Where would you put LeBron James on the all time list? Honest answers, please.

After 63 votes:

total points: 477
average: 7.57


goat and not top 15 votes excluded:

votes: 41
total points: 268
average: 6.54


So far... LeBron is still number 7ish.

[QUOTE=bullettooth]Did you read my full comment?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but how is being in Wilt territory(top 5) dropping like a rock and you made the argument by saying West's legacy is pretty bad.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]After 63 votes:

total points: 477
average: 7.57


goat and not top 15 votes excluded:

votes: 41
total points: 268
average: 6.54


So far... LeBron is still number 7ish.[/QUOTE]


take away simons votes and he's out of the top 10

:lol

[QUOTE=Overdrive]Yeah, but how is being in Wilt territory(top 5) dropping like a rock and you made the argument by saying West's legacy is pretty bad.[/QUOTE]

If you consider LeBron now as #1 (which he's not) or even at #2 which I don't think he is but for the sake of the argument, let's say he is... going from #2 to #5 or so certainly is significant RELATIVE to the first 5-10 spots.

LeBron's legacy WILL take a hit. He won't be remembered as anything but the guy that kept losing but lucked out with a few rings.

Wilt is 2/6
LeBron is 3/9
West is 1/8

He's the best of the three... but that's where he's going to sit when the dust settles.

He is 100% top 5 and possibly top 3.

[COLOR=Teal][B]An as athlete he's top-5 alltime, skills-wise I'd say top 25. Mentally/intangibles, hard to pinpoint but he's definitely not top-15. I'd rank him 10th alltime.
[/B][/COLOR]

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen]take away simons votes and he's out of the top 10

:lol[/QUOTE]


Actually, he is not.

If I take away all goat votes and keep the rest the same:

54 votes
482 points
average: 8.93

So 9th.


With all votes counted so far.

65 votes
493 points
average: 7.58


7th or 8th place on ISH. Best is 6th. Worst is 9th.

Top 15 consensus. You could make a case for borderline Top 10 but that's about it.

OP, gotta make the votes public, so we see were everyone stands, not hiding behind that keyboard.

And here I thought he was the unanimous GOAT...poor Lebron stans, its going downhill quick lately for your guy...

[QUOTE=Overdrive]Kobe was top10 in 2010. Now you guys argue he's #12 and falling. The player who passed him when he was considered 7-10ish? Lebron. 1 guy.

The reality is that accomplishments' novelty wears off after time. Players are only ranked accurately after they're retired.[/QUOTE]
2 guys had success after 2010 in the arguable top 10. Lebron and Duncan and with that Kobe's place was always polarizing due to the Shaq rings, so in his case it's not much of a surprise is it? Weighing his 2nd option rings always has been a murky task.

[QUOTE=PickernRoller]Top 15 consensus. You could make a case for borderline Top 10 but that's about it.

OP, gotta make the votes public, so we see were everyone stands, not hiding behind that keyboard.[/QUOTE]


Results are usually more reliable if a vote is anonymous. The investigation for me was about WHAT this board thinks and not WHO thinks what. You do already know that from all the other threads anyway, don't you? I mean.. you know what screennames publicly tell you about their opinions.

These results are... well, interesting.

71 votes
534 points
avg: 7.52

extremes excluded:

47 votes
306 points
avg: 6.51


And the median is top 10ish.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]2 guys had success after 2010 in the arguable top 10. Lebron and Duncan and with that Kobe's place was always polarizing due to the Shaq rings, so in his case it's not much of a surprise is it? Weighing his 2nd option rings always has been a murky task.[/QUOTE]


Hakeem kept climbing upwards long after he retired. At his peak years in the NBA him and David Robinson were looked at 1A and 1B at the center position. And for most of their careers Patrick Ewing Was viewed at as a legit 1C.

These days it's hard to imagine... but in 1993... Hakeem was 'a good center'. In 1996 probably a great center. But not top 10 all time material. He became the 'legendary Dream'... I don't know when. But not in 1995. Yes, he overtook Robinson and Ewing with those rings then... but noone was talking about top 15 player ever then.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]Results are usually more reliable if a vote is anonymous. The investigation for me was about WHAT this board thinks and not WHO thinks what. You do already know that from all the other threads anyway, don't you? I mean.. you know what screennames publicly tell you about their opinions. [/QUOTE]

When you have to put your skin (username) on the line, be open to criticism or riducule that's when you know, for real, how committed and how confident you're in your position and opinion. With anonymity you throw objectivity out the table and settle safely on hyperbole - not to mention, you'll never know for sure how significant alt brigading was to the voting results (you can only guess). That's not to say there aren't going to be clowns voting public... but those are already factored in and easy to see. What you want to see is where the more level headed posters fall. That's why public polls are and will always be the best.

