The 2011-2014 Heat don't seem stacked anymore

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14920346]Not a single of them averaged 20 ppg, but you went ahead and mentioned a 37 year old Ray Allen who averaged like 11 PPG. :oldlol:

He was obviously a key contributor, but the way you went and said Miami had 4 hall of famers like Ray Allen was in his prime is pretty shameless.

And no, it leaves us at 3.[/QUOTE]
Did you look up that 1989 Piston team? When I say none of them averaged 20 I am talking about the whole team. Of course you didn't know that, you likely weren't even alive in 1989. You just desperately sought out some kind of argument. Sorry but you don't have one.

Jrue Holiday has made the allstar game twice and has one ring. I hope he soon has two but currently Bballreference says his career is similar career to Nick Van Exel and Lou Williams. That's not a HoF lock.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920350]Did you look up that 1989 Piston team? When I say none of them averaged 20 I am talking about the whole team. Of course you didn't know that, you likely weren't even alive in 1989. You just desperately sought out some kind of argument. Sorry but you don't have one.

Jrue Holiday has made the allstar game twice and has one ring. I hope he soon has two but currently Bballreference says his career is similar career to Nick Van Exel and Lou Williams. That's not a HoF lock.[/QUOTE]


And that's where perception deviates from reality. Jrue has a way higher impact on the game because he's 100x the defender lou will or nick van exel were. Jrue has outplayed Tatum in the Finals so far.

You're acting a straight fool downplaying his impact. But that's not surprising.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920350][B]Did you look up that 1989 Piston team? When I say none of them averaged 20 I am talking about the whole team.[/B] Of course you didn't know that, you likely weren't even alive in 1989. You just desperately sought out some kind of argument. Sorry but you don't have one.

Jrue Holiday has made the allstar game twice and has one ring. I hope he soon has two but currently Bballreference says his career is similar career to Nick Van Exel and Lou Williams. That's not a HoF lock.[/QUOTE]

Yea, no shit. Did you not read my post when I specifically mentioned they were not "top heavy", but depth was off the charts.

Isiah & Aguirre could have easily averaged 20 if they played on a bad team. Mark Aguirre was literally averaging 22 PPG on the Mavs in 1989 before he got traded to Detroit mid-season.

I'm a historian to this game, watched a shit ton of 80's games, look at my username.

RMWG now putting Holiday on the same tier as Nick Van Exel & Lou Williams.

Disgraceful. :oldlol:

One of my other main points in the OP is that Lebron being so good is really what made the Heat seem so stacked.

They had top heavy talent in 2011 and 2012, but also had series weaknesses (These modern Celtics have none on off/def AND they have the advantage of being fully analytics driven which is a better format/style of play than what teams did 15 years ago).

2013 Heat were the most complete version, 2014 was for sure on their last legs.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14920357]Yea, no shit. Did you not read my post when I specifically mentioned they were not "top heavy", but depth was off the charts.

Isiah & Aguirre could have easily averaged 20 if they played on a bad team. Mark Aguirre was literally averaging 22 PPG on the Mavs in 1989 before he got traded to Detroit mid-season.

I'm a historian to this game, watched a shit ton of 80's games, look at my username.[/QUOTE]
If you really knew NBA history you wouldn't be calling a team without a single 20ppg scorer stacked. Moving on.

HEAT was a SUPER team.
CAVS was a SUPER team.
BROOKLYN was a SUPER team.

Magics LAL were STACKED team.
Birds CELTICS were STACKED team.

SUPER teams have COLLUDED and atleast 3 "FRANCHISE" players (LeBron, Bosh, Wade; Lebron, Kyrie, Love)

Magics LAL = Magic + Worthy only; old Kareem NOT franchise anymore. a contender cannot be built around Old Kareem)
Bird's Celtics = Bird + McHale; Chief was not talented enough to be a franchise and contender cannot be built around him)

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920364]If you really knew NBA history you wouldn't be calling a team without a single 20ppg scorer stacked. Moving on.[/QUOTE]

So I'm guessing some of those 60's Celtics teams that had like 7 hall of famers, but no 20 PPG players like their '63 & '64 teams were not stacked.

Moving on.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920364]If you really knew NBA history you wouldn't be calling a team without a single 20ppg scorer stacked. Moving on.[/QUOTE]

Respectfully, I must disagree. Those Pistons teams were absolutely stacked. Because they didn't have a 20 PPG scorer wasn't indicative of their offense, especially when in '88 and '89, they were 6th and 7th in ORTG.

