30 ppg guys without having to rely on an abundance of 3 pointers. Why would MJ be any different, when at his peak he was both an elite midrange shooter and slasher? Midrange hasn't gone anywhere, and you just had a slasher with a streaky midrange shot win the scoring title. How does any of this translate to MJ being worse off today? [B]James fcuking Harden can average 27 ppg and he's several times worse than MJ, yet we're to believe that MJ can't tack on an extra 5 points to what Harden showed last year?[/B][/QUOTE]

:no:

James 'Toni Kukoc' Harden = Michael Jordan.

If James Harden can't do it, it can't be done. Nevermind that a healthy Durant on a championship contender with a budding scoring champion on his squad just put up 32 PPG on 21 FGA and had a 5 PPG lead over the #2 scorer a season ago. Nevermind that Kobe and Iverson, guys who were drafted/played in Jordan's era saw a healthy surge in their PPG once the rules were modified to what they are now... those guys put up 33 and 35 PPG. Michael Jordan would buck the trend of perimeter players seeing career scoring highs across the board following the rule changes.

Michael Jordan could only score as much as this generation's Toni Kukoc.

True Story.

[QUOTE=juju151111]No body said anything about no 70% TS and KD just averged 32 ppg 2 season ago from December to the end of the season. No thats not his weakest area. [B]Mj shot 40% in his first 3 peat from 3 range.[/B] The point is you don't need a 3 just like Wade didn't when he averged 30 ppg. Same way Mj still averged 30 ppg in 96 even through 3 point taken nearly doubled from 86 to 96.[/QUOTE]

not true.

and his only good 3 point seasons with volume came with a short line.

KD is one of the GOAT scorers. scored 32 ppg on 64% TS and a league leading 33 usg%, so yeah, to score 40ppg He'd either have to lead the league in USG by a HUGE margin, or have the highest perimeter TS% from a 1st option EVER by a huge margin.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]:no:

James 'Toni Kukoc' Harden = Michael Jordan.

If James Harden can't do it, it can't be done. Nevermind that a healthy Durant on a championship contender with a budding scoring champion on his squad just put up 32 PPG on 21 FGA and had a 5 PPG lead over the #2 scorer a season ago. Nevermind that Kobe and Iverson, guys who were drafted/played in Jordan's era saw a healthy surge in their PPG once the rules were modified to what they are now... those guys put up 33 and 35 PPG. Michael Jordan would buck the trend of perimeter players seeing career scoring highs across the board following the rule changes.

Michael Jordan could only score as much as this generation's Toni Kukoc.

True Story.[/QUOTE]

Blatant disrespect for Harden. Can't take anything you say seriously. Defenses changed slower than the rule changes. After 2008 perimeter players scoring dropped off again as teams figured out how to use defensive freedom to slow down guys like that.

poor man's Tony Allen.

:confusedshrug:

better

the answer is simple. if dwade can do what he did in 09, mj could do it a bit better. superior slasher, superior mid range, much more superior post game, better iq, and a better motor.

look at the rules too. the rules were changed to allow better penetration. and whats jordan's biggest strength? penetration.

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]not true.

and his only good 3 point seasons with volume came with a short line.

KD is one of the GOAT scorers. scored 32 ppg on 64% TS and a league leading 33 usg%, so yeah, to score 40ppg He'd either have to lead the league in USG by a HUGE margin, or have the highest perimeter TS% from a 1st option EVER by a huge margin.



Blatant disrespect for Harden. Can't take anything you say seriously. Defenses changed slower than the rule changes. After 2008 perimeter players scoring dropped off again as teams figured out how to use defensive freedom to slow down guys like that.[/QUOTE]
I meant in the playoffs. He shot 38% in 91-93. No it didn't he shot 37% the first year he took alot in 90. All he has to do is take more shots then KD and keep his Ts% high. You get more fts in this era.

How did it slow down Wade in the very next season he averaged 30 ppg in 09. How did it slow down Kd in 10 when he had 30 ppg?

[QUOTE=juju151111]I meant in the playoffs. He shot 38% in 91-93. No it didn't he shot 37% the first year he took alot in 90. All he has to do is take more shots then KD and keep his Ts% high. You get more fts in this era.