I disagree on your take. Hence my threads and way of doing things.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]Hakeem kept climbing upwards long after he retired. At his peak years in the NBA him and David Robinson were looked at 1A and 1B at the center position. And for most of their careers Patrick Ewing Was viewed at as a legit 1C.

These days it's hard to imagine... but in 1993... Hakeem was 'a good center'. In 1996 probably a great center. But not top 10 all time material. He became the 'legendary Dream'... I don't know when. But not in 1995. Yes, he overtook Robinson and Ewing with those rings then... but noone was talking about top 15 player ever then.[/QUOTE]
in 93 Hakeem was a [I]good[/I] center?? That's insane, you do realize that like 4 guys entered the top 10 after his career right? The one guy who got jobbed was Moses. Nobody even mentions him anymore after being considered up there back in those days. But Dream? you gotta be kidding me, I've always had him in the top 10 after that peak he had. Whether or not he was in the lower end to be pushed out 1st is another topic.

You wanna talk about climbing while never playing another game and Russell would be your guy. He's now universally regarded above Wilt though that wasn't the case in the 80s or 90s. The need to validate Jordans goat case with rings had the unintended side effect of elevating Bill's case at the same time.

[QUOTE=PickernRoller]What you want to see is where the more level headed posters fall. That's why public polls are and will always be the best.[/QUOTE]


I have no problem with that approach. For some ideas I'd prefer public voting myself. That's good for other reasons. At any rate, if you look at the data gathered here you will see this:

One third of the voters think extreme. (goat and not top 15 are extremes)
Roughly half the board thinks LeBron is somewhere in the 4th-11th range. (an avg of 7.5)
The average of all votes is also 7.5

Based on this board LeBron is top 10 but not top 5. If you exclude all votes for goat he is still 9th... so top 10 but not top 5. If you exclude all 'not top 15' votes he is number 6. Still... top 10, not top 5.

That's what we wanted to know. This is in pretty harsh contrast to/with talking heads in the media.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]in 93 Hakeem was a [I]good[/I] center?? That's insane, you do realize that like 4 guys entered the top 10 after his career right? The one guy who got jobbed was Moses. [/QUOTE]

The way I remember Olajuwon was thought of being very good in 1993 but that's it. He kept rising on these lists long after he retired. His image aged well. Ewings didn't.

You are absolutely right about Moses. But it was over for him by 2000, I think. Ha wasn't much talked about on this board in 2001 either, I'm sure.

OP is one of the best posters on the board and exudes everything the original ISH Handsome Man wanted to be.

That is all.

Top 3 quite easily. People voting top 10ish, top 15, and not top 15 should be castrated to prevent them from spreading their idiocy. Not that they have to chance to spread it anyways, but better safe than sorry.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Top 3 quite easily. People voting top 10ish, top 15, and not top 15 should be castrated to prevent them from spreading their idiocy. Not that they have to chance to spread it anyways, but better safe than sorry.[/QUOTE]


Unfortunately, opinions don't work that way. You may have yours others have theirs. You don't need message boards for facts. You need a database.

Yes, if you exclude most everyone who thinks differently you will end up with your opinion as the one and only 'valid' opinion. It's called a bubble. This exactly is the reason why people just don't understand how politicians keep getting elected or TV shows they don't like aired.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]Unfortunately, opinions don't work that way. You may have yours others have theirs. You don't need message boards for facts. You need a database.

Yes, if you exclude most everyone who thinks differently you will end up with your opinion as the one and only 'valid' opinion. It's called a bubble. This exactly is the reason why people just don't understand how politicians keep getting elected or TV shows they don't like aired.[/QUOTE]
I don't mind if reasonable and rational people have opinions. Just don't care about opinions from mouth breathing morons. Lets say if a person legit believes that LeBron is top 6-8 and has a decent discussion, I wouldn't mind debating that person. However, when people (especially Kobe stans on here) keep spamming the same asinine BS, with zero intelligent thoughts put into their posts, then yeah, they need to be castrated for the betterment of humankind.

I mean, 21 people voted for top 15 and not top 15. I would LOVE to see what their lists are like.

