Jokic is starting his GOAT run now

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;14901865]The reason Jordan is so highly regarded is because he brought 6 rings to a nothing franchise. Not just 6, but with his individual dominance up until that point he was being compared to Bird and Magic after his first championship and had goat talks in 92/93. What makes Jokic so different that he needs 5 to even enter top 5 talks? He brought a title to a historically bad franchise, all his objective(so hateproof) metrics are topping all time levels- even defensive metrics, and he’s proving himself to be a top 5 if not goat court mapper of all time. He never even had a great squad. How many teams wanted Aaron Gordon? KCP was a scapegoat in LA. Murray is good, but he isn’t some all time sidekick. There’s nothing that makes him better than, say, Maxey if we compare them side by side. Jokic makes these guys all look like winners. He doesn’t have a Kobe, Pippen, McHale, KAJ etc… in a league where teams are more stacked than ever. If he wins this year in his usual fashion he is top 10 and it’s not ridiculous to put him top 5 if he wins 3.[/QUOTE]

A lot of teammates get overrated next to all time great players but I don't know if Jamal Murray is one of them at this point. His WCF and overall playoff run last year was better than anything Pippen ever produced in a playoff run.

14 more wins go to for GOAT Jokic.

First 2 playoff games - 30/16/9 with 2 steals on 68.7 TS% :lol

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14901843]You shouldn't rely on championships to this great an extent to rank players.[/QUOTE]

Greatness really is determined based on how you distinguish yourself from your contemporaries...

With that said 2 rings at his mid-career point he shouldn't be ranked in the top 40 let alone top 10-15.

We hype up contemporary players way to much

Pts - 14,139
Rb - 7,249
As - 4,667

This is a very good stat line...Luka is going to pass Joker in assists next year and points in maybe two years

[QUOTE=John8204;14902835]Greatness really is determined based on how you distinguish yourself from your contemporaries...

With that said 2 rings at his mid-career point he shouldn't be ranked in the top 40 let alone top 10-15.

We hype up contemporary players way to much

Pts - 14,139
Rb - 7,249
As - 4,667

This is a very good stat line...Luka is going to pass Joker in assists next year and points in maybe two years[/QUOTE]

:roll:

You gotta troll better than this.

Another W for Jokic, 24/15/9 on 74.6 TS%.

13 W's to go.

[QUOTE=John8204;14902835]Greatness really is determined based on how you distinguish yourself from your contemporaries...

With that said 2 rings at his mid-career point he shouldn't be ranked in the top 40 let alone top 10-15.

We hype up contemporary players way to much

Pts - 14,139
Rb - 7,249
As - 4,667

This is a very good stat line...Luka is going to pass Joker in assists next year and points in maybe two years[/QUOTE]
I admit you do an excellent deadpan delivery, but your trolling is slipping of late. You need to make it more believable going forward.

Lebron's getting sent to retirement not being able to beat Jokic.

This guy is STILL so underrated by everyone.

Crazy how some random 2nd round pick from Serbia is on pace to be a top 10 GOAT after this season if he pulls off another championship.

He probably moves into my top 5 all time if he wins this year what he's doing is unbelievable

He's arguably playing at a higher level than both peak LeBron and MJ

[QUOTE=Manny98;14903827]He probably moves into my top 5 all time if he wins this year what he's doing is unbelievable

[B]He's arguably playing at a higher level than both peak LeBron and MJ[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree that he is up there on offense with MJ and Lebron, but you can't say (yet) that he is ABOVE peak MJ and Lebron.

Peak MJ and peak Lebron did not get to play in this era/format of basketball.

I know I have been hyping Jokic up constantly since 2021, but I still do admit that Jokic (and others) are peaking in the easiest offensive format in the 3 point era. So that does need to factor into all time comparisons.

I have made threads that basketball after 2020 really should be considered a "new" era and can't be compared to previous eras, but either way, Jokic is going to be the GOAT of this era and I think end up top 10 all time (and maybe top 6 all time).

It's still kinda crazy to me what old Dwight did to Jokic.

[URL="https://youtube.com/shorts/PdcI_DBgKkE?si=ZHLMMqLKDTBrQDEP"]https://youtube.com/shorts/PdcI_DBgKkE?si=ZHLMMqLKDTBrQDEP[/URL]

[QUOTE=tpols;14903966]It's still kinda crazy to me what old Dwight did to Jokic.

[URL="https://youtube.com/shorts/PdcI_DBgKkE?si=ZHLMMqLKDTBrQDEP"]https://youtube.com/shorts/PdcI_DBgKkE?si=ZHLMMqLKDTBrQDEP[/URL][/QUOTE]

I wonder if he can still do that against this version of Jokic? Back then it was right before MVP lvl Jokic. It wasn't just Howard either. It was JaVale McGee too coming off the bench.

But even 2021, I think Ayton gave Jokic troubles too. Ever since 22, Jokic been on another lvl.

[QUOTE=Manny98;14903827]

He's arguably playing at a higher level than both peak LeBron and MJ[/QUOTE]

What would his ring count look like if peak LeBron or MJ were in the league though?

Another monster game for Jokic.

29/15/10 on super high efficiency so far in the playoffs :lol

Nope.

Grand opening, grand closing.

Yikes.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14778934]The league isn't stacked with any teams these last few years. A lot of really good teams, but each year is relatively open compared to the past few decades.

As long as Jokic/Murray are healthy, they should be title favorites.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif[/IMG]

I was wrong, will admit it. I did preface that Jamal Murray needed to be healthy, and he clearly wasn't, and the Nuggets lack of depth caught up with them.

That's the tough part regarding the GOAT criteria. It requires winning, which ultimately requires some good luck. Jokic is still the best player in the league though. Will be interesting to see if Denver can retool a bit next year.

Jokic could never win another playoff game in his life and his 3 MVP, 1 title + 1 FMVP four year stretch is still one of the goat stretches ever. It cemented himself as the clear best player if his era.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14912885]Jokic could never win another playoff game in his life and his 3 MVP, 1 title + 1 FMVP four year stretch is still one of the goat stretches ever. It cemented himself as the clear best player if his era.[/QUOTE]

An "era" isn't a 4 year run.

His era of players. The ones he has competed with since entering his prime or near it that are within his age range.

He has more MVPs than anyone during that time and as many titles. His contemporaries be would be competing with are Giannis, Embiid... Luka and Tatum if you wanted to stretch it age wise. Before them it was the LBJ and Curry era. Before them Kobe, Shaq and Duncan.

Jokic has separated himself from his peers so far. Tatum or Luka could get one this year, but they will still pale in comparison overall to Jokic resume.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14913046]His era of players. The ones he has competed with since entering his prime or near it that are within his age range.

He has more MVPs than anyone during that time and as many titles. His contemporaries be would be competing with are Giannis, Embiid... Luka and Tatum if you wanted to stretch it age wise. Before them it was the LBJ and Curry era. Before them Kobe, Shaq and Duncan.

Jokic has separated himself from his peers so far. Tatum or Luka could get one this year, but they will still pale in comparison overall to Jokic resume.[/QUOTE]

One of them is 4 years younger, the other is 3 years. I'd say his comparisons are Giannis and Embiid, not the younger guys in their mid 20s.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14913046]His era of players. The ones he has competed with since entering his prime or near it that are within his age range.

[B]He has more MVPs than anyone during that tim[/B]e and as many titles. His contemporaries be would be competing with are Giannis, Embiid... Luka and Tatum if you wanted to stretch it age wise. Before them it was the LBJ and Curry era. Before them Kobe, Shaq and Duncan.

Jokic has separated himself from his peers so far. Tatum or Luka could get one this year, but they will still pale in comparison overall to Jokic resume.[/QUOTE]

By this logic Nash has more MVPs than most of the guys in his "era". Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, Wade, etc. Nobody considers him better than any of those guys in all- time rankings.

My point is not to trash Jokic. It's simply to call out that he needs more to cement himself. The notion that if he retired today he'd be in anyone's top 10 list is totally absurd

[QUOTE=beasted;14913227]By this logic Nash has more MVPs than most of the guys in his "era". Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, Wade, etc. Nobody considers him better than any of those guys in all- time rankings.[/QUOTE]

The only thing Nash has over Kobe on his resume would be the extra MVP. In it's totality, Kobe vs Nash is a non conversation. 5 titles, two as the man vs zero finals appearances for Nash. Way more All NBA teams, more all defensive, more FMVP.

Jokic doesn't just have 3 MVPs, he has the entire package besides All Defensive selections. Giannis resume is the only one that stacks up comparatively. We will see how the back half of their careers go to see who separates from the pack. Or maybe they don't.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14913368]The only thing Nash has over Kobe on his resume would be the extra MVP. In it's totality, Kobe vs Nash is a non conversation. 5 titles, two as the man vs zero finals appearances for Nash. Way more All NBA teams, more all defensive, more FMVP.

Jokic doesn't just have 3 MVPs, he has the entire package besides All Defensive selections. Giannis resume is the only one that stacks up comparatively. We will see how the back half of their careers go to see who separates from the pack. Or maybe they don't.[/QUOTE]
Your reply seems to support my point that multiple MVPs in a short period don't define a career. If you're agreeing, then we are saying the same thing which is that Jokic has a great foundation, but more work needs to be done to say he's dominated his era.