Lebron James - 4 FMVPs - 2nd best Winner of all time

[QUOTE=3ba11;15023585]Lebron is bad at getting FMVP's with only 4 for 10 frequency - so just imagine if he wasn't gifted so many Finals appearances - he would have no FMVP[/QUOTE]

Your comment is completely nonsensical because no one else in history has gotten 4 except MJ. You are acting like FMVPs are as basic as all-star appearances or something lol.

The fact is Lebron has the most FMVPs post-MJ and Lebron was also playing at a historic level when he earned them. There is no getting around this :no:.

You've posted a bunch in this thread because you are clearly triggered by these facts and you've been bodybagged with each of your dumbass coping posts. I'm getting second hand embarrassment at you still trying to do...whatever is your doing...in this thread.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;15023564]*5 FMVPs, when will people adjust for 2015?[/QUOTE]

Okay so he shot 39 percent. And won 2 games. In 82 games, winning 33 percent is not even going to get you the Play In spot in the East.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15023596]Your comment is completely nonsensical because no one else in history has gotten 4 except MJ. You are acting like FMVPs are as basic as all-star appearances or something lol.

The fact is Lebron has the most FMVPs post-MJ and Lebron was also playing at a historic level when he earned them. There is no getting around this :no:.

You've posted a bunch in this thread because you are clearly triggered by these facts and you've been bodybagged with each of your dumbass coping posts. I'm getting second hand embarrassment at you still trying to do...whatever is your doing...in this thread.[/QUOTE]



Yea but the problem is that you aren't taking facts into context. You are dismissing them and just saying Lebron played at a historical level when he earned them and there's not getting around this. There's no getting around this because you're not willing to look at context.

I could do the same thing as you and say KD is 2 and 1 against Lebron in getting the FMVP. And if KD had been on the Warriors team the entire run he could have also got 4 FMVP. But then you would want us to bring things into context. So what I'm saying is your claims might be true in one aspect but lack any kind of substance. If Lebron doesn't have D Wade, there's probably 2 less FMVP because you have to win the championship in order to get the FMVP.

Furthermore, there was also no FMVP before 1969, so Bill Russell could have won 4 as well. Again, you mention certain records, but without context and fail to mention that Lebron also lost as the favorite 7 times while having a lot of help.

And even if we give you the benefit of the doubt, Jordan still has 6 FMVP. Do you really Lebron is gonna pass him and get 7 FMVP? He would have to play a total of 25 years and would have to win 3 more in a row. I'm sorry to break it to you, but that will never happen.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023529]A prime Kareem didn't elevate teams like prime LeBron did. Lakers were a joke before Magic got there. Kareem wasn't even the 3rd best player on his team for his last two titles.

Magic had a shit ton of HOF players around him his entire career. Imagine if LeBron had the 2012 & 2013 Miami cast for 10+ years, that was Magic's career.

Hard to use Magic/Kareem because they both had each other along with other players like Worthy, Cooper, Wilkes, Nixon, Scott, McAdoo etc[/QUOTE]



Hold on. I'm just gonna say one thing. You said Lakers were a joke before Magic got there. Lakers were also a joke when Lebron got there. They didn't win until they got Anthony Davis. Davis lead the team in scoring, rebounds, blocks for many years and played the best defense.

You do realize that Davis has been better than Lebron most of the time on the Lakers, right? You do understand that he's the better all around player just like Doncic is better than Lebron now?

[QUOTE=Walk on Water;15023599]Yea but the problem is that you aren't taking facts into context. You are dismissing them and just saying Lebron played at a historical level when he earned them and there's not getting around this. There's no getting around this because you're not willing to look at context.

I could do the same thing as you and say KD is 2 and 1 against Lebron in getting the FMVP. And if KD had been on the Warriors team the entire run he could have also got 4 FMVP. But then you would want us to bring things into context. So what I'm saying is your claims might be true in one aspect but lack any kind of substance. If Lebron doesn't have D Wade, there's probably 2 less FMVP because you have to win the championship in order to get the FMVP.

Furthermore, there was also no FMVP before 1969, so Bill Russell could have won 4 as well. Again, you mention certain records, but without context and fail to mention that Lebron also lost as the favorite 7 times while having a lot of help.

