I still think Jokic is underrated

Because Jokic lacks the [B]footwork, athletic build, finesse, talent/moves[/B] that many top offensive centers have had, his game depends on a few things: craftiness, precise shooting, and using his body to create distance from the defender. On the latter, Jokic depends on white refs to let him get away with ALOT of physical contact that would likely be called as a foul were he not white. I'd say that accounts for about 1/3rd of his game. He is still a great player but not an all-time great player because he is getting a major handout from the refs, which makes up for his lack of offensive skill.

I still admire his passing ability and versatility on the offensive end. Too slow to be an effective rim protector and defensive presence.

[QUOTE=bdonovan;14772144]Because Jokic lacks the [B]footwork, athletic build, finesse, talent/moves[/B] that many top offensive centers have had, his game depends on a few things: craftiness, precise shooting, and using his body to create distance from the defender. On the latter, Jokic depends on white refs to let him get away with ALOT of physical contact that would likely be called as a foul were he not white. I'd say that accounts for about 1/3rd of his game. He is still a great player but not an all-time great player because he is getting a major handout from the refs, which makes up for his lack of offensive skill.

I still admire his passing ability and versatility on the offensive end. Too slow to be an effective rim protector and defensive presence.[/QUOTE]

He is absolutely an all-time great player. Beyond absurd to claim he isn't. He's going to walk into the hall if he retired right this moment.

[QUOTE=bdonovan;14772144]Because Jokic lacks the [B]footwork, athletic build, finesse, talent/moves[/B] that many top offensive centers have had, his game depends on a few things: craftiness, precise shooting, and using his body to create distance from the defender. On the latter, Jokic depends on white refs to let him get away with ALOT of physical contact that would likely be called as a foul were he not white. I'd say that accounts for about 1/3rd of his game. He is still a great player but not an all-time great player because he is getting a major handout from the refs, which makes up for his lack of offensive skill.

I still admire his passing ability and versatility on the offensive end. Too slow to be an effective rim protector and defensive presence.[/QUOTE]
Shut up fakkit

[QUOTE=bdonovan;14772144]Because Jokic lacks the [B]footwork, athletic build, finesse, talent/moves[/B] that many top offensive centers have had, his game depends on a few things: craftiness, precise shooting, and using his body to create distance from the defender. On the latter, Jokic depends on white refs to let him get away with ALOT of physical contact that would likely be called as a foul were he not white. I'd say that accounts for about 1/3rd of his game. He is still a great player but not an all-time great player because he is getting a major handout from the refs, which makes up for his lack of offensive skill.

I still admire his passing ability and versatility on the offensive end. Too slow to be an effective rim protector and defensive presence.[/QUOTE]

This is one of the most bizarre and off-base posts I've seen.

Bdumbnavan makes up negative things about every player besides his hero Curry. He also claims Durant is a negative impact player.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14772150]Bdumbnavan makes up negative things about every player besides his hero Curry. He also claims Durant is a negative impact player.[/QUOTE]

Tell me where I made something up.

He has not put the time in the gym to develop strong muscle tone nor top conditioning.

His footwork is nothing compared to Hakeem or Tim Duncan; oftentimes he turns in circles and very clearly moves his pivot foot but is never called for traveling.

His defense is subpar and he's not a rim protector like a lot of the All Time Great centers who were excellent two way players.

He is not fast and has slow reflexes.

He lacks a go-to shot like Kareem's hook shot or Ewing's fade away. A lot of his baskets come from knocking the defender backwards, not beating them to the position because he lacks the speed of a Hakeem or even a Shaquille O'neal.

I said he was a great player not all time great, but that's clearly enough for people to lose their mind.

[QUOTE=bdonovan;14772160]Tell me where I made something up.

He has not put the time in the gym to develop strong muscle tone nor top conditioning.

His footwork is nothing compared to Hakeem or Tim Duncan; oftentimes he turns in circles and very clearly moves his pivot foot but is never called for traveling.

His defense is subpar and he's not a rim protector like a lot of the All Time Great centers who were excellent two way players.

He is not fast and has slow reflexes.

He lacks a go-to shot like Kareem's hook shot or Ewing's fade away. A lot of his baskets come from knocking the defender backwards, not beating them to the position because he lacks the speed of a Hakeem or even a Shaquille O'neal.

