Remember when 34-35 year old MJ was more dominant than 2000 Shaq?

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt]You don't understand. Jordan's teammates were a bunch of scrubs. He carried them singlehandedly through the first three-peat. In the process, he injected them with three-peat chemistry, and taught them how to play. Thus, the only reason the Bulls won 55 games in 94 is because of Jordan. That's how dominant Jordan was: he wins 55 games for the Bulls without even being in the league. That is statistical fact.[/QUOTE]

Well, those players did return back to the worthless scrubs that they were before Jordan, the very next season. Even MJ, himself, couldn't overcome their ineptitude.

Luckily, the Bulls brought in another career losing POS PF, who had never experienced a winning season, much less a title, the next year after that, and Jordan immediately turned him into a winner (albeit, making him much worse in the process.) Rodman came to the Bulls as a four time rebound champion, and while he would win three straight more rpg titles, by his last Finals, he could barely get 8 rpg. Just another example of Jordan's ability to create winners by making them worse.

Jordan's knack for taking scrubs, and making them even worse...but teaching them chemistry, which allowed them to win 55 games without him, is what truly separated MJ from a GOAT candidate like Magic. Magic was carried by HOF stacked rosters, but being the career loser that he was, that by the time he retired, they had completely forgotten how to play the game. Hell, look at KAJ. He was an MVP in Magic's rookie season, but after that he got progressively worse, and by his last season he was completely worthless. Magic basically killed his career. Oh sure, the rest of his teammates carried Magic for a while after Kareem retired, and even dragged his sorry ass to one more Final in his last season, but he had completely sucked the chemistry out of them, and the very next season they fell off the cliff.

Jordan was a "chemistry creator", and Magic was a "chemistry killer."

.
[COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"][I]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]



[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"]AS I SAID ORIGINALLY - 34-35 YEAR OLD JORDAN WAS FAR MORE DOMINANT THAN PRIME SHAQ

/THREAD[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[QUOTE=3ball].
[COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"][I]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]



[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"]AS I SAID ORIGINALLY - 34-35 YEAR OLD JORDAN WAS FAR MORE DOMINANT THAN PRIME SHAQ

/THREAD[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]
nope. his defense was no where near shaq level.

[QUOTE=AirBonner]

nope. his defense was no where near shaq level.

[/QUOTE]
Shaq wasn't a great defender - most years he wasn't elite at all.

Otoh, Jordan was the best defender at his position and 1st team all-defense in 1998 (9 first team all-defense selections in career).

Shaq wasn't the best defender at his position and was only 2nd-team all-defense in 2000 (only three 2nd-team selections in career, never 1st team)
.

[QUOTE=3ball]Shaq wasn't a great defender - most years he wasn't elite at all.

Otoh, Jordan was the best defender at his position and 1st team all-defense in 1998 (9 first team all-defense selections in career).

Shaq wasn't the best defender at his position and was only 2nd-team all-defense in 2000 (only three 2nd-team selections in career, never 1st team)
.[/QUOTE]

Peak Shaq's defensive impact was >>>>> 34-35 year old Jordan. It's ridiculous to argue otherwise. Shaq didn't always go all out on on defense, but when he did he was a beast, especially in the playoffs. He was not only a great rim protector and intimidator, he was a good PnR defender and athletic enough to switch out on the perimeter and still recover to defend the paint. Shaq could control the game on the defensive end in a way few if any players in history could.

The all-defense team argument is stupid. For one thing, there's only one spot for center and two for guards. More importantly, a big man has a much greater defensive impact than a guard. By your logic Kobe is a better defender than Hakeem, D-Rob, Garnett, Wallace, Mourning, Mutombo, etc....

[QUOTE=3ball]Shaq wasn't a great defender - most years he wasn't elite at all.

Otoh, Jordan was the best defender at his position and 1st team all-defense in 1998 (9 first team all-defense selections in career).