How did it slow down Wade in the very next season he averaged 30 ppg in 09. How did it slow down Kd in 10 when he had 30 ppg?[/QUOTE]

[B]30 points is a lot different than 40 points.[/B] Both of those guys are probably top-25 scorers all time. Wade did it on a team that had 22 year old Mario Chalmers, and 20 year old Mike Beasley as their second and 3rd best scorers. And he had a USG% around prime-MJ

and Jermaine O'Neal for 22 games:roll:

You don't just take 8 more shots per game than the next highest person in the league. That's what MJ would have to do.

Depends.
I would guess better. his ability to GET to the rim in unparalleled in nba history, and his ingenuity at the rim is also the best in nba history (though a few players shoot a higher percentage at the rim tbh)

He would get more foul calls, that much is obvious. Spacing feels better today, so Im sure he would have developed a decent 3 point shot.

While it is true that his 3 point shot was very inconsistent throughout his career, he showed enough flashes that I think his 3 point shooting would have improved.

Would play less minutes I guess, so his overall averages might go down. I think with modern training, he would have actually improved his already GOAT level mid range game (I recall that outside of 15 feet, he shot something near 51% at the end of his career, cough cough Harvey Polluck is a bullcrapper)

So yeah, I would think that, considering that peak for peak, and overall, no one matches him (though some admittedly come close, such as possibly Lebron when his career is over, Russell, Kareem, and Ive seen good arguments for and against Wilt)

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el][B]30 points is a lot different than 40 points.[/B] Both of those guys are probably top-25 scorers all time. Wade did it on a team that had 22 year old Mario Chalmers, and 20 year old Mike Beasley as their second and 3rd best scorers. And he had a USG% around prime-MJ

and Jermaine O'Neal for 22 games:roll:

You don't just take 8 more shots per game than the next highest person in the league. That's what MJ would have to do.[/QUOTE]
Why can't he if his team needs it? Mj stamina was high anyways. Well i never said he would averge 40 ppg. I think 33-37 on better TS because of how Fts are called today. You acting like what Mj was doing was the norm dummy. Only two players throughout the 90s averaged 30 ppg. The year when Mj averge 37 ppg the next highest was 7 ppg behind. Averging 30ppg is not a normal thing bro. Its rare. Mj did it alot this is what made him the best scorer ever

There is nothing that would give him an edge or disadvantage he didn't already have.

[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]There is nothing that would give him an edge or disadvantage he didn't already have.[/QUOTE]
Actually the rule changes would give him a edge.

He would have easier buckets. No one to stand in his way when he drives. Too much spacing, it would be too easy.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Why can't he if his team needs it? Mj stamina was high anyways. Well i never said he would averge 40 ppg. I think 33-37 on better TS because of how Fts are called today. You acting like what Mj was doing was the norm dummy. Only two players throughout the 90s averaged 30 ppg. The year when Mj averge 37 ppg the next highest was 7 ppg behind. Averging 30ppg is not a normal thing bro. Its rare. Mj did it alot this is what made him the best scorer ever[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1985&year_max=1990&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws[/url]

^shot per game leaders '84-'90

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2015&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws[/url]

^shot per game leaders '10-'15


Today's game is played at a slower pace. Stars play less minutes across the board, and take less shots.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Actually the rule changes would give him a edge.[/QUOTE]
Which ones?

[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]Which ones?[/QUOTE]

1) No hand check
2) No physical contact allowed which means he would get more calls

And not the rules but the spacing in today's game means more space to work with. MJ already established himself as the best ever at getting to the basket and finishing in an era where it was much more congested, hand checking was allowed and hard fouls were allowed. He would flourish better in this era. The rules were tailor made for the athletic, wing player.

Kobe Bryant FTR '97 - '04: .390

Kobe Bryant FTR '06 - '13: .378

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el][url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1985&year_max=1990&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws[/url]

^shot per game leaders '84-'90

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2015&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws[/url]

^shot per game leaders '10-'15


Today's game is played at a slower pace. Stars play less minutes across the board, and take less shots.[/QUOTE]

While I partially agree with you, I do have a few points I would like to make.