And even if we give you the benefit of the doubt, Jordan still has 6 FMVP. Do you really Lebron is gonna pass him and get 7 FMVP? He would have to play a total of 25 years and would have to win 3 more in a row. I'm sorry to break it to you, but that will never happen.[/QUOTE]
Lebron's got 4 FMVP and no one else but Mj has that many, this is historical fact. Yes he had Wade, just like almost all other greats get to have at least a good teammate next to them.

Russell could have as many as 8 fmvp, hes the dumb **** counting goat for sure, which is where guys like you and 3ball fall. Yet you dont have Russell as goat do you? Care to explain why hes not above Mj?

[QUOTE=Walk on Water;15023600]Hold on. I'm just gonna say one thing. You said Lakers were a joke before Magic got there. Lakers were also a joke when Lebron got there. They didn't win until they got Anthony Davis. Davis lead the team in scoring, rebounds, blocks for many years and played the best defense.

You do realize that Davis has been better than Lebron most of the time on the Lakers, right? You do understand that he's the better all around player just like Doncic is better than Lebron now?[/QUOTE]

LeBron got injured in the 2019 season which many people disregard. Before his injury, they were 20-14 to start the year with LeBron after being 35-47 the year before. Not to mention this was a 33 year old LeBron elevating.

A prime and healthy 28 year old Kareem in his first season with the Lakers had a losing record. Obviously his team was dog shit, but we have seen LeBron elevate teams who were dogshit like the 2006-2010 Cavs & 2018 Cavs in ways Kareem never did.

As a matter of fact in Kareem's final season with the Bucks they were 35-30 with Kareem, the next season without him they were 38-44. The team saw little drop off. Every team LeBron left saw a significant drop off.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15023602]Lebron's got 4 FMVP and no one else but Mj has that many, this is historical fact. Yes he had Wade, just like almost all other greats get to have at least a good teammate next to them.

Russell could have as many as 8 fmvp, hes the dumb **** counting goat for sure, which is where guys like you and 3ball fall. Yet you dont have Russell as goat do you? Care to explain why hes not above Mj?[/QUOTE]



You didn't really answer any of my points and just took into a different direction. Yes, it's a historical fact but it's also a historical fact that Lebron had some of the worst losses in Finals history. Those aren't historical facts too? Those negate much of his success, how can they not? They don't count, dude? Context doesn't count, either?

But the thing is, not only did Lebron have Wade, he also had Bosh. When things got tough, not only did Bron get to play with Irving, he got to play with Love. Not to mention he played in the weakest Eastern Conference, but also got to pick his role players and coaches, (that's a whole different discussion.)

As far as Russell being above MJ or not is another whole discussion but this one is about Lebron. Try to stay on topic as much as possible.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023603]LeBron got injured in the 2019 season which many people disregard. Before his injury, they were 20-14 to start the year with LeBron after being 35-47 the year before. Not to mention this was a 33 year old LeBron elevating.

A prime and healthy 28 year old Kareem in his first season with the Lakers had a losing record. Obviously his team was dog shit, but we have seen LeBron elevate teams who were dogshit like the 2006-2010 Cavs & 2018 Cavs in ways Kareem never did.

As a matter of fact in Kareem's final season with the Bucks they were 35-30 with Kareem, the next season without him they were 38-44. The team saw little drop off. Every team LeBron left saw a significant drop off.[/QUOTE]



He may have got injured in the 2019 season, but I doubt their record was much better than 500 even with him playing and you need to do much better than that to make the playoffs in the West. 20-14 is decent but not great by any means and it was just the start of the year.

The 2006-2010 Cavs were pretty decent teams. They were some of the top defensive squads in the league. Just because they didn't have superstars doesn't mean they don't deserve some credit. And what do you mean 2018 Cavs? Didn't they get swept in the Finals? By some record margin? Record margin? I don't remember him elevating them in any jaw dropping way. They even had Kevin Love still. He would have been a star in the league still but got worse because of Lebron.

Decent teams? Cavs were 1-13 without LeBron from 2008-2010. I shouldn't even have to explain 2018, Love was super inconsistent and LeBron came back from being down 3-2 vs Boston with Love missing games 6 and 7.

Anyways, your whole point about Kareem just got destroyed.