Shaq wasn't the best defender at his position and was only 2nd-team all-defense in 2000 (only three 2nd-team selections in career, never 1st team)
.[/QUOTE]

Peak Shaq was a DPOY level defender, a game changer on defense. He had much bigger impact there than 97' Jordan

[QUOTE=Dr Hawk]

Peak Shaq was a DPOY level defender, a game changer on defense. He had much bigger impact there than 97' Jordan

[/QUOTE]
^^^^ This is a clear overrating of Shaq's defense... But regardless, you guys aren't thinking through this correctly or logically.

The reason Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center doesn't matter in this comparison is because you're acting like the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL... But they had a center too.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - that's why the defensive end is a wash when comparing 2 great players at different positions - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).

Btw, you're overrating Shaq's defensive ability - he was solid when he wanted to be, but there's a reason he only made 3 second-team all defensive teams in his 19 year career, and never 1st team... He simply WASN'T a great defender.

[QUOTE=3ball]^^^^ This is a clear overrating of Shaq's defense... But regardless, you guys aren't thinking through this correctly or logically.

The reason Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center doesn't matter in this comparison is because you're acting like the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL... But they had a center too.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - that's why the defensive end is a wash when comparing 2 great players at different positions - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).

Btw, you're overrating Shaq's defensive ability - he was solid when he wanted to be, but there's a reason he only made 3 second-team all defensive teams in his 19 year career, and never 1st team... He simply WASN'T a great defender.[/QUOTE]
You mom should've just swallowed and spared the world of your idiocy.

[QUOTE=Dr.Hawk]

Peak Shaq... had much bigger impact there than 97' Jordan

[/QUOTE]
[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101

[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105


If we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well.

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing 2 great players [COLOR="blue"][I]at different positions[/I][/COLOR] - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).

Btw, unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively (imo)... the times he managed to shuffle his feet defensively were infrequent because he didn't have to come out on the perimeter often like today's bigs do, and he wasn't as good on the perimeter as say, Hakeem or Robinson.
.

[QUOTE=3ball][I]Again, the reason Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center doesn't matter in this comparison is because you're acting like the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL... But they had a center too.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - that's why the defensive end is a wash when comparing 2 great players at different positions - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).[/I]


[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101


[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]So Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]


[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105[/QUOTE]
Again, your mom should've just swallowed and spared the world of your idiocy.

[QUOTE=3ball]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101

[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105


If we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well.

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing 2 great players [COLOR="blue"]at different positions[/COLOR] - or if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).

[/QUOTE][QUOTE=aj1987]Again, your mom should've just swallowed and spared the world of your idiocy.[/QUOTE]
the argument above is sound as f.uck

[I]the stats show that longley offset shaq [I][COLOR="Navy"]in the boxscore[/COLOR][/I] more than kobe did mj - a lot more, which helps illustrate my argument above..[/I]

btw, i'm sure longley's defensive impact was closer to shaq's than you thought it was - you guys don't realize that longley was a solid defender, plus you're overrating Shaq.. longley was a big dude that took up space in the paint just like shaq did.

which brings me to my next point - unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively... the times he managed to shuffle his feet defensively were infrequent because he didn't have to come out on the perimeter often like today's bigs do, and he wasn't as good on the perimeter as say, Hakeem or Robinson.
.

aj1997, repost your last response because i deleted and resposted as you were responding.

[QUOTE=3ball]the argument above is sound as f.uck

[I]the stats show that longley offset shaq [I][COLOR="Navy"]in the boxscore[/COLOR][/I] more than kobe did mj - a lot more, which helps illustrate my argument above..[/I]

btw, i'm sure longley's defensive impact was closer to shaq's than you thought it was - you guys don't realize that longley was a solid defender, plus you're overrating Shaq.. longley was a big dude that took up space in the paint just like shaq did.

which brings me to my next point - unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively... inb4 you bring up far less frequent occasions where he managed to shuffle his massive feet defensively.[/QUOTE]
Your moms swallow game is strong AF.