1. Personally, many people say pace doesent truly effect star scoring, and while the correlation might not be huge, it is foolish however to say that there ISNT a relationship. the correlation increases as the situation gets more extreme. good point about shots, which refutes this point completely.
2. One thing I would like to mention is that this depends on what team he plays in. realistically, Jordan imo was the best player of all time in transition, and Dipper/Phila's research supports this theory, as he shot something like 90% over a 132 game span in transition. for comparison, Lebron generally shoots somewhere in the 70s, even in 09, which imo is his peak year.
3. to all the people talking about how he would dominate because of spacing, defenses are obviously much more complicated today. not gonna go in depth on that lol. But tbh, He already attacked teh rim as good as anyone, what makes people think he would suddenly do better? what, does his percentage go from around 77% to 79% at the rim?
3.
I believe that while his raw stats might not be as impressive, because of minutes and pace, his impact would probably stay the same. After-all, he is far better than people like peak Kobe on offense, and obviously, was a monster defensively as well.
4.
Even now, people fail to realize the nuances of his game. I wont go into depth now, but in terms of his basketball IQ, I find it criminally underrated.

[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]Kobe Bryant FTR '97 - '04: .390

Kobe Bryant FTR '06 - '13: .378[/QUOTE]

Not a very good example. at all. no offense, but they were completely different players tbh.

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el][url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1985&year_max=1990&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws[/url]

^shot per game leaders '84-'90

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2015&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws[/url]

^shot per game leaders '10-'15


Today's game is played at a slower pace. Stars play less minutes across the board, and take less shots.[/QUOTE]
Go look who played faster the 1988 bulls or the 2015 rockets. You clearly not understanding what Mj did has a bull wasn't the norm. Nobody but him and Karl malone (1season) averged 30 ppg in the 90s. The year he averged 37 nobody else was close to him. The bulls were a slow pace team similar to most teams today. He was still putting up those numbers.

[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]While I partially agree with you, I do have a few points I would like to make.

1. Personally, many people say pace doesent truly effect star scoring, and while the correlation might not be huge, it is foolish however to say that there ISNT a relationship. the correlation increases as the situation gets more extreme. good point about shots, which refutes this point completely.
2. One thing I would like to mention is that this depends on what team he plays in. realistically, Jordan imo was the best player of all time in transition, and Dipper/Phila's research supports this theory, as he shot something like 90% over a 132 game span in transition. for comparison, Lebron generally shoots somewhere in the 70s, even in 09, which imo is his peak year.
3. to all the people talking about how he would dominate because of spacing, defenses are obviously much more complicated today. not gonna go in depth on that lol. But tbh, He already attacked teh rim as good as anyone, what makes people think he would suddenly do better? what, does his percentage go from around 77% to 79% at the rim?
3.
I believe that while his raw stats might not be as impressive, because of minutes and pace, his impact would probably stay the same. After-all, he is far better than people like peak Kobe on offense, and obviously, was a monster defensively as well.
4.
Even now, people fail to realize the nuances of his game. I wont go into depth now, but in terms of his basketball IQ, I find it criminally underrated.[/QUOTE]
Agreed and another thing is Mj played in slow pace systems

[B]Probably better, yup... But I wouldn't say that considerably so this discussion doesn't "matter" all that much to me...[/B]

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]Blatant disrespect for Harden. Can't take anything you say seriously. Defenses changed slower than the rule changes. [B]After 2008 perimeter players scoring dropped off again[/B] as teams figured out how to use defensive freedom to slow down guys like that.[/QUOTE]

Except for those times that Dwyane Wade averaged 30 PPG in '09 and Durant averaged 30-32 PPG in several seasons. :oldlol:

Replace Durant's current/former teammates last season with 28-30 year old Kobe and Iverson and you see 2 guys easily put up 32+ PPG.

[QUOTE]Today's game is played at a slower pace. Stars play less minutes across the board, and take less shots.[/QUOTE]

The late 90s was the slowest paced era ever and a 33-35 year old MJ was still getting off shots and winning scoring titles on championship teams. No change in pace, rules, etc is going to deter the GOAT from getting buckets.

[QUOTE]Kobe Bryant FTR '97 - '04: .390

Kobe Bryant FTR '06 - '13: .378[/QUOTE]

You added the years he spent on the bench, that skews things. Here's a more in depth look:


Star perimeter players who played under both sets of rules (3 sec/handchecking/no handchecking):

[B][U]Allen Iverson[/U][/B]

'96-'01 (handchecking, no 3-sec rule): .385 [.449 peak]
'01-'05 (handchecking, 3-sec rule): .391 [.432 peak]
'05-'09 (no handchecking, 3-sec rule): [B][COLOR="Red"].468[/COLOR][/B] [.512 peak *full season*]

*AI, drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high in 2006 (33 PPG) just after handchecking on the perimeter was completely eliminated.

