Lebron hasn't been all-defense in 7 years

[QUOTE=8Ball;14166352]Between 2009-2014 all of LeBron's teams were elite defensively. Lakers were monstrous defensively.

So Bron got shafted out of 2020 all D team.[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure bron waa all defense from 2009-14 and i agree who could of been all defense this year. Thats 1 year he got overlooked and its still questionable. Bron wasnt elite defensively all year. Sometimes he was engaged sometimes he wasn't. Yeah when engaged he's as good as anyone but its a regular season award. Bron didn't play consistent d until playoffs

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14166278]His teams definitely weren't stacked. Rod was 35 and like 3 years outside of his last all star year. He was still a great defender and rebounder but he only scored 6 points a game or so. I can only imagine how much bron stans would devalue rod if he was on brons team. Mj stans do the same though and both are idiots tbh. Towards the last chip both rod and pip were shells of themselves. Rod was no longer one of the best defenders in the league and pips back hampered his play on both ends. Mj carried that 1998 team which is something bron stans like to ignore.[/QUOTE]
Pippen lead the Bulls starters in rebounds, assists , steals and blocks in the 98 postseason

But let's act like MJ did all the work and carried a bunch of carcasses :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14166323]72-10
boiiii you are hurting off 73-9

:roll::roll::oldlol:[/QUOTE]

the '96 Bulls would beat that Warriors team

[QUOTE=LonelyOwl;14166366]Pippen lead the Bulls starters in rebounds, assists , steals and blocks in the 98 postseason

But let's act like MJ did all the work and carried a bunch of carcasses :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Look at the little help MJ had according to this real-time reporting:

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937[/URL]

How did Mike overcome this? :bowdown:

[QUOTE=72-10;14166299]LeBron is an overrated defender who didn't even deserve all of the All-Defensive nods that he got.[/QUOTE]
You ranked Kobe & West as better defenders than Duncan & Wilt, invalidating your opinion on the subject

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166374]Look at the little help MJ had according to this real-time reporting:

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937[/URL]

How did Mike overcome this? :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

People merely fake compliment pippen's hustle and glue guy/role player stuff because they couldn't compliment his offense.. it was a silent, intuitive agreement.. "oh yes, pippen, well what can you say.." and then they mention a bunch of hustle, glue guy stuff

Again, if "defense" was an argument, then AD could've scored like Pippen and the Lakers win, since AD is a better defender than pippen. But we all know the Lakers would lose in the 1st round if AD scored like Pippen.

Defense only enters the equation when a player is so bad that he prevents a top defense.. aka guys like Curry and Kyrie were on #1 defenses so they pass the test.. defense is truly a team effort, so the defense argument is a non-factor

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166360]Scoring was down for everybody as the pace slowed. Stockton and Hornacek put up 20 PPG combined in the same series MJ fans complain about Pippen/Kukoc scoring 31 PPG.

Pippen missed half the season and made all-NBA anyway. :lol That is something only elite players do (Kyrie couldn't do it when he was hurt in 16').

If Rodman didn't limit Malone, the Jazz would have won.[/QUOTE]

Well pip missed half the season because of the same back that kept him from being elite in the playoffs. Yeah he was obviously still great but it definitely wasn't one of his better years. Bulls had a pretty good record for those game pip missed too btw.

As far as rodman limiting rodman it was miniscule. Karl was still like 26/10 or something which was right around his normal numbers that year. I wouldn't argue that without rod they dont win but that can be said for anybody losing there 3rd best player.

[QUOTE]Well pip missed half the season because of the same back that kept him from being elite in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

He injured his foot in the final game of the ECF. That is what he had surgery for.

[QUOTE]Bulls had a pretty good record for those game pip missed too btw.[/QUOTE]

Yup, the 98' Bulls w/out Pippen=the 94' Bulls w/out MJ. MJ fans want to tout the former but not the latter. You can't pick and choose. :oldlol: If anything, it is harder to do it for a full season. In the short term players can step up, like Rodman did because he knew he had to do more.

[QUOTE]As far as rodman limiting rodman it was miniscule. Karl was still like 26/10 or something which was right around his normal numbers that year. [/QUOTE]

Check his efficiency. Malone put up good top line numbers but his efficiency declined a ton compared to his normal level, especially in 97'. He went from something like 60% TS to 49% in the finals.