[QUOTE=Walk on Water;15023599]Yea but the problem is that you aren't taking facts into context. You are dismissing them and just saying Lebron played at a historical level when he earned them and there's not getting around this. There's no getting around this because you're not willing to look at context.

I could do the same thing as you and say KD is 2 and 1 against Lebron in getting the FMVP. And if KD had been on the Warriors team the entire run he could have also got 4 FMVP. But then you would want us to bring things into context. So what I'm saying is your claims might be true in one aspect but lack any kind of substance. If Lebron doesn't have D Wade, there's probably 2 less FMVP because you have to win the championship in order to get the FMVP.

Furthermore, there was also no FMVP before 1969, so Bill Russell could have won 4 as well. Again, you mention certain records, but without context and fail to mention that Lebron also lost as the favorite 7 times while having a lot of help.

And even if we give you the benefit of the doubt, Jordan still has 6 FMVP. Do you really Lebron is gonna pass him and get 7 FMVP? He would have to play a total of 25 years and would have to win 3 more in a row. I'm sorry to break it to you, but that will never happen.[/QUOTE]

KD's body simply couldn't hold up like Lebron's, and KD has even worse intangibles, so your KD point is refuted.

Also Bill Russell doesn't matter because we have been talking about 3-point era.

How did you type so much and literally none of it has any substance?

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023603]LeBron got injured in the 2019 season which many people disregard. Before his injury, they were 20-14 to start the year with LeBron after being 35-47 the year before. Not to mention this was a 33 year old LeBron elevating.

A prime and healthy 28 year old Kareem in his first season with the Lakers had a losing record. Obviously his team was dog shit, but we have seen LeBron elevate teams who were dogshit like the 2006-2010 Cavs & 2018 Cavs in ways Kareem never did.

As a matter of fact in Kareem's final season with the Bucks they were 35-30 with Kareem, the next season without him they were 38-44. The team saw little drop off. Every team LeBron left saw a significant drop off.[/QUOTE]

Lebron may have excelled at elevating mediocre rosters but the real crux of the argument is what he did with stacked rosters and the results considering the level of talent he had around him was not that great.

Not four, not five, not six, not seven...

[QUOTE=Walk on Water;15023605]You didn't really answer any of my points and just took into a different direction. Yes, it's a historical fact but it's also a historical fact that Lebron had some of the worst losses in Finals history. Those aren't historical facts too? Those negate much of his success, how can they not? They don't count, dude? Context doesn't count, either?

But the thing is, not only did Lebron have Wade, he also had Bosh. When things got tough, not only did Bron get to play with Irving, he got to play with Love. Not to mention he played in the weakest Eastern Conference, but also got to pick his role players and coaches, (that's a whole different discussion.)

As far as Russell being above MJ or not is another whole discussion but this one is about Lebron. Try to stay on topic as much as possible.[/QUOTE]


Are you really trying to claim FINALS losses negate finals wins? Is that a serious argument? How do reconcile losses before the finals? Does that remove multiple championships?

You are dumb.

The Lebron haters are so sad in this thread.

Lebron - 4 FMVPs - most post-Jordan.

Lebron - 4 MVPs - most post-Jordan.

Me: Lebron is the second best player in the 3-point era.

Lebron haters: NOoOoOOo, LeBron's BAD, not even top 10 all time. NoOOOOOoOo.

[QUOTE=FilmyCogTurner;15023627]Lebron may have excelled at elevating mediocre rosters but the real crux of the argument is what he did with stacked rosters and the results considering the level of talent he had around him was not that great.

Not four, not five, not six, not seven...[/QUOTE]

LeBron in Miami was an underdog in 2 of the 4 finals. He won 2.

LeBron with the Cavs was an underdog in EVERY Finals appearance. He won 1.

If anything, he overachieved.

So he has three more than that cuck gerbil.

[QUOTE=hold this L;14910083]OP is an example when you have a strong combination of idolization and mental illness.[/QUOTE]
[Url=https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPZqPRPHIF2xVI5uiUFQ7DcZyo3SNqMMQAlw&usqp=CAU][img]https://i.ibb.co/XZ5qVsYf/Screenshot-20250703-235925.jpg[/img][/url]

[QUOTE=Walk on Water;15023605]You didn't really answer any of my points and just took into a different direction. Yes, it's a historical fact but it's also a historical fact that Lebron had some of the worst losses in Finals history. Those aren't historical facts too? Those negate much of his success, how can they not? They don't count, dude? Context doesn't count, either?