[B][U]Kobe Bryant (As a Starter)[/U][/B]

'98-'01: (handchecking, no 3-sec rule): .361 [.375 peak]
'01-'05: (handchecking, 3-sec rule): .415 [.502 peak]
'05-'10: (no handchecking, 3-sec rule): .401 [.437 peak]

*Kobe, drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high in 2006 (35.4 PPG) just after handchecking on the perimeter was completely eliminated

You're welcome :cheers:

[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]While I partially agree with you, I do have a few points I would like to make.

1. Personally, many people say pace doesent truly effect star scoring, and while the correlation might not be huge, it is foolish however to say that there ISNT a relationship. the correlation increases as the situation gets more extreme. good point about shots, which refutes this point completely.
2. One thing I would like to mention is that this depends on what team he plays in. realistically, Jordan imo was the best player of all time in transition, and Dipper/Phila's research supports this theory, as he shot something like 90% over a 132 game span in transition. for comparison, Lebron generally shoots somewhere in the 70s, even in 09, which imo is his peak year.
3. to all the people talking about how he would dominate because of spacing, defenses are obviously much more complicated today. not gonna go in depth on that lol. But tbh, He already attacked teh rim as good as anyone, what makes people think he would suddenly do better? what, does his percentage go from around 77% to 79% at the rim?
3.
I believe that while his raw stats might not be as impressive, because of minutes and pace, his impact would probably stay the same. After-all, he is far better than people like peak Kobe on offense, and obviously, was a monster defensively as well.
4.
Even now, people fail to realize the nuances of his game. I wont go into depth now, but in terms of his basketball IQ, I find it criminally underrated.[/QUOTE]

:confusedshrug: I agree with all of this.

I've said like 3 times in this thread that MJ would clearly be the best in the league.

I just think it's foolish to think that he would score 40ppg :confusedshrug: Like you said, he shot like 90% on fastbreaks....in the 80's.....where there were a ton of fastbreaks....

Durant is basically is Ralph Sampson size, with handles and one of the best J's of all time and he will never get close to a 40ppg season.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]



[B]The late 90s was the slowest paced era ever and a 33-35 year old MJ was still getting off shots and winning scoring titles on championship teams. No change in pace, rules, etc is going to deter the GOAT from getting buckets.
[/B]


You added the years he spent on the bench, that skews things. Here's a more in depth look:


Star perimeter players who played under both sets of rules (3 sec/handchecking/no handchecking):

[B][U]Allen Iverson[/U][/B]

'96-'01 (handchecking, no 3-sec rule): .385 [.449 peak]
'01-'05 (handchecking, 3-sec rule): .391 [.432 peak]
'05-'09 (no handchecking, 3-sec rule): [B][COLOR="Red"].468[/COLOR][/B] [.512 peak *full season*]

*AI, drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high in 2006 (33 PPG) just after handchecking on the perimeter was completely eliminated.

[B][U]Kobe Bryant (As a Starter)[/U][/B]

'98-'01: (handchecking, no 3-sec rule): .361 [.375 peak]
'01-'05: (handchecking, 3-sec rule): .415 [.502 peak]
'05-'10: (no handchecking, 3-sec rule): .401 [.437 peak]

*Kobe, drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high in 2006 (35.4 PPG) just after handchecking on the perimeter was completely eliminated

You're welcome :cheers:[/QUOTE]

But MJ wasn't anywhere close to 40ppg in the 90's :facepalm you're just proving my point.


And yes, right after handchecking was removed perimeter players scored more....until defenses figured out how to take advantage of the new freedoms allowed with the removal of illegal D. That was around '08.

And you have to account for Bryant and Iverson getting more veteran calls as they got older. Less athletic finishes, more fouls drawn.

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]:confusedshrug: I agree with all of this.

I've said like 3 times in this thread that MJ would clearly be the best in the league.

I just think it's foolish to think that he would score 40ppg :confusedshrug:

[B]Durant is basically is Ralph Sampson[/B] size, with handles and one of the best J's of all time and he will never get close to a 40ppg season.[/QUOTE]

*If Ralph Sampson was as weak as a newborn kitten and couldn't get post position against Joe Dumars*


:yaohappy:

[QUOTE]But MJ wasn't anywhere close to 40ppg in the 90's you're just proving my point.[/QUOTE]

You don't have a point. You're just spewing nonsensical shit that has been disproven by reality.

