Lebron's time of possession in 2015 Finals was 50% higher than RS leader

[QUOTE=3ball]Of course and thanks for pointing that out..

I should have told FKari that my post assumes HALF COURT SETS, which are literally 80% of the NBA offense..

The NBA is less than 20% transition/early offense.. This is statistical fact.. So I assumed FKari knew I was talking about half court sets.[/QUOTE]

You shouldn't of even have to spell it out for FKari. This should be known by true basketballs fan as a given. When not it makes me suspect of trolling...

[url]http://www.vantagesports.com/story/VEkOBCgAACcARDvz/everything-you-need-to-know-about-shot-selection[/url]

I'll just leave this here. Second graph speaks for itself.

[QUOTE=fpliii][url]http://www.vantagesports.com/story/VEkOBCgAACcARDvz/everything-you-need-to-know-about-shot-selection[/url]

I'll just leave this here. Second graph speaks for itself.[/QUOTE]

Sources?

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Sources?[/QUOTE]
Uh, what? Vantage is one of the player tracking/analytics/data partners of the NBA. That graphic is just a visualization of their data.

[url]https://team.vantagesports.com[/url]
[url]https://mobile.twitter.com/vantagesports[/url]

3ball sidestepping as usual.

[B]You tell him he's flat out wrong on point A. He replies saying he's not wrong about point B[/B]. :oldlol:

I'm going to level with you because you're probably thinking I'm a Lebron stan.

I agree with you that "Lebron ball" isn't a great way to win. A superstar holding the ball at the top of the key trying to do everything isn't going to work.

Now here's the thing: He's pretty damn good at it, probably one of the best ever at that. But on top of it not being an optimum strategy, unfortunately, Lebron's play style almost dictates it. He's always defaulted to this style. He's a great scorer so you want him scoring; he's a great playmaker so you want the ball in his hands; he's a great defender so you want him defending. But a guy can't do all that and attempting to do all that hinders the rest of the team. I don't think Lebron could fit in a highly orchestrated system where the star has to lower their usage. I don't think his instincts or tool set caters to it. If he was drafted and played for someone else, then, maybe. But he's an almost-master of all trades. That's who he is.

This was obvious watching the games tbh, and why I think it was a boring finals series for the most part...Cavs just didn't have the talent, LeBron didn't have the talent, so they thought their best shot was running the clock and having games with less possessions.

Thank **** it didn't work, karma, cop a dick, Cavs

[QUOTE=3ball]The Cavs definitely win if the team's best player (Lebron) shoots better than 39%.[/QUOTE]

Which means if Delly shoots 29% instead of 28% Cavs win. J.R Smith shoots 32% instead of 31%, Cavs win, Shump shoots 26% instead of 25% Cavs win....correct?

[QUOTE]The statistical reality is that Lebron shot worse than his teammates in the 2015 Finals.. He shot 43.2% eFG, while his teammates shot 43.3% eFG[/QUOTE]
Which means if LeBrons teammates shot a combined 45.3% eFG, they would have won the series.....correct?

[QUOTE][B]Again, if Lebron shoots better, the Cavs WIN - you can't get past this fact.[/B].. Ultimately, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).[/QUOTE]
Yet you can't get past the fact that the 3 other perimeter players shot a combined 50-173. If they shoot better, Cavs win...correct?

[QUOTE=fpliii]Uh, what? Vantage is one of the player tracking/analytics/data partners of the NBA. That graphic is just a visualization of their data.

[url]https://team.vantagesports.com[/url]
[url]https://mobile.twitter.com/vantagesports[/url][/QUOTE]
What does the article have to do with Lebron's time of possession being an insanely high 12.0 minutes per game in the Finals and 50% higher than the regular season leader?

If you can't say what the connection is, then why even enter the thread?

[QUOTE=fpliii][url]http://www.vantagesports.com/story/VEkOBCgAACcARDvz/everything-you-need-to-know-about-shot-selection[/url]

I'll just leave this here. Second graph speaks for itself.[/QUOTE]

RIP 3ball

[QUOTE=3ball]What does the article have to do with Lebron's time of possession being an insanely high 12.0 minutes per game in the Finals and 50% higher than the regular season leader?

