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[QUOTE=Bawkish;14476831]I remember one time in Open Court when they're arguing if there's any player that was "Lebron" before Lebron. 1st thing came up was Grant Hill, then Chuck suggest what about Pippen, and oh boy you could see the reactions of Chauncey, CWebb and especially Zeke. Zeke about to have a breakdown on that particular topic[/QUOTE]
You always think of him lmao.
[QUOTE=Axe;14476834]You always think of him lmao.[/QUOTE]
like stalking me now?
[QUOTE=dankok8;14476810]Long time no see Micku! How've you been bud? :D
This is what I literally said in the post after the one you quoted! Pippen could definitely win as the best player on an ensemble squad like the 2004 Pistons. However as you said, those teams are tough to construct. That's why there haven't been too many championship teams like that.[/QUOTE]
Wassssup man!! I've been busy, but this Pippen thing is pretty crazy lol. I had to come over here to see what ppl were saying. I know the trolls were gonn'a go rampage and hide the actual good b-ball discussions. But I couldn't help myself.
It is good to see y'all here tho!
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14476724]Give the 94 Bulls an Allen Houston level SG, and he'd have a great chance at winning a championship as the best player. Replace Tayshaun Prince with prime Pippen on that 2004 team. Theh probably win 2-3 championships and are considered an all-time great team. And Pippen would be the clear cut best player.
But what I don't get is, why would you take players like Robinson and Barkley over Pippen? I mean, we saw what those two could do with a combined 20+ years leading a team to a title and they failed. What's the difference?[/QUOTE]
Better numbers. Better impact. They are more proven as the number 1 guy, tho not of Pippen's didn't get enough seasons to prove it. Although they didn't win a chip either as the number 1 and Barkley didn't win any at all. It indicates that Pippen as the number 1 guy it would be just as or more difficult...at least to me. However it depends on the team construction. It's not impossible. The Bulls were an amazing team, even without MJ. It wasn't always the case tho.
Give Pippen a solid team at his very peak, then I think they could be a championship contender for sure. Would they win it? I dunno about that. Hard to say. But the same thing with the other stars with better numbers too. Could they get to the finals? It's possible. Like the Bulls nearly beat the Knicks in 94. Should've beat the Knicks. But even if they beat the Knicks, would they beat the Pacers? While you may say the Bulls beat'em in the RS 3-1, the Knicks swept the pacers too. And they still went seven games.
And the Bulls had a losing record 1-3 against the knicks in 94, but could've beaten them.
So who knows. But given that Ewing went to the finals, and took the Bulls when they had MJ, Pippen and Grant to the brick, a peak Ewing would've been a easier piece to build around as well.
But do you see what I'm doing? It's a dance that could go back and forward with a bunch of players. It just all depends on the team. A bunch of what ifs too and a bit of luck.
Without MJ, Pippen would've been similar as those guys. With Barkley in his case, he ran into the Bulls where MJ averaged 41 ppg. Like who does that? Nobody in the history of the league ever did that before or since. Granted, they never got back there, but it happens in sports. That was their peak. David Robinson ran into Hakeem at his peak, but David Robinson always underperforms in the playoffs. So you got that argument.
It is unknown whatever Pippen could've done any better as the guy if he had to lead the rest of his career. But if we were to assume if Pippen continued to play like he did in 94 continuously, it would be something to see. I still don't know and I personally doubt he would've won. But without MJ, it's pretty much anybody's game.
[QUOTE=Bawkish;14476831]I remember one time in Open Court when they're arguing if there's any player that was "Lebron" before Lebron. 1st thing came up was Grant Hill, then Chuck suggest what about Pippen, and oh boy you could see the reactions of Chauncey, CWebb and especially Zeke. Zeke about to have a breakdown on that particular topic[/QUOTE]
Hahaha yeah.
Nobody respects Pippen like a superstar like that. At least his peers it seems. lol
Like Zeke don't believe Pippen was on his lvl. Shaq of course. I think CWebb don't think so either. Reggie Miller. I think the whole crew didn't think Pippen was on Grant Hill's lvl. Ernie even made a joke about it.
But especially Zeke. He mentioned that he could understand if MJ didn't want him on the dream team. But Pippen had no right to talk. lol!
It would appear only the Bulls teammates respect Pippen more so than the players outside of the team. And John Sally lol. I think he said he thinks Pippen is better than MJ, then the interviewer laughed and was like, "Naw, you don't believe that. That's the detriot in you coming out," and he laughed said there is some truth to that I think.
They all acknowledge that Pippen is a good player tho. But they don't think he is that guy tho. Like he don't get the respect similar to the other sidekicks along with the stars. Like Mchale/Bird, Magic/Kareem, Wade/LeBron, Curry/KD, and especially Shaq/Kobe.
I personally think Ewing is pretty underrated and Joe Dumars. Dwight Howard is underrated too given the top 75 and he is not on it.
Pippen is overrated or underrated depending who you talk to. But I think his peers don't think he is that dude. Current gen don't respect Pippen as much either. Especially KD, although KD was bit sensitive. But Pippen thinks he is just as good as KD..hahah.
But y'know who did respect Pippen a lot? Kobe. He loved watching him play defense. He once invited Kayne West to play ball or whatever. But instead of playing ball, they watched Pippen tapes. Kobe loved watching Pippen play defense. He thought it was unreal how much ground he would cover. He even have a video of his detailed series just on Pippen. And even he wouldn't think Pippen was good or as important as MJ.
Everybody studies MJ or Kobe tho. They both had very similar games. KD mentions watching MJ play defense too, he found it amazing on his timing and his reflexes. Everyone who watch him play d mentions that. And he was like, "No wonder why they call him the black cat."