Don't forget Kukoc. You all love Miller and Kukoc outplayed him in the ECF and Game 7. 4th option vs. a 1st.

Op completely bamboozled again lol

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166396]He injured his foot in the final game of the ECF. That is what he had surgery for.



Yup, the 98' Bulls w/out Pippen=the 94' Bulls w/out MJ. MJ fans want to tout the former but not the latter. You can't pick and choose. :oldlol: If anything, it is harder to do it for a full season. In the short term players can step up, like Rodman did because he knew he had to do more.



Check his efficiency. Malone put up good top line numbers but his efficiency declined a ton compared to his normal level, especially in 97'. He went from something like 60% TS to 49% in the finals.

Don't forget Kukoc. You all love Miller and Kukoc outplayed him in the ECF and Game 7. 4th option vs. a 1st.[/QUOTE]

Its widely known pips back was busted in 98. He surgery for it after the playoffs [url]https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1998-07-29-9807290345-story,amp.html[/url]

Cant compare seasons because as you say it wasnt a whole season for mj but what your saying dosnt make sense. Without pip the bull actually struggled out the gate. Once they figured it out it was smooth sailing as usual.

And karl malone wasnt way less efficient at all. He was 53% for the reg season and 50 in the finals. His average for the playoffs were usually below 50% so there wasn't much change at all really. Your just making shit up on that one.

MJ stans will tell us how great Kyrie Irving is for making 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons and then tell us Pippen was [I]not[/I] elite for being good enough to make all-NBA when missing half the season. :lol

Cut the crap. You have to play at an elite level to make all-NBA when you missed half the season. If Pippen played the full season he easily would have been all-NBA 2nd team based on his level of play, even if he declined from 97'. You know it.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166468]MJ stans will tell us how great Kyrie Irving is for making 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons and then tell us Pippen was [I]not[/I] elite for being good enough to make all-NBA when missing half the season. :lol

Cut the crap. You have to play at an elite level to make all-NBA when you missed half the season. If Pippen played the full season he easily would have been all-NBA 2nd team based on his level of play, even if he declined from 97'. You know it.

Pippen 97': 20/7/6 5.7 BPM (7th in the NBA)
Pippen 98': 19/5/6 5.0 BPM (8th in the NBA)[/QUOTE]

Its obviously relative dude. Pip was definitely still a great player. Use the word elite if you like but he definitely wasn't at his best come the 98 playoffs. Multiple people including pip has said as much. 16/6 on 41% isnt a superstar in any era.

He wasn't elite but made all-NBA in half a season (which implies he had to be a clear cut top 10 player--if you are top 15 and play half a season you won't make it). That doesn't make any sense--unless all those people got it wrong and MJ stans 22 years later are right.

Pippen's scoring average in 98' (19) was basically the same as MJ fan favorite Miller's, Ray Allen's, Payton, Tim Hardaway, KG, and Drexler. All of the were within 1 PPG, Kemp was a few ticks behind them. Hill scored only 2 PPG more.

The Bulls' pace was 12% slower than the average team today. That's 21.5 PPG if you adjust for average pace, not even factoring easier rules, etc. You make it sound like he was Ben Wallace.

Re playoffs, Pippen dominated defensively--even though no MJ fan will credit him for that. People can Google that or watch the games on YouTube. His scoring was inconsistent in the playoffs--that is where his decline was more evident. I can admit that. I'm just saying, and all-NBA voters agreed, he was playing at a clear cut top 10 level still. He just was not a top 5 caliber player like he had been in the previous seasons.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166568]He wasn't elite but made all-NBA in half a season (which implies he had to be a clear cut top 10 player--if you are top 15 and play half a season you won't make it). That doesn't make any sense--unless all those people got it wrong and MJ stans 22 years later are right.

Pippen's scoring average in 98' (19) was basically the same as MJ fan favorite Miller's, Ray Allen's, Payton, Tim Hardaway, KG, and Drexler. All of the were within 1 PPG, Kemp was a few ticks behind them. Hill scored only 2 PPG more.

The Bulls' pace was 12% slower than the average team today. That's 21.5 PPG if you adjust for average pace, not even factoring easier rules, etc. You make it sound like he was Ben Wallace.