[QUOTE=aj1987]I don't mind if reasonable and rational people have opinions. Just don't care about opinions from mouth breathing morons. Lets say if a person legit believes that LeBron is top 6-8 and has a decent discussion, I wouldn't mind debating that person. However, when people (especially Kobe stans on here) keep spamming the same asinine BS, with zero intelligent thoughts put into their posts, then yeah, they need to be castrated for the betterment of humankind.

I mean, [B]21 people[/B] voted for top 15 and not top 15. I would LOVE to see what their lists are like.[/QUOTE]


And 23 people voted top 3. Something I personally find VERY hard to justify. Half of those people voted number one. Pretty insane, isn't it?

But what can we do? If we can't accept it... then what? Maybe a message board is not for such people who can't accept 'idiots'. Or... you may limit your time spent arguing with them. Or... you may ask: but why?

[QUOTE=E_Stamkos]OP is one of the best posters on the board and exudes everything the original ISH Handsome Man wanted to be.

That is all.[/QUOTE]

:cheers:

Actually, that's a picture of me in my avy from mid 2006. I look even better now... if it is at all possible. :oldlol:

Solidly #7 on my list. Could rise or drop over time but I don't think he'll ever fall out of the top ten.

The 3-1/73-9 comeback is probably the height of his career, it's going to look better as time goes on.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]And 23 people voted top 3. Something I personally find VERY hard to justify.

But what can we do? If we can't accept it... then what? Maybe a message board is not for such people who can't accept 'idiots'. Or... you may limit your time spent arguing with them. Or... you may ask: but why?[/QUOTE]
There's 2 people in the history of the sport with 4 or more MVP's and 3 or more MVP's.

Most All-NBA First teams (will likely end up with most All-NBA selections overall as well).

First player to hit 30k/8k/8k.

Top 5 all time in scoring (will likely end up top 2).

Most points ever in the PO's, top 3 in assists, and top 5 in rebounds.

Incredible career averages at all 3 stages (RS, PO's, and Finals).

Greatest G7 performer of all time.

Greatest elimination game performer of all time.

I could keep going and going. there's pretty much no reason to exclude LeBron from the top 3.

As I said, I wouldn't mind having a debate with a reasonable and rational person like you, but some of the other... lol **** that. It's easier to just call them an idiot and move on. Numerous times, I've actually wasted time typing up a post with actual facts, only for those idiots to retort with "but but lebronze suxxxQ!! :rant :rant ". So yeah..

Should have made it top 5 ish then clear top 10 or put another choice in between like top 5, 6 or 7 ish then top 10 ish.

Really poor choices.

[QUOTE=aj1987]As I said, I wouldn't mind having a debate with a reasonable and rational person like you, but some of the other... lol **** that. It's easier to just call them an idiot and move on. Numerous times, I've actually wasted time typing up a post with actual facts, only for those idiots to retort with "but but lebronze suxxxQ!! :rant :rant ". So yeah..[/QUOTE]


People aren't rational. You are not. I am not. Nobody is. We have tendencies to rationalize. That's how the brain works. At first you have instincts... then feelings... and then comes the cognitive part. Some people are better at rationalizing and some are better at getting their points across.

And you may call me someone you like to talk to (thanks, I do appreciate it), however, you think LeBron is easily top 3 and I think he is borderline top 10. Both of us know the facts. We both have seen his career. Still, we strongly disagree.

I like it. :rockon:

[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]Should have made it top 5 ish then clear top 10 or put another choice in between like top 5, 6 or 7 ish then top 10 ish.

Really poor choices.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. That's a good point. I realized it myself but it was too late. But it would not change the results greatly. I played with the numbers... and the end result was always between 6-9.

7th or 8th is the consensus here. (Actually, it isn't a consensus. It's the result. But whatever.)

It's 38 top 5 and 39 outside the top 5

But if you factor out the alts ...

He's easily top 5 and probably top 3 of the guys I have seen in my lifetime. So basically Magic/Bird era to now. I haven't seen guys like Russell, Wilt, West, Baylor, Oscar, etc. Even Kareem and Moses I don't feel comfortable evaluating.

So if I were to add a cushion of guys from past eras: top 5 would be my call.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]People aren't rational. You are not. I am not. Nobody is. We have tendencies to rationalize. That's how the brain works. At first you have instincts... then feelings... and then comes the cognitive part. Some people are better at rationalizing and some are better at getting their points across.

And you may call me someone you like to talk to (thanks, I do appreciate it), however, you think LeBron is easily top 3 and I think he is borderline top 10. Both of us know the facts. We both have seen his career. Still, we strongly disagree.

I like it. :rockon:[/QUOTE]
As I said, we might disagree, but I wouldn't mind having a discussion with you. At least you'll bring in some facts into the argument. That's my point.

[QUOTE=Marchesk]It's 38 top 5 and 39 outside the top 5

But if you factor out the alts ...[/QUOTE]


Alts tend to vote goat and not top 15. If not that then top 3 and top 15. If you exclude all these votes... watch out:

[U]All votes:[/U]

votes: 78
points: 575
avg: 7.4


[U]goat and not top 15 excluded:[/U]

votes: 54
points: 347
avg: 6.4



[U]goat excluded:[/U]

votes: 66
points: 563
avg: 8.5


[U]not top 15 excluded:[/U]

votes: 66
points: 359
avg: 5.4


It is safe to say the 'real result' is very close to the actual result. 7-8 ish. If you exclude this, a little better if you exclude that, a little worse. Outside the top 5 inside the top 10 either way.

[QUOTE=aj1987]As I said, we might disagree, but I wouldn't mind having a discussion with you. At least you'll bring in some facts into the argument. That's my point.[/QUOTE]


I get it.

But sometimes you don't need facts. Who do you think is the best cook? Well... what do you like to eat? You have a right to form an opinion that you don't want to defend. You don't have to defend it. You may... try. :oldlol: Opinions are opinions because they are not facts. So you can't really prove them.

Or to put it in another way. Your opinion is not factual. Something you strongly believe will not make that belief a fact. However... you do think what you think and this IS a fact. When it comes to opinions the only fact you do have is your opinion being yours.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]I get it.

But sometimes you don't need facts. [B]Who do you think is the best cook? Well... what do you like to eat?[/B] You have a right to form an opinion that you don't want to defend. You don't have to defend it. You may... try. :oldlol: Opinions are opinions because they are not facts. So you can't really prove them.

Or to put it in another way. Your opinion is not factual. Something you strongly believe will not make that belief a fact. However... you do think what you think and this IS a fact. When it comes to opinions the only fact you do have is your opinion being yours.[/QUOTE]
That's a poor analogy though. Food preference is 100% subjective, with no criteria for what tastes better. While sports can certainly be subjective to an extent, there's definitely more concrete evidence and result based criteria people can use to judge and compare athletes or teams.

You can play devils advocate all you like, but there's no criteria imaginable that could realistically leave LeBron outside of the top 10 of all time.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]That's a poor analogy though. Food preference is 100% subjective, with no criteria for what tastes better. While sports can certainly be subjective to an extent, there's definitely more concrete evidence and result based criteria people can use to judge and compare athletes or teams.[/QUOTE]


As for who you think the best is, no such criteria. It's not about most points. Or most rings. Those things are measurable. Best is not.



[QUOTE]You can play devils advocate all you like, but there's no criteria imaginable that could realistically leave LeBron outside of the top 10 of all time.[/QUOTE]


Okay then. So there are some people who by your standards have 'unrealistic opinions'. So what? This is only your opinion. And I may find (I actually do find) this opinion of yours rather unrealistic. Labeling others' opinions unrealistic is not being realistic about what the word opinion means.

I can tell you that there are 'no criteria imaginable' by which you can think LeBron is top 2 all time. And? What does it mean? Nothing. There are people who DO think he is top 2 all time.

I have LeBron currently at 3 behind Jordan and Kareem (and I

As the great George Carlin said:

'Do I have a right to my opinion?'
'Yes. But so do I. And my opinion is you don't have a right to your opinion.'

:cheers:

By the way the result is getting closer to number 7.

once you take out the alt votes of u know who, we get a weighed average of not top 15 :rockon:

[QUOTE=Mr. Jabbar]once you take out the alt votes of u know who, we get a weighed average of not top 15 :rockon:[/QUOTE]


If you exclude the extremes it never gets worse than number 9. And never better than number 6. It is what it is. Top 10, not top 5.

In order to buy a borderline top 10 or not top 15 type of ranking I'd really have to see your top 10 and discuss it with you to see if you stay consistent throughout. Most "lists" get too cute with criteria and end up stepping on their own feet. For the record i can't fathom Lebron being simply borderline top 10.