I said he was a great player not all time great, but that's clearly enough for people to lose their mind.[/QUOTE]

Because he plays the game differently than the standard of the position doesn't mean as much to me. He has incredible touch around the basket with both hands, is one of the best shooters the position has ever seen, and is certainly the best passer. On top of that he has the IQ to know when and where to attack and get himself and his teammates in the best position possible.

You're talking purely about the bag (which Jokic is not lacking) and ignoring the big picture of what his play does during a game.

[QUOTE=bdonovan;14772160]Tell me where I made something up.

He has not put the time in the gym to develop strong muscle tone nor top conditioning.

His footwork is nothing compared to Hakeem or Tim Duncan; oftentimes he turns in circles and very clearly moves his pivot foot but is never called for traveling.

His defense is subpar and he's not a rim protector like a lot of the All Time Great centers who were excellent two way players.

He is not fast and has slow reflexes.

He lacks a go-to shot like Kareem's hook shot or Ewing's fade away. A lot of his baskets come from knocking the defender backwards, not beating them to the position because he lacks the speed of a Hakeem or even a Shaquille O'neal.

I said he was a great player not all time great, but that's clearly enough for people to lose their mind.[/QUOTE]
You said Jokic lacks footwork, moves and finesse which no one who’s ever watched him play would say unless they were seething with rage the whole time they watched him. Reminds me of LeBron haters saying he can’t post up.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14772166]Because he plays the game differently than the standard of the position doesn't mean as much to me. He has incredible touch around the basket with both hands, is one of the best shooters the position has ever seen, and is certainly the best passer. On top of that he has the IQ to know when and where to attack and get himself and his teammates in the best position possible.

You're talking purely about the bag (which Jokic is not lacking) and ignoring the big picture of what his play does during a game.[/QUOTE]

I agree with that. He does make his teammates better which is a major plus and puts him above stars who simply score.

However, it seems people completely ignore his weaknesses when talking about him. I really wonder whether the Nuggets can with Jokic as their lead and it's not a "more help" thing; if he cant' win it all, with the pieces he has around him, I doubt he is an all-time great.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14772167]You said Jokic lacks footwork, moves and finesse which no one who’s ever watched him play would say unless they were seething with rage the whole time they watched him. Reminds me of LeBron haters saying he can’t post up.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I need to watch more games with him but the ones I've seen, I don't know that I would classify it that way. He creates separation with his size, and then is quick to get a shot off. He uses intelligence and timing more than practiced skill or athleticism that comes from physical training. When I say he lacks those 3 things above, compare him to videos of Hakeem Olajuwon some time.

Jokic is Dirk/Bird/Nash all in one.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14775120]Jokic is Dirk/Bird/Nash all in one.[/QUOTE]

and Shaq.

The way he bullies opponents with his size and backs them down is very Shaq like.


Its crazy to think a player would be reminiscent of both Nash and Shaq. And everything in between, like Dirk.

Guy is a unicorn.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14775121]and Shaq.

The way he bullies opponents with his size and backs them down is very Shaq like.


Its crazy to think a player would be reminiscent of both Nash and Shaq. And everything in between, like Dirk.

Guy is a unicorn.[/QUOTE]

I want to include this part of my OP from December.

"I still see many people act like Embiid is better than Jokic, which is very odd since Embiid has accomplished less than Joker and is definitely a worse playoff performer."

This was STILL true even during the 1st round of the playoffs.

Embiid's playoff career is littered with injuries, mental chokes, and underperformances. Meanwhile Jokic has been a superstar pretty much always in the playoffs.

If Embiid loses game 7 against the Celtics, then hopefully any talk of Embiid>Jokic will stop.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14775122]I want to include this part of my OP from December.

"I still see many people act like Embiid is better than Jokic, which is very odd since Embiid has accomplished less than Joker and is definitely a worse playoff performer."

This was STILL true even during the 1st round of the playoffs.

[B]Embiid's playoff career is littered with injuries, mental chokes, and underperformances. Meanwhile Jokic has been a superstar pretty much always in the playoffs.

If Embiid loses game 7 against the Celtics, then hopefully any talk of Embiid>Jokic will stop.[/B][/QUOTE]

Quick bump from two days ago.

Not surprised at all that Embiid stunk up game 7.

Jokic and Giannis are clearly ahead of Embiid until Embiid can physically and mentally play like a superstar in the playoffs.

One more W until he gets to his first finals. Really hope he wins a ring this year and shuts up all the media/fan morons. Jokic is the most skilled player of all time.

As I understand it, the thinking is as follows: He has a vertical leap of somewhere between 5-10”. Therefore, he must be bad at basketball. Don’t believe all those other things that might indicate otherwise.

:rockon:

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14702260]Dude is basically Dirk Nowitzki but with elite PG passing abilities added on. Even though he hasn't made a finals yet, he has always been a superstar in the playoffs.

Last three regular seasons averages (170 games).
Jokic: 26.4/12/8.2 with only 3.5 turnovers per game. [B]32.1 PER[/B], 66 TS%, [B]12.8 BPM[/B]

I understand the league is very offensive friendly now, but the Joker is annihilating everyone on offense. His advanced stats look like prime MJ/Lebron level. If he was a black American and athletic (more exciting playstyle), he'd be in GOAT talks. I still see many people act like Embiid is better than Jokic, which is very odd since Embiid has accomplished less than Joker and is definitely a worse playoff performer.[/QUOTE]

OP is dead on.

There are STILL tons of people not willing to say Jokic is the best player in the league...it's insane.

Not only has he been the best player for the last three years, but is easily peaking as one of the best offensive players of all time.

When have we had a player who is an elite scorer from every spot on the floor AND the best passer in the league?

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14796646]Not only has he been the best player for the last three years, but is easily peaking as one of the best offensive players of all time.
[/QUOTE]

I think he is not at his peak yet. Doesn't rely much on jumping and speed so his peak may be when he is 30-33. He is in his prime and has been for the last 2-3 years but I think he still has a gear in him. Like the last game, aka game 3 vs. the Heat. He can constantly play that way in the playoffs. He was visibly better than is games 1 and 2. If he starts the game with rebounding aggresseively and with a chip on his shoulder, wanting to take over like he did in all game 3, he is bound to have some even better performances.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14796670]I think he is not at his peak yet. Doesn't rely much on jumping and speed so his peak may be when he is 30-33. He is in his prime and has been for the last 2-3 years but I think he still has a gear in him. Like the last game, aka game 3 vs. the Heat. He can constantly play that way in the playoffs. He was visibly better than is games 1 and 2. If he starts the game with rebounding aggresseively and with a chip on his shoulder, wanting to take over like he did in all game 3, he is bound to have some even better performances.[/QUOTE]

I don't see him getting better physically, but with even more experience, he should get better defensively and better from 3.

He doesn't really need to get better either. This postseason he dominated AD in their head to head as well. The only thing that remains to be seen is how he would do against another big center such as Embiid, but that's basically it. Who else can stop Jokic with a halfway competent team?

[QUOTE=90sgoat;14796680]I don't see him getting better physically, but with even more experience, he should get better defensively and better from 3.

He doesn't really need to get better either. This postseason he dominated AD in their head to head as well. The only thing that remains to be seen is how he would do against another big center such as Embiid, but that's basically it. Who else can stop Jokic with a halfway competent team?[/QUOTE]

He doesn't need to get better. All I was saying is that I can imagine him becoming even better. Nash became better over 30. Not physically but as a player. One can argue that Kobe became better despite being less athletic at aroind the age of 30. Dirk was at his best as a 32-33 year-old. The way Jokic plays he can improve in some areas, one of them being looking to attack the basket more just like he did this last game. We shall see,

[QUOTE=Akeem34TheDream;14702272]Jokic's terrible defense hurts the Nuggets in the playoffs. According to the some advanced stats he is one of the 3 best players ever but he has terrible on/off numbers in the playoffs. Guys like Curry and KD are better defenders. I really like Jokic actually he is incredibly entertaining but he isn't much better than Embiid. Maybe very slightly. He is much better offensively but also much worse defensively.[/QUOTE]

OOOF okay this post aged terribly and i know that his supporting cast was terrible in the last 2 playoffs but the way they got swept against the Suns was so terrible. Chris Paul pretty much exposed him in that series. Seriously go watch it. But the Nuggets and Jokic got much better obviously. I have heard someone say those 2 playoff experiences made him a better player because he became a more aggressive scorer and i agree with that. Also Jokic and Murray compliment each other beautifully. I just regret the Embiid part, i feel like he played even worse in recent playoffs.