But the thing is, not only did Lebron have Wade, he also had Bosh. When things got tough, not only did Bron get to play with Irving, he got to play with Love. Not to mention he played in the weakest Eastern Conference, but also got to pick his role players and coaches, (that's a whole different discussion.)

As far as Russell being above MJ or not is another whole discussion but this one is about Lebron. Try to stay on topic as much as possible.[/QUOTE]

So your answer is......,no answer. Thought so. If the logic doesn't hold up both ways its not a good take. Lebron has some of the worst losses facing some of the greatest teams. The boxing fan in me finds that respectable. Losing is an integral part of sports. Every one doesn't always win. Maybe they lose at different stages....but they all lose.

And yeah Lebron got to play with other great players after a dry 1st run of his career. Some guys were drafted with onto teams with other greats. Some were on teams that drafted or traded for other good players. Lebron just got to his good rosters with a different path. Of all those guys you named, its crazy that only one of them was able to win a chip independent of Lebron and it took another top 5 all-time guy on his team to do so. Funny how that works.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023630]LeBron in Miami was an underdog in 2 of the 4 finals. He won 2.

LeBron with the Cavs was an underdog in EVERY Finals appearance. He won 1.

If anything, he overachieved.[/QUOTE]

You're not getting it.

If you're underdog with that much talent you're doing something wrong.

Say for example you had a season of races between various models of BMW's and in that mix is Pagani Huayra (a clear cut favorite), if over the course of the year the Pagani does not live up to expectations but manages to make it to the final race and due to the underachieving record over the course of the year the Pagani is now considered an underdog - who here is at fault?

So the question is, why could Lebron not organize the talent he had (ie three franchise players X2 different scenarios) and put together an indisputable juggernaut team? The answer is obvious and not to be rude, you must be really daft or young.

[QUOTE=FilmyCogTurner;15023643]You're not getting it.

If you're underdog with that much talent you're doing something wrong.

Say for example you had a season of races between various models of BMW's and in that mix is Pagani Huayra (a clear cut favorite), if over the course of the year the Pagani does not live up to expectations but manages to make it to the final race and due to the underachieving record over the course of the year the Pagani is now considered an underdog - who here is at fault?

So the question is, why could Lebron not organize the talent he had (ie three franchise players X2 different scenarios) and put together an indisputable juggernaut team? The answer is obvious and not to be rude, you must be really daft or young.[/QUOTE]

2011 is Lebron's fault.
2012 won
2013 won
2014 Heat were a shell of themselves at that point outside of Lebron.
2015 no Kyrie/Love
2016 won despite Love playing injured/missing games altogether
2017 lost to most stacked team of all time
2018 Kyrie left, made finals still, again lost to same ultra stacked Warriors.

You are making things more lopsided for Lebron in your own head, especially during 2015-2018. During that time, Lebron ONLY had two other healthy franchise players in the 2017 finals, but the 2017 Warriors are the best/most stacked team of all time. Everyone loses to them, and Lebron still had 34/12/10 on uber efficiency in those finals.

Lebron deserves major shit for 2011, but he was literally fantastic in the playoffs/finals after that.

[QUOTE=FilmyCogTurner;15023643]You're not getting it.

If you're underdog with that much talent you're doing something wrong..[/QUOTE]

Only season you could fault him is 2011.

What you don't understand is that the 2012-2019 era was littered with some of the greatest teams in NBA History, teams LeBron had to face

2014 Spurs - GOAT ball movement team, LeBron's supporting cast was on their final legs.

2015-2018 Warriors - One of the best teams of all time. LeBron was still able to beat them in 2016 with them winning 73 games. in 2015 they had no Kyrie and Love. in 2017 the Warriors added KD making them the GOAT team. in 2018 LeBron was without Kyrie.

[QUOTE=FilmyCogTurner;15023643]You're not getting it.

If you're underdog with that much talent you're doing something wrong.

Say for example you had a season of races between various models of BMW's and in that mix is Pagani Huayra (a clear cut favorite), if over the course of the year the Pagani does not live up to expectations but manages to make it to the final race and due to the underachieving record over the course of the year the Pagani is now considered an underdog - who here is at fault?

