Narrative has gone from
"LeBron diminishes star team mates"
To
"LeBron raises star team mates so much that I have to reassess my GOAT list regarding past all time greats"
Smh
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Narrative has gone from
"LeBron diminishes star team mates"
To
"LeBron raises star team mates so much that I have to reassess my GOAT list regarding past all time greats"
Smh
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
1. Right. You can use things other than stats. The problem here is that you have to pick if the stats are meaningful or not. Meaning...why even use them for MJ if you don't think they are worth anything? By using them, you are giving them credence.
[/quote]
No, I'm just pointing out that there's no capacity in which Lebron beats MJ - not stats, not championship impact, not skills, not winning, not mentality
nothing
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
3. Yes, Celtics were better in 08 despite the Lakers being the favorite. I agree. 2010? No, the Lakers were better all year. I disagree about 16...the Warriors were a historically good team that was coming off a title and the best regular season ever. This was not because people felt Lebron wasn't good enough...it was about the Warriors being all-time great.
[/quote]
The 2010 Lakers won more games and were better all year, but the Celtics were better on paper - similarly, the 16' Warriors were better all year but the Cavs were better on paper and should've been flirting with 70 wins like Kawhi and Curry did.
Kobe would've had the juggernaut in 2016 that Lebron never had, and this would've resulted in a better team in 2017 too.. Kyrie also wouldn't need to leave, since Kobe wouldn't [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhjHGdKAvbg&t=0m47s]"take the point"[/url] from Kyrie every night like Lebron did... :roll:
Do you really have an excuse for why Curry won 70+ with Klay/Dray, and Lebron couldn't even win 60 with Kyrie/Love?.. The only excuse is that Curry's skillset allowed a superior brand of ball that turned role players like Draymond into HOF's and resulted in a great regular season team.. And Kerr ain't shit as a coach.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
4. I don't think it is all statistics at all. Lebron's passing and game managing was better than Kobe's. Lebron's ability to attack the rim was better. He was better defensively. He has better longevity as you've conceded. He was just a smarter player as well...didn't take as many terrible shots. Better transition player in terms of offense and defense. Better 3 point shooter as well. More durable and less injury prone.
[/quote]
But he needs to dominate the ball to get elite stats - that's the problem - if you're coaching lebron, you're [U]forced[/U] to let him handle the rock all the time, because he can't get elite stats any other way - if you take him off the ball, you marginalize your best player.
Coaches didn't have the issue with Kobe - he was good enough to get his max stats regardless of where you put him.. This maximized teammates and brand, so his teams were much better.. it's intuitive and there's no refuting this historical record.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
I understand what you mean to say...Kobe was more skilled than Lebron..and I completely agree with that, but that doesn't translate automatically to better player. It can, but it doesn't here. Lebron was just a different level of an athlete than Kobe was and it showed in their impact.
[/quote]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=475199[/url]
championship impact my ass.. that's a myth... and it explains why lebron doesn't have as many rings as Morey thinks he would normally have
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
5. Kobe went all out? Dude, post like 2011 he basically stopped trying at all on defense. Honestly, post like 2001 his defense fell off quite a bit in terms of effort. Again, read the Backpicks writeup on Kobe that details some of this.
[/quote]
Okay, fair enough
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
6. Forget about winning? Are you arguing that Lebron somehow hasn't won a lot in his career? He's going to go down as one of the most winning players in NBA history. Not sure what you mean to say here.
[/quote]
He won by obtaining the extra/exhorbitant talent needed to offset his suboptimal, teammate-marginalizing style
He literally needed a 25 ppg scorer at 3rd option, so he could reduce it to 15 and still win.. If Love or Bosh were just 20 point scorers, then Lebron probably doesn't win if he reduces them to 10 ppg… He needed juggernaut 25 ppg scorers, so he could reduce them to 15.
And yes, I know he won with Love at 9 ppg in 2016, but Kyrie was probably 6-7 ppg above a normal #2, so it's moot.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
7. Yes, Lebron was drawing dead in some finals. 07 for sure...and pretty dead in 15 because of injuries...and truly dead in 17 and 18. Are you actually arguing that 4th year Kobe is winning the 07 title on the Cavs? Are you actually arguing that Kobe wins titles in 15/17/18 on the Cavs? I mean, I'd get it if you were talking about 11...and I'd agree, but 07/15/17/18...that just isn't happening man. That was my point...you are holding things against Lebron that no player in history is for sure winning. Jordan, for example, would have a better chance, but he's close to dead in 17 and 18...if not dead...maybe he could have gotten 15...maybe.
But Kobe? The **** if he's getting a ring in 07/15/17/18...[/QUOTE]
Kobe would've won in 2011, 2014, and possibly 2017..
Remember, Lebron had enough talent to have 70-win juggernauts from 2015-2017 - Curry did, so why not Lebron?
Kobe would've fulfilled the potential and had juggernaut teams with Kyrie, not 50-win garbage underdogs like Lebron had...
It would've looked totally different - KD/Curry's warriors wouldn't be easy favorites over Kobe/Kyrie.. And Love/Klay cancel out, while Dray is a scrub...
So Lebron simply underachieved in 2017... big time.. can you really justify him winning 53 games that year or whatever he won?... :biggums:
[QUOTE=AussieSteve]Narrative has gone from
"LeBron diminishes star team mates"
To
"LeBron raises star team mates so much that I have to reassess my GOAT list regarding past all time greats"
Smh[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll:
Facts
1. Nah, we know you think there is some validity to those objective measures. Regardless, even if you didn't...you'd be operating in the completely subjective arena which is rather pointless because of all of our biases and preferences. I agree it should be a combination, but to negate all objective measures isn't useful.