MJ would be Jimmy Butler with worse defense today. :cheers:

[QUOTE=3ball]aj1997, repost your last response because i deleted and resposted as you were responding.[/QUOTE]
You really need help kid. I wouldn't mind recommending a couple therapists, depending upon your city.

Answer with yes/no to the following question please:

Did 00' O'Neal have more defensive impact than 97' or 98' Jordan?

[QUOTE=Dr Hawk]Answer with yes/no to the following question please:

Did 00' O'Neal have more defensive impact than 97' or 98' Jordan?[/QUOTE]

For sure .

.
[COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"][I][B]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"]....................[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]



[B][SIZE="2"][COLOR="Red"][I]As I said originally - 34/35 year old MJ was more dominant than prime Shaq - it wasn't even close, as the stats show above[/I][/color][/SIZE][/B]

[IMG]http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/031/549/19f.4604[/IMG]

[QUOTE=3ball].

[COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"][I][B]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]

[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]

[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Dr Hawk]

Answer with yes/no to the following question please:

Did 00' O'Neal have more defensive impact than 97' or 98' Jordan?

[/QUOTE]

You want me to answer your question, when not a single poster concedes any of the points I've made itt - and no one even brought up defense until I posted the stats above, proving MJ was the far more dominant player.
.

[QUOTE=Dr Hawk]

Answer with yes/no to the following question please:

Did 00' O'Neal have more defensive impact than 97' or 98' Jordan?

[/QUOTE]
When comparing a center to a guard, such as Shaq to MJ, it's useless to consider defense because they play different positions... If we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq's defense in the boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (seen below).

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing 2 great players [COLOR="navy"][I]at different positions[/I][/COLOR] - if anything, the edge should go to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league).


[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101

[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105

.
[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]



[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]



[B][SIZE="2"][COLOR="darkRed"][I]As I said originally - 34/35 year old MJ was more dominant than prime Shaq - it wasn't even close, as the stats show above[/I][/color][/SIZE][/B]


[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/bxnXSJV07za7e/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=3ball].
[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]



[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]



[B][SIZE="2"][COLOR="darkRed"][I]As I said originally - 34/35 year old MJ was more dominant than prime Shaq - it wasn't even close, as the stats show above[/I][/color][/SIZE][/B]


[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/bxnXSJV07za7e/giphy.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

That's a misleading stat because adding assists obviously favors MJ.

I will say that Shaq was more consistently DOMINANT but that MJ was more CLUTCH and carried the larger offensive load when the team needed it most. But MJ wasn't the same overall force he was like his first 3 peat. His rebounding/assists/steals all took a dive and for obvious reasons (age and having to carry a large offensive load). But MJ also wasn't as efficient as his 1st 3 peat either while Shaq was GOAT level efficient. All of this matters. There is no clear cut answer.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

But MJ also wasn't as efficient as his 1st 3 peat either [B][COLOR="Red"]while Shaq was GOAT level efficient.[/COLOR][/B] All of this matters. There is no clear cut answer.

[/QUOTE]

[B]It's weird how posters come on here and say things that are blatantly false:
[/B]

[b][COLOR="Navy"]O'Neal Efficiency in 2000 Playoffs[/COLOR][/b]: 55.6 ts.. 114 ORtg
[B][COLOR="Navy"]Jordan Efficiency in 1998 Playoffs[/COLOR][/B]: 54.5 ts.. 117 ORtg


Neither was GOAT-level, but MJ's was better


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]That's a misleading stat because adding assists obviously favors MJ.
[/COLOR][/B]
[/quote]
I'm curious - did the stats that included assists make you forget about the OP stats that just showed scoring???... I only added the assist stats because other posters were saying it was a factor.. Either way, it isn't close..