Pippen never got that respect tho even though he was amazing defensively. Other ppl do acknowledge it and I think his defense got more acknowledge over time. However I just feel him releasing a book talking about MJ and sort'a comparing himself to him is a bad idea to convince the masses and the peers. They would never consider him to be as important or just as good as MJ. MJ is MJ man. He has the stats, accomplishments, the moves, and the popularity. Made the league a lot of money.
there were 3 championship rosters with a manic driven star and a 2nd that didn't quite care enough to reach his potential, for which the dominant was vocal in his concerns
Bird - McHale
Jordan - Pippen
Kobe - Shaq
Magic was kind of like the less-driven role, he couldn't bother to work on a decent jump shot, the exception to the rule, and KA-J wasn't publicly motivated enough to badmouth his teammate, not that he was a nice guy....
Pippen was the locker room leader and captain of the team, Jordan—much like Wilt Chamberlain before him—chased statistical accolades over any sort of team success.
[QUOTE=expansionera;14477164]Pippen was the locker room leader and captain of the team, Jordan—much like Wilt Chamberlain before him—chased statistical accolades over any sort of team success.[/QUOTE]
Bingo@!!!!!
Pippen has always been a team first guy. Winning a championship requires far more than just being talented.
Shaq and MJ could run roughshod over the league. But how long until one or the other developes an issue with their role? Like Kobe did.
Put Shaq and Jordan on the same team, for 20 years and an age difference of a couple years and one or the other is no longer looked at the same way.
Pippen being overrated by the same clueless posters.
:oldlol:
If you put Shaq and Jordan together, they would completely annhilate the league. Pippen's 'leadership' was nothing more than being a reliable sidekick. Period. He was and has always been jealous of Mike.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy;14477205]Pippen being overrated by the same clueless posters.
:oldlol:
If you put Shaq and Jordan together, they would completely annhilate the league. Pippen's 'leadership' was nothing more than being a reliable sidekick. Period. He was and has always been jealous of Mike.[/QUOTE]
Comprehension. Jordan and Pippen and the Bulls completely annihilated the league. 72, 69, 67, able to remain competitive with with Jordan gone in 94, able to remain competitive with Pippen gone in 98. And 6 championships in 8 years. Lol if that ain't annihilation relative to other dynasties, I don't know what is.
But here's where the comprehension come in. I said Shaq and Jordan would run roughshod over the league. But what I also said was how long would one be willing to sacrifice their personal glory for team success and watch as the other gets all the credit before he wants to break off and do his own thing like Kobe did. No other dynasty can say that their two best players shared their primes together and stay together as long as Jordan and Pippen.
Again, why did Kobe leave?
Why did Durant leave?
Why did Irving leave?
And let's be honest, by all accounts, Jordan was a terrible teammate. He all but admitted it. It takes a special type of player to be good enough to do what Pippen did in Jordan's hiatus and be willing to take a backseat his whole career. And be willing to stand beside him while he behaved the way he did.
If either Shaq or Jordan is forced to play behind the other all their career, they wouldn't be looked at as we see then today. Kobe was not nearly as respected for his role in winning those 3 championships with Shaq as he was for winning those two. If anything Gasol saved Bryant's legacy. Because the Lakers were looked at as a joke before Gasol came. That's why Bryant publicly demanded a trade. Let's stop with the revisionist history.
Based on what I’ve heard from Horace and Kerr (on top of Pippen obviously), I don’t think Jordan’s style in practice necessarily made them better. At least when it came to his temper/competitiveness.
The Last Dance made it seem like Jordan was a god in practice, but Horace was basically saying how people would buck back at Jordan all the time and not out of being angry so much as just wanting him to shut the fvck up, but knuckle if it’s there.
He knocked at Kerr, which is why he felt bad because Kerr apparently isn’t the only one who let him have it like that.
1994 Pippen would have won a championship with Demar Derozan in place of Pete Myers whereas Jordan had Oakley and Woolridge and could not win a fu**ing playoff game :lol
Jordan needs Pippen. Pippen needs Derozan.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14477388]Based on what I’ve heard from Horace and Kerr (on top of Pippen obviously), I don’t think Jordan’s style in practice necessarily made them better. At least when it came to his temper/competitiveness.
The Last Dance made it seem like Jordan was a god in practice, but Horace was basically saying how people would buck back at Jordan all the time and not out of being angry so much as just wanting him to shut the fvck up, but knuckle if it’s there.
He knocked at Kerr, which is why he felt bad because Kerr apparently isn’t the only one who let him have it like that.[/QUOTE]
Eh...it depends on who you talk to. He was pretty harsh on his teammates and a jerk. But they did say, "I guess it worked," as mentioned in the documentary.
[quote]
Another former teammate, Will Perdue, didn't mince words when recalling what it was like to practice with Jordan: "Let's not get it wrong, he was an asshole. He was a jerk. He crossed the line numerous times. But as time goes on, and you think back about what he was actually trying to accomplish, you were like, Yeah, he was a hell of a teammate."
[/quote]
[quote]Ultimately, "he was pushing us all to be better because he wanted to win," said Bill Wennington, who played with Jordan and the Bulls from 1993-1999. "And guess what. It worked."
[/quote]
[url]https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/17/michael-jordan-was-jerk-says-teammates-why-it-helped.html[/url]
But Kobe did something similar to MJ. Pretty much cut from the same cloth, but it seems like MJ was a bit harsher? But maybe it's not as publicized?