Re playoffs, Pippen dominated defensively--even though no MJ fan will credit him for that. People can Google that or watch the games on YouTube. His scoring was inconsistent in the playoffs--that is where his decline was more evident. I can admit that. I'm just saying, and all-NBA voters agreed, he was playing at a clear cut top 10 level still. He just was not a top 5 caliber player like he had been in the previous seasons.[/QUOTE]

If AD scored like Pippen, the Lakers would lose in the 1st round, and AD is a better defender than pippen

So that proves the defense argument is false and pippen's anemic offense made him weak - he was an Iggy-level player, or maybe a lesser Paul George

the numbers speak for themselves.. only MJ routinely beat top teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166568]He wasn't elite but made all-NBA in half a season (which implies he had to be a clear cut top 10 player--if you are top 15 and play half a season you won't make it). That doesn't make any sense--unless all those people got it wrong and MJ stans 22 years later are right.

Pippen's scoring average in 98' (19) was basically the same as MJ fan favorite Miller's, Ray Allen's, Payton, Tim Hardaway, KG, and Drexler. All of the were within 1 PPG, Kemp was a few ticks behind them. Hill scored only 2 PPG more.

The Bulls' pace was 12% slower than the average team today. That's 21.5 PPG if you adjust for average pace, not even factoring easier rules, etc. You make it sound like he was Ben Wallace.

Re playoffs, Pippen dominated defensively--even though no MJ fan will credit him for that. People can Google that or watch the games on YouTube. His scoring was inconsistent in the playoffs--that is where his decline was more evident. I can admit that. I'm just saying, and all-NBA voters agreed, he was playing at a clear cut top 10 level still. He just was not a top 5 caliber player like he had been in the previous seasons.[/QUOTE]

I think you underestimate Phil's role in pips individual success. If mj needed pip then pip needed phil just as much. Pip never made an all star without phil. He couldn't even score 15 points without phil.

And pip was a great defender but his defense is severely overrated by bron stans. Its not like he had the impact of a drob or any great center. He didn't dominate defensively. He was defensively a huge part of tge bulls defense though but it was a collective effort. Again you would never say anyone was a superstar who scored 16/6/7 on mediocre efficiency. Even if they were a great defender. So why pip?

He is widely considered the GOAT perimeter defender. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166710]He is widely considered the GOAT perimeter defender. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't disagree with that but perimeter defenders dont impact the game defensively like centers do. This is also widely known. So yeah he's a great defender but his impact isnt enough to make up for his offensive struggles in some of his finals. Even a center who has more of a defensive impact wouldn't be considered a superstar with 16/7/6. Especially if he was on one if brons teams:facepalm

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166710]He is widely considered the GOAT perimeter defender. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

I can only imagine what bron stans would say about kawhi if he put up 16/7/6 on 42% shooting. They'd have a field day.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14166726]I can only imagine what bron stans would say about kawhi if he put up 16/7/6 on 42% shooting. They'd have a field day.[/QUOTE]

Hard to put up good scoring stats when your teammate is taking 25-30 shots per game

Jordan ball didn't allow his teammates to get going, and it's reflected in the stats

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14166726]I can only imagine what bron stans would say about kawhi if he put up 16/7/6 on 42% shooting. They'd have a field day.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14166732]Hard to put up good scoring stats when your teammate is taking 25-30 shots per game

Jordan ball didn't allow his teammates to get going, and it's reflected in the stats[/QUOTE]


line em up, shoot em down

2 ez for the bois


[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/hSi4jPFdeoEed62SBS/giphy.gif[/img]

Anyone can look up what people were saying at the time. Google "Pippen 1998 Finals MVP." SouBeachTalents did that and here is some of what he found. Do you trust these reporters, coaches, and players in real time or MJ stans with an obvious agenda 22 years later? :lol

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937[/URL]

These are the same people who defend Stockton scoring 9.7 PPG. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14166732]Hard to put up good scoring stats when your teammate is taking 25-30 shots per game

Jordan ball didn't allow his teammates to get going, and it's reflected in the stats[/QUOTE]

Pip literally scored 2 more points a game in his prime when mj left so thats bs.

And mj lead 3 of the best offenses ever. The triangle had way more on and off ball movement than offenses bron plays in. Wtf are talking about:facepalm

The Bulls' offense was top 10 w/out MJ but not w/out Pippen. Inconvenient truth. :pimp:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166742]Anyone can look up what people were saying at the time. Google "Pippen 1998 Finals MVP." SouBeachTalents did that and here is some of what he found. Do you trust these reporters, coaches, and players in real time or MJ stans with an obvious agenda 22 years later? :lol

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937[/URL]

These are the same people who defend Stockton scoring 9.7 PPG. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

And then theres this [url]https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/15/sports/the-nba-finals-pippen-s-pain-pushes-jordan-to-greatest-feat.html[/url]

Ah, so [I]now[/I] Pippen was injured? You guys pick and choose when to mention that he got hurt late in the series. [I]Never[/I] mention it when posting his stats, as if he was going to accumulate any stats injured that badly. :oldlol: He was putting up 20 PPG through the first four games and was the front-runner for FMVP when the Bulls were up 3-1.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14166764]And then theres this [url]https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/15/sports/the-nba-finals-pippen-s-pain-pushes-jordan-to-greatest-feat.html[/url][/QUOTE]

Pippen averaged 15 on 41% and was horrible

Even thru 4 games he was only getting Wade's 13' Finals stats... If pippen was scoring like AD or 11/12 Wade, the series would've been a sweep or 5 games...

Only pippen's poor play made it go 6.. without MJ's heroics, pippen's poor play would've caused ANOTHER loss or close series, just like the 98' ECF, 97' Finals, 96' Finals, 93' Finals, 92' ECSF, 90' ECF, and 89' ECF

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166762]The Bulls' offense was top 10 w/out MJ but not w/out Pippen. Inconvenient truth. :pimp:[/QUOTE]

Mj was always an all star w/out Pippen but Pippen wasnt always an all star w/o jordan. And he was was never an all star without phil.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14166770]Mj was always an all star w/out Pippen Mj was always an all star w/out Pippen but Pippen wasnt always an all star w/o jordan.[/QUOTE]

Pippen was always a winner w/out Jordan; Jordan was always a loser w/out Pippen.

Jordan was voted in in DC--he wasn't a legit all-star. The same way Grant Hill got voted in or Kobe while being a bench player/4th option.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166771]Jordan was voted in in DC--he wasn't a legit all-star. The same way Grant Hill got voted in around the same time.[/QUOTE]

03' Jordan... 19.3 PER
04' Lebron... 18.3 PER

[U]GOAT Candidates Without their Best Teammate[/U]

Wilt w/out West: champ
KAJ w/out Magic: champ
Russell w/out Havlicek: champ
LeBron w/out Wade: champ
Jordan w/out Pippen: sold a lot of sneakers

Get over it. Jordan quit instead of defending the MVP and chip w/out Pippen. Name another player who retired because another guy left.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166768]Ah, so [I]now[/I] Pippen was injured? You guys pick and choose when to mention that he got hurt late in the series. [I]Never[/I] mention it when posting his stats, as if he was going to accumulate any stats injured that badly. :oldlol: He was putting up 20 PPG through the first four games and was the front-runner for FMVP when the Bulls were up 3-1.[/QUOTE]

Your talking so much shit.

Game 1-mj 33 pts +1/ pip 21 pts -1
Game 2 mj 37 pts +16 / pip 21 pts +1
Game 3 mj 24 pts +24/ pip 10 pts + 14
Game 4 mj 34 pts +0/ pip 28 pts +2

Front runner is a stretch and yes pip was hurt and it led to mj having to carry the team more as i already mentioned.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166786][U]GOAT Candidates Without their Best Teammate[/U]

Wilt w/out West: champ
KAJ w/out Magic: champ
Russell w/out Havlicek: champ
LeBron w/out Wade: champ
Jordan w/out Pippen: sold a lot of sneakers

Get over it. Jordan quit instead of defending the MVP and chip w/out Pippen. Name another player who retired because another guy left.[/QUOTE]

Pippen without phil not even an all star. Couldn't even score 15 pts

Like I said, anyone can Google "Pippen 1998 Finals MVP" and see for themselves.

[QUOTE][B]It was a defensive masterpiece by the Bulls, one unmatched in NBA history[/B], not to mention Finals history. The Jazz's 54 points might have been just enough to beat the Green Bay Packers. This wasn't a basketball game, it was Kerry Wood blowing away the Houston Astros. It was Bob Gibson in the World Series.[B] It was one man taking out a team.[/B]

Oh, sure, this was a team effort by the Bulls. Ron Harper was wonderful in steering Stockton toward the baseline to limit the options on the Jazz's famed pick-and-roll. So was Michael Jordan, who took just 14 shots but still had 24 points to lead the Bulls. But[B] it was mostly Pippen, who has thwarted the Jazz like no other player, never mind a whole team[/B]. And his 10 points, four rebounds and four assists were only part of the story.

[B]After the Bulls defeated the Jazz in the Finals last season, Stockton's summary was that the Jazz had no answer for Pippen. Utah is still failing that test.[/B] "The luxury for us is to have a defender like Scottie who can cover more than one situation at a time," coach Phil Jackson said.
[B][SIZE=3]
If the Bulls win these Finals, Pippen should be the Most Valuable Player.[/SIZE][/B] "There have been terrific defenders in the history of the Finals," Jackson said. "You can go back to (Michael) Cooper for the Lakers, and Bobby Jones with the 76ers and other players who have played outstanding defense. The majority of those players are great one-on-one players. Scottie is able to be a one-man wrecking crew"[/QUOTE]

The story was defensive domination, which wrecked the #1 Utah offense. The Bulls' offense sucked (88 PPG), it just didn't matter when Utah was scoring 80.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166803]Like I said, anyone can Google "Pippen 1998 Finals MVP" and see for themselves. This is no secret to anyone who watched the series.



The story was defensive domination, which wrecked the #1 Utah offense. The Bulls' offense sucked (88 PPG), it just didn't matter when Utah was scoring 80.[/QUOTE]

Thats someones opinion. I can find 10 articles that would say the same shit bout mj. And you act like mj wasn't a part of that defense and rod fir that matter. They were sll great defenders. Only one was a great scorer.

That's why wanted to teamup with Davis :oldlol: AD finished second in DPOY voting and made First Team All-Def. Davis has pure dominion over this Laker team when you factor in the scoring.

[QUOTE=MadDog;14166816]That's why he wanted to teamup with Davis, the Laker anchor on defense. AD finished second in DPOY voting and made First Team All-Def. Pure dominion over this Laker team when you factor in the scoring.[/QUOTE]

But if he scores like Pippen the Lakers lose in the 1st round

Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, and 19 on 42% in 6 Finals... 16 on 40% in 2 Finals and 5 ECF

[QUOTE=3ball;14166819]But if he scores like Pippen the Lakers lose in th 1st round

Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, and 19 on 42% in 6 Finals... 16 on 40% in 2 Finals and 5 ECF[/QUOTE]

Why would AD score like Pippen? AD is a better player/scorer by far.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166803]Like I said, anyone can Google "Pippen 1998 Finals MVP" and see for themselves.



The story was defensive domination, which wrecked the #1 Utah offense. The Bulls' offense sucked (88 PPG), it just didn't matter when Utah was scoring 80.[/QUOTE]

No, it's just platitudes and hyperbole, which happens when the story is always about Jordan.. reporters back then called it "jordan fatigue".. so they throw pippen a bone once in a while... But everyone saw MJ dominate the scoring in a 1-man fashion and distribution and completely carry the load in the 4th, plus Pippen usually finished series poorly, so no one actually thought pippen was indispensable, not even the GM

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14166807]Thats someones opinion. I can find 10 articles that would say the same shit bout mj. And you act like mj wasn't a part of that defense and rod fir that matter. They were sll great defenders. Only one was a great scorer.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, people are free to Google and see what people were saying before Pippen got hurt. Just check the timestamp. Pippen got hurt in Game 5 and that shifted it to MJ but that doesn't negate dominance when Chicago built a 3-1 led.

The story was Pippen playing a "roving linebacker" role to wreck the Jazz offense (as all those people who watched it live said in those quotes). The Jazz couldn't execute their offense, Stockton, who MJ stans rave about, watched this all go down and had no counter move.

You were dismissing Rodman as a defender earlier. :confusedshrug: