FACT: MJ never lost a series where his team had the HCA.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]This is what's fun about being a fan of the GOAT, you have truth on your side. It's like having God on your side, you just can't lose. The deeper you dig, the clearer the truth is revealed. This is just stuff I do when I have time at work. I dig up MJ stuff and see what I can come up with. And viola, another truth revealed about MJ.
.[/QUOTE]

So basically cherry picking stats to back your argument. that is reverse scientific method. You can do that with basically any top 100 player and make them look like the GOAT.

However, I do agree on MJ being the GOAT, but ppl really just make themselves look silly selectively picking stats. If anything it just makes it more difficult to get your point across because you create haters.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Sam Jones was already an established 23 ppg scorer by that time.
Havlicek was already a 20 ppg scorer that season.
KC Jones and Satch Sanders were considered the best defensive players at their positions at that time.
Lovelette was not a scrub, he had averaged 20 ppg just the season before. Just goes to show you how powerful those Celtics were when a 20 ppg scorer is their 7th best player.

Player-for-player, the '64 Celtics were FAR superior to Wilt's cast of retreads.

How good was Wilt's supporting cast in that '63-64 season?

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...4&postcount=98[/url]

A last place roster that couldn't beat a team of rookies without Wilt.

BTW, his two "HOF" teammates, Rodgers and Thurmond shot .258 and .326 from the field in the '64 Finals.[/QUOTE]

Sam Jones averaged 19/5/3 not 23 ppg.

Havlicek made his first all-star game in 1966. He was already a very good player but not a star.

Lovellette was two years removed from a 20 ppg season and had declined heavily since then. Even playing on the Celtics he shot a woeful %.



Of course Wilt's cast was much worse that year. My point is that saying the Celtics had 8 HOFers is misleading. They had 3 stars and then 5-6 good role players. That's nothing unusual for a championship team.

LAZ, you are a brilliant poster, but you have to understand that in the end, this is all opinion, I mean, if someone is hating on wilt, I understand being upset, but if someone just says a statement you dont agree with on wilt, and is sincere, then like, Dont get pissed dude, just try to have a peaceful arguement.

Doesent apply to this, I know.


I swear whenever ClipperRevival and Lazarus make a thread it turns into this

Wilt sucked

Wilt was awesome

He was a choker

Prove it

Look at his killer instinct

What about it

Thats it you cant see it

His teammates sucked

He only has 2 rings

His teammates sucked

stop making excuses

Compare them to Russells HOF teammates

Russells teammates were overrated

What

They didnt deserve to go to the hall of fame

U saying Havlicek is a scrub?

Hell yeah

Are you dumb?

Are you dumb?

Look at Wilt choking against an injured Willis Reed

Wilt was INJURED as well

In 68 look at what happened

what HAPPENED was that wilt was INJURED

but russell had the most killer instinct ever

LOOK at HIS inbounds PLAY where HE hit THE backboard

look at his ringz

thats because of his team

tell me, how many rings does wilt have?

2.

Hah. choker

He scored 13 points straight, against Russell, in teh 4th quarter in teh playoffs.

How many rings bitch.

**** you

**** you too.

By the way LAZ, I know you hate advanced stats, but here are some on wilt in that 64-65. take it how you want it, a +9 rating on offense is superb (overall +9 I meant)
Wilt was sick this year, and was hardly his regular self. bane of the first few games was defense, which isnt suprising.

technically, offense was similar to teh year before, defense just dropped due to Wilts Illness. going through motions and stuff like that right? something like that. Cant remember what he said.

That being said, only reason defense got better without wilt, otehr than wilt being ill (I dont think this effected his offense too heavily) is that Thurmond got to play in his correct position.

Looking at it it looks like while offense was somewhat teh same (obviously a bit worse but still) it was teh defense that suffered, so it looks like a good enough indicator of his offense.

Despite Thurmond playing in teh right positon and Paul and Connie coming, there was a marked improvement. adding in his defense Id say that it proves that 64 wilt was better than Russell in any year, though granted, its kinda that way for alot of things. I have Russell higher (starting to change my m ind tbh, but im just saying this so I dont get executed, I put them at a tie right now, because lets be honest, Russell probably is teh best leader ever, and I think that his consistency puts him on teh same pedestal, and his peak was top 7 too)
but I think wilt peaked higher, and honestly, russell's best season is probably [B]worse than 3 or 4 of Wilts. [/B]


1964-65 Warriors Total
119.7 poss/48 min
9651 poss/3870 min


Wilt In
4153 Pts Scored
4342 Pts Allowed
1801 Min
4491 Poss
92.5 ORtg
96.7 DRtg


Wilt Out
4312 Pts Scored
4618 Pts Allowed
2069 Min
5160 Poss
83.6 ORtg
89.5 DRtg

Based on this Id put his impact at teh top 5 level in his peak.

that might sound blasphemous, but my "top 5 peaks" are interchangable, though generally I have Jordan on top. (shaq, even for him, had an outlier year in 2000, so while wilts 3 best seasons are>Shaqs 3 imo, at the same time, I think that Shaqs best is about the same)

Generally, I have Jordan on top, and I find That Lebron in 09, Shaq in 00, and Wilt in 67 are interchangable (I also consider taking jordan out of that top spot at times)

I see teh top 4 peaks to basically be a wash.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]How good was Wilt's supporting cast in that '63-64 season?

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9854454&postcount=98[/url]

A last place roster that couldn't beat a team of rookies without Wilt.

BTW, his two "HOF" teammates, Rodgers and Thurmond shot .258 and .326 from the field in the '64 Finals.[/QUOTE]


not arguing one way or the other, but im preeeeetty sure he wasnt being literal

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]This is what's fun about being a fan of the GOAT, you have truth on your side. It's like having God on your side, you just can't lose. [/QUOTE]

Hence the reason why I've never lost an argument on this site.

I think one of the points OP is making is that MJ never lost when his team was favored to win.

MJ's game allowed teammates to play to capacity, so the TEAM always played to capacity, and therefore never underachieved.

Otoh, it's a statistical fact that guys like Lebron lower the ppg [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841]and apg[/url] of teammates - with teammates playing below capacity, it's no surprisee that his TEAMS play below-capacity, and underachieve (2009, 2011, 2014).

misinformation itt

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]It's hard to be a legendary team when MJ's team beats everyone doesn't it? :oldlol: Say the Bulls lost to the Jazz twice, history would view the Jazz as a "legendary" team would they not? But again, MJ didn't let it get to that.[/QUOTE]
Not really. They'd be more like '93-'95 Rockets, which I don't think is considered legendary.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]It's hard to be a legendary team when MJ's team beats everyone doesn't it? :oldlol: Say the Bulls lost to the Jazz twice, history would view the Jazz as a "legendary" team would they not? But again, MJ didn't let it get to that.[/QUOTE]

Wow dude how delusional are you? :oldlol:

I don't mean to repeat myself, but damn get a grip. The Jazz were nowhere near "legendary" like some of the teams listed in your OP, and throughout this thread.

:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]

[B]Wilt In[/B]

92.5 ORtg
96.7 DRtg


[B]Wilt Out [/B]

83.6 ORtg
89.5 DRtg

[/QUOTE]
[B]Bulls ORtg [COLOR="Blue"]with[/COLOR] Jordan 1991-1993[/B]:[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] [SIZE="3"][B]#1 all-time[/B][/SIZE] (115)

[B]Bulls ORtg [COLOR="red"]without[/COLOR] Jordan 1994[/B]:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] [B][SIZE="3"]14th in league[/SIZE][/B] (106)


[SIZE="4"]^^^^GOAT IMPACT[/SIZE]


[I]Keep in mind that these kind of ORtg comparisons are normally done with an on-off format, so the player in question is replaced by NOBODY - whereas the Bulls replaced Jordan with Kukoc.

More importantly, unlike the impact of most players, the offensive improvement the Bulls experienced with Jordan [COLOR="Navy"]didn't come at the expense of defense[/COLOR] - they had the 6th ranked defense in 1994, which is the same as 1991-1993 (4th, 7th, 4th).

Jordan enabled a TWO-WAY TEAM, which shouldn't be surprising since Popovich said Jordan was the standard for [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875185&postcount=49]two-way play[/url].[/I]

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wow dude how delusional are you? :oldlol:

I don't mean to repeat myself, but damn get a grip. The Jazz were nowhere near "legendary" like some of the teams listed in your OP, and throughout this thread.

[/QUOTE]
It's hard to be a legendary team when the goat team keeps beating you.

However, if we put the Bulls in the 2000's era, and we might never have heard of the Spurs.. They damn sure wouldn't be "legendary".

Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)

Duncan = 6 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)

Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)

Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)

Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)

Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011)

Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)

Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)

Russell = 1 (1958)

MJ = 0

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Wow dude how delusional are you? :oldlol:

I don't mean to repeat myself, but damn get a grip. The Jazz were nowhere near "legendary" like some of the teams listed in your OP, and throughout this thread.[/QUOTE]

I said had they beaten MJs Bulls twice, they would've been. Beating the GOAT twice carries a lot of weight.

[QUOTE=Magic 32]Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)

Duncan = 6 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)

Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)

Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)

Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)

Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011)

Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)

Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)

Russell = 1 (1958)

MJ = 0[/QUOTE]

TEAM game.

These are only relevant if the GOAT-tier player played poorly, or perhaps was outplayed by an opposing GOAT-tier player.