Of course a 35 year old Jordan wouldn't come close to 40 PPG in any era. But Captain Marvel put up 37 PPG with the next closest scorer being [I]8 PPG lower[/I]. Give Cap the sort of freedom and ridiculous free throw rate as prime James Kukoc and he pushses 40.

[QUOTE]And yes, right after handchecking was removed perimeter players scored more....until defenses figured out how to take advantage of the new freedoms allowed with the removal of illegal D. That was around '08[/QUOTE]

None of that is true.

And after '08 Wade and Durant had several 30-32 PPG seasons, Durant having done it just a season ago on a contender with the reigning scoring champion on his squad.

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]But MJ wasn't anywhere close to 40ppg in the 90's :facepalm you're just proving my point.


And yes, right after handchecking was removed perimeter players scored more....until defenses figured out how to take advantage of the new freedoms allowed with the removal of illegal D. That was around '08.

And you have to account for Bryant and Iverson getting more veteran calls as they got older. Less athletic finishes, more fouls drawn.[/QUOTE]
Mj had a better team in the 90s but he still averged 33ppg one year

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]*If Ralph Sampson was as weak as a newborn kitten and couldn't get post position against Joe Dumars*


:yaohappy:



You don't have a point. You're just spewing nonsensical shit that has been disproven by reality.

Of course a 35 year old Jordan wouldn't come close to 40 PPG in any era. But Captain Marvel put up 37 PPG with the next closest scorer being [I]8 PPG lower[/I]. Give Cap the sort of freedom and ridiculous free throw rate as prime James Kukoc and he pushses 40.



None of that is true.

And after '08 Wade and Durant had several 30-32 PPG seasons, Durant having done it just a season ago on a contender with the reigning scoring champion on his squad.[/QUOTE]


I can't keep arguing with morons. Free throw rate is FTA/FGA. It's useful because players attempt shots that don't end up being counted as FGA because of fouls. free throw rate just measures the balance between shots and free throws. It doesn't mean MJ is going to score a ton more points. If he had a higher free throw rate it likely would mean he was getting fewer FGA and instead getting more FTA, but since he was so efficient from the field, it wouldn't really impact his overall efficiency that much.

To score 40ppg, he'd have increase his already historic usg% by a substantial amount, or increase his overall efficiency to unprecedented levels for a high usg% player. Substantially higher than guys like Harden, who already pushes efficiency to insane levels by only shooting layups+freethrows+and 3's


even if MJ lead the league by a huge margin in mid range by shooting like 55%....a substantial improvement on his actual numbers (for reference, spot up guys like Al Horford or Dirk have been leading the league shooting close to 50% from midrange) that would keep his efficiency from reaching the levels necessary to score 40ppg.

He's not taking 30 shots per game, and he's not shooting 70 TS%

no 40 point season. The only way that's possible is if he was on the 6er's and they only wanted to win 25 games with the GOAT.

Bryant's % at the rim '01 - '04: .640%

Bryant's % at the rim '06 - '13: .635%

And if anyone wants to make a claim about Bryant slashing less in the 10's or any other point. He had a .501 ftr in 1998 as an all-star, and a .437 one in 2004. You can really use these splits and make them look any way you want. The fact is, Bryant's slashing game difference between the "eras" isn't statistically significant.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]*If Ralph Sampson was as weak as a newborn kitten and couldn't get post position against Joe Dumars*


:yaohappy:



You don't have a point. You're just spewing nonsensical shit that has been disproven by reality.

Of course a 35 year old Jordan wouldn't come close to 40 PPG in any era. But Captain Marvel put up 37 PPG with the next closest scorer being [I]8 PPG lower[/I]. Give Cap the sort of freedom and ridiculous free throw rate as prime James Kukoc and he pushses 40.



None of that is true.

And after '08 Wade and Durant had several 30-32 PPG seasons, Durant having done it just a season ago on a contender with the reigning scoring champion on his squad.[/QUOTE]

Technically, captain marvel represent multiple characters in the fiction universe, some female.

Also, I don't think the arguement is that if Jordan COULD average 40. He could probably average it in 91, in expense of his fg%
(To get 37 PPg, he would only need to make 1.4 in 3.2 shots, in a per 36 basis, and his fg% would still be above 50)

My arguement is that it might not be effective, this is similar to my arguement said against certain Kobe stans, and against wilt.

Effective means in the sense that it's the best use of the players talents.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Agreed and another thing is Mj played in slow pace systems[/QUOTE]

The thing is, the gap is probably closed when you factor in 3 point shooting, which increases the pace of most teams.