If you can't say what the connection is, then why even enter the thread?[/QUOTE]

Really, bro? That post is the ether to your earlier post. You know, the one I called garbage and you sidestepped? This kind of deception should be a bannable offense. Take the L. Start a new thread where you'll find unsuspecting posters who won't see that you go in circles.

[QUOTE=3ball]What does the article have to do with Lebron's time of possession being an insanely high 12.0 minutes per game in the Finals and 50% higher than the regular season leader?

If you can't say what the connection is, then why even enter the thread?[/QUOTE]
I don't care about your LeBron debate. You and another poster claimed it is easier to score later in the shot clock. The data confirms that the opposite holds.

[QUOTE=fpliii]I don't care about your LeBron debate. You and another poster claimed it is easier to score later in the shot clock. The data confirms that the opposite holds.[/QUOTE]

[B]I never claimed it was easier to score late in the shot clock.. So you just lied by claiming I said that..

Here was my post - after reading it, vacate the thread, since you have nothing pertinent to add:[/B]


[QUOTE=3ball]

[COLOR="Red"]It's easier to score when you have more time to decide what to do and can wait for the right spot.[/COLOR]

In Lebron's case, he had 50% more time of possession than anyone had all year - his 12.0 minutes per game was 50% higher than the regular season league-leader, John Wall's 8.2 minutes..

Such a ridiculous time of possession is ****ing amazing, and it invalidates his stats (the stat-padding clearouts on every possession and 39% shooting also invalidated his stats)..

Keep it real bro - 50% higher time of possession is insane and very likely the record, BY A MILE

[/QUOTE]

It's like watching an insect on its back. It's over. Yet you keep squirming.

[img]http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa461/mauverelic/13.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]

Yet you can't get past the fact that the 3 other perimeter players shot a combined 50-173. If they shoot better, Cavs win...correct?

[/QUOTE]
Lebron is the team's best player, so he bears more blame if he shoots poorly than his teammates.

But you want to blame the lesser players instead, and exhonerate the best player???... Even though the best player shot worse than his teammates?

Keep deluding yourself and thinking Lebron's repeated Finals losses have nothing to do with him... Go ahead and exhonerate a guy for shooting 39%.... even though he didn't get double-teamed, used a stat-padding clearout style, and had insanely high time of possession.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]I never claimed it was easier to score late in the shot clock.. So you just lied by claiming I said that..

Here was my post - after reading it, vacate the thread, since you have nothing pertinent to add:[/B][/QUOTE]
You co-signed this post
[QUOTE=warriorfan]Of course it's easier to score earlier in the shotclock [b][i]in transition scenarios[/i][/b]. However If you are not in transition and in the half court offense, [i]the longer you hold onto the ball the better chance you have to get a quality offensive look[/i].[/QUOTE]
with:
[QUOTE=3ball]Of course and thanks for pointing that out..

I should have told FKari that my post assumes HALF COURT SETS, which are literally 80% of the NBA offense..

The NBA is less than 20% transition/early offense.. This is statistical fact.. So I assumed FKari knew I was talking about half court sets.[/QUOTE]
Nothing else needs to be said.

[QUOTE=fpliii]You co-signed this post

with:

Nothing else needs to be said.

[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Navy"]warriorfan was talking about an INDIVIDUAL player's efficiency, not a team's efficiency: [/COLOR]

[INDENT][I]"the longer [COLOR="Red"][B]you[/B][/COLOR] hold onto the ball the better chance [B][COLOR="Red"]you[/COLOR][/B] have to get a quality offensive look."[/I][/INDENT]


So your data isn't relevant - your data measures a [I][COLOR="indigo"]team's[/COLOR][/I] efficiency late in the shot clock... It doesn't measure a player's [COLOR="indigo"][I]individual[/I][/COLOR] efficiency after holding the ball for varying lengths of time.. Obviously, the two are very different.