[QUOTE=Akeem34TheDream;14796688]OOOF okay this post aged terribly and i know that his supporting cast was terrible in the last 2 playoffs but the way they got swept against the Suns was so terrible. Chris Paul pretty much exposed him in that series. Seriously go watch it. But the Nuggets and Jokic got much better obviously. I have heard someone say those 2 playoff experiences made him a better player because he became a more aggressive scorer and i agree with that. Also Jokic and Murray compliment each other beautifully. I just regret the Embiid part, i feel like he played even worse in recent playoffs.[/QUOTE]

Embiid literally never had an argument as being better than Jokic.

Even when people were trying to tear down Jokic during this season by saying he "hasn't done anything in the playoffs" (which is ignorant and a lie), he's literally gone further in the playoffs then Embiid ever has. So even that argument was complete bullshit.

People are simply mad that Jokic has proven them ignorant.

First 3 finals games for Jokic.

33/14/9 on 59/44/86 splits. If he keeps this up and wins a ring, it might be the best "debut" finals performance since MJ in 91.

Seriously hoping Denver wins this ring so all the dumbasses can shut up about Jokic.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14796700]First 3 finals games for Jokic.

33/14/9 on 59/44/86 splits. I[B]f he keeps this up and wins a ring, it might be the best "debut" finals performance since MJ in 91.[/B]

Seriously hoping Denver wins this ring so all the dumbasses can shut up about Jokic.[/QUOTE]

Giannis was great too. I think it's him, Jokic, and MJ in terms of best debut since 1990.

But Jokic got some crazy stats. Dude is averaging a 30pt triple-double in the playoffs. All the way to the finals. Insane.

[QUOTE=Akeem34TheDream;14796688]OOOF okay this post aged terribly and i know that his supporting cast was terrible in the last 2 playoffs but the way they got swept against the Suns was so terrible. Chris Paul pretty much exposed him in that series. Seriously go watch it. But the Nuggets and Jokic got much better obviously. I have heard someone say those 2 playoff experiences made him a better player because he became a more aggressive scorer and i agree with that. Also Jokic and Murray compliment each other beautifully. I just regret the Embiid part, i feel like he played even worse in recent playoffs.[/QUOTE]

On/off is a terrible stat to use, because it highly overrates starters on good teams or good benches on bad teams.

Still can't believe this guy had so many haters.

Just goes to show the NBA fan base is casual and dumb as hell.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14702276]He is underrated among the fan base though...which is my point. He is barely talked about just like Duncan was barely talked about compared to Shaq, Kobe, and even KG.

[B]I'd be willing to bet that the average NBA fan holds someone like Carmelo Anthony in higher regards than Jokic.[/B][/QUOTE]

God damn I made so many good posts in this thread. Bolding this one for sure since I called it early. So many Jokic haters/casuals literally JUST realized this postseason Jokic took Carmelo's Denver number (15). I saw a ton of comments saying the Nugs should've never allowed Jokic to wear Carmelo's number and Carmelo is a better basketball player...

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14703581]Jokic just had TWENTY rebounds in the first half tonight. Currently has 27/24/8...all this in only 32 minutes.

[B]Seriously there has never been a player like Jokic. He is just as unique as a Lebron or Giannis. Really hope this dude gets a ring one day because he is easily one of the best offensive players ever. Basically a Dirk/Bird hybrid.[/B][/QUOTE]

Bolded

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14772137]Jokic is GOATED. Best offensive player in the league for me and easily one of the best all time.

Dude has been a superstar every playoff run unlike the Sixers center.[/QUOTE]

:lol

I don't have a single wrong post in this thread.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14798546][B]God damn I made so many good posts in this thread.[/B] Bolding this one for sure since I called it early. So many Jokic haters/casuals literally JUST realized this postseason Jokic took Carmelo's Denver number (15). I saw a ton of comments saying the Nugs should've never allowed Jokic to wear Carmelo's number and Carmelo is a better basketball player...[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: This is 3ball level douchiness, you should be better than that. And I'd like to see these comments of people in 2023 claiming Melo is better than Jokic, post links/screenshots of this.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14798551]:oldlol: This is 3ball level douchiness, you should be better than that. And I'd like to see these comments of people in 2023 claiming Melo is better than Jokic, post links/screenshots of this.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I agree it's douchiness but I've been on the Jokic bandwagon since the bubble.