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]I can't keep arguing with morons. Free throw rate is FTA/FGA. It's useful because players attempt shots that don't end up being counted as FGA because of fouls. free throw rate just measures the balance between shots and free throws. It doesn't mean MJ is going to score a ton more points. If he had a higher free throw rate it likely would mean he was getting fewer FGA and instead getting more FTA, but since he was so efficient from the field, it wouldn't really impact his overall efficiency that much.

To score 40ppg, he'd have increase his already historic usg% by a substantial amount, or increase his overall efficiency to unprecedented levels for a high usg% player. Substantially higher than guys like Harden, who already pushes efficiency to insane levels by only shooting layups+freethrows+and 3's


even if MJ lead the league by a huge margin in mid range by shooting like 55%....a substantial improvement on his actual numbers (for reference, spot up guys like Al Horford or Dirk have been leading the league shooting close to 50% from midrange) that would keep his efficiency from reaching the levels necessary to score 40ppg.

He's not taking 30 shots per game, and he's not shooting 70 TS%

no 40 point season. The only way that's possible is if he was on the 6er's and they only wanted to win 25 games with the GOAT.[/QUOTE]

Broseph, Kobe Beans Bryant averaged 35.4 PPG on a playoff team after the rule changes. He took 27 FGA, shooting 45% FG, .559 TS%, with only a .377 FTr.

If Captain Marvel on a shitty team takes full advantage of the rules and gets those James Kukoc FTr while taking a shot or more than Beans while maintaining similar shooting #s... He's getting 40 :crazysam:

Posters like 'ralph' are willfully liars. They full well know that DonDadda has ethered them but tomorrow they will continue to lie.

The mark of the internet troll, a low grade case of sociopathy.

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]I can't keep arguing with morons. Free throw rate is FTA/FGA. It's useful because players attempt shots that don't end up being counted as FGA because of fouls. free throw rate just measures the balance between shots and free throws. It doesn't mean MJ is going to score a ton more points. If he had a higher free throw rate it likely would mean he was getting fewer FGA and instead getting more FTA, but since he was so efficient from the field, it wouldn't really impact his overall efficiency that much.

To score 40ppg, he'd have increase his already historic usg% by a substantial amount, or increase his overall efficiency to unprecedented levels for a high usg% player. Substantially higher than guys like Harden, who already pushes efficiency to insane levels by only shooting layups+freethrows+and 3's


even if MJ lead the league by a huge margin in mid range by shooting like 55%....a substantial improvement on his actual numbers (for reference, spot up guys like Al Horford or Dirk have been leading the league shooting close to 50% from midrange) that would keep his efficiency from reaching the levels necessary to score 40ppg.

He's not taking 30 shots per game, and he's not shooting 70 TS%

no 40 point season. The only way that's possible is if he was on the 6er's and they only wanted to win 25 games with the GOAT.[/QUOTE]
Bro 34year old Mj was at a similar midrange to Dirk. Mj at 34

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Broseph, Kobe Beans Bryant averaged 35.4 PPG on a playoff team after the rule changes. He took 27 FGA, shooting 45% FG, .559 TS%, with only a .377 FTr.

If Captain Marvel on a shitty team takes full advantage of the rules and gets those James Kukoc FTr while taking a shot or more than Beans while maintaining similar shooting #s... He's getting 40 :crazysam:[/QUOTE]

Once again, my arguement is based in the actual efficiency of volume scoring. Scoring something like 45 PPg on 53% will always be beneficial to your team , though it can be misleading.

A certain player you hate is my reasoning for this

On a bad team in this era, I could see MJ possibly averaging 40 ppg. But only on a bad team where his usage would be very high like in 1987.

But this is the era to play in if you are an athletic, wing player. No hand checking, no physical contact allowed with great spacing and not many great rim protectors. MJ proved he was the GOAT at attacking the basket and finishing in a much tougher era for wing players.

[QUOTE=90sgoat]Posters like 'ralph' are willfully liars. They full well know that DonDadda has ethered them but tomorrow they will continue to lie.

The mark of the internet troll, a low grade case of sociopathy.[/QUOTE]

More like willfully stupid.

Jordan would absolutely torch the modern era. Anyone who says otherwise is only claiming he can't because they are too young to have watched him and don't want to believe someone they didn't have a chance to see was that good. He is the absolute GOAT and would dominate any era.