So the question is, why could Lebron not organize the talent he had (ie three franchise players X2 different scenarios) and put together an indisputable juggernaut team? The answer is obvious and not to be rude, you must be really daft or young.[/QUOTE]

Lebrons teams were all pre season title favorites.

Either way, its childish to use FMVPs as the magnum opus of "winning".

Titles as a superstar is winning bottom line. And MJ, Russell, Magic all have more. I think Lebron is tied with Kobe, Curry, and Kareem @ 4.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023603]LeBron got injured in the 2019 season which many people disregard. Before his injury, they were 20-14 to start the year with LeBron after being 35-47 the year before. Not to mention this was a 33 year old LeBron elevating.

A prime and healthy 28 year old Kareem in his first season with the Lakers had a losing record. Obviously his team was dog shit, but we have seen LeBron elevate teams who were dogshit like the 2006-2010 Cavs & 2018 Cavs in ways Kareem never did.

As a matter of fact in Kareem's final season with the Bucks they were 35-30 with Kareem, the next season without him they were 38-44. The team saw little drop off. Every team LeBron left saw a significant drop off.[/QUOTE]

Kareem changed teams through a trade so the Lakers lost 3 starters to obtain Kareem and the Bucks got them. Thus you can't compare team records before and after. The Bucks roster got better after the trade and the Lakers one got much worse. When Kareem missed games with the 1975 Bucks and 1978 Lakers and the roster stayed the same, the drop off was huge.

And Lebron still got injured in 2019. Injuries are part of the game and we don't get to ignore them. Bottom line is that from 2018 to 2019, the Lakers improved by a measly 0.11 SRS despite adding Lebron. What ifs are pointless because him getting injured actually happened. Him not getting injured didn't happen.

[QUOTE=tpols;15023646]Lebrons teams were all pre season title favorites. [/QUOTE]

Shaq-Kobe Lakers were pre-season favorites to win it all from every season from 1999-2004, excluding 2000. That's 5 seasons out of 6. They "failed" to reach expectations in '99, '03, & '04. In the '99 & '03 seasons in particular, the Spurs were the betting favorites to win it all once the playoffs rolled around. Nobody gives a shit about preseason odds and them losing those years wasn't some underachivement. It's all low IQ 3ball garbage. Nobody knows how good each team will be until the season starts.

[QUOTE=dankok8;15023648]

And Lebron still got injured in 2019. Injuries are part of the game and we don't get to ignore them. Bottom line is that from 2018 to 2019, the Lakers improved by a measly 0.11 SRS despite adding Lebron. What ifs are pointless because him getting injured actually happened. Him not getting injured didn't happen.[/QUOTE]

Injuries are a legit excuse. LeBron only played 34 games that season where he was 100% healthy.

And LeBron played with bums in Cleveland, Kareem has no excuse. Kareem at least had Gail Goodrich & Lucius Allen in his first season with the Lakers, dependable players. A peak Kareem to lead them to a losing record? LOL

LeBron was already mid 30's when he joined the Lakers and still elevated them when he was healthy.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023653]Injuries are a legit excuse. LeBron only played 34 games that season where he was 100% healthy.

And LeBron played with bums in Cleveland, Kareem has no excuse. Kareem at least had Gail Goodrich & Lucius Allen in his first season with the Lakers, dependable players. A peak Kareem to lead them to a losing record? LOL

LeBron was already mid 30's when he joined the Lakers and still elevated them when he was healthy.[/QUOTE]

Injuries are not a legit excuse when it's Lebron's own injury. I might understand if a teammate gets injured to give him a pass.

Health is part of the game. Ask Kawhi and Bill Walton.

[QUOTE=dankok8;15023655]Injuries are not a legit excuse when it's Lebron's own injury. I might understand if a teammate gets injured to give him a pass.

Health is part of the game. Ask Kawhi and Bill Walton.[/QUOTE]

Yet, here you are making "What if" threads about players if they didn't get injured.

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?518632-Chris-Paul-Without-Playoff-Injuries/page5&p=14938949#post14938949[/url]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?510117-What-was-Kawhi-s-ceiling-without-all-the-injuries[/url]

[QUOTE=tpols;15023646]Lebrons teams were all pre season title favorites.

Either way, its childish to use FMVPs as the magnum opus of "winning".

Titles as a superstar is winning bottom line. And MJ, Russell, Magic all have more. I think Lebron is tied with Kobe, Curry, and Kareem @ 4.[/QUOTE]

Sorry buddy, can't have teammates dropping FMVPs on your head. Magic literally had TWO other teammates win FMVP on his team lol. Kareem too. KD cucked Curry two years in a row when Curry couldn't stand up to Lebron, and lol at Kobe getting 3 peat FMVPs dunked on by Shaq.

MJ and Lebron have the most FMVPs, AND they never had a teammate win FMVP over them. That's no coincidence.

[QUOTE=tpols;14910064]Lebrons talent is GOAT but he choked and bailed waaay too many times. [B]He's 2 single shots away from being 2/10 in The Finals.[/B]

Guys like MJ and Kobe were simply more skilled and far more ruthless.[/QUOTE]

I know this post is a year old, but you can't say he loses that Finals if Kyrie misses that shot. It was a tie game. Both teams were cheeks down the stretch of that game.

Also, who hit the 3 when the score was 94-89 to put the Heat in position for Ray Allen's shot?

Its easy to say he got "bailed out" without proper context.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023650]Shaq-Kobe Lakers were pre-season favorites to win it all from every season from 1999-2004, excluding 2000. That's 5 seasons out of 6. They "failed" to reach expectations in '99, '03, & '04. In the '99 & '03 seasons in particular, the Spurs were the betting favorites to win it all once the playoffs rolled around. Nobody gives a shit about preseason odds and them losing those years wasn't some underachivement. It's all low IQ 3ball garbage. Nobody knows how good each team will be until the season starts.[/QUOTE]


And thats exactly how it should've been. Kobe Shaq Lakers were the best and they proved it over that stretch with a 3peat and one of most dominant title runs ever in 2001. So it lines up with that as well.

[QUOTE=tpols;15023671]And thats exactly how it should've been. Kobe Shaq Lakers were the best and they proved it over that stretch with a 3peat and one of most dominant title runs ever in 2001. So it lines up with that as well.[/QUOTE]

I'm guessing the Rockets should have made the Finals in '87 over the 65 win Lakers team with Magic and showtime at their absolute peak.
:lol

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1987_preseason_odds.html[/url]

[QUOTE=tpols;14910064]Lebrons talent is GOAT but he choked and bailed waaay too many times. He's 2 single shots away from being 2/10 in The Finals.

Guys like MJ and Kobe were simply more skilled and far more ruthless.[/QUOTE]

This is the truth, no matter how much Bronie fluffers try to live in denial.

Truth hurts.

:lebroncry:

[QUOTE=Wally450;15023665]I know this post is a year old, but you can't say he loses that Finals if Kyrie misses that shot. It was a tie game. Both teams were cheeks down the stretch of that game.

Also, who hit the 3 when the score was 94-89 to put the Heat in position for Ray Allen's shot?

Its easy to say he got "bailed out" without proper context.[/QUOTE]


But if we're gonna put everything into context, you have to realize he is very fortunate to have 4 Finals wins. However, in the Finals that he lost, it was never close. We're talking about series where he got blown out in record margins. So you can't have it both ways. You can't eat your cake and have it too. You have to look at the positives and negatives and in Lebron's case unfortunately there are more negatives. And no, you cannot use the excuse that he had no help.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15023633]So your answer is......,no answer. Thought so. If the logic doesn't hold up both ways its not a good take. Lebron has some of the worst losses facing some of the greatest teams. The boxing fan in me finds that respectable. Losing is an integral part of sports. Every one doesn't always win. Maybe they lose at different stages....but they all lose.

And yeah Lebron got to play with other great players after a dry 1st run of his career. Some guys were drafted with onto teams with other greats. Some were on teams that drafted or traded for other good players. Lebron just got to his good rosters with a different path. Of all those guys you named, its crazy that only one of them was able to win a chip independent of Lebron and it took another top 5 all-time guy on his team to do so. Funny how that works.[/QUOTE]



These are all mental gymnastics that you are playing. Please redo what you wrote and write something a little more convincing.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15023628]Are you really trying to claim FINALS losses negate finals wins? Is that a serious argument? How do reconcile losses before the finals? Does that remove multiple championships?

You are dumb.[/QUOTE]

No, you are dumb my friend. You are the one trying to explain away a loser, not ME.

If I make it to the Finals 100 times, but win 2 times or whatever many times, that doesn't exactly make me the best or 2nd best of all time. But according to you, no amount of Finals losses negates finals wins. I'm not saying it REMOVES the championships, but it does put a stain on your career the more you lose, plus the AMOUNT you lose by and Lebron has lost by a lot. There's no point in even playing the game, if losses don't count and you only count wins.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15023662]Sorry buddy, can't have teammates dropping FMVPs on your head. Magic literally had TWO other teammates win FMVP on his team lol. Kareem too. KD cucked Curry two years in a row when Curry couldn't stand up to Lebron, and lol at Kobe getting 3 peat FMVPs dunked on by Shaq.

MJ and Lebron have the most FMVPs, AND they never had a teammate win FMVP over them. That's no coincidence.[/QUOTE]


And that is the difference between Lebron and other champions. Lebron would rather have more FMVPs and less rings, whereas other players are willing to play a team game and possibly sacrifice a couple of FMVPS. If Lebron had 6 chips but only 3 FMVP, he would be more successful than he is now.

But you are too stubborn and child minded to understand this. That's why Lebron is 4 and 6. A loser. He's literally competing against his own teammates like you said.

And the problem with comparing him to Jordan, is Jordan has both more FMVP AND rings than him. And more MVPS. Jordan is better than Lebron and there's no path for Lebron to win more FMVP or rings than him. Plus Jordan never lost in the Finals. Lebron has even more losses than wins.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15023644]2011 is Lebron's fault.
2012 won
2013 won
2014 Heat were a shell of themselves at that point outside of Lebron.
2015 no Kyrie/Love
2016 won despite Love playing injured/missing games altogether
2017 lost to most stacked team of all time
2018 Kyrie left, made finals still, again lost to same ultra stacked Warriors.

You are making things more lopsided for Lebron in your own head, especially during 2015-2018. During that time, Lebron ONLY had two other healthy franchise players in the 2017 finals, but the 2017 Warriors are the best/most stacked team of all time. Everyone loses to them, and Lebron still had 34/12/10 on uber efficiency in those finals.

Lebron deserves major shit for 2011, but he was literally fantastic in the playoffs/finals after that.[/QUOTE]

Not even discussing championships won or lost, with the talent Lebron had around him putting together multiple dominant super teams should have been within reason.

Not to sound like 3ball but his lack of shot creation and off ball ability was a team killer. He was not skilled or intelligent enough to manufacture a powerful offensive system, instead it was what's the easiest shortcut available. He wants all the glory but non of the actual hard work that goes into it.

I will say this, in the 2015 finals without Kyrie/Love I did find Lebron impressive. He facilitated the offense from the post way more than I had ever seen and I thought he had figured it out that he needs to make roots there. Following years it was not the case although he did make for himself a pretty decent fallaway jumper. And this year with Luka I had to respect how he paired himself. Lebron spotting up for corners 3s was a surprise and he played that role well.



[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023645]Only season you could fault him is 2011.

What you don't understand is that the 2012-2019 era was littered with some of the greatest teams in NBA History, teams LeBron had to face

2014 Spurs - GOAT ball movement team, LeBron's supporting cast was on their final legs.

2015-2018 Warriors - One of the best teams of all time. LeBron was still able to beat them in 2016 with them winning 73 games. in 2015 they had no Kyrie and Love. in 2017 the Warriors added KD making them the GOAT team. in 2018 LeBron was without Kyrie.[/QUOTE]

That's what I'm saying. The GOAT should be able to engineer his own version of Spurs basketball, not stack talent and win because he has other superstars to carry the load. When your 3rd option is a franchise player in his own right that is a massive upswing of talent and he had that both with the Heat and Cavs.

2016 is a great win for sure but let's not pretend he took some trash roster and pulled off a major upset. He took his stacked team and went up against another stacked team, someone has to win.

2017 and 2018, no one was defeating the Dubs but the point still stands, if Lebron is as great as you think he is, with the talent level he had we should have seen some major major dominant teams from him.

[QUOTE=FilmyCogTurner;15023687]Not even discussing championships won or lost, with the talent Lebron had around him putting together multiple dominant super teams should have been within reason.

Not to sound like 3ball but his lack of shot creation and off ball ability was a team killer. He was not skilled or intelligent enough to manufacture a powerful offensive system, instead it was what's the easiest shortcut available. He wants all the glory but non of the actual hard work that goes into it.

I will say this, in the 2015 finals without Kyrie/Love I did find Lebron impressive. He facilitated the offense from the post way more than I had ever seen and I thought he had figured it out that he needs to make roots there. Following years it was not the case although he did make for himself a pretty decent fallaway jumper. And this year with Luka I had to respect how he paired himself. Lebron spotting up for corners 3s was a surprise and he played that role well.





That's what I'm saying. The GOAT should be able to engineer his own version of Spurs basketball, not stack talent and win because he has other superstars to carry the load. When your 3rd option is a franchise player in his own right that is a massive upswing of talent and he had that both with the Heat and Cavs.

2016 is a great win for sure but let's not pretend he took some trash roster and pulled off a major upset. He took his stacked team and went up against another stacked team, someone has to win.

[B]2017 and 2018, no one was defeating the Dubs but the point still stands, if Lebron is as great as you think he is, with the talent level he had we should have seen some major major dominant teams from him[/B].[/QUOTE]


EXACTLY. It's not bad that Lebron lost those 2 Finals, but it's the way he lost them. He couldn't even put up a fight. And if he is as great as they say he is, we at least expect him to put up a fight with the talent he had around him.

[QUOTE=FilmyCogTurner;15023687]
2016 is a great win for sure but let's not pretend he took some trash roster and pulled off a major upset. He took his stacked team and went up against another stacked team, someone has to win.

2017 and 2018, no one was defeating the Dubs but the point still stands, if Lebron is as great as you think he is, with the talent level he had we should have seen some major major dominant teams from him.[/QUOTE]

We saw him take down the 73 win Warriors team and a dynasty 2013 Spurs team. Both teams are better than anything MJ ever beat in the Finals.

Your criticism of him not playing on major dominant teams doesn't make sense. He played on a Miami team that won 66 games, won 27 straight games at one point.

Put MJ and his bulls in the 2012-2019 era and he does not win 6 chips.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023690]We saw him take down the 73 win Warriors team and a dynasty 2013 Spurs team. Both teams are better than anything MJ ever beat in the Finals.

Your criticism of him not playing on major dominant teams doesn't make sense. He played on a Miami team that won 66 games, won 27 straight games at one point.

Put MJ and his bulls in the 2012-2019 era and he does not win 6 chips.[/QUOTE]


Even if he took down a team better than MJ faced, that doesn't mean everything. If MJ never faced a team like that, how could you expect him to do something that he is not given the opportunity to do? And the Spurs dominated Lebron 2 out of 3 and barely lost 1, so that's not exactly you should be bragging about. He also lost 3 out of 4 to the Warriors so even though it's nice he has 1 ring out of that battle, it isn't the be all end all.

And when you say put MJ on the Bulls in the 2012-2019 era and say he doesn't win 6 chips, you don't know that. You're just writing that and making a lot of assumptions. Even if he didn't win 6 chips in those 7 years, he certainly would not lose to Dallas. He certainly would not shoot 35 percent on 6 turnovers to the Spurs. And he still wins more than Lebron. So again, you keep going around in circles but you're not making any sense.

[QUOTE=Walk on Water;15023694]
And when you say put MJ on the Bulls in the 2012-2019 era and say he doesn't win 6 chips, [B]you don't know that.[/B] You're just writing that and making a lot of assumptions. Even if he didn't win 6 chips in those 7 years, he certainly would not lose to Dallas. He certainly would not shoot 35 percent on 6 turnovers to the Spurs. And he still wins more than Lebron. So again, you keep going around in circles but you're not making any sense.[/QUOTE]

It's a common fact.

[QUOTE=Walk on Water;15023682]These are all mental gymnastics that you are playing. Please redo what you wrote and write something a little more convincing.[/QUOTE]

Aka you ain't got shit to come back with. Thats what happens when you enter debates with your heart and not your mind. Every thread you've entered lately has turned into a gangbang of posters having their way with you.