This thread is about Lebron's insanely high time of possession, so a player's individual efficiency after holding the ball is the relevant stat, not team efficiency at the end of shot clocks.. Again, take your Lebron fan-dom elsewhere.. We were actually having fruitful discussion before your senseless derail.
.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]warriorfan was talking about an INDIVIDUAL player's efficiency, not a team's efficiency: [/B]

[INDENT][I]"the longer [COLOR="Red"][B]you[/B][/COLOR] hold onto the ball the better chance [B][COLOR="Red"]you[/COLOR][/B] have to get a quality offensive look."[/I][/INDENT]


So your data isn't relevant - your data measures a TEAM'S efficiency late in the shot clock... It doesn't measure a player's INDIVIDUAL efficiency after holding the ball for varying lengths of time.. Obviously, the two are very different.

This thread is about Lebron's insanely high time of possession, so a player's individual efficiency after holding the ball is the relevant stat, not team efficiency at the end of shot clocks.. Again, take your Lebron fan-dom elsewhere.. We were actually having fruitful discussion before your senseless derail.[/QUOTE]
Are you for real? Team efficiency is an aggregate of individual player efficiency. Jesus Christ dude.

Funny that you call anybody who disagrees with your points a LeBron fan (and I don't derail discussion, I correct the spread of misinformation). That's my cue to leave. There's no conspiracy, it's not the world against you.

[QUOTE=3ball]Lebron is the team's best player, so he bears more blame if he shoots poorly than his teammates.[/QUOTE]
Except he didn't shoot worse than the other perimeter teammates.

[QUOTE]But you want to blame the lesser players instead, and exhonerate the best player???... Even though the best player shot worse than his teammates?[/QUOTE]
Except he didn't shoot worse than the other perimeter teammates.

[QUOTE][B]Keep deluding yourself and thinking Lebron's repeated Finals losses have nothing to do with him..[/B]. Go ahead and exhonerate a guy for shooting 39%.... even though he didn't get double-teamed, used a stat-padding clearout style, and had insanely high time of possession.[/QUOTE]
He was the best player on those B2B Finals losses. Could have shot better in 2015 but so could have his teammates.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]

Except he didn't shoot worse than the other perimeter teammates.

[/quote]
Lebron's eFG was 43.2%, while his teammates' was 43.3%... Lebron's teammates shot better than he did in the Finals.. This is a fact.

Again, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).
.

[QUOTE=fpliii]

Are you for rea? Team efficiency is an aggregate of individual player efficiency. Jesus Christ dude.

[/QUOTE]
So wait - you think a TEAM'S efficiency at the end of a shot clock is indicative of an INDIVIDUAL PLAYER'S efficiency after holding the ball for varying lengths of time?

Seriously, let's just agree to disagree on basketball..

Also, your Lebron fan-dom is creepy, because you try to hide it.. You're disingenuous about the guys you root for.

[QUOTE=3ball]So wait - you think a team's efficiency at the end of a shot clock is indicative of an individual player's efficiency after holding the ball for varying lengths of time?

Seriously, let's just agree to disagree on basketball.. You're such a shallow, basic thinker, it's amazing.[/QUOTE]
How am I a shallow thinker? Dude, we never actually debate our basketball opinions on here. It always comes down to an argument over semantics or straight data. :lol

For real, I just chime in when I see something worth correcting. If you want to have a debate on basketball philosophy, start a thread at some point and I can chime in. I think you're a good dude, but I think you let this agenda stuff get out of hand.

[QUOTE=fpliii]How am I a shallow thinker? Dude, we never actually debate our basketball opinions on here. It always comes down to an argument over semantics or straight data. :lol

For real, I just chime in when I see something worth correcting. If you want to have a debate on basketball philosophy, start a thread at some point and I can chime in. I think you're a good dude, but I think you let this agenda stuff get out of hand.[/QUOTE]
You didn't correct anything - you said team efficiency is indicative of an individual's efficiency, which is ridiculous..

You just derailed the thread with useless information that has no bearing on Lebron's high time of possession.

[QUOTE=3ball] Also, your Lebron fan-dom is creepy, because you try to hide it.. You're disingenuous about the guys you root for.[/QUOTE]
lol I'm disingenuous?

People on Real GM give me shit for having a guy like KG clearly better than LeBron all-time, yet because somebody disagrees with you in any topic, he/she is automatically a LeBron fan.

:kobe:

Makes sense considering the Cavs were missing BOTH Kyrie Irving and K Love. Nothing really shocking here.

[QUOTE=3ball]So wait - you think a TEAM'S efficiency at the end of a shot clock is indicative of an INDIVIDUAL PLAYER'S efficiency after holding the ball for varying lengths of time?

Seriously, let's just agree to disagree on basketball..

Also, your Lebron fan-dom is creepy, because you try to hide it.. You're disingenuous about the guys you root for.[/QUOTE]

What makes you think he's a LeBron fan? lol.

[QUOTE=3ball]You didn't correct anything - you said team efficiency is indicative of an individual's efficiency, which is ridiculous..

You just derailed the thread with useless information that has no bearing on Lebron's high time of possession.[/QUOTE]
I did two things:

1) Correct a belief that it's easier to score later in the shot clock than earlier.

2) State the obvious, that team scoring is an aggregate of individual scoring.

I made no reference to ball dominance, time of possession, LeBron, or anyone.

[QUOTE=catch24]Makes sense considering the Cavs were missing BOTH Kyrie Irving and K Love. Nothing really shocking here.



What makes you think he's a LeBron fan? lol.[/QUOTE]
He thinks I'm a LeBron fan because last year on Real GM before he was banned, and on here, I mentioned that in the 2014 Finals, the Heat lost because of their poor defense, as opposed to offense. That pissed 3ball off for some reason (even though LeBron was a part of the team defense and was responsible for many of the blown rotations that gave up easy threes), and since then the dude has disliked me.

[QUOTE=fpliii][b]Are you for real? Team efficiency is an aggregate of individual player efficiency. Jesus Christ dude.[/b]

Funny that you call anybody who disagrees with your points a LeBron fan (and I don't derail discussion, I correct the spread of misinformation). That's my cue to leave. There's no conspiracy, it's not the world against you.[/QUOTE]

Now you are just reaching. Just stop dude. :facepalm

[QUOTE=fpliii]I did two things:

[B][COLOR="Red"]1) Correct a belief that it's easier to score later in the shot clock than earlier.
[/COLOR][/B]
2) State the obvious, that team scoring is an aggregate of individual scoring.

[/QUOTE]
No one itt has claimed the red above... So again, your data was an unnecessary derail.. I already posted warriorfan's quote - he was referring to an individual's efficiency, which is obviously different from a team's efficiency.

Regarding #2 above - team scoring is an aggregate of individual scoring, but a team's scoring stats are far different from any one player's stats, which is what we were talking about - the individual..

So again, your post was a derail, as usual.. You have a real penchant for posting irrelevant shit.. :confusedshrug:.. I've noticed this trend for a while now.
.

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Now you are just reaching. Just stop dude. :facepalm[/QUOTE]
Excuse me?

Team efficiency in PPP = sum (all individual player points scored) / sum (all individual possessions used). This is vacuously true.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Excuse me?

Team efficiency in PPP = sum (all individual player points scored) / sum (all individual possessions used). This is vacuously true.[/QUOTE]
That's fine... But it has NOTHING to do with the thread.

An individual's efficiency is a far different topic than a team's efficiency.. Why you brought up team efficiency in this thread, I will never know.

[QUOTE=3ball]No one itt has claimed the red above... So again, your data was an unnecessary derail.. I already posted warriorfan's quote - he was referring to an individual's efficiency, which is obviously different from a team's efficiency.

Regarding #2 above - team scoring is an aggregate of individual scoring, but a team's scoring stats are far different from any one player's stats, which is what we were talking about - the individual..

So again, your post was a derail, as usual.. You have a real penchant for posting irrelevant shit.. :confusedshrug:.. I've noticed this trend for a while now.
.[/QUOTE]
Scroll up to post 95 in this thread:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11843346&postcount=95[/url]

I'm not going in circles with you.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Scroll up to post 95 in this thread:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11843346&postcount=95[/url]

I'm not going in circles with you.[/QUOTE]
Is espn not doing Rapm this year?

[QUOTE=juju151111]Is espn not doing Rapm this year?[/QUOTE]
It's too early in the season probably, since you need a lot of possessions for them to be relevant. Jeremias Engleman (J.E.) is still working for them, so he'll have his numbers out soon. Note that those aren't pure RAPM, they're RPM (also known as xRAPM) - which is a blend of box score data and play-by-play data.

[QUOTE=FKAri]

[B]Because what you posted was an opinion.[/B]

[/QUOTE]
You're factually incorrect - it isn't opinion that Lebron shot horrifically in the 2015 playoffs and Finals..

It isn't opinion that Lebron used stat-padding, AAU-style clearouts to achieve his Finals stats.

It isn't opinion that Lebron's time of possession in the Finals was 50% higher than the regular season leader.

Ultimately, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).

[QUOTE=fpliii]Scroll up to post 95 in this thread:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11843346&postcount=95[/url]

I'm not going in circles with you.[/QUOTE]
The fact that Lebron's high time of possession helped him accumulate stats has nothing to do with a team's efficiency late in the shot clock.

Only someone who is dumb and biased for Lebron would think the two have connection.

[QUOTE=3ball]The fact that Lebron's high time of possession helped him accumulate stats has nothing to do with a team's efficiency late in the shot clock.

Only someone who is dumb and biased for Lebron would think the two have connection.[/QUOTE]
When have I mentioned LeBron in this thread?

Is this a roundabout way of asking me my opinion on the Finals?

[QUOTE=fpliii]It's too early in the season probably, since you need a lot of possessions for them to be relevant. Jeremias Engleman (J.E.) is still working for them, so he'll have his numbers out soon. Note that those aren't pure RAPM, they're RPM (also known as xRAPM) - which is a blend of box score data and play-by-play data.[/QUOTE]
What do you consider the more reliable one pure or xrapm.

[QUOTE=juju151111]What do you consider the more reliable one pure or xrapm.[/QUOTE]
xRAPM in a previous year is superior at predicting xRAPM the next year than RAPM in a previous year is at predicting RAPM in the next year (since the blend includes elements of the box score that are consistent). So in terms of statistical 'reliability' (which is the consistency of a measure), xRAPM would be superior.

In terms of statistical validity (degree of correctness), RAPM is superior. It has superior explanatory value, since it is a mathematical isolation of an individual's impact on scoring margin.

I use RAPM in my analysis since my primary interest is in player/team comparisons.

Hope that helps.

[QUOTE=3ball]Lebron's eFG was 43.2%, while his teammates' was 43.3%... Lebron's teammates shot better than he did in the Finals.. This is a fact.

Again, Lebron's stats are invalidated by his 39% shooting, stat-padding clearout style, and ridiculous time of possession (50% higher than the regular season leader).
.[/QUOTE]
Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[QUOTE=fpliii]xRAPM in a previous year is superior at predicting xRAPM the next year than RAPM in a previous year is at predicting RAPM in the next year (since the blend includes elements of the box score that are consistent). So in terms of statistical 'reliability' (which is the consistency of a measure), xRAPM would be superior.

In terms of statistical validity (degree of correctness), RAPM is superior. It has superior explanatory value, since it is a mathematical isolation of an individual's impact on scoring margin.

I use RAPM in my analysis since my primary interest is in player/team comparisons.

Hope that helps.[/QUOTE]
Oh ok because one think i payed very close attention too was Harden defense last year in the RS and he was definitely giving more effort and better and the stat showed he was better then 14. I been trying to find a stat that correctly judges individual defense and DRAPM seems to be the closest one.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]Without James on the floor, Cleveland