Shaq yelled at his teammates and belittle sometimes, to get them fired up. Got into a fight with Kobe. Rodman said that environment was worse than all of his previous teams if I can recall.
Kenny told stories about those Rockets team did something similar.
Even Magic yelled at his teammates, and I think the Celts mentioned how they preferred how Bird lead.
And you have Jimmy Butler now lol.
It just depends. Either or, you need a solid team to really do it. And you have to give credit to Pippen. It seemed he was a very good leader with the Bulls squad. But he even had his up and downs. Especially with the refusal to come to the game when he couldn't take the last shot. And it didn't carry over with the Rockets, but it be like that sometimes. But if you look at all the quotes, even before the last dance, lots of ppl call Pippen their favorite teammate. When MJ would belittle the teammates, Pippen would pick them back up and say, "Don't worry about that. You're okay. Don't listen to him."
There are different ways to lead. But it also depends on the personality of the team as well. Sometimes the way MJ leads won't be as effective with some other players. Barkley mentioned that he knew what teammate to yell at and get them fired up and what teammate not to. Shaq was the same way. But sometimes they just fall within that trap. Some players play better mad, some do not.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14477386]Comprehension. Jordan and Pippen and the Bulls completely annihilated the league. 72, 69, 67, able to remain competitive with with Jordan gone in 94, able to remain competitive with Pippen gone in 98. And 6 championships in 8 years. Lol if that ain't annihilation relative to other dynasties, I don't know what is.[/QUOTE]
And they're saying the 90s were basically a weak and watered-down era. 😒
[QUOTE=Micku;14477445]Eh...it depends on who you talk to. He was pretty harsh on his teammates and a jerk. But they did say, "I guess it worked," as mentioned in the documentary.
[url]https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/17/michael-jordan-was-jerk-says-teammates-why-it-helped.html[/url]
But Kobe did something similar to MJ. Pretty much cut from the same cloth, but it seems like MJ was a bit harsher? But maybe it's not as publicized?
Shaq yelled at his teammates and belittle sometimes, to get them fired up. Got into a fight with Kobe. Rodman said that environment was worse than all of his previous teams if I can recall.
Kenny told stories about those Rockets team did something similar.
Even Magic yelled at his teammates, and I think the Celts mentioned how they preferred how Bird lead.
And you have Jimmy Butler now lol.
It just depends. Either or, you need a solid team to really do it. And you have to give credit to Pippen. It seemed he was a very good leader with the Bulls squad. But he even had his up and downs. Especially with the refusal to come to the game when he couldn't take the last shot. And it didn't carry over with the Rockets, but it be like that sometimes. But if you look at all the quotes, even before the last dance, lots of ppl call Pippen their favorite teammate. When MJ would belittle the teammates, Pippen would pick them back up and say, "Don't worry about that. You're okay. Don't listen to him."
There are different ways to lead. But it also depends on the personality of the team as well. Sometimes the way MJ leads won't be as effective with some other players. Barkley mentioned that he knew what teammate to yell at and get them fired up and what teammate not to. Shaq was the same way. But sometimes they just fall within that trap. Some players play better mad, some do not.[/QUOTE]
But the funny thing is Micku, I've never really heard about how disrespectful a teammate Shaq and Kobe and Magic were. Shaq and Kobe didn't get along. Because of a power struggle. What does that say. I find it hard to believe that the players you named didn't scream at their teammates. That's a part of being a team. But for some reason, that's big point when talking about Jordan as a teammate.
What happened when Draymond Green called Kevin Durant a bitch? And said 'we don't need you'. Durant left for the Nets. Players can take criticism, but when it's gets to be too much, something has to give. Pippen smoothed that over. And that's a big reason for the Bulls success.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14477580]But the funny thing is Micku, [B]I've never really heard about how disrespectful a teammate [/B]Shaq and [B]Kobe[/B] and Magic were. Shaq and Kobe didn't get along. Because of a power struggle. What does that say. I find it hard to believe that the players you named didn't scream at their teammates. That's a part of being a team. But for some reason, that's big point when talking about Jordan as a teammate.
What happened when Draymond Green called Kevin Durant a bitch? And said 'we don't need you'. Durant left for the Nets. Players can take criticism, but when it's gets to be too much, something has to give. Pippen smoothed that over. And that's a big reason for the Bulls success.[/QUOTE]
lol, there is a bunch of stuff out there on Kobe being a douche to his teammates. And given Shaq's petty personality it wouldn't surprise me at all if he mistreated teammates, especially in his younger days.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14477386]Comprehension. Jordan and Pippen and the Bulls completely annihilated the league. 72, 69, 67, able to remain competitive with with Jordan gone in 94, able to remain competitive with Pippen gone in 98. And 6 championships in 8 years. Lol if that ain't annihilation relative to other dynasties, I don't know what is.
But here's where the comprehension come in. I said Shaq and Jordan would run roughshod over the league. But what I also said was how long would one be willing to sacrifice their personal glory for team success and watch as the other gets all the credit before he wants to break off and do his own thing like Kobe did. No other dynasty can say that their two best players shared their primes together and stay together as long as Jordan and Pippen.[/quote]
You're repeating the same talking points, and they're still moot. Chicago would dominate even more with Shaq. Remove Pippen's poor postseason shooting, and the second 3-peat Bulls would look unbeatable against Utah and Indiana.
Pippen was always envious, but also passive aggressive and could never stand up to Mike. What exposed him are his actions. The truth is, he wasn't a leader. Scottie Pippen was always about Scottie Pippen, and did whatever it took to get out of Jordan's shadow. Whatever his skillset allowed anyway.