2. Again, I disagree about 2010 and 2016. But, when it comes to 16...what does it matter? Lebron won and was great.
3. As you know, I agree that Lebron's style can at times be suboptimal. This is why I don't rate him as highly as others do. Problem is...this is true for Kobe as well in terms of his style being suboptimal...again...please go read the breakdown of Kobe at Backpicks...it details much of this. Also, to say coaches didn't have issues with Kobe is either the result of ignorance or more blatant lying. Come on now...
4. Lebron doesn't have as many rings as he should have because of what I consider to be one of, if not the biggest, meltdowns by a star in NBA history. To argue that Lebron should have more than 4 rings based on his circumstances is insane...unless one were to think he's the GOAT...which obviously isn't true here. A fair question would be, why are your expectations so high for a player you don't think was nearly as good as most do?
5. Kobe won with some of the most stacked teams relative to competition in NBA history. To use the "help" argument here against Lebron is pretty bad even for you. No doubt Lebron has played on a bunch of loaded teams since 2010, but Kobe over the course of his career did as well.
Again, you are using title or bust here. We all agree about Lebron in 11. However, this is a direct parallel to that for Kobe in 04...and I mean direct. Do we have to pretend like Wade/Bosh were playing at great levels in 14? Please don't do that. Do we have to pretend about 2015 out there with nobody? Do we have to pretend like there was a real chance in 17/18?
The problem when making this argument against Lebron in favor of Kobe is that the only counter is that Kobe wasn't good enough yet to win with Shaq. He failed as the favorite in 99. Was carried in the finals in 00. Again, imagine Lebron winning a title playing like Kobe did in 00...I swear...I'd worry about you. Then he loses as the favorite in 03 and 04. Loses again as the favorite in 08 and gets upset in 11...then, as you said...really started declining. That just doesn't holde up very well when the same stuff is thrown back at him. It is just...3 titles while being the 2nd best player on his own team...that inflates his titles won for his circumstances.
I will say this again and it needs to be dealt with. Kobe in the 00 finals was actually not even as good as Lebron in 11...and he got a title out of it. Ask me again why I don't like counting up titles to compare great players...LOL
6. 2011? Yes. Other years? No, he's not. The notion that Kobe is getting a title off the Durant Warriors tells me everything I need to know here...just an absurd take. I might as well just say I think Lebron wins 6 titles in his first 8 years with Shaq. Honestly probably a better chance of that happening than Kobe, in year 14 of his career...beating those Warriors.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Nope, not at all.
The point was to show the inconsistency...like going hard after Lebron for losing the 07 finals...but making no comment about Kobe not even making the finals in 99 as the title favorite with Shaq.
You see, one should have to be remotely consistent in their arguments to be taken seriously.[/QUOTE]
nah. 3ball is consistent. It just that its substance based thats why you dont see it coz youre a stats guy.
[QUOTE=knicksman]nah. 3ball is consistent. It just that its substance based thats why you dont see it coz youre a stats guy.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, to argue that it is fair to go after Lebron for his performance in the 07 finals...but not fair to go after Kobe in the 99 playoffs...isn't consistent.
Doesn't matter what type of "guy" I am...even though you are off-base there as well in how you are categorizing it.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Sorry, to argue that it is fair to go after Lebron for his performance in the 07 finals...but not fair to go after Kobe in the 99 playoffs...isn't consistent.
Doesn't matter what type of "guy" I am...even though you are off-base there as well in how you are categorizing it.[/QUOTE]
What are you smoking? Kobe was 20 years old playing on a bad ankle in a much tougher defensive environment. Comparing those two series equally is far from being consistent.
Kobe played the same spurs team the next year in 08 and dropped 29/6/4 with 58.5% TS
[QUOTE=warriorfan]What are you smoking? Kobe was 20 years old playing on a bad ankle in a much tougher defensive environment. Comparing those two series equally is far from being consistent.[/QUOTE]
LOL
He was in his 3rd year playing on the team favored to win the title. He had Shaq on his team. And he got swept out of the playoffs.
To argue that Lebron making the finals in year 4 playing with nobody approaching Kobe's help and losing to a Spurs team that was better than the 99 team that beat the Lakers...is worse...
Is exactly the type of double standard I'm talking about.
Lebron overachieves with his team to get to the finals. Kobe gets swept in round 2 as the title favorite starting the season.
But, yep, it is fair to hammer Lebron and not Kobe...makes sense.
Uhhh...yea, because Kobe in 08 was a better player than Lebron was in 07 and had a much better team...and the Spurs were worse. Let me guess...it doesn't matter that Manu was hurt either...right? Ever actually take the time to think about this?
Exactly my point...not consistent at all. Always an excuse for Kobe.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]LOL
He was in his 3rd year playing on the team favored to win the title. He had Shaq on his team. And he got swept out of the playoffs.
To argue that Lebron making the finals in year 4 playing with nobody approaching Kobe's help and losing to a Spurs team that was better than the 99 team that beat the Lakers...is worse...
Is exactly the type of double standard I'm talking about.
Lebron overachieves with his team to get to the finals. Kobe gets swept in round 2 as the title favorite starting the season.
But, yep, it is fair to hammer Lebron and not Kobe...makes sense.
Uhhh...yea, because Kobe in 08 was a better player than Lebron was in 07. Ever actually take the time to think about this?[/QUOTE]
[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DiJZjmrUy68[/url]
He was injured and didn’t even play a game lol. Man you are a dumb piece of shit. Good luck with that.
Edit: oh you are talking about the 99 playoffs and not the finals, point still stands comparing a player when they are 20 to someone who is 22 and saying it doesn’t mean anything is bullshit. For two I would love to see LeBron James go against David Robinson and Tim Duncan. Dude would get shut down so badly it wouldn’t even be funny. You are still a [COLOR="Black"]f[/COLOR]ucking idiot
:rolleyes:
When I think about this analysis it sounds like a pro LeBron thread as much as Im sure he didnt mean for it to be. Before the start of this season AD was a fringe top 15 player in the league by most accounts and now after playing 16 games with James he is drawing Kareem comparisons? Dont you see the connection and how this is a pro Lebron comment?
[QUOTE=warriorfan][url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DiJZjmrUy68[/url]
He was injured and didn’t even play a game lol. Man you are a dumb piece of shit. Good luck with that.[/QUOTE]
He played 4 games in the sweep dude. Do you really think I don't remember this?
You are confusing the 99 playoffs and the 00 finals...who is the dumb piece of shit now?
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Sorry, to argue that it is fair to go after Lebron for his performance in the 07 finals...but not fair to go after Kobe in the 99 playoffs...isn't consistent.
Doesn't matter what type of "guy" I am...even though you are off-base there as well in how you are categorizing it.[/QUOTE]
except that he didnt. Hes comparing kobe in 2008-10 with lebron in 2011-14. Which is a fair comparison although lebron has a superteam.
[QUOTE=knicksman]except that he didnt. Hes comparing kobe in 2008-10 with lebron in 2011-14. Which is a fair comparison although lebron has a superteam.[/QUOTE]
Actually no, that isn't what we've been discussing.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
3. As you know, I agree that Lebron's style can at times be suboptimal. This is why I don't rate him as highly as others do. Problem is...this is true for Kobe as well in terms of his style being suboptimal...again...please go read the breakdown of Kobe at Backpicks...it details much of this. Also, [COLOR="Blue"][B]to say coaches didn't have issues with Kobe[/B][/COLOR] is either the result of ignorance or more blatant lying. Come on now...
[/quote]
[SIZE="3"]they had an issue with kobe, but he's FAR more coachable than Lebron.
Lebron is infact NOT coachable.. He rejected coaching from everyone, including [url=https://sports.yahoo.com/lebron-james-reportedly-ignoring-luke-waltons-play-calls-nobodys-surprise-210514450.html]Walton[/url], [url=http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/lebron-james-attitude-listen-to-tyronne-lue-cavs-heat-david-blatt/hjmyp8w984gi1xkzex534zc19]Lue[/url], [url=https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/12/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-david-blatt-rift]Blatt[/url], and [url=https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-miami-heat-news-0402-20150401-story.html]Spolestra[/url]
He always ran lebron-ball instead of getting coached, so the next Phil Jackson wasn't allowed[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
4. Lebron doesn't have as many rings as he should have because of what I consider to be one of, if not the biggest, meltdowns by a star in NBA history. To argue that Lebron should have more than 4 rings based on his circumstances is insane...unless one were to think he's the GOAT...which obviously isn't true here. A fair question would be, why are your expectations so high for a player you don't think was nearly as good as most do?
[/quote]
There's no excuse for him losing in 2014.. None... Except to take it easy on him
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
Again, you are using title or bust here. We all agree about Lebron in 11. However, this is a direct parallel to that for Kobe in 04...and I mean direct. [B][COLOR="darkred"]Do we have to pretend like Wade/Bosh were playing at great levels in 14? [/COLOR][/B]Please don't do that. Do we have to pretend about 2015 out there with nobody? Do we have to pretend like there was a real chance in 17/18?
[/quote]
Bosh was in his prime but couldn't be activated because he was reduced to spot-up shooter - so it's on lebron that he couldn't activate Bosh when Wade wasn't responding.. Bosh would've been a superstar under Kobe, not some spot-up shooter.. again, kobe/wade/bosh would be RIDICULOUS... 4/4 easily
And Wade wouldn't be lackluster in any series alongside Kobe - it just wouldn't happen - wade has too much respect for kobe to do that.. but the reality is that wade saw that lebron checked out, so he was like "[I]cool, cause me knees are sore brah.. let's plan our vacations before game 5[/I]"
But the reality is that Wade was just fine - he was lights out in the ECF, and therefore in much better shape heading into the Finals than say, 98' Pippen, who stuck it up in the ECF..
So Wade was fine, but he had bad Finals stats because that's what happens to secondary players when their team is getting blown away and their brand completely usurped - the secondary players can't stat-pad like the #1 option can.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
The problem when making this argument against Lebron in favor of Kobe is that the only counter is that Kobe wasn't good enough yet to win with Shaq. He failed as the favorite in 99. Was carried in the finals in 00. [B][COLOR="Blue"]Again, imagine Lebron winning a title playing like Kobe did in 00[/COLOR][/B]...I swear...I'd worry about you. Then he loses as the favorite in 03 and 04. Loses again as the favorite in 08 and gets upset in 11...then, as you said...really started declining. That just doesn't holde up very well when the same stuff is thrown back at him. It is just...3 titles while being the 2nd best player on his own team...that inflates his titles won for his circumstances.
[/quote]
People forget that Lebron averaged 16 on 39% through 3 games of the 2013 Finals - it's a testament to his cast that the Heat weren't down 3-0 at that point and still had a chance.. It was basically 2011 all over again (23 on 43% thru 6 games), but this time Jesus saved him and allowed him 2nd life..
Regardless, Lebron was a net negative for the series - the Heat lost with him on the floor - so I think Lebron's 2013 Finals in his uber-prime is equal to Kobe's 2000 performance when he wasn't in his prime.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
I will say this again and it needs to be dealt with. Kobe in the 00 finals was actually not even as good as Lebron in 11...and he got a title out of it. Ask me again why I don't like counting up titles to compare great players...LOL
[/quote]
People forget that Lebron averaged 16 on 39% through 3 games of the 2013 Finals - it's a testament to his cast that the Heat weren't down 3-0 at that point and still had a chance.. It was basically 2011 all over again (23 on 43% thru 6 games), but this time Jesus saved him and allowed him 2nd life.. Regardless, Lebron was a net negative for the series - the Heat lost with him on the floor - so I think Lebron's 2013 Finals in his uber-prime is equal to Kobe's 2000 performance when he wasn't in his prime.
Ultimately, Lebron has as many bad performances as Kobe.. And he was outscored in 4-5 different series by a teammate, while Kobe never was.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
6. 2011? Yes. Other years? No, he's not. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]The notion that Kobe is getting a title off the Durant Warriors tells me everything I need to know here[/COLOR][/B]...just an absurd take. I might as well just say I think Lebron wins 6 titles in his first 8 years with Shaq. Honestly probably a better chance of that happening than Kobe, in year 14 of his career...beating those Warriors.
[/QUOTE]
Harden almost beat them, so Kobe would destroy them.. He wouldn't even need Kyrie and Love - just give him and injured cp3 and that would be enough.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
5. Kobe won with some of the most stacked teams relative to competition in NBA history. To use the "help" argument here against Lebron is pretty bad even for you. No doubt Lebron has played on a bunch of loaded teams since 2010, but Kobe over the course of his career did as well.
[/quote]
^^^ that's a lie - pau and role players isn't a stacked team.. you're lying.
Kobe won with a Bosh at 2nd option, while Lebron needed Bosh at 3rd option - Kobe won with less... it's not complicated.. just imagine if he had Wade too.... :facepalm … my goodness - seriously, kobe/wade/bosh - they'd never lose... 70-win champions for sure... kobe never played with talent like that.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
2. Again, I disagree about 2010 and 2016. But, [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]when it comes to 16...what does it matter? Lebron won and was great.[/COLOR][/B]
[/QUOTE]
It matters because Lebron won as a perceived lucky underdog in 2016
but if he won 70 games in 2016 and won as the favorite, he would've entered 2017 as a 70-win champion and the ultimate juggernaut favorite - it wouldn't matter what KD did - that's how kobe would've won and he'd enter 2017 as a huge favorite regardless of KD...
and again, Kobe/Kyrie/Love would NOT be an underdog to KD/Curry/Klay and would've had good odds to win in 2017.. Otoh, Lebron's 53-win team was perceived as overmatched, despite having enough talent to win (many guys won with [I]real[/I] talent deficits, i.e. dirk in 2011 and many more)
..
[QUOTE=warriorfan][url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DiJZjmrUy68[/url]
He was injured and didn
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Nice edit you ****ing clown.
No, the point is that it isn't fair to absolve Kobe of his first 3 to 4 years and then act like Lebron should have been beating a team in the 07 finals that Kobe couldn't beat at a similar stage of his career with Shaq.[/QUOTE]
20 year old LeBron would have done worse than Kobe if you swapped places with him against that team. You are a low iq clown if you think otherwise.
1. I assume you mean Spo is the next Phil Jackson. I love Spo, so I agree that he had a very good coach in Spo. I disagree that Lebron wasn't coachable, but even if I did...I don't know how that impacted Spo being a great coach.
2. Most people aren't aware of how big of favorites the Spurs really should have been in 14. We will just have to avoid this as we couldn't be further apart. My guess is that you assume Wade/Bosh were way better than they actually were. The Spurs won 62 games, had the best SRS, and a more balanced team than the Heat.
3. Competition matters. But, Bosh missed serious time in 12 and hardly was anything approaching Pau standards in the playoffs when they won. In addition, both Wade/Bosh were severely diminished in reality vs how you are treating them in the 13 playoffs as well.
Nah, it wasn't because of Lebron ball. They were battling injuries throughout that run from the 12 playoffs on.
Again, of course there is going to be some reduction when you have 3 guys like that...you can't optimally have 3 players like that producing...sacrifice is necessary and Bosh felt most of it most of the time. He was solid defensively though and deserves credit for that.
Also, you can't just ignore that Kobe got 3 titles with Shaq. You seem to only want to talk about Kobe winning with Pau, but that isn't what happened to begin with. None of the other elite players in 09 or 10 had great help. When Dirk got it the following year...he swept the same team out of the 2nd round in the playoffs. I'm not even discounting the titles...I'm just saying you have to factor in the competition. It just wasn't the same as playing some of the teams Lebron has in the finals.
4. Yes, Lebron's 13 finals tend to get over-rated. You'll find posts of me saying the exact same thing. Again though...Kobe got carried at times to titles. All I ask for is consistency...
5. That Rockets team is way better than you are giving them credit for. Kobe in place of Harden would have had a far better chance to win than he would have had in place of Lebron. But we aren't talking about replacing Harden...we are talking about replacing Lebron.
6. Meh...this is a weak argument. Demanding that Lebron win 70 games in the regular season so he's not viewed as a dog is the height of the one-sided nature I'm attacking. How about Kobe winning 75 games with Shaq...why the **** didn't that happen?
[QUOTE=warriorfan]20 year old LeBron would have done worse than Kobe if you swapped places with him against that team. You are a low iq clown if you think otherwise.[/QUOTE]
I disagree, but that wasn't my point...as you know...to begin with.
So, I'll let you respond, but I'm going to try to sum up where we are.
You have agreed that Kobe's defense and longevity are not what you initially thought overall.
I have agreed that Kobe was more skilled and that in certain instances would have won in place of Lebron (2011)...
It seems that the real issue comes down to how we value the help/competition of each player when it comes to their team success.
In addition, it seems like you want no impact stats to be used...while I'd want to quantify some of this.
So, the question for you essentially is...given that you've agreed about the longevity...was Kobe's peak so much demonstrably higher than Lebron's that it negates Lebron having superior longevity/durability.
I hope you can see why this isn't a real issue for me. Lebron was better based on the best objective measures we have, he was more durable and has better longevity, and I think at his peak he was a better player.
That is why it is open and shut for me.
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/RCTM7q4/Capture1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/8mY3F2m/Capture.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=DMAVS41][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/RCTM7q4/Capture1.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I remember OP saying that Luka could "shoot the lights out" sometime within the last 10 days, even though Luka is only like a 33% 3 point shooter. Yet now he says Luka can't shoot midrange shots.
Strange.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/RCTM7q4/Capture1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/8mY3F2m/Capture.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I know you want to ignore all objective measures, but we all have our biases and preferences...
In this case, you have a clear bias you have admitted to because of Kobe's play mirroring Jordan.
The problem is though, he wasn't Jordan.
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/qCTdqG8/JJ.jpg[/IMG]
Is it really a shock that Jordan's graph looks like that? Not to me, not to you. Same methodology.
I'm just saying...stuff like this would give me pause if I was on your side of the debate.
[QUOTE=3ball]Why did he need goat PG's to even have a GOOD team, let alone a great team?
how can he be better than Magic, MJ, Bird and others when he needed so much more help, to even have a GOOD team, let alone great team?
Magic had 1 seeds without Kareem... MJ had championship teams with zero bigs worth anything.. Rookie Bird turned a lottery team into 60-win juggernaut.. Kobe won with Bosh as his sidekick (i mean pau)
how can he be better than these guys if he needed far more help and otherwise lost his ass in what many call a weak era (70's)?..
He was essentially the biggest stat-padder of all-time in the 70's - his sky-hook game was suboptimal and couldn't win shit - just like AD - until he landed alongside a goat PG - just like AD
But who cares about the facts right?.. Let's go with the groupthink that infact makes no sense.. :applause:.. :facepalm:[/QUOTE]
Kareem won 56 game
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
1. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]I assume you mean Spo is the next Phil Jackson[/COLOR][/B]. I love Spo, so I agree that he had a very good coach in Spo. I disagree that Lebron wasn't coachable, but even if I did...I don't know how that impacted Spo being a great coach.
[/quote]
No, Blatt was the next Phil that Lebron didn't allow
Blatt wanted to install an Princeton type offense with a lot of off-ball movement - Lebron knew he didn't have the skill to excel in that offense, so he fired him.
But again, Lebron has rejected coaching from every coach he's ever had - there's documented proof (provided earlier with those links to each coach) that he shut down every coach and had them run lebron-ball.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
2. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Most people aren't aware of how big of favorites the Spurs really should have been in 14[/COLOR][/B].
[/quote]
Why should they have been favored by more? Were they stacked with talent more than the Heat?.. The Heat had 4 HOF and a much younger core (36/37/32 for duncan/ginobili/parker versus 29/29/32 for lebron/bosh/wade)
So the Spurs didn't have more talent.. they won via teamwork, which is all on lebron and lebron-ball.
heck, the 14' Spurs were taken 7 games by the 8-seeded Mavs.. So how are you making excuses for the Heat?.. you're ignoring the facts
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
2. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Most people aren't aware of how big of favorites the Spurs really should have been in 14[/COLOR][/B].
[/quote]
Remember when the 98' Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and destroyed Duncan/Popovich's Spurs on the way to the Finals?
They were playing WAY better than the Bulls, yet no one was making excuses for the Bulls - MJ just went out there and carried his injured, weary team to the championship.
Otoh, you're making excuses for a 4 HOF team that had a much younger core
the old ass spurs simply gave the heat a basketball lesson on ball movement - that lesson couldn't be given to kobe, who was skilled enough to excel in some of the best systems ever.. again, there's no excuse for lebron losing to the spurs, who had the exact same team as the previous year when the heat were favored and won
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
Again, of course there is going to be some reduction when you have 3 guys like that...you can't optimally have 3 players like that producing...[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]sacrifice is necessary and Bosh felt most of it most of the time[/COLOR][/B]. He was solid defensively though and deserves credit for that.
[/quote]
Nonsense.. Klay averaged 20 ppg on the Warriors as the 3rd option.. Bosh could've done that too but he didn't fit with Lebron or Lebron-ball.. But he would've fit with Kobe and averaged 20 ppg like Klay did.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
We will just have to avoid this as we couldn't be further apart. My guess is that [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]you assume Wade/Bosh were way better than they actually were[/COLOR][/B]. The Spurs won 62 games, had the best SRS, and a more balanced team than the Heat.
[/quote]
Bosh was 29 years old and in his prime - he was still the 25 ppg scorer that he was in Toronto, but was shut down by lebron-ball..
how am I wrong - the guy was still 29 years old - you're just being results-oriented and saying "well, he sucked next to lebron so he sucked period".... no, lebron-ball shut him down - he was still the 25 ppg guy that he was in Toronto and could've averaged 20 ppg like other 3rd options have done.
but again, lebron couldn't call on bosh because he'd reduced him to spot-up shooter.. so it's all on lebron and his suboptimal style.. if bosh was the player he was supposed to be alongside lebron, that alone would've made the heat juggernauts and no opponent would have a chance
And btw, wade averaged 20/5/5 on 55% in the ECF - that isn't enough help heading into the Finals?.. those are basically prime pippen numbers with better efficiency.. So Wade was fine, but he gave up in the Finals because he saw Lebron give up - they were cool with it and mailed it in.. Wade wouldn't have done that with Kobe.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
2. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Most people aren't aware of how big of favorites the Spurs really should have been in 14[/COLOR][/B].
[/quote]
the spurs were old as dirt and didn't have more talent.. So Lebron can't beat the best SRS team with a 2 seed/b2b champion/4 HOF team, when guys like MJ did it with a 6 seed full of rookies?
if lebron is so great, he's supposed to make up small differences, like kobe was expected to do in 2008 against the Celtics, and like he infact did in 2010
listen to Isiah Thomas say that his pistons had the far better cast, but MJ was the difference (Isiah speaks after Magic):
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s[/url]
CONTINUED...…
.
.
CONTINUED....
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
3. Competition matters. But, Bosh missed serious time in 12 and hardly was anything approaching Pau standards in the playoffs when they won. In addition, both Wade/Bosh were severely diminished in reality vs how you are treating them in the 13 playoffs as well.
[/quote]
Lebron has a cakewalk through the East - he would've won without Bosh or Wade..
Only in the Finals did he need Wade, and Wade showed up in those 13' Finals, which is why they still had a chance after 3 games (they were down 2-1, not 3-0), despite Lebron's anemic 16 on 39%.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
[B][COLOR="DarkRed"].I'm just saying you have to factor in the competition[/COLOR][/B]. It just wasn't the same as playing some of the teams Lebron has in the finals.
[/quote]
It isn't fair to compare teams in the recent 3-star vs. 3-star format to teams in kobe's era where it was 2-star vs. 2 star..
Ultimately Lebron had his own 3-star super-teams and the only actual talent deficit he ever overcame in his whole career was the 07' ECF
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
[B]None of the elite players in 2009 or 2010 had great help[/B]
[/QUOTE]
you've been debunked on this already
Kobe beat the Spurs in 2008 and they were actually a 3-star team.. Kobe beat them with his 2-star team, so that alone is a bigger talent deficit than lebron ever overcame.
then he beat KG in 2010 and his superior big 4 cast.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
[B][COLOR="DarkRed"].I'm just saying you have to factor in the competition[/COLOR][/B]. It just wasn't the same as playing some of the teams Lebron has in the finals.
[/quote]
Why do Lebron fans complain about his "comp" when he had his own super-teams? Lebron's Heat were the most talented team in the league - so don't complain about the spurs...
And Lebron's Cavs were originally favored over the Warriors in 15', so they were considered better on paper.. kyrie > klay, while love is obviously > dray...
so it's on lebron for not realizing synergies with these guys and having a juggernaut that was better than curry's lesser cast..
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
[B][COLOR="DarkRed"].I'm just saying you have to factor in the competition[/COLOR][/B]. It just wasn't the same as playing some of the teams Lebron has in the finals.
[/quote]
Lebron only has an excuse once KD arrived.. So we can give him a pass for 07 and 18'... But Harden almost won with cp3, so kobe wins easily with kyrie and love in 17', who are both better than old cp3..
the KD warriors weren't unstoppable; Lebron-ball just made them look that way.. :confusedshrug: … they looked quite human against harden or the 8-seed clippers
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
5. That Rockets team is way better than you are giving them credit for. Kobe in place of Harden would have had a far better chance to win than he would have had in place of Lebron. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]But we aren't talking about replacing Harden...we are talking about replacing Lebron.[/COLOR][/B]
[/quote]
harden nearly won with cp3, so kobe wins easily in 17' with kyrie and love, both of which are better than old cp3
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
6. Meh...this is a weak argument. Demanding that Lebron win 70 games in the regular season so he's not viewed as a dog is the height of the one-sided nature I'm attacking. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]How about Kobe winning 75 games with Shaq[/COLOR][/B]...why the **** didn't that happen?
[/QUOTE]
if there was another team at the time that was winning 70 games with less talent than Shaq's Lakers and making the Lakers underdogs, then I would knock Shaq for not winning 70 games.. but the lakers were the dominant favorite like they were supposed to be - they dominated their comp, which included the spurs, whereas lebron couldn't even come CLOSE to the win totals of guys that had weaker casts (curry, kawhi)
there's no excuse for lebron failing to win 60 games, let alone 70.. ur just making excuses for him.. he wasn't overmatched in 2016 and had the better team on paper - that's why they were originally favored in 2015 - the only reason they became underdogs is because they looked so shitty in the regular season, while the warriors were winning 70.. and they looked shitty because lebron-ball doesn't result in great teams.
.
3ball accidentally proping up lebron in his failed attempt tO put distance between MJ and Kareem :facepalm
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
Kareem won 56 game’s on a literal expansion team....and they had the best record in the nba the year the Blazers won the title. We calling out Kareem for losing in the wcf with a one seed but ignoring that in the first year without Kareem the Lakers lost in 5 to Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers in the second round?
Much as you hate on stars teammates you should look into the game’s his guards had be the contenders in the late 70s. Two common themes of big Lakers games....
[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PastFarKillerwhale-size_restricted.gif[/IMG]
Kareem getting triple teamed and nobody taking advantage....
And back, to back, to back turnovers:
[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AngelicDismalAllosaurus-size_restricted.gif[/IMG]
Go look at what Lionel Hollins did to the Laker guards. One game he had 8 steals by himself and Rick Barry interviews him after and talks about how their press was [B]less[/B] effective than it had been in other game’s that series.
There is nobody who saw those game blames Kareem. But you aren’t here to be fair anyway.
[/QUOTE]
I never said Kareem wasn't good... I have him ranked about 7 or 8
that's pretty good
but he's bird-fed - he needs a great perimeter player to take attention away and get him the ball
ultimately the bird-feeders > the bird-fed.. they control the game more and feed the bird-fed guys like kareem, while also having better records [I]without[/I] the bird-fed, then vice versa
since the bird-feeders > the bird fed and have better records on their own, they're superior to kareem and bump kareem down to about #7 all-time (below the tier 1 versatile assassins, aka mj/bird/kobe; below the physical force bigs, aka wilt/shaq; and below the bird-feeders, aka magic... Duncan is debateable and kareem is still ahead of the team-hoppers/super-team seekers, aka KD/Lebron)..
^^^ so that puts kareem at about 7 all-time
[QUOTE=3ball]I never said Kareem wasn't good... I have him ranked about 7 or 8
that's pretty good
but he's bird-fed - he needs a great perimeter player to take attention away and get him the ball
ultimately the bird-feeders > the bird-fed.. they control the game more and feed the bird-fed guys like kareem, while also having better records [I]without[/I] the bird-fed, then vice versa
since the bird-feeders > the bird fed and have better records on their own, they're superior to kareem and bump kareem down to about #7 all-time (below the tier 1 versatile assassins, aka mj/bird/kobe; below the physical force bigs, aka wilt/shaq; and below the bird-feeders, aka magic... Duncan is debateable and kareem is still ahead of the team-hoppers/super-team seekers, aka KD/Lebron)..
^^^ so that puts kareem at about 7 all-time[/QUOTE]
:lol
This guy really is a secret Kobe lover
He has Kobe #2 all time :lol
He has Bird ranked as a "elite 2 way assassin" :lol
He has Kareem 7th or 8th :lol
How are you not banned? Real GM had it right.
[QUOTE=3ball]the KD warriors weren't unstoppable; Lebron-ball just made them look that way.. :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=3ball]Why should they have been favored by more? Were they stacked with talent more than the Heat?.. The Heat had 4 HOF and a much younger core (36/37/32 for duncan/ginobili/parker versus 29/29/32 for lebron/bosh/wade)
So the Spurs didn't have more talent.. they won via teamwork, which is all on lebron and lebron-ball.
heck, the 14' Spurs were taken 7 games by the 8-seeded Mavs.. So how are you making excuses for the Heat?.. you're ignoring the facts[/QUOTE]
:applause:
[QUOTE=3ball]Remember when the 98' Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and destroyed Duncan/Popovich's Spurs on the way to the Finals?
They were playing WAY better than the Bulls, yet no one was making excuses for the Bulls - MJ just went out there and carried his injured, weary team to the championship.[/QUOTE]
These guys don't know how to determine how good [I][U]teams[/U][/I] are. They just look at the roster and count the number of all stars and such. The 98 Jazz destroy that premise. They beat the 4 all-star Lakers, Olajuwon/Drexler/Barkley Rockets and the Robinson/Duncan Spurs that would eventually win 2 titles in the next 5 years. Most of these guys are probably 16 and don't know what they're talking about.
[Quote=3ball] 1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kobe
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Kareem
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem[/quote]
5 months later... :lol
[QUOTE=3ball]
1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Kobe
4) Magic
5) Wilt
6) Shaq
7) Kareem
8) Duncan (seriously considering Duncan over Kareem)
9) Russell
10) Oscar
11) Lebron
12) Dr. J
13) Durant
[/QUOTE]
Wilt drops from 2 to 5
Bird goes from 4 to 2
Hakeem goes from 10 to 15
In 5 months...For no reason :lol
[QUOTE=3ball]
the KD warriors weren't unstoppable; Lebron-ball just made them look that way.. :confusedshrug: … they looked quite human against harden or the 8-seed clippers
.[/QUOTE]
The "mighty" Pistons got taken to an elimination game in the first round.
[QUOTE=bigkingsfan]The "mighty" Pistons got taken to an elimination game in the first round.[/QUOTE]
:eek:
MJ ball just made the Pistons look unbeatable for losing to them 3 years in a row :eek:
[QUOTE=SpaceJam2]5 months later... :lol
Wilt drops from 2 to 5
Bird goes from 4 to 2
Hakeem goes from 10 to 15
In 5 months...For no reason :lol[/QUOTE]
5 months is along time. While you are jacking off in your moms basement posting nonsense 60+ times a day 3ball is critically thinking, calculating, innovating new basketball analysis. He has demonstrated basketball understanding far far far beyond your comprehension. Maybe you should stick to your low iq threads while copy pasting DPBM and other worthless statistics you got off basketball reference :lol
[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/JhVBJdHk/280-F87-C4-99-C8-45-C8-AE9-F-A5-C1-F419-BB78.jpg[/IMG]
When we hit a point that we denigrate even goat tier scorers for playing team ball we might as well end basketball discussion. The very idea that multiple players getting touches and moving the ball around, off ball positioning, posting up, reposting, drawing doubles and finding cutters makes you inferior because you didn
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]When we hit a point that we denigrate even goat tier scorers for playing team ball we might as well end basketball discussion. The very idea that multiple players getting touches and moving the ball around, off ball positioning, posting up, reposting, drawing doubles and finding cutters makes you inferior because you didn’t bring the ball up and pound the air out of it....while also making hundreds of topics opposing the ball dominant teammate diminishing guys?
It makes it pretty clear you’re just gonna find reason to hate on whoever you target at the moment with little or no concern for consistency.
Should be the 19 year old guys who don’t remember what basketball was for 70 years calling out guys for playing as one of 5 not supposed fans of “real” ball. Getting good position off the ball to catch a pass and score quickly....OR being able to score one on one at an all time elite level. An obsessed fan of Michael Jordan hating on those qualities is just amazing.
Merely being given the ball does not make you birdfed. Kareem wasn’t some stationary sky hook machine needing his handlers to put him in position. He did not play the way he appears in the same 5 sky hook highlights espn shows. He was mobile, skilled, and very very apt to create his own shots in the post or facing up.....
[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BitesizedRawAyeaye-size_restricted.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/VictoriousNegligibleCobra-size_restricted.gif[/IMG]
Kareem was a “Give him the ball and get out of the way” scorer not some play finisher that has to be put in perfect position to drop in a layup.
The whole birdfed concept in fact is nothing but a modern fans way of hating on fundamentals and off ball play to glorify flashier play.
Kareem played the right way virtually all the time and required no more setting up than anyone else who didn’t bring the ball up the floor. Having a play run to get you the ball in your spot doesn’t make you birdfed. It makes you a basketball player.
And when you couple being incredible with your off the ball positioning after having been guarded every possible way and fronted and doubled for years with among the most polished one on one games ever?
Calling it “Birdfed” is downright disrespectful. It’s emblematic of everything wrong with not just modern bigs but modern players. This bullshit is why kids who could be the next Kareem or Duncan are working on step back threes instead of their footwork 16 feet and in. Some real millennial shit.[/QUOTE]
Defenses used to be tougher. There were more nuances involved.
But you were more free to be a basketball player before the 2010s.
Derozan is is pretty weak..but he has a fvcking point. Being nit-picked like this didn’t happen before. The term “birdfed” in basketball has existed for like 4 years.
Everyone knew Kareem was unstoppable and there weren’t conditions put on it.
I mean Wilt, perhaps the most narcissistic man who’s ever dominated the game knew when to ask for help with Kareem.
1. No, Blatt was not the next Phil Jackson and he wasn't fired because of Lebron. If anything, Lebron made him look way better than he was because very few players in history get the 15 Cavs in the position Lebron did. I agree he got screwed as a coach, but blaming that all on Lebron is unfair.
2. I've already addressed the 14 Spurs issue. I'm not saying it was impossible to win...I'm simply saying you aren't being fair to reality. Bosh/Wade was not the prime players they were after 11. This was a combination of age/health for them...and in Bosh's case...a better look at his real value. He got over-rated putting up regular season stats in Toronto. This isn't to say he wasn't really good...he absolutely was. But you are trying to make him into something he wasn't to fit your narrative.
With Bosh, he was out of the league less than 2 years later. He would play less than 100 more games in his career. He would never play a playoff game again.
To credit Lebron with having 3 other hall of famers...again, proves you aren't here to be fair. Ray Allen was 38 years old. He wasn't bad or anything, but he wasn't what you are saying he was.
3. More rampant contradictions. On one hand, you want to say the Jazz was way better than they get credit for because that was a real team...etc. But then, on the other hand, you downplay the Spurs who were built similar to the Jazz. You can't have it both ways.
4. Interesting, another inconsistency. You bring up the 14 Mavs taking the 14 Spurs to 7. Why aren't you bringing this up about the 08 Celtics getting taken to 7 twice...and then 6 in the ECF. Could it be that you aren't remotely fair and are totally biased? And, even worse, Kobe was actually favored in that series...whereas the Heat were slight underdogs in 14.
Do you see my problem with your tactics?
5. Again, why would I be surprised that MJ did something Lebron didn't or couldn't. You need to stop bringing him up with me. I already think he's the best player ever and you sound deranged when you do it as it has no relevance to this discussion.
6. Curry/Klay/Durant fits together better than Bosh/Lebron/Wade. I completely agree.
7. Again, you can lie and try to bend reality, but the Spurs were favored and were the best team all year. Factor in the diminished versions of the 3 HOF games you keep referencing...and you get the Spurs as the favorite with homecourt. The Spurs were about -130 to win...and honestly it should have been more.
In addition, Lebron played pretty well overall. If it was Jordan playing that and losing, you'd be blaming his teammates. 28/8/4 68% TS...I mean...I don't think those numbers exactly depict how good Lebron was as there was some weak defense by the Heat that is in part on Lebron, but this gets at my bigger point...winning/losing is not the best way to judge players because of circumstances matter.
8. Yes, the East was super easy and in this very thread, I've used that as an example of why we can't just blindly say "he made 8 finals in a row" without context. Can you stop repeating things I've already addressed or agreed with, please?
9. No, it isn't that simple. When Kobe won his 2 titles...he needed less because the competition was worse. That is just a fact. Even worse for your argument...none of the other teams actually had an elite player without another star. Who are these "2-star" teams? Dirk/Terry...Melo/Billups...Lebron/Mo...Dwight/Lewis...Old KG/Pierce...Wade/Marion...
No, the other star players did not have the same kind of help....and of course, let's ignore coaching and pretend Lamar Odom didn't exist as well...fantasy is fun.
10. No, it isn't debunked. Manu was hurt in the 08 series against the Spurs and I wouldn't call that a 3-star team anyway. But it was an impressive series by Kobe and the Lakers.
Unfortunately, they played an actual 3-star team in the finals and got destroyed as the favorite...again, a team that needed 7 games to get by the Hawks and the Cavs.
Now wait a minute, not only does this destroy your 2014 argument against the Spurs, but...did Lebron James...with a worse supporting cast...come closer to beating the Celtics than Kobe did?
How did that happen? How did Lebron get to a game 7 and droop 45 to almost beat them in Boston? The same competition...same year...interesting how you don't bring that up.
11. I'm not complaining...I'm simply explaining reality to you. Playing the Durant Warriors in the Finals is a lot different than playing the Pacers/Nets/Sixers/Magic/Celtics...and again, for half of those series, Kobe had it easier than Lebron ever did because of Shaq/Phil.
12. No, again, you aren't understanding how teams are built. Kobe would have had a much better chance in place of Harden. Those Rockets were designed to beat the Warriors. You shouldn't be on a basketball forum and not understand the specifics of matchups. In addition, Iggy was not right in that series and it does skew things a bit.
But, are you now arguing that Harden is better than Lebron? Because if you think Lebron had better help and Harden came closer to beating him...you kind of have to with the rigid way you think.
13. In 2015...Lebron was playing with a team that had never played together. New players and a new coach. Kyrie/Love had never even really won meaningful games before in their careers up to that point.
I know you won't care about reality, but Lebron also missed 13 games that season...and the Cavs went 3-10 without him. With him...they were 50-19.
In 2016 they won 57 games. Kyrie missed like 30 games. Again, do you care at all about reality? You expect them to do something only a couple teams ever did despite their 2nd best player missing nearly half the season?
They went 56-20 with Lebron...1-5 without him...
Prove you aren't a troll and concede this point like some of the others. Do you actually think something that happened just a few years ago is going to be easily lied about?
Just like the 08 Spurs series with Manu hurt...calling it a 3-star team...I know the league man...I don't forget obvious shit like that.
14. Do those career charts give you pause at all? The same methodology that ranks Jordan as pretty clearly the greatest peak player ever...also has Kobe's level considerably lower than Lebron's both in terms of peak and longevity.
Do you think there is any chance you aren't seeing things clearly here?