As 1987 mentioned, guys like Aguirre could score, but obviously his role and the style of play changed given that he wasn't on Dallas anymore.

Having said that, I do agree with you that Miami was stacked. To look at just Wade/Bosh/LeBron as being the only "stacked" players would be incorrect, especially when 1987 is minimizing Ray Allen's role (let alone Battier, Chalmers, or Birdman).

[QUOTE=tpols;14920355]And that's where perception deviates from reality. Jrue has a way higher impact on the game because he's 100x the defender lou will or nick van exel were. Jrue has outplayed Tatum in the Finals so far.

You're acting a straight fool downplaying his impact. But that's not surprising.[/QUOTE]
I am quoting his basketball reference score, and the players that site said his score was similar to. 2-time All-Star is not a lock for the Hall. Are you ever going to write something intelligent? You just don't seem to be an adult man.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14920369]Respectfully, I must disagree. Those Pistons teams were absolutely stacked. Because they didn't have a 20 PPG scorer wasn't indicative of their offense, especially when in '88 and '89, they were 6th and 7th in ORTG.

As 1987 mentioned, guys like Aguirre could score, but obviously his role and the style of play changed given that he wasn't on Dallas anymore.

Having said that, I do agree with you that Miami was stacked. To look at just Wade/Bosh/LeBron as being the only "stacked" players would be incorrect, especially when 1987 is minimizing Ray Allen's role (let alone Battier, Chalmers, or Birdman).[/QUOTE]

Obviously Miami was stacked, the 2013 Heat team was the best team LeBron has ever played on, my only argument here is that this Boston team has more talent.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14920366]So I'm guessing some of those 60's Celtics teams that had like 7 hall of famers, but no 20 PPG players like their '63 & '64 teams were not stacked.

Moving on.[/QUOTE]
If you win 6+ championships you have a good shot at the hall regardless of statistics.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920375]If you win 6+ championships you have a good shot at the hall regardless of statistics.[/QUOTE]

So those 60's Celtics teams were not stacked, is that what you are telling me?

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14920369]Respectfully, I must disagree. Those Pistons teams were absolutely stacked. Because they didn't have a 20 PPG scorer wasn't indicative of their offense, especially when in '88 and '89, they were 6th and 7th in ORTG.

As 1987 mentioned, guys like Aguirre could score, but obviously his role and the style of play changed given that he wasn't on Dallas anymore.

Having said that, I do agree with you that Miami was stacked. To look at just Wade/Bosh/LeBron as being the only "stacked" players would be incorrect, especially when 1987 is minimizing Ray Allen's role (let alone Battier, Chalmers, or Birdman).[/QUOTE]
That Piston team was one of the 10 most talented of all time? Because that's what 1987 said.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14920376]So those 60's Celtics teams were not stacked, is that what you are telling me?[/QUOTE]They were but some of the guys from those Celtic teams that made the Hall would not have made it if they didn't win all of those championships.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920377]That Piston team was one of the 10 most talented of all time? Because that's what 1987 said.[/QUOTE]

I said they were chosen as a top 10 team in history by the NBA during its 50th anniversary.
[url]https://www.nba.com/history/nba-at-50/top-10-teams[/url]

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920379][B]They were[/B] but some of the guys from those Celtic teams that made the Hall would not have made it if they didn't win all of those championships.[/QUOTE]

Well, thanks for clearing that up, despite it contradicting what you just said a few minutes ago.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920364]If you really knew NBA history you wouldn't be calling a team without a single 20ppg scorer stacked. Moving on.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14920380]I said they were chosen as a top 10 team in history by the NBA during its 50th anniversary.
[URL]https://www.nba.com/history/nba-at-50/top-10-teams[/URL][/QUOTE]
So are you saying that that was not an all-time stacked team? Because if so why would you bring them up?

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920382]So are you saying that that was not an all-time stacked team? Because if so why would you bring them up?[/QUOTE]

I called them stacked, but never said they were "top 10 stacked team of all time". There is a difference.

But you could probably make an argument that they are top 10 in terms of stacked. I would for sure put them on the list of we are talking depth, where the Pistons fall short is that they don't have that bonifed superstar.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920372]I am quoting his basketball reference score, and the players that site said his score was similar to. 2-time All-Star is not a lock for the Hall. Are you ever going to write something intelligent? You just don't seem to be an adult man.[/QUOTE]

What sort of shitty and lazy analysis is this? lmao

This is embarrassing

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14920373]Obviously Miami was stacked, the 2013 Heat team was the best team LeBron has ever played on, my only argument here is that this Boston team has more talent.[/QUOTE]

This is where the eras come into play. Boston's depth looks a lot fancier on paper because of the scoring and spacing that this era provides. The league was very different in 2011 or 2012. Guaranteed Ray Allen, even at 37 years old, in today's game would be a serious weapon. He put up 10 PPG on 64% TS% in the 2 finals appearances against an elite defense.

What's he doing against Dallas in 2024? Or against any of the teams Boston faced in the first three rounds?

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14920386]This is where the eras come into play. Boston's depth looks a lot fancier on paper because of the scoring and spacing that this era provides. The league was very different in 2011 or 2012. Guaranteed Ray Allen, even at 37 years old, in today's game would be a serious weapon. He put up 10 PPG on 64% TS% in the 2 finals appearances against an elite defense.

What's he doing against Dallas in 2024? Or against any of the teams Boston faced in the first three rounds?[/QUOTE]
His shooting would actually be less notable in today’s league. Not saying he’d be worse just that elite shooting is way more common now.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14920386]This is where the eras come into play. Boston's depth looks a lot fancier on paper because of the scoring and spacing that this era provides. The league was very different in 2011 or 2012. Guaranteed Ray Allen, even at 37 years old, in today's game would be a serious weapon. [B]He put up 10 PPG [/B]on 64% TS% in the 2 finals appearances against an elite defense.

What's he doing against Dallas in 2024? Or against any of the teams Boston faced in the first three rounds?[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExeGtteXBveHZjenZ1ejV2bmtpYnE0Zm9zNzFnaTJvOGE5MmxweGEyayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/UVAasrbF1ly0nx0xQi/giphy.webp[/IMG]

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14920381]Well, thanks for clearing that up, despite it contradicting what you just said a few minutes ago.



:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
If you really knew basketball history you would know that various Celtics averaged 20+ throughout various years in the 60s and the standards were different in general. A guy could shoot in the low 40%s, average in bthe teens, and be considered a good scorer. That was a different era.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14920390][IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExeGtteXBveHZjenZ1ejV2bmtpYnE0Zm9zNzFnaTJvOGE5MmxweGEyayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/UVAasrbF1ly0nx0xQi/giphy.webp[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Yea, focus on the 10 PPG while ignoring the 64% TS% (including 48% from 3).

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920391]If you really knew basketball history you would know that various Celtics averaged 20+ throughout various years .[/QUOTE]

So did the ‘89 Pistons. Seriously, you are making a complete fool of yourself here and everyone sees it.

2011 was top heavy and not stacked. But after that they definitely were

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14920409]So did the ‘89 Pistons. Seriously, you are making a complete fool of yourself here and everyone sees it.[/QUOTE]
So you are saying that they are all-time stacked now? Made up your mind?

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920412]So you are saying that they are all-time stacked now? Made up your mind?[/QUOTE]
I already stated my position.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14920402]Yea, focus on the 10 PPG while ignoring the 64% TS% (including 48% from 3).[/QUOTE]

ray allen isnt playing much due to his defense. he at that stage in his career isnt on the same tier as jrue white etc. Someone like current kcp is likely better due to defense even accounting for era I think.

[QUOTE=iamgine;14920291]2012 Heat if today would be something like:

Jokic
Siakam
Sam Hauser
SGA
Tyus Jones[/QUOTE]

It's actually much better than this as Siakam was never 4th in the NBA in PER so maybe something like (also building it like the heat instead of strictly PER):

Derrick Jones Jr (Battier/Haslem)
Brow or Bron (Bosh)
Giannis (2012 Bron)
Shai (Wade)
Jrue Holiday or maybe Pat Bev (Chalmers)

That's pretty fcking stacked if you ask me.

[QUOTE=Dbrog;14920466]It's actually much better than this as Siakam was never 4th in the NBA in PER so maybe something like (also building it like the heat instead of strictly PER):

Derrick Jones Jr (Battier/Haslem)
Brow or Bron (Bosh)
Giannis (2012 Bron)
Shai (Wade)
Jrue Holiday or maybe Pat Bev (Chalmers)

That's pretty fcking stacked if you ask me.[/QUOTE]
As terrible as the Bosh one is, claiming Chalmers is the equivalent of Jrue is indefensibly bad.

[QUOTE=Dbrog;14920466]It's actually much better than this as Siakam was never 4th in the NBA in PER so maybe something like (also building it like the heat instead of strictly PER):

Derrick Jones Jr (Battier/Haslem)
Brow or Bron (Bosh)
Giannis (2012 Bron)
Shai (Wade)
Jrue Holiday or maybe Pat Bev (Chalmers)

That's pretty fcking stacked if you ask me.[/QUOTE]
Hassan Whiteside was 7th in PER in 2016 lol. He had Wade and Bosh as teammates too. Using that stat in 2024 is crazy.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14920468]As ridiculous as the Bosh one is, claiming Chalmers is the equivalent of Jrue is indefensibly bad.[/QUOTE]
Even funnier is he apparently thinks Jrue and Pat Bev are similar players despite them being easily comparable due to both being in the league rn. Also despite how "stacked" that team is they wouldn't win shit in 2024. LeBron is arguably the best 3PT shooter on that team, completely ass spacing. They'd go 82-0 in 1995 though.

[QUOTE=Dbrog;14920466]It's actually much better than this as Siakam was never 4th in the NBA in PER so maybe something like (also building it like the heat instead of strictly PER):

Derrick Jones Jr (Battier/Haslem)
Brow or Bron (Bosh)
Giannis (2012 Bron)
Shai (Wade)
Jrue Holiday or maybe Pat Bev (Chalmers)

That's pretty fcking stacked if you ask me.[/QUOTE]

i have epm for those years. Bosh was like a +3 in 2010 94th percentile. Thats good but more like current lauri markkanen or chet holmgren instead of AD. Tpols was right about chalmers but he isnt jrue holiday, maybe more deanthony melton. if you're looking at 12 team then wade isnt on shai's lvl. more like mitchell/ant.

Chet
Giannis
Lu Dort
mitchell
Deanthony melton

Yea likely winning a title the 12/13 heat are all time teams for a reason.

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14920475]i have epm for those years. Bosh was like a +3 in 2010 94th percentile. Thats good but more like current lauri markkanen or chet holmgren instead of AD. Tpols was right about chalmers but he isnt jrue holiday, maybe more deanthony melton. if you're looking at 12 team then wade isnt on shai's lvl. more like mitchell/ant.

[B]Chet
Giannis
Lu Dort
mitchell
Deanthony melton [/B]

Yea likely winning a title the 12/13 heat are all time teams for a reason.[/QUOTE]
Man that is pretty perfect for 12/13 Heat, nicely done. Now I want to see that team :lol


Still mad Chalmers tore his achilles and was trash after that :( Such a good role player before that, he would have lasted a while.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14920477]Man that is pretty perfect for 12/13 Heat, nicely done. Now I want to see that team :lol


Still mad Chalmers tore his achilles and was trash after that :( Such a good role player before that, he would have lasted a while.[/QUOTE]

i see them winning a title if you replace giannis with prime bron(there's a gap there). Boston is so good they stack up with the version with giannis however. This team is more talented than boston but has more holes.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14920471]Hassan Whiteside was 7th in PER in 2016 lol. He had Wade and Bosh as teammates too. Using that stat in 2024 is crazy.[/QUOTE]

I don't typically even like PER but I see it constantly posted on here. My post is in line with that. Siakam is a far stranger comparison to Bosh as he was never leading the Raptors anywhere or leading the league in double doubles, etc etc. Your Jokic to Bron comparison is very confusing too as they are nothing like each other.

Side note: obviously oldman Jrue is still better than Bev but Chalmers was pretty similar back then as he was a good defender who could occasionally get hot on offense. I don't really see the stretch here

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14920475]i have epm for those years. Bosh was like a +3 in 2010 94th percentile. Thats good but more like current lauri markkanen or chet holmgren instead of AD. Tpols was right about chalmers but he isnt jrue holiday, maybe more deanthony melton. if you're looking at 12 team then wade isnt on shai's lvl. more like mitchell/ant.

Chet
Giannis
Lu Dort
mitchell
Deanthony melton

Yea likely winning a title the 12/13 heat are all time teams for a reason.[/QUOTE]

Yup that's a solid comparison, though I would lean more towards Ant than Mitchell as Mitchell is truly awful on defense

[QUOTE=Dbrog;14920491]Yup that's a solid comparison, though I would lean more towards Ant than Mitchell as Mitchell is truly awful on defense[/QUOTE]

sure but I kinda balanced out there since chet is better defender than bosh. Also think mitchell is still a little better than ant overall and rather be generous with the comparisons there. Tbf no holes on defense if you put in ant but I think giannis needs the extra help on offense. 2012 lebron wouldnt