How do you go about ranking Kobe Bryant?

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871172]Wait I'm confused.

Before it was [B]"Lebron is better because of efficiency"[/B].

Then when that logic was turned on it's head, the argument transformed into [B]"Lebron is better because of TS%"[/B]

And now that THAT logic got turned on it's head, the argument has transformed yet again. Now it's [B]"Lebron is better because I've seen him ranked higher on other people's lists...[/B]"

[IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/J2DYCDA15pTau86IGr/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9520jazqxtz6a9ob7n3m4erjib6vgf37y93hdw11a64&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g[/IMG]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

If you really wanna break down skill for skill, Kobe is a far better one on one player and he's also better at playing off the ball. So miss me with all that fake advanced bullshit.

I respect Lebron as one of the all time great players, but his fans are the absolute worst and really don't know about dikk about dikk. It's really just stats stats stats with you guys.

It's close but give me Mamba all day.[/QUOTE]

:roll:

Keep in mind, you're arguing with someone who doesn't know what an advanced stat is.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871172]Wait I'm confused.

Before it was [B]"Lebron is better because of efficiency"[/B].

Then when that logic was turned on it's head, the argument transformed into [B]"Lebron is better because of TS%"[/B][/QUOTE]

Did you miss my first post in this thread?

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14870831]As someone who watched Kobe for his entire prime years, this post is just pure comedy. :oldlol:

The only thing he has a case for is being one of the greatest scorers to ever step on the court, at his peak, he was an animal of a scorer, actually had more range on his shot than MJ, also a better ball-handler, but he never really reached MJ's athletic ability and was a poor shot selector at times.

The knock on Kobe is that besides scoring, he didn't really provide much to other aspects of the game compared to other all-time greats like LeBron. He was actually a top tier defender during the 1st 3 peat, but by '03 up until he retired, his defense was nothing to right home about. He could man you up when he was serious, but he was often out of position and was even criticized by Phil Jackson for his lack of defense by 2004 or so. Him making a bunch of all-defensive teams was strictly a reputation award. It was a running joke among all fans. He wasn't really known for his passing, he was a capable passer for sure, but for the most part he was known as a "do it yourself" player and got some criticism for selfishness.

And what gets swept under the rug about Kobe is his performances in big games. He was flat out bad in game 7's, closeout games, and had some pretty underwhelming Finals, guys like MJ & LeBron blow him out of the water in those categories.[/QUOTE]

I clearly state his lack of versatility compared to LeBron.

Nice try though.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871167]Whether you like it or not, your whole "Kobe is in the GOAT convo" belief is a claim that isn't agreed upon by [B]most fans[/B].

[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777[/url][/QUOTE]


You may have Kobe as low as not even top 100 for all I care, but 'most fans' are nowhere near message boards. Basketball sites altogether have how many people discussing these things? 100,000 thousand world wide? I doubt it's even that much. Not even 0.1% of viewers following the sport on a quasi-regular basis are discussing it on forums like this one. You may say: okay, but we are 'serious' fans. Maybe. But whatever the critics say about a TV show, a movie, a book or an album, it is the general public that decides things in the end. Several hundred people on a given website is a fun community but that's it. If 'the majority of posters on a given site' is an argument and you want to use it, you have to accept x million votes on another website, too. And we know for a fact that most fans do have Kobe in their top 20. (Top 10, and a majority probably even in their top 5). You may try to exclude those votes as coming from 'morons' who do not 'follow the game' but we all can exclude whatever and whoever we want if we so please.

[QUOTE=Full Court;14871173]:roll:

Keep in mind, you're arguing with someone who doesn't know what an advanced stat is.[/QUOTE]

"plus-minus tracks down how many points a player has scored" - full court
:lol

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871177]Did you miss my first post in this thread?



I clearly state his lack of versatility compared to LeBron.

Nice try tough.[/QUOTE]

Oh wow he's versatile? Okay.. and? What about scoring versatility? Does that count?

Lebron's overall versatility might be a factor if you're comparing him to someone like Melo, but you're comparing him to Kobe. Kobe was an actual leader who also played great defense.

Lebron is a better passer than Kobe. Kobe is a better one on one player, better scorer, better leader, better free throw shooter... and far more dangerous with the ball in his hands at the end of a game.

Give me MAMBA.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871180]Oh wow he's versatile? Okay.. and? What about scoring versatility? Does that count?

Lebron's overall versatility might be a factor if you're comparing him to someone like Melo, but you're comparing him to Kobe. Kobe was an actual leader who also played great defense.

Lebron is a better passer than Kobe. Kobe is a better one on one player, better scorer, better leader, better free throw shooter... and far more dangerous with the ball in his hands at the end of a game.

Give me MAMBA.[/QUOTE]
If kobe was all that you say, then why did he end up his career only having one league mvp and two finals mvps? Just curious to know.

[QUOTE=Axe;14871183]If kobe was all that you say, then why did he end up his career only having one league mvp and two finals mvps? Just curious to know.[/QUOTE]

Look at this dogshit.

First it was made up advanced statistics. Now it's fake narrative driven media awards.

You Bronnies have ZERO shame. Next you're gonna ask how come Kobe doesn't have an in-season tournament trophy.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

LeBron obliterates Kobe in impact stats, he's quite literally factually better. They played their careers during a time when such things could be tracked, this isn't like comparing Elgin Baylor to John Havlicek, we actually have the data. Arguing against stats is stupid, literally every competent GM uses advanced stats and impact data to determine who they get. The reason guys like Billy Beane in the MLB and Darryl Morey in the NBA were able to get ahead of the rest of the field was because they were using advanced stats when the rest of the league was still using silly stuff like "killer instinct" or whatever buzzwords talking heads come up with. If anyone is curious what these stats are, EPM, LEBRON, RAPM, RPM, APM, PIPM. Pretty much all these stats rank MJ and LBJ as the two best ever since such data was tracked (mid 90s), which shouldn't be surprising to anyone.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871180]Oh wow he's versatile? Okay.. and? What about scoring versatility? Does that count?

Lebron's overall versatility might be a factor if you're comparing him to someone like Melo, but you're comparing him to Kobe. Kobe was an actual leader who also played great defense.

Lebron is a better passer than Kobe. Kobe is a better one on one player, better scorer, better leader, better free throw shooter... and far more dangerous with the ball in his hands at the end of a game.

Give me MAMBA.[/QUOTE]

KD is better one on one player, better scorer & free throw shooter than LeBron, yet nobody has him ranked ahead of him.

Better leader? We are talking about a guy who didn't speak to teammates because he felt superior (Ask Smush Parker)

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871184]Look at this dogshit.

First it was made up advanced statistics. Now it's fake narrative driven media awards.

You Bronnies have ZERO shame. Next you're gonna ask how come Kobe doesn't have an in-season tournament trophy.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Just answer the freaking question, you dolt. :confusedshrug:

Idc if you think he's the better player between the two. That question is related with regards to his actual all-time ranking.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14871185]LeBron obliterates Kobe in [B][SIZE=4]impact stats[/SIZE][/B], he's quite literally factually better. They played their careers during a time when such things could be tracked, this isn't like comparing Elgin Baylor to John Havlicek, we actually have [B][SIZE=4]the data[/SIZE][/B]. Arguing against[B][SIZE=4] stats[/SIZE][/B] is stupid, literally every competent GM[B][SIZE=4] uses advanced stats and impact data[/SIZE][/B] to determine who they get. The reason guys like Billy Beane in the MLB and Darryl Morey in the NBA were able to get ahead of the rest of the field was because they were using advanced stats when the rest of the league was still using silly stuff like "killer instinct" or whatever buzzwords talking heads come up with.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

The stat dork era ladies and gentlemen.

Sorry but you can't judge greatness using a calculator.

Bronnies down BAD in this thread. Just exposing themselves as casual fans.

[QUOTE=Axe;14871187]Just answer the freaking question, you dolt. :confusedshrug:

Idc if you think he's the better player between the two. That question is related with regards to his actual all-time ranking.[/QUOTE]

I think if you're using regular season MVP as a criteria to judge players you're a effing retard.

Happy?

[QUOTE=RRR3;14871185]LeBron obliterates Kobe in impact stats, he's quite literally factually better. They played their careers during a time when such things could be tracked, this isn't like comparing Elgin Baylor to John Havlicek, we actually have the data. Arguing against stats is stupid, literally every competent GM uses advanced stats and impact data to determine who they get. The reason guys like Billy Beane in the MLB and Darryl Morey in the NBA were able to get ahead of the rest of the field was because they were using advanced stats when the rest of the league was still using silly stuff like "killer instinct" or whatever buzzwords talking heads come up with.[/QUOTE]

And many GMs make sub-optimal decisions many times. I'm not getting into this Kobe vs. LeBron debate but basing literally everything on stats in basketball is not the way to go. The players themselves actually don't. They don't want teammates with the best advanced stats, they want teammates who can ball and who they can go to battle with.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871188]:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

The stat dork era ladies and gentlemen.

Sorry but you can't judge greatness using a calculator.

Bronnies down BAD in this thread. Just exposing themselves as casual fans.[/QUOTE]
You are the type of moron to argue Derek Jeter was better than Alex Rodriguez. I hate to break it to you, but all the best teams are run by "stat guys". Anyone who analyzes sports seriously relies heavily on stats. It's why Billy Beane was able to build a dominant roster with a pauper (relatively speaking) budget back when no one else was thinking outside the box.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871186]KD is better one on one player, better scorer & free throw shooter than LeBron, yet nobody has him ranked ahead of him.

Better leader? We are talking about a guy who didn't speak to teammates because he felt superior (Ask Smush Parker)[/QUOTE]

KD never had the heart. He's been soft his entire career. He's had his moments but for the most part he never knew when or how to take over. He only dominated when had the luxury of playing on a super team with multiple super weapons at his disposal. He was never as good as Bron or as dominant.

Watch the Redeem Team doc and then tell me who's the better leader between Kobe and Lebron. You tell me who was better at setting the tone and setting the example for their teammates.

Guy said SMUSH PARKER. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871190]And many GMs make sub-optimal decisions many times. I'm not getting into this Kobe vs. LeBron debate but basing literally everything on stats in basketball is not the way to go. The players themselves actually don't. They don't want teammates with the best advanced stats, they want teammates who can ball and who they can go to battle with.[/QUOTE]
The GMs who make bad decisions are the ones who don't rely heavily on data. Guys like Masai Ujiri, Pat Riley, Darryl Morey, Brad Stevens etc. rely heavily on an analytics department. Your other point would only make sense if people would rather play with Kobe than LeBron, but most people would prefer not to play with guys like MJ or Kobe because they're just impossible to deal with. LeBron can be corny and melodramatic, but you know he's not gonna literally assault you or not talk to you.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871194]KD never had the heart. He's been soft his entire career. He's had his moments but for the most part he never knew when or how to take over. He only dominated when had the luxury of playing on a super team with multiple super weapons at his disposal. He was never as good as Bron or as dominant.

Watch the Redeem Team doc and then tell me who's the better leader between Kobe and Lebron. You tell me who was better at setting the tone and setting the example for their teammates.

Guy said SMUSH PARKER. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
For someone who claims to be an independent thinker, it's funny how you're just regurgitating talking head nonsense in this thread while me and 1987 are using actual arguments.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14871193]You are the type of moron to argue Derek Jeter was better than Alex Rodriguez. I hate to break it to you, but all the best teams are run by "stat guys". Anyone who analyzes sports seriously relies heavily on stats. It's why Billy Beane was able to build a dominant roster with a pauper (relatively speaking) budget back when no one else was thinking outside the box.[/QUOTE]

That's funny because aside from one season the lasting image of A-Rod in the playoffs was usually him striking out.

If Jeter and A-Rod had switched roles, I'm almost positive that A-Rod wouldn't have had the same number of rings. Jeter was the spiritual leader and tone setter for the entire team. He actually came up big when it mattered.

You know nothing about sports. You're a stat dork. Log off.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871194]Guy said SMUSH PARKER. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

He was a teammate, no matter how bad a player is, as a teammate if I saw our best player shit and not talk to another player for "not being on his level", I would look at him different. At the end of the day, you guys are there for the same purpose, to battle together as a team and win. That right there isn't good for team morale.

Kobe was a good leader in the sense that he didn't let anyone slack off, but he was pretty distant from his teammates and was a known a-hole. This is the same guy who didn't invite any of his teammates to his wedding and cried wolf when none of his teammates backed him up when he went through the whole rape allegations stuff.

This dude legit just said Derek Jeter was better than A-Rod :roll:


You can't argue with that kinda stupidity. Jesus Christ. Never talk baseball again.


That is legit the stupidest shit I've read all day lmfao.







DEREK JETER over A-Rod :roll:







That's like ranking Donovan Mitchell over Wilt :yaohappy:

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871189]I think if you're using regular season MVP as a criteria to judge players you're a effing retard.

Happy?[/QUOTE]
So you still can't answer my question eh? What a doofus. :facepalm

And i never implied that it's the only thing that should be looked upon in terms of ranking them. Obviously there are a lot more and you need to know what they have if you're to compare them because that's one way you can differentiate these players in terms of where they would rank.

Bawler is the type of retard to say something like David Ortiz>Barry Bonds :roll:

ESPN NARRATIVES!!! CLUTCH JEAN!!!! DA WILL TO WIN!!!! MAMBA MENTALITY!

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871200]He was a teammate, no matter how bad a player is, as a teammate if I saw our best player shit and not talk to another player for "not being on his level", I would look at him different. At the end of the day, you guys are there for the same purpose, to battle together and win. That right there isn't good for team morale.

Kobe was a good leader in the sense that he didn't let anyone slack off, but he was pretty distant from his teammates and was a known a-hole. This is the same guy who didn't invite any of his teammates to his wedding and cried wolf when none of his teammates backed him when he went through the whole rape allegations stuff.[/QUOTE]

Kobe was a better leader because he led by example. He was the hardest worker on the floor at all times. Slacking off wasn't an option. Everyone knew their role.

Look at the way Lamar Odom talked about Kobe after he died. He talks about the guy as if he wasn't human. The way he admired and looked up to Kobe speaks volumes about his ability and his leadership.

Kobe won titles playing with Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, Andrew Bynum, etc.. notorious head cases. They all fell in line under Kobe.

Larry Bird said if you wanna have fun you play with Lebron, if you wanna win you play with Kobe.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871205]Kobe was a better leader because he led by example. He was the hardest worker on the floor at all times. Slacking off wasn't an option. Everyone knew their role.

Look at the way Lamar Odom talked about Kobe after he died. He talks about the guy as if he wasn't human. The way he admired and looked up to Kobe speaks volumes about his ability and his leadership.

Kobe won titles playing with Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, Andrew Bynum, etc.. notorious head cases. They all fell in line under Kobe.
[B]
Larry Bird said if you wanna have fun you play with Lebron, if you wanna win you play with Kobe.[/B][/QUOTE]
He said this before LeBron had won any rings. Now LeBron has won 4 rings as the best player to Kobe's 2 :yaohappy:

[QUOTE=RRR3;14871197]For someone who claims to be an independent thinker, it's funny how you're just regurgitating talking head nonsense in this thread while me and 1987 are using actual arguments.[/QUOTE]

Lmao I already dismantled all of those arguments.

Effiency = bogus argument

TS% = bogus argument

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871208]Lmao I already dismantled all of those arguments.

Effiency = bogus argument

TS% = bogus argument[/QUOTE]

Alot of your arguments are just feelings to be honest. Even your Kobe is more clutch claim is false when the data shows LeBron is the more clutch performer.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871209]Alot of your arguments are just feelings to be honest. Even your Kobe is more clutch claim is false when the data shows LeBron is the more clutch performer.[/QUOTE]

Uh oh... the stat dorks have more "data". Better watch out.

Funny how this "data" ceases to be relevant the moment it doesn't benefit your argument.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871208]Lmao I already dismantled all of those arguments.

Effiency = bogus argument

TS% = bogus argument[/QUOTE]
No one used TS% as the sole reason LeBron is better, you are creating a straw man like you always do because you’re too dim to understand the argument. LeBron better is because he’s more impactful, this is verifiable with impact data. He’s also won twice as much as the best player on his team so even the winning argument doesn’t work.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871211]Uh oh... the stat dorks have more "data". Better watch out.

Funny how this "data" ceases to be relevant the moment it doesn't benefit your argument.[/QUOTE]
There legitimately isn’t any data that says Kobe is better at basketball than LeBron. What are you even talking about?

oh boy, you Kobe and Lebron fans

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871211]Uh oh... the stat dorks have more "data". Better watch out.

Funny how this "data" ceases to be relevant the moment it doesn't benefit your argument.[/QUOTE]

"Killer instinct"
"Better one on one"
"More clutch"

Literal arguments a teenager would make.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871217]"Killer instinct"
"Better one on one"
"More clutch"

Literal arguments a teenager would make.[/QUOTE]
He really needs to watch Moneyball. The “stat guys” won a very long time ago. In every sport.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14871195]The GMs who make bad decisions are the ones who don't rely heavily on data. Guys like Masai Ujiri, Pat Riley, Darryl Morey, Brad Stevens etc. rely heavily on an analytics department. Your other point would only make sense if people would rather play with Kobe than LeBron, but most people would prefer not to play with guys like MJ or Kobe because they're just impossible to deal with. LeBron can be corny and melodramatic, but you know he's not gonna literally assault you or not talk to you.[/QUOTE]

In reality, most people were absolutely okay to play with all these guys. You will find a player or two who says bad things about either of them after having played together but that's it. People were okay to play with Jordan. With Kobe. And are okay to play with LeBron.

As for the relying on analytics part, it sure has value. I see many things on the court each game though that are not going into any stat. And if I can see that on TV, there is a lot more to it with your teammate on and off the floor.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14871213]There legitimately isn’t any data that says Kobe is better at basketball than LeBron. What are you even talking about?[/QUOTE]

Hmm, maybe I will invent a statistic like you guys.

[B]Kobe[/B] - 5 championships in 20 seasons
[B]Lebron[/B] - 4 championships in 21 seasons

I will call this stat [B]"True Rings Percentage"[/B]

And I even did you a favor by including the 2020 Disney invitiational, which everyone knows isn't a real championship. :oldlol:

Mind you Kobe only played with two HOFers and not at the same time. Lebron played with SEVERAL different HOFers at the same time.

I don't know 3tard, looks like the data favors Mamba.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871217]"Killer instinct"
"Better one on one"
"More clutch"

Literal arguments a teenager would make.[/QUOTE]

Funny considering that some of the game's greatest players, analysts and coaches have made the exact same arguments.

Bronnies are down BAD.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871220]Hmm, maybe I will invent a statistic like you guys.

[B]Kobe[/B] - 5 championships in 20 seasons
[B]Lebron[/B] - 4 championships in 21 seasons

I will call this stat [B]"True Rings Percentage"[/B]

And I even did you a favor by including the 2020 Disney invitiational, which everyone knows isn't a real championship. :oldlol:

Mind you Kobe only played with two HOFers and not at the same time. Lebron played with SEVERAL different HOFers at the same time.

I don't know 3tard, looks like the data favors Mamba.[/QUOTE]

[video=youtube;x5PDgv5y-S0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5PDgv5y-S0[/video]

Three 2nd fiddle rings.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871219]In reality, most people were absolutely okay to play with all these guys. You will find a player or two who says bad thing about ether of them after having played together but that's it. People were okay to play with Jordan. With Kobe. And are okay to play with LeBron.

As for the relying on analytics part, it sure has value. [B]I see many things on the court each game though that is not going into any stat.[/B] And if I can see that on TV, there is a lot more to it with your teammate on and off the floor.[/QUOTE]
You do not. For one, they track pretty much everything these days, from screens to distance covered, to hockey assists. For two guys who are highly impactful in terms of stuff that doesn’t show up on the traditional stat sheet (say Marcus Smart) do get their value reflected in analytics because of impact data. Impact data simply measures how well a team plays when the player is in, regardless of if they have a dominant statline or not. Stuff like this is how we know Derek White is a great player for instance.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871220]Hmm, maybe I will invent a statistic like you guys.

[B]Kobe[/B] - 5 championships in 20 seasons
[B]Lebron[/B] - 4 championships in 21 seasons

I will call this stat [B]"True Rings Percentage"[/B]

And I even did you a favor by including the 2020 Disney invitiational, which everyone knows isn't a real championship. :oldlol:

Mind you Kobe only played with two HOFers and not at the same time. Lebron played with SEVERAL different HOFers at the same time.

I don't know 3tard, looks like the data favors Mamba.[/QUOTE]
Do you think LeBron couldn’t win 3 rings in 8 years with MJ? Because in order for it to be an equal situation we have to give LeBron someone better than him for 8 years which is what Kobe had.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871222][video=youtube;x5PDgv5y-S0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5PDgv5y-S0[/video]

Three 2nd fiddle rings.[/QUOTE]

Oh right, Kobe played with Shaq. How could I forget. I guess that means his rings don't count.

Oh that's right.

Dwayne Wade
Chris Bosh
Ray Allen

I'm sorry is this an all star team or was this Lebron's supporting cast!?!?

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871221]Funny considering that some of the game's greatest players, analysts and coaches have made the exact same arguments.

Bronnies are down BAD.[/QUOTE]
You realize LeBron is rated higher than Kobe by the majority of people now? The discussion has been MJ and LeBron for a long time now you’re stuck in 2012.