Also should've been more clear, I saw a lot of people claiming the Nuggets version of Melo is better than Jokic. Come on..you know what crowd is saying this (MuH mIdRaNgE, PuRe HoOpEr crowd).

The GOAT just continuing to do GOAT things.

This will Jokic's 5th year in a row (assuming healthy) that he has been the best player in the league. How many other players can say that?

Kareem can say that.

MJ can say that.

Lebron can say it.

MJ (88-93): 30.3 PER, 59.3 TS%, .288 WS/48, 11.2 BPM (8.5 OBPM, 2.8 DBPM)

Jokic (20-25): 31.6, 66.3 TS%, .301 WS/48, 13 BPM (9 OBPM, 4 DBPM)

GoatJokic straight raw-dogging MJ

So, more than three years after my OP, Jokic is still continuing his GOAT-level peak.

Honestly just removing accolades, he's already one of the 10 best players of all time, probably top 5 honestly.

I'd take him over Bird and Magic any day of the week.

When I wake up every morning and have my morning coffee, I enter a deep silence, a meditation where I ponder on how in this infinite universe Stronglurk was able to enlighten us all with the knowledge of Jokic being an all time great basketball player in late 2023.

At the time young Nikola was just a boy, and to think he'd ever rise to the heights OP predicted is just... incredible. Nostradamus type stuff. Remarkable genius on a level rarely seen.

[QUOTE=tpols;14971460]When I wake up every morning and have my morning coffee, I enter a deep silence, a meditation where I ponder on how in this infinite universe Stronglurk was able to enlighten us all with the knowledge of Jokic being an all time great basketball player in late 2023.

At the time young Nikola was just a boy, and to think he'd ever rise to the heights OP predicted is just... incredible. Nostradamus type stuff. Remarkable genius on a level rarely seen.[/QUOTE]

Late 2023? The OP is December 2022 and no one was calling him GOAT-level except me. This is B4 his 2023 GOAT-ring and literally fans and sports media were still shitting on Jokic and claiming he was overrated and guys like Embiid were superior :roll:

[QUOTE=tpols;14971460]When I wake up every morning and have my morning coffee, I enter a deep silence, a meditation where I ponder on how in this infinite universe Stronglurk was able to enlighten us all with the knowledge of Jokic being an all time great basketball player in late 2023.

At the time young Nikola was just a boy, and to think he'd ever rise to the heights OP predicted is just... incredible. Nostradamus type stuff. Remarkable genius on a level rarely seen.[/QUOTE]
You have to give him credit, Jokic had only been a multiple MVP with GOAT tier production/metrics for several years, and OP called it. He will, justifiably, continue to bump his threads to remind the board of his profound wisdom of the game, and I just hope the posters on here take advantage by basking in the basketball acumen. It's honestly a wonderful thing, and I frankly don't appreciate the slighted sarcasm in your post.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14971466]You have to give him credit, Jokic had only been a multiple MVP with GOAT tier production/metrics for several years, and OP called it. He will, justifiably, continue to bump his threads to remind the board of his profound wisdom of the game, and I just hope the posters on here take advantage by basking in the basketball acumen. It's honestly a wonderful thing, and I frankly don't appreciate the slighted sarcasm in your post.[/QUOTE]

You misunderstand. Jokic WAS underrated when I made this thread. Go read through the pages.

This was before Jok won a ring and there were still SO many people hating on him in the media and fanbase. Many fans and media members DID NOT think Jokic deserved both MVPs, despite him playing at a GOAT level.

We even saw the consequences of this when Embiid literally won a pity-MVP. That PROVED my entire premise correct.

Giannis won back-to-back MVPS, but no one had him GOAT-level because he simply isn't. Jokic actually DESERVED to be looked at as GOAT-level but people hated on him because he is a foreign player, "unathletic", and he went against all the "celebrity" culture that exists in the NBA.