For instance...Wilt in '61. He averaged 37 ppg and 23 rpg in that series. How about his teammates? They collectively shot .332 from the floor.

How about Wilt in '66? He averaged 28 ppg, 30 rpg, and shot .509 from the floor, and badly outplayed Russell in the process. How about Wilt's teammates? They collectively shot.352 from the field.

In any case, the bottom line...it is a TEAM game.

[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]LAZ, you are a brilliant poster, but you have to understand that in the end, this is all opinion, I mean, if someone is hating on wilt, I understand being upset, but if someone just says a statement you dont agree with on wilt, and is sincere, then like, Dont get pissed dude, just try to have a peaceful arguement.

Doesent apply to this, I know.


I swear whenever ClipperRevival and Lazarus make a thread it turns into this

Wilt sucked

Wilt was awesome

He was a choker

Prove it

Look at his killer instinct

What about it

Thats it you cant see it

His teammates sucked

He only has 2 rings

His teammates sucked

stop making excuses

Compare them to Russells HOF teammates

Russells teammates were overrated

What

They didnt deserve to go to the hall of fame

U saying Havlicek is a scrub?

Hell yeah

Are you dumb?

Are you dumb?

Look at Wilt choking against an injured Willis Reed

Wilt was INJURED as well

In 68 look at what happened

what HAPPENED was that wilt was INJURED

but russell had the most killer instinct ever

LOOK at HIS inbounds PLAY where HE hit THE backboard

look at his ringz

thats because of his team

tell me, how many rings does wilt have?

2.

Hah. choker

He scored 13 points straight, against Russell, in teh 4th quarter in teh playoffs.

How many rings bitch.

**** you

**** you too.

By the way LAZ, I know you hate advanced stats, but here are some on wilt in that 64-65. take it how you want it, a +9 rating on offense is superb (overall +9 I meant)
Wilt was sick this year, and was hardly his regular self. bane of the first few games was defense, which isnt suprising.

technically, offense was similar to teh year before, defense just dropped due to Wilts Illness. going through motions and stuff like that right? something like that. Cant remember what he said.

That being said, only reason defense got better without wilt, otehr than wilt being ill (I dont think this effected his offense too heavily) is that Thurmond got to play in his correct position.

Looking at it it looks like while offense was somewhat teh same (obviously a bit worse but still) it was teh defense that suffered, so it looks like a good enough indicator of his offense.

Despite Thurmond playing in teh right positon and Paul and Connie coming, there was a marked improvement. adding in his defense Id say that it proves that 64 wilt was better than Russell in any year, though granted, its kinda that way for alot of things. I have Russell higher (starting to change my m ind tbh, but im just saying this so I dont get executed, I put them at a tie right now, because lets be honest, Russell probably is teh best leader ever, and I think that his consistency puts him on teh same pedestal, and his peak was top 7 too)
but I think wilt peaked higher, and honestly, russell's best season is probably [B]worse than 3 or 4 of Wilts. [/B]


1964-65 Warriors Total
119.7 poss/48 min
9651 poss/3870 min


Wilt In
4153 Pts Scored
4342 Pts Allowed
1801 Min
4491 Poss
92.5 ORtg
96.7 DRtg


Wilt Out
4312 Pts Scored
4618 Pts Allowed
2069 Min
5160 Poss
83.6 ORtg
89.5 DRtg

Based on this Id put his impact at teh top 5 level in his peak.

that might sound blasphemous, but my "top 5 peaks" are interchangable, though generally I have Jordan on top. (shaq, even for him, had an outlier year in 2000, so while wilts 3 best seasons are>Shaqs 3 imo, at the same time, I think that Shaqs best is about the same)

Generally, I have Jordan on top, and I find That Lebron in 09, Shaq in 00, and Wilt in 67 are interchangable (I also consider taking jordan out of that top spot at times)

I see teh top 4 peaks to basically be a wash.[/QUOTE]

Excellent post, as always.

I don't have time to comment on this right now, but all-in-all, outstanding post.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]I said had they beaten MJs Bulls twice, they would've been. Beating the GOAT twice carries a lot of weight.[/QUOTE]

I could see that if Utah won TWICE, but had they just beat Chicago in '98? They'd be more like the 95 Rockets. Reality is they weren't good enough to beat them, ergo they weren't on the level of those teams you listed in OP.

The 86 Celtics and quite a few Laker teams could and would've beaten some of those Bulls teams. Are you disputing this?

3ball is lying about the Bulls having the #1 all-time offense. They didn't post the highest ORTG ever or the highest ORTG differential, he's full of shit. This isn't the first time I've called him on it.

1986-1987 Lakers posted a 115.6 ORTG, higher than any season ORTG for the Bulls.

Steve Nash's Mavs/Suns posted better ORTG differentials.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]Bulls ORtg [COLOR="Blue"]with[/COLOR] Jordan 1991-1993[/B]:[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] [SIZE="3"][B]#1 all-time[/B][/SIZE] (115)

[B]Bulls ORtg [COLOR="red"]without[/COLOR] Jordan 1994[/B]:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] [B][SIZE="3"]14th in league[/SIZE][/B] (106)


[SIZE="4"]^^^^GOAT IMPACT[/SIZE]


[I]Keep in mind that these kind of ORtg comparisons are normally done with an on-off format, so the player in question is replaced by NOBODY - whereas the Bulls replaced Jordan with Kukoc.



More importantly, unlike the impact of most players, the offensive improvement the Bulls experienced with Jordan [COLOR="Navy"]didn't come at the expense of defense[/COLOR] - they had the 6th ranked defense in 1994, which is the same as 1991-1993 (4th, 7th, 4th).

Jordan enabled a TWO-WAY TEAM, which shouldn't be surprising since Popovich said Jordan was the standard for [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875185&postcount=49]two-way play[/url].[/I][/QUOTE]


You realize wilt was traded for 2 players right?

also, offensive rating is only useful, comparing across eras, and years, when looking at the lead on second place, and league average.

Don't have time for this today...

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Excellent post, as always.

I don't have time to comment on this right now, but all-in-all, outstanding post.[/QUOTE]


This entire thread makes no sense lmao

Context does not equal excuses

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]I could see that if Utah won TWICE, but had they just beat Chicago in '98? They'd be more like the 95 Rockets. Reality is they weren't good enough to beat them, ergo they weren't on the level of those teams you listed in OP.

The 86 Celtics and quite a few Laker teams could and would've beaten some of those Bulls teams. Are you disputing this?[/QUOTE]

I specifically said twice.

And many regard the 1986 Celtics as the GOAT team and the 1987 Lakers right there with them. Who knows what would've happened. It's all time great teams going at it.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]I specifically said twice.

And many regard the 1986 Celtics as the GOAT team and the 1987 Lakers right there with them. Who knows what would've happened. It's all time great teams going at it.[/QUOTE]

I know you did. But the Jazz had more opportunities as well (see: 1988, 1992 and 1996). It wasn't just the Bulls and Jordan denying them.

By your way of thinking, you and I could set up hypotheticals for ALL superstars and teams that we see fit.

[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]This entire thread makes no sense lmao

Context does not equal excuses[/QUOTE]

Pretty much.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]I know you did. But the Jazz had more opportunities as well (see: 1988, 1992 and 1996). It wasn't just the Bulls and Jordan denying them.

By your way of thinking, you and I could set up hypotheticals for ALL superstars and teams that we see fit.



Pretty much.[/QUOTE]

lol

FACT: MJ has 1 total playoff win without Pippen in 5 seasons

Another fact. MJ got two of his rings when he didn't have the HCA (1993 Suns and 1998 Jazz). As a matter of fact, in 1993, the Bulls didn't have HCA against the Knicks and Suns.

[QUOTE=dubeta]

[B][SIZE="3"]FACT[/SIZE][/B]: MJ has 1 total playoff win without Pippen in 5 seasons

[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="3"][B]FACT #1[/B][/SIZE]: MJ scored at least 10 ppg more than his 2nd option in every single playoff series OF HIS CAREER (except two, where he scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more).

He also led his team in passing by assisting on the highest proportion of teammate field goals (MJ led the Bulls in assist percentage for [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49]for both 3-peats[/url])... AND he played goat-level defense.

[I]To summarize[/I] - MJ led his team in scoring by the biggest margin ever, while also leading in passing and playing goat-level defense.. No other player in history has come anywhere NEAR carrying this kind of load.



[SIZE="3"][B]FACT #2[/B][/SIZE]: NBA.com tracks the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376]percentage of team points[/url] scored by a player [I]while they are on the floor[/I].

MJ scored 45-50% of his team's 4th quarter points in the 1997 and 1998 playoffs and Finals.. This dwarfs anyone else in the database by a mile.



[SIZE="3"][B]FACT #3[/B][/SIZE]: When you account for pace, MJ scored more than Wilt Chamberlain's 50 ppg season.

In 1987, the Bulls played at a 96 pace, compared to 131 for Philly during Wilt's 50 ppg season... Obviously, when you account for the pace difference, Wilt only averaged 33.5 ppg, or less than MJ's 37 ppg.. Of course, MJ's career [I]playoff[/I] average was 33.5 ppg, compared to Wilt's 22 ppg.

MJ is easily the greatest scorer of all time.. FAR BETTER THAN WILT CHAMBERLAIN.. These are the facts.. That is all.