Shaq and Jordan would've bumped heads, sure. Both have sky high egos. But they would have been so dominate it wouldn't matter. Shaq has ALWAYS respected Mike and views him as an elder statesman. An original. The two would've lasted longer than Kobe/Shaq and unlike Pippen, Shaq could command double and triple teams. Imagine freeing up Michael Jordan for [I]easier[/I] baskets. Yeah...frightening.
[quote]And let's be honest, by all accounts, Jordan was a terrible teammate. He all but admitted it. It takes a special type of player to be good enough to do what Pippen did in Jordan's hiatus and be willing to take a backseat his whole career. And be willing to stand beside him while he behaved the way he did.[/quote]
MJ led the Bulls to 6 rings. You don't do that being a 'terrible' teammate. :lol Mike led with Pippen literally jealous of his success throughout. If anything, it speaks to great leadership.
That's the honest take here. Not some lip service, revisionist history bulljive.
No chance MJ would share the scoring with Shaq. He'd expect him to strictly concentrate on rebounding and defense, just as Rodman's role was.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14477388]Based on what I’ve heard from Horace and Kerr (on top of Pippen obviously), I don’t think Jordan’s style in practice necessarily made them better. [SIZE=5]At least when it came to his temper/competitiveness. [/SIZE]
The Last Dance made it seem like Jordan was a god in practice, but Horace was basically saying how people would buck back at Jordan all the time and not out of being angry so much as just wanting him to shut the fvck up, but knuckle if it’s there.
He knocked at Kerr, which is why he felt bad because Kerr apparently isn’t the only one who let him have it like that.[/QUOTE]
Pippen averaged 8 ppg in 1988, which cost the Bulls the title - ditto Horace
It wasn't much better in 89' or 90'
These guys were bums that MJ had to curse, scrape, prod, and cajole into being just solid producers - he was never able to get them to juggernaut, elite-producing status... because again, they started out as bums - they weren't good right away like Worthy or Nique', who Jordan would never need to lose his temper with.. Heck, in Worthy's first Playoffs, he averaged 22 on 64% in the Finals.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14477583]lol, there is a bunch of stuff out there on Kobe being a douche to his teammates. And given Shaq's petty personality it wouldn't surprise me at all if he mistreated teammates, especially in his younger days.[/QUOTE]
Really? Show me. Again, not saying Kobe and others weren't confrontational. But show me where the players mentioned had behaviors anywhere near Jordan.
Smush Parker:
[I]"He told me one day at practice – I tried to talk to him (Kobe) outside of basketball, about football. And he looked at me in practice and was dead serious and said, ‘You can’t talk to me. You need more accolades under your belt before you come talk to me.'"[/I]
[url]http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201406/smush-parker-says-kobe-bryant-said-not-talk-him-during-practice[/url]
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14477647]Really? Show me. Again, not saying Kobe and others weren't confrontational. But show me where the players mentioned had behaviors anywhere near Jordan.[/QUOTE]
Show me where others had to raise 8 ppg and 14 ppg bums like rookie and sophomore Pippen/Horace
I'll wait
The reality is that [U]only MJ[/U] had to actually make teammates better to win
And that was the narrative at the time - the term "elevate teammates" began with MJ, where people used the term to describe why he wasn't on Bird or Magic's level.. People wanted MJ to elevate bums like rookie Pippen into stars like Worthy, Kareem, Parish or DJ.... So the goat did it
[QUOTE=3ba11;14477644]Pippen averaged 8 ppg in 1988, which cost the Bulls the title - ditto Horace
It wasn't much better in 89' or 90'
These guys were bums that MJ had to curse, scrape, prod, and cajole into being just solid producers - he was never able to get them to juggernaut, elite-producing status... because again, they started out as bums - they weren't good right away like Worthy or Nique', who Jordan would never need to lose his temper with.. Heck, in Worthy's first Playoffs, he averaged 22 on 64% in the Finals.[/QUOTE]
It’s so weird how you just forget how basketball, and life, works sometimes.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14477658]It’s so weird how you just forget how basketball, and life, works sometimes.[/QUOTE]
Show me where others had to raise 8 ppg and 14 ppg bums like rookie and sophomore Pippen/Horace
I'll wait
The reality is that only MJ had to actually make teammates better to win, while everyone else had ready-made stars that were great right away.. Heck, Worthy averaged 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals and it was his first playoffs!!
The term "elevate teammates" infact began with MJ, where people used the term to describe why he wasn't on Bird or Magic's level.. People wanted MJ to elevate bums like rookie Pippen into stars like Worthy, Kareem, Parish or DJ.... So the goat did it
Are you really trying to say that people don’t sometimes score less as rookies/sophomores than they do when they’re in their primes?
And if so, are you saying Jordan is the only one who is able to have teammates improve as they gain experience?
People who hate on Jordan are just flat out weird.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14477722]Are you really trying to say that people don’t sometimes score less as rookies/sophomores than they do when they’re in their primes?
And if so, are you saying Jordan is the only one who is able to have teammates improve as they gain experience?[/QUOTE]
Show me someone that won by waiting numerous years for an 8 ppg bench-warming rookie to develop to all-star-caliber?
Maybe Curry with Klay and Dray - his path is most like MJ's, except MJ won 6 chips & fmvp's without adding KD.
But aside from Curry, everyone else already had all-star teammates on their team or guys that were good right away like Worthy dominating his first playoffs with 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals.. That's just 1 example.. Penny was good right away and better than Pippen (outplayed Pippen), yet Jordan destroyed Shaq and made him leave Orlando.
If Pippen went from an 8 ppg rookie to 16/5/5 career average on another team with zero rings - he would be like Shawn Marion and no one would talk about him.... (and we know he would have zero rings because no one ever won by leading their sidekick in every series by 10-30 ppg - only MJ can carry that load, so only MJ has the ability to win with a defensive slasher at 2nd option and no 3rd scorer)
[QUOTE=3ba11;14477726][B]Show me someone that won by waiting numerous years for an 8 ppg bench-warming rookie to develop to all-star-caliber?
[/B]
Maybe Curry with Klay and Dray - his path is most like MJ's, except MJ won 6 chips & fmvp's without adding KD.
But aside from Curry, everyone else already had all-star teammates on their team or guys that were good right away like Worthy dominating his first playoffs with 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals.. That's just 1 example.. Penny was good right away and better than Pippen (outplayed Pippen), yet Jordan destroyed Shaq and made him leave Orlando.
If Pippen went from an 8 ppg rookie to 16/5/5 career average on another team with zero rings - he would be like Shawn Marion and no one would talk about him.... (and we know he would have zero rings because no one ever won by leading their sidekick in every series by 10-30 ppg - only MJ can carry that load, so only MJ has the ability to win with a defensive slasher at 2nd option and no 3rd scorer)[/QUOTE]
That’s not the culture anymore. Instant gratification is the name of the game.
This applies to life in general, not just basketball.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy;14477635]You're repeating the same talking points, and they're still moot. Chicago would dominate even more with Shaq. Remove Pippen's poor postseason shooting, and the second 3-peat Bulls would look unbeatable against Utah and Indiana.
Pippen was always envious, but also passive aggressive and could never stand up to Mike. What exposed him are his actions. The truth is, he wasn't a leader. Scottie Pippen was always about Scottie Pippen, and did whatever it took to get out of Jordan's shadow. Whatever his skillset allowed anyway.
Shaq and Jordan would've bumped heads, sure. Both have sky high egos. But they would have been so dominate it wouldn't matter. Shaq has ALWAYS respected Mike and views him as an elder statesman. An original. The two would've lasted longer than Kobe/Shaq and unlike Pippen, Shaq could command double and triple teams. Imagine freeing up Michael Jordan for [I]easier[/I] baskets. Yeah...frightening.
MJ led the Bulls to 6 rings. You don't do that being a 'terrible' teammate. :lol Mike led with Pippen literally jealous of his success throughout. If anything, it speaks to great leadership.
That's the honest take here. Not some lip service, revisionist history bulljive.[/QUOTE]
How much more? I don't even disagree that they wouldn't. But for how long? How do you guys miss stuff that slapping you right in the face. Why didn't Shaq take a backseat to Kobe for the sake of winning? That's my point. Pippen could've said, I don't want to play in Jordan's shadow and sat out and force the Bulls to trade him. Put the video game controller down bro. We're talking about real people with huge egos and borderline narcissistic personalities. Like I said earlier, it takes a hell of a lot more than talent to win a championship.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14477728]That’s not the culture anymore. Instant gratification is the name of the game.
This applies to life in general, not just basketball.[/QUOTE]
It's a skill-deficit - young ball-handlers like Ingram, Hughes, Rose or Pippen can't develop alongside a ball-dominant producer like Lebron, Westbrook, or Harden, so all these guys eventually resorted to team-hopping, starting with Lebron - their skill restriction to ball-dominance imposed spot-up roles that stalled young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team-hopping).. Lebron had plenty of Pippen's but lacks the elite jumpshooting skill to produce sufficiently off-ball, which would allow everyone to achieve close to their maximum production.
[QUOTE=3ba11;14477651]Show me where others had to raise 8 ppg and 14 ppg bums like rookie and sophomore Pippen/Horace
I'll wait
The reality is that [U]only MJ[/U] had to actually make teammates better to win
And that was the narrative at the time - the term "elevate teammates" began with MJ, where people used the term to describe why he wasn't on Bird or Magic's level.. People wanted MJ to elevate bums like rookie Pippen into stars like Worthy, Kareem, Parish or DJ.... So the goat did it[/QUOTE]
I keep telling you the circumstances of Pippen's rookie year and you just want to stay ignorant.
Pippen was playing with a herniated disk almost his whole rookie year. And he came in playing behind Brad Sellers who was a lottery pick the previous year.
Pippen missed the first 10 games of his second season because he had back surgery in the off season. And you're calling him a bum for that? Come on bro.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14477735]I keep telling you the circumstances of Pippen's rookie year and you just want to stay ignorant.
Pippen was playing with a herniated disk almost his whole rookie year. And he came in playing behind Brad Sellers who was a lottery pick the previous year.
Pippen missed the first 10 games of his second season because he had back surgery in the off season. And you're calling him a bum for that? Come on bro.[/QUOTE]
Pippen was a bum for getting outplayed and losing the 90' ECF, and nearly derailing titles in the 98' ECF or 92' ECF - MJ rarely needed 7 games, but he needed 7 in all of those series because Pippen was destroyed so badly..
Pippen was the kind of guy to average 15 on 33% and let a rebounder like Kevin Willis outplay him in the 93' 1st Round, or he let Majerle have better gamescore in those Finals - Pippen's 21 on 43% was arguably outplayed by 16 on 57% from rookie 4th option Dumas, who won Game 5.
^^^ and that was Pippen's prime..
He averaged 17 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs and 11 ppg from 99-03'..
So guys like Giannis have the 2021 Finals, while Dirk has 2011 and Wade has 2006 and 2011 - so everyone has top 75 performance to support their ranking, EXCEPT PIPPEN
[QUOTE=3ba11;14477743]Pippen was a bum for getting outplayed and losing the 90' ECF, and nearly derailing titles in the 98' ECF or 92' ECF - MJ rarely needed 7 games, but he needed 7 in all of those series because Pippen was destroyed so badly..
Pippen was the kind of guy to average 15 on 33% and let a rebounder like Kevin Willis outplay him in the 93' 1st Round, or he let Majerle have better gamescore in those Finals - Pippen's 21 on 43% was arguably outplayed by 16 on 57% from rookie 4th option Dumas, who won Game 5.
^^^ and that was Pippen's prime..
He averaged 17 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs and 11 ppg from 99-03'..
So guys like Giannis has the 2021 Finals, while Dirk has 2011 and Wade has 2006 and 2011 - so everyone has top 75 performance to support their ranking, EXCEPT PIPPEN[/QUOTE]
This is why I hate messaging. You called Pippen a bum for averaging 8 ppg in his rookie season. I told you his circumstances were he was playing with a bad back. And behind the lottery pick of the previous year in Brad Sellers. So now you want to run away from that and not acknowledge you were wrong.
Pippen was playing on a sprained ankle in the 92 ECSF. He had a great 92 ECF vs the Cavs where he averaged 20/11/6/2/2 and shot 47%.
Again, most of these instances in which you call him a bum, he's playing hurt. Not to mention Pippen wasn't a stats guy. He was about wins. That's why he was so successful. Even more successful without Jordan than Jordan was with Pippen.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14477766]This is why I hate messaging. You called Pippen a bum for averaging 8 ppg in his rookie season. I told you his circumstances were he was playing with a bad back. And behind the lottery pick of the previous year in Brad Sellers. So now you want to run away from that and not acknowledge you were wrong.
Pippen was playing on a sprained ankle in the 92 ECSF. He had a great 92 ECF vs the Cavs where he averaged 20/11/6/2/2 and shot 47%.
Again, most of these instances in which you call him a bum, he's playing hurt. Not to mention Pippen wasn't a stats guy. He was about wins. That's why he was so successful. Even more successful without Jordan than Jordan was with Pippen.[/QUOTE]
guys like Giannis have the 2021 Finals, while Dirk has 2011 and Wade has the 2006 or 2011 runs - so everyone has top 75 performance to support their ranking, EXCEPT PIPPEN
Where's Pippen's top 75 performance that justifies him being viewed as that kind of player?... Or is it just ring count that fueled media awards and all-time ranking?.. is it performance or ring count?
[QUOTE=3ba11;14477770]guys like Giannis have the 2021 Finals, while Dirk has 2011 and Wade has the 2006 or 2011 runs - so everyone has top 75 performance to support their ranking, EXCEPT PIPPEN
Where's Pippen's top 75 performance that justifies him being viewed as that kind of player?... Or is it just ring count that fueled media awards and all-time ranking?.. is it performance or ring count?[/QUOTE]
What about his 1991 playoff run where he averaged 22/9/7/3/1 while shooting 50% from the field? And he led the playoffs in defensive rating when the opposing SF were Kiki Vandewhe, Charles Barkley, Mark Aguiire, and James Worthy. And he helped Jordan out by checking Magic in Game 2 of the NBA Finals. Combine his defensive performance on Magic, and the 20points he scored and that's every bit as spectacular as a 50 point game. And he (not Jordan) led the Bulls in the closout game 5 with 32 points.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14477731]How much more? I don't even disagree that they wouldn't. But for how long? How do you guys miss stuff that slapping you right in the face. Why didn't Shaq take a backseat to Kobe for the sake of winning? That's my point. Pippen could've said, I don't want to play in Jordan's shadow and sat out and force the Bulls to trade him. Put the video game controller down bro. We're talking about real people with huge egos and borderline narcissistic personalities. Like I said earlier, it takes a hell of a lot more than talent to win a championship.[/QUOTE]
Longer than Kobe and Shaq were together. The Kobe/Shaq feud was another animal and got personal later on.
Wouldn't happen with Mike, who I mentioned Shaq had a ton of respect for. Kobe never got the same attention. He was a copycat loner who 'led' with his play. Moreover, Shaq was better than Kobe whereas Mike would've established dominance. From jump. The dynamics couldn't be different. Be it with age or just plain greatness.
That's what you're not getting.
Pippen didn't have the skill or talent to be #1 over Jordan, but certainly had the ego. This is the same guy refusing to check into a game because a play wasn't drawn up for him.
Again, Pippen's ego was thru the roof. And his jealousy was that of a scorned lover.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy;14477812]Longer than Kobe and Shaq were together. The Kobe/Shaq feud was another animal and got personal later on.
Wouldn't happen with Mike, who I mentioned Shaq had a ton of respect for. Kobe never got the same attention. He was a copycat loner who 'led' with his play. Moreover, Shaq was better than Kobe whereas Mike would've established dominance. From jump. The dynamics couldn't be different. Be it with age or just plain greatness.
That's what you're not getting.
Pippen didn't have the skill or talent to be #1 over Jordan, but certainly had the ego. This is the same guy refusing to check into a game because a play wasn't drawn up for him.
Again, Pippen's ego was thru the roof. And his jealousy was that of a scorned lover.[/QUOTE]
Bro. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend? Shaq respects MJ for what MJ had accomplished. But in a scenario similar to Jordan and Pippen? Or Shaq and Kobe? Where one player is already established when the other joins the team? I just don't see that happening based on actual evidence. Shaq and Kobe, and Jordans huge ego.
And even if it did, then the player that takes the backseat isn't gonna be as highly regarded
If Pippens ego was through the roof as you say, he would've done what many other players did. Demand a trade.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14477827]Bro. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend? Shaq respects MJ for what MJ had accomplished. But in a scenario similar to Jordan and Pippen? Or Shaq and Kobe? Where one player is already established when the other joins the team? I just don't see that happening based on actual evidence. Shaq and Kobe, and Jordans huge ego.
And even if it did, then the player that takes the backseat isn't gonna be as highly regarded
If Pippens ego was through the roof as you say, he would've done what many other players did. Demand a trade.[/QUOTE]
You're not reading posts at this point. Just repeating the same tripe I debunked earlier.
Had Shaq joined Jordan, I don't see how they wouldn't stay longer together than Kobe/Shaq. Knowing their in-game psychology, age and status, I'm not seeing a hyothetical more accurate. Shaq not only respected Jordan, but Jordan was also one of his favorite players growing up.
Nobody is saying they would be 100% peachy, and never bump heads. :oldlol: With PJax, though, I believe the positives simply outweigh the negative.
Mike is the one dude Shaq would listen to and be motivated by. Shaq could legitimately accept that Jordan was better than him. Something most basketball fans already do.
And yeah, Pippen's ego was absolutely ridiculous. Not checking into a game cuz you couldn't take the last shot? Come back to reality, 97.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy;14477828]You're not reading posts at this point. Just repeating the same tripe I debunked earlier.
Had Shaq joined Jordan, I don't see how they wouldn't stay longer together than Kobe/Shaq. Knowing their in-game psychology, age and status, I'm not seeing a hyothetical more accurate. Shaq not only respected Jordan, but Jordan was also one of his favorite players growing up.
Nobody is saying they would be 100% peachy, and never bump heads. :oldlol: With PJax, though, I believe the positives simply outweigh the negative.
Mike is the one dude Shaq would listen to and be motivated by. Shaq could legitimately accept that Jordan was better than him. Something most basketball fans already do.
And yeah, Pippen's ego was absolutely ridiculous. Not checking into a game cuz you couldn't take the last shot? Come back to reality, 97.[/QUOTE]
You didn't debunk anything Kaniva. You keep conflating scenarios. Stay with me here. We're comparing Jordan and Pippens situation to others. Jordan and Pippen were close in age. But Jordan was obviously established and was there first. So you have to apply the same concept to Jordan and Shaq or Shaq and Jordan. Now here's where you mess up. You stated that Shaq respected MJ when he (Shaq) was a kid. I believe Shaq is roughly 10 years younger than MJ. So that makes sense. But that wasn't the same scenario that Jordan and Pippen were in seeing as how they're only a couple years apart in age. Jordan had been in the league 8 years before Shaq. Jordan was working on his 3rd Championship, had multiple MVPs, DPOY etc. Of course Shaq respected MJ lol. But again that's not the Scenario. It has to be a scenario similar to Pippen and Jordan. Where one has been in the league a couple years before the other arrives. I don't see why Shaq would hold MJ in such a high regard since Jordan hadn't accomplished much yet. You're trying to put early 2000s Shaq and early 90s MJ together. When both were at their apex and established. There has to be a progression. If they both join forces, something has to give. I just don't see Shaq scoring at the rate he did because of MJ. And he's probably not winning any MVPs or Finals MVPs. Because if he does (and here's the rub) then that takes away from Jordan's accolades. And as I said previously, them being together would make them dominant, but ones legacy would not be looked at in the same way if they decided to stay together as long as Jordan and Pippen did.
And the same holds true if it's flipped and Jordan joins Shaqs team. I mean we saw that with Shaq and Kobe. Shaq did not want to share the spotlight with Kobe. Hell there were rumors that he didn't like the hype Penny Hardaway was getting. And that was one of the reasons he left Orlando.
[QUOTE]And yeah, Pippen's ego was absolutely ridiculous. Not checking into a game cuz you couldn't take the last shot? Come back to reality, 97[/QUOTE]
Why do you keep bringing this up? Jordan wasn't even on the team lol. Pippen has never said he was mad because Jordan always got the last shot. He understood because it's Jordan. But he felt he earned the right (which he did) to have the opportunity to be the hero and win the game. Jordan did something very similar when he stole the ball from Kukoc when it was clear that Jackson drew up the play for Toni in game 5 of the 98 Finals.
Again, I'm basing my assessment on what actually happened and what's reasonable.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14477580]But the funny thing is Micku, I've never really heard about how disrespectful a teammate Shaq and Kobe and Magic were. Shaq and Kobe didn't get along. Because of a power struggle. What does that say. I find it hard to believe that the players you named didn't scream at their teammates. That's a part of being a team. But for some reason, that's big point when talking about Jordan as a teammate.
What happened when Draymond Green called Kevin Durant a bitch? And said 'we don't need you'. Durant left for the Nets. Players can take criticism, but when it's gets to be too much, something has to give. Pippen smoothed that over. And that's a big reason for the Bulls success.[/QUOTE]
Well with Magic, he was more harsh than Bird was. But Kobe, MJ and Shaq were likely harsher. I remember a story where Magic throw the ball at his teammate head sometime in the beginning of the career on purpose or something. They got into it, but they were fine on the court.
With Kobe, it was known he was a jerk to his teammates. But only because if he doesn't see the "work ethic". He admitted it too a bunch of times.
[url]https://www.sportscasting.com/kobe-bryant-ruthlessly-explained-why-a-hole-with-teammates-i-dont-respect-their-work-ethic/[/url]
[quote]
Phil man, some of my teammates don’t understand the work. I see dudes walk into practice 10 minutes before practice, and they leave right after….why the **** am I going to pass them the basketball. I don’t respect their work ethic. I am in here, busting my ass every day trying to perfect my craft, and these dudes don’t want to work on their game. I don’t trust them, so I’m not going to pass them the basketball. I will ride them every day, and it made perfect sense. [/quote]
[quote]
Lakers’ Kobe Bryant was the modern-day Michael Jordan in many aspects. His leadership style matched with that of the 6x Champion because he would never shy away from making his teammates uncomfortable during practice. A firm believer in the mamba mentality, Kobe would not allow anything below greatness to roam around him. [/quote]
[url]https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-basketball-news-dont-respect-their-work-ethic-los-angeles-lakers-assistant-coach-phil-handy-reveals-why-kobe-bryant-didnt-trust-his-teammates/[/url]
Shaq would get pissed off at his teammates and say shit too, but he would invite them parties afterwards. Kobe was more of a loner. MJ did go to parties and was more of a..."people" person in some aspect.
Dwight Howard mentioned how difficult Kobe was as a teammate. But Howard didn't play with younger Kobe, which was even worse.
Here you can see what Del Harris would say:
[quote]
Former Los Angeles Lakers head coach Del Harris recently revealed that Kobe wasn't the best of teammates when he started his career. Kobe's desire to become the best player of all time often made him go mad at his teammates, losing patience with them.
Harris said Kobe's priority was himself. They were together for three years and he witnessed how the young Mamba approached the game and his teammates, admitting he later would improve his attitude and become a leader and a mentor for several players.
[/quote]
[url]https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/ex-lakers-coach-kobe-bryant-wasnt-the-best-teammate-early-in-his-career[/url]
And this is like 18-20 year old Kobe. Shaq didn't like it cuz:
1. Shaq's the man. The alpha
2. Kobe is a young kid
Kobe would get into it with a bunch of guys. How disrespectful did he get? I dunno. The Lakers did a good job at keeping all hush hush. He got into it with Jeremy Lin too and he mentioned a story about how he stood up for himself in a podcast. He said that if you don't stand up for yourself, Kobe wouldn't respect you. Very similar to MJ. You even see Shaq just giggle whenever they talk about on Inside of the NBA when they mention the practices with Kobe, but he wouldn't reveal the details. But he was definitely more selfish than MJ and it showed on the court. Phil Jackson even tried to invite MJ to teach him about the importance of team play. MJ would do a quick 3 dribbles to attack or score or whatever and he would play within the system. Kobe didn't really do that as often. And when MJ came to Kobe, Kobe was all like, "I can beat you one on one."
But it seemed he was a modern MJ for sure. There is probably a lot of that going on. But they won anyway. And again, Shaq was similar. There are other dudes who were tho.
[QUOTE=Micku;14477944]Well with Magic, he was more harsh than Bird was. But Kobe, MJ and Shaq were likely harsher. I remember a story where Magic throw the ball at his teammate head sometime in the beginning of the career on purpose or something. They got into it, but they were fine on the court.
With Kobe, it was known he was a jerk to his teammates. But only because if he doesn't see the "work ethic". He admitted it too a bunch of times.
[url]https://www.sportscasting.com/kobe-bryant-ruthlessly-explained-why-a-hole-with-teammates-i-dont-respect-their-work-ethic/[/url]
[url]https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-basketball-news-dont-respect-their-work-ethic-los-angeles-lakers-assistant-coach-phil-handy-reveals-why-kobe-bryant-didnt-trust-his-teammates/[/url]
Shaq would get pissed off at his teammates and say shit too, but he would invite them parties afterwards. Kobe was more of a loner. MJ did go to parties and was more of a..."people" person in some aspect.
Dwight Howard mentioned how difficult Kobe was as a teammate. But Howard didn't play with younger Kobe, which was even worse.
Here you can see what Del Harris would say:
[url]https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/ex-lakers-coach-kobe-bryant-wasnt-the-best-teammate-early-in-his-career[/url]
And this is like 18-20 year old Kobe. Shaq didn't like it cuz:
1. Shaq's the man. The alpha
2. Kobe is a young kid
Kobe would get into it with a bunch of guys. How disrespectful did he get? I dunno. The Lakers did a good job at keeping all hush hush. He got into it with Jeremy Lin too and he mentioned a story about how he stood up for himself in a podcast. He said that if you don't stand up for yourself, Kobe wouldn't respect you. Very similar to MJ. You even see Shaq just giggle whenever they talk about on Inside of the NBA when they mention the practices with Kobe, but he wouldn't reveal the details. But he was definitely more selfish than MJ and it showed on the court. Phil Jackson even tried to invite MJ to teach him about the importance of team play. MJ would do a quick 3 dribbles to attack or score or whatever and he would play within the system. Kobe didn't really do that as often. And when MJ came to Kobe, Kobe was all like, "I can beat you one on one."
But it seemed he was a modern MJ for sure. There is probably a lot of that going on. But they won anyway. And again, Shaq was similar. There are other dudes who were tho.[/QUOTE]
Interesting. But I stated such. I don't see anything wrong with getting mad at your teammates for giving the bare minimum. Especially when you as the teams best player is giving 110%.
Jordan berated his teammates. Telling the flight attendant to not give Grant food because he had a bad game? Punching Steve Kerr for playing hard defense? Bullying players? I'm just not hearing that from other alltime greats teammates.
And Jordan wasn't friendly with his teammates. Pippen and Rodman said they never talked outside of the game. The same for the rest of their teammates. They all lived in their own world.