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

I will say that Shaq was more consistently DOMINANT but that MJ was more CLUTCH and carried the larger offensive load [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]when the team needed it most.[/COLOR][/B]

[/quote]
[I]MJ carried a much larger offensive load for the entire game, not just in the clutch, whether you look at just points, or points + assists.. The data speaks for itself... But it seems like you're only seeing what you want to see, which is amazing.[/I]

It's funny how the data always favors MJ, and it's the other guy that needs excuses to make up the gap - it's laughable..

Also, when you say Shaq was more consistently dominant - based on what?... Based on his FAR lower proportion of points, points + assists, or clutch play??... Or just because he's a big guy?... It's obviously the latter in your mind, since it CAN'T be any of the former.


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

But MJ wasn't the same overall force he was like his first 3 peat. His rebounding/assists/steals all took a dive and for obvious reasons (age and having to carry a large offensive load).

[/quote]
Obviously he wasn't the same force as the first 3-peat, but it doesn't matter when comparing to Shaq's prime:

As demonstrated by the OP stats (that show scoring) or the stats on this page (which include assists), MJ carried a much bigger offensive load than Shaq.

[QUOTE=3ball]I'm curious - did the stats that included assists make you forget about the OP stats that just showed scoring???... I only added the assist stats because other posters were saying it was a factor.. Either way, it isn't close..



[I]MJ carried a much larger offensive load for the entire game, not just in the clutch, whether you look at just points, or points + assists.. The data speaks for itself... But it seems like you're only seeing what you want to see, which is amazing.[/I]

It's funny how the data always favors MJ, and it's the other guy that needs excuses to make up the gap - it's laughable..

Also, when you say Shaq was more consistently dominant - based on what?... Based on his FAR lower proportion of points, points + assists, or clutch play??... Or just because he's a big guy?... It's obviously the latter in your mind, since it CAN'T be any of the former.



Obviously he wasn't the same force as the first 3-peat, but it doesn't matter when comparing to Shaq's prime:

As demonstrated by the OP stats (that show scoring) or the stats on this page (which include assists), MJ carried a much bigger offensive load than Shaq.




[B]It's weird how posters come on here and say things that are blatantly false:
[/B]

[b][COLOR="Navy"]O'Neal Efficiency in 2000 Playoffs[/COLOR][/b]: 55.6 ts.. 114 ORtg
[B][COLOR="Navy"]Jordan Efficiency in 1998 Playoffs[/COLOR][/B]: 54.5 ts.. 117 ORtg


Neither was GOAT-level, but MJ's was better
.[/QUOTE]

I see your points. I'm not here to argue against you but I disagree that it "wasn't close." It certainly was. And I already conceded that MJ was more clutch, carried a larger offensive load and provided more scoring when it mattered most. Those are huge concessions.

But some of your stats are misleading. Like TS%. That is pointless for a guy like Shaq because his bad FT% lowers his TS% tremendously. Shaq made 58% of his shots on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. That is tremendous efficiency. It's not like a D. Jordan or T. Chandler taking 5-8 shots a game.

A fair stat is PER:

Shaq 2000:

[B]RS: 30.6
PO: 30.5[/B]

MJ 1997 and 1998:

[B]RS: 26.5
PO: 27.6
[/B]

MJ's dip in PER is simply attributable to the lower FG% and lower overall impact in the other areas of the game. And that does matter. So I'm just saying it was close.

And Shaq's 2000 was historically efficient. His PER of 30.65 is 14th best all-time.

And ORTG is also not a fair stat to Shaq due to his poor FT shooting as the guy who invented the stat (Dean Oliver) said, "[I]Though [Shaquille O'Neal] may have a high floor percentage," Oliver writes, "his poor foul shooting means that he has a lot of one-point possessions, bringing his offensive rating down a bit."[/I]

Your view of FT shooting is the most biased thing I've ever read on ISH

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

[COLOR="Blue"]Dean Oliver (creator of TS and ORtg stat):[/COLOR]

[INDENT]"Though [Shaquille O'Neal] may have a high floor percentage," Oliver writes, "his poor foul shooting means that he has a lot of one-point possessions, bringing his offensive rating down a bit."[/INDENT]

[/QUOTE]
Your quote of Dean Oliver is useless - he isn't saying ORtg or TS shouldn't be used to measure Shaq's shooting efficiency.

He's explaining WHY these stats are lower for Shaq and other players, even though they make a high percentage of FG's - it's because they can't shoot FT's.


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

But some of your stats are misleading. Like TS%. [B][COLOR="Red"]That is pointless for a guy like Shaq because his bad FT% lowers his TS% tremendously.[/COLOR][/B] Shaq made 58% of his shots on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. That is tremendous efficiency. It's not like a D. Jordan or T. Chandler taking 5-8 shots a game.

[/QUOTE]
Are you serious or trolling?... why wouldn't we consider FT shooting?

That's one of the most biased and nonsensical things I've ever read on ISH, especially since it's common knowledge how much Shaq's FT shooting HURT the Lakers, and since FT shooting is one of the most important aspects of the game.

I'm amazed you're preaching that bullshit.

FT shooting COUNTS, bruh... And it makes Shaq's shooting efficiency NOT goat, and not even better than old MJ's... Their TS% was nearly the same, and Jordan's ORtg was higher.


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

[B][COLOR="Red"]A fair stat is PER:[/COLOR][/B]

Shaq 2000:

RS: 30.6
PO: 30.5[

MJ 1997 and 1998

RS: 26.5
PO: 27.6

[/QUOTE]
PER includes many things besides shooting efficiency.. The fair stat [B]for shooting efficiency[/B] is true shooting percentage or points-produced per possession (ORtg).

But if you prefer to use "[I][B]fair stats[/B][/I]" like PER, then here's another "[I]fair[/I]" stat - [I][B]win shares[/B][/I]:

[I][COLOR="Navy"]Jordan WS/48 in 97' & 98' playoffs[/COLOR][/I]: 0.260
[I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Shaquille [COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR]WS/48 in 2000 playoffs[/COLOR][/I]: 0.224


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

I see your points. I'm not here to argue against you.. And I already conceded that MJ was more clutch, carried a larger offensive load and provided more scoring when it mattered most. Those are huge concessions.

[B][COLOR="Red"]but I disagree that it "wasn't close." It certainly was.[/COLOR][/B]

[/quote]
[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B][COLOR="Blue"]You must be just looking at RS - look at the playoffs - it ISN'T close:[/COLOR][/B]


[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="2"][I]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"]....................[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]


[B][COLOR="Blue"]That...... isn't...... close.... MJ was far more dominant offensively[/COLOR][/B].
.

[QUOTE=3ball]I suck [COLOR="Black"]c[/COLOR]ock on a regular basis.[/QUOTE]
Still wish that your mom swallowed you, bro. At the least, she could've spit you out. :cheers:

[QUOTE=3ball]Your quote of Dean Oliver is useless - he isn't saying ORtg or TS shouldn't be used to measure Shaq's shooting efficiency.

He's explaining WHY these stats are lower for Shaq and other players, even though they make a high percentage of FG's - it's because they can't shoot FT's.



Are you serious or trolling?... why wouldn't we consider FT shooting?

That's one of the most biased and nonsensical things I've ever read on ISH, especially since it's common knowledge how much Shaq's FT shooting HURT the Lakers, and since FT shooting is one of the most important aspects of the game.

I'm amazed you're preaching that bullshit.

FT shooting COUNTS, bruh... And it makes Shaq's shooting efficiency NOT goat, and not even better than old MJ's... Their TS% was nearly the same, and Jordan's ORtg was higher.



PER includes many things besides shooting efficiency.. The fair stat [B]for shooting efficiency[/B] is true shooting percentage or points-produced per possession (ORtg).

But if you prefer to use "[I][B]fair stats[/B][/I]" like PER, then here's another "[I]fair[/I]" stat - [I][B]win shares[/B][/I]:

[I][COLOR="Navy"]Jordan WS/48 in 97' & 98' playoffs[/COLOR][/I]: 0.260
[I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Shaquille [COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR]WS/48 in 2000 playoffs[/COLOR][/I]: 0.224



[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B][COLOR="Blue"]You must be just looking at RS - look at the playoffs - it ISN'T close:[/COLOR][/B]


[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="2"][I]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"]....................[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]


[B][COLOR="Blue"]That...... isn't...... close.... MJ was far more dominant offensively[/COLOR][/B].
.[/QUOTE]

I know you are set in your ways and won't budge so i'll say this. Yes, FTs do matter but I would rather take a dominant force like Shaq who hits 50% FT than an average big who hits 70% FTs. Nothing is more impactful than actual in-game action and what you do in it. Shaq hit 58% of his shots from the field on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. Not to mention the huge amount of attention he attracted to free up other people.

And yeah, PER measures OVERALL efficiency, which is advantage Shaq. You didn't specify in your title that it was just about offense.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]I know you are set in your ways and won't budge so i'll say this. Yes, FTs do matter but I would rather take a dominant force like Shaq who hits 50% FT than an average big who hits 70% FTs. Nothing is more impactful than actual in-game action and what you do in it. Shaq hit 58% of his shots from the field on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. Not to mention the huge amount of attention he attracted to free up other people.

And yeah, PER measures OVERALL efficiency, which is advantage Shaq. You didn't specify in your title that it was just about offense.[/QUOTE]
Also, if you actually factor in clutch FT shooting, Shaq was amazing. Dude hit his FT's when they mattered. I still remember G3 in '06. Dude hit clutch AF FT's. Probably the most clutch FT's in Heat's history.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Still wish that your mom swallowed you, bro. At the least, she could've spit you out. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

Three times you posted this. That's the beauty of the internet. Being stupid is cool as long as no one really knows who you are. :facepalm

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Three times you posted this. That's the beauty of the internet. Being stupid is cool as long as no one really knows who you are. :facepalm[/QUOTE]
I would say it to his face. :confusedshrug:

You're an MJ stan as well, but I know that you're one of the more rational ones. Read his posts and tell me that his arbitrary stats, which he made up, make any sense. Please do. Dude is delusional AF and definitely needs mental help. Look up his post history, FFS.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Three times you posted this. That's the beauty of the internet. Being stupid is cool as long as no one really knows who you are. :facepalm[/QUOTE]


Correct . Someone did this in real life it's over in hospital or police station . Nobody shouldn't love or adopt others ideas . But everybody must respect every person .

Back to thread ,

Shaq and 98 Jordan had around same offensive impacts . Shaq had huge rebounding margin too(don't underestimate rebounding) . And Shaq had better defensive impact .

Jordan was far more clutch in anytime of his career than Shaq for sure .

Curry > Jordan.

MUCH higher offensive impact. It's like comparing a Siberian tiger to a bear.

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]Curry > Jordan.

MUCH higher offensive impact. It's like comparing a Siberian tiger to a bear.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. And MJ's defensive edge isn't as big as many people say. Pippen helped cover MJ's defensive liabilities. :D

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

Yes, FTs do matter but I would rather take a dominant force like Shaq who hits 50% FT than an average big who hits 70% FTs. Nothing is more impactful than actual in-game action and what you do in it.

I know you are [B][COLOR="Red"]set in your ways[/COLOR][/B] and won't budge

[/quote]
[B][COLOR="navy"]Set in "MY" ways?

That's EVERYBODY'S ways... FT shooting is one of the most important aspects of basketball and efficiency - this isn't "my" way - it's basketball.

Shaq is the guy that started hack-a-Shaq... You know that right?... His FT shooting was a massive drag on his team.. It's a good thing he had Kobe to take over in the 4th quarter:[/COLOR][/B]


[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"][I]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR][B]Finals 4th[/B]

[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]26.2[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]25.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]28.2[/url]

[I][B]KOBE 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]37.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]23.7[/url]
[I][B]KOBE 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]32.4[/url]


[B][COLOR="navy"]Seriously - you should disavow yourself of the notion that FT's somehow shouldn't be considered when evaluating Shaq's efficiency - it's absurd.[/COLOR][/B]


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Shaq hit 58% of his shots from the field[/COLOR][/B] on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. Not to mention the [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]huge amount of attention he attracted[/COLOR][/B] to free up other people.

[/QUOTE]
But that efficiency was dragged down by his WOAT free throw shooting.

And Shaq attracted attention, but not like MJ - MJ scored a higher proportion of his team's points, so defenses had more reason to be wary of him, especially since his #2 wasn't as good as Shaq's #2.


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

And yeah, PER measures OVERALL efficiency, which is advantage Shaq.

[/QUOTE]
And win shares is a measure of how much a player contributes to his team's wins... Advantage old MJ over prime Shaq.


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

You didn't specify in your title that it was just about offense.

[/QUOTE]
When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing an ATG center to an ATG guard - if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league, 9 first-team defense.... compared to Shaq's 3 second teams in 17 years, no first teams).


[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101

[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more than Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105


Btw, unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively (imo)... the times he managed to shuffle his feet defensively were infrequent because he didn't have to come out on the perimeter often like today's bigs do, and he wasn't as good on the perimeter as say, Hakeem or Robinson.
.

^ So what you are saying is: MJ had not only the help of Pippen, but an underappreciated and quietly dominant Luc Longley. Man, I never knew MJ had such a stacked team.

[QUOTE=Yoshi]

^ So what you are saying is: MJ had not only the help of Pippen, but an underappreciated and quietly dominant Luc Longley. Man, I never knew MJ had such a stacked team.

[/QUOTE]
The interesting thing about championship teams is that nearly ALL of them are great defensive teams.

Therefore, when comparing the supporting cast of two #1 options who led championship squads, the defensive side of the ball can be ignored - it's simply wash for nearly all championship teams.

On a somewhat unrelated note, regarding the defensive side of the ball for the Bulls - the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due [I]entirely[/I] to the absence of MJ's [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185]goat offense[/url], which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.
.

[QUOTE=Yoshi]Agreed. And MJ's defensive edge isn't as big as many people say. Pippen helped cover MJ's defensive liabilities. :D[/QUOTE]
Take Pippen off of the Bulls and Jordan goes 0/6...assuming he even manages to make the finals.

[QUOTE=3ball]The interesting thing about championship teams is that nearly ALL of them are great defensive teams.

Therefore, when comparing the supporting cast of two #1 options who led championship squads, the defensive side of the ball can be ignored - it's simply wash for nearly all championship teams.

On a somewhat unrelated note, the defensive side of the ball had little to do with the Bulls fall to 3-peat champs to 2nd Round in 1994: the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, [B][/B][url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185]goat offense[/url], which caused their ORtg tothe massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's crater from #1 all-time to 14th in the league.
.[/QUOTE]


I always get a kick out of this "massive decline"...

First of all, the Bulls were one completely blown call away from winning that second round series, 4-2. ONE BAD CALL.

Secondly, they nearly won that series with PETE MYERS and his 6 ppg average in that series.

Third...just the year before, the Bulls, with Jordan, struggled to beat that same Knick team, 4-2. And the year before that, it was 4-3.

Yep..."massive decline" alright...

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

Bulls were 3-peat champs with MJ and 2nd Round team without.

and were one play away from going down 0-3 and being swept... Thank god for Kukoc miracle to save some face before Pippen choked again in Game 5

[/QUOTE]
:applause: