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[QUOTE=ImKobe;14910673]You have an argument with 2015 for sure but Steph faced better opponents in '22 than Jokic did in '23.[/QUOTE]
I'd honestly disagree with that, the Suns & Lakers are pretty clearly > the Grizz & Mavs, esp with Ja missing half the series. They did have a tougher Finals matchup, though Tatum & Butler were both pretty ass in those series.
[QUOTE=j3lademaster;14910689]If Jokic goes through LA, Minnie, okc then Boston then can we call this a gauntlet?[/QUOTE]
Seems like it would be similar to what Steph did in 2022.
[QUOTE=ImKobe;14910692]Seems like it would be similar to what Steph did in 2022.[/QUOTE]
No it would be much tougher. GS had a first round bye facing Denver without Murray and MPJ. Next round Ja got hurt. Then they faced a weaker version of Dallas.
[QUOTE=ImKobe;14910673]You have an argument with 2015 for sure but Steph faced better opponents in '22 than Jokic did in '23.[/QUOTE]
The Celtics were good but not ready. The Warriors got lucky in the West.
Both the Suns and Lakers last year I think were tougher playoff opponents than anyone the Warriors faced.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14910706]The Celtics were good but not ready. The Warriors got lucky in the West.
Both the Suns and Lakers last year I think were tougher playoff opponents than anyone the Warriors faced.[/QUOTE]
celtics were better than both. Beat mil and a good miami team
[QUOTE=ImKobe;14910563]What issues did Steph have, other than when he played on one leg in 2016?
It's too early for this right now. Jokic is still at his peak and has more to do before I'd put him over peak Steph. Steph had more help I agree but that also led to the most dominant RS ever in 2016, followed by the most dominant Playoff run ever in 2017.
Even when KD got injured he took them to the Finals and had one of the greatest individual series in NBA history against Portland in 2019, and took prime Kawhi to 6 games with half the GS rotation injured. I'd argue that Curry's 2022 title run was more impressive than anything Jokic has done so far in the POs, and that was a past-prime Steph with a team that was arguably worse than any of the healthy Denver ones.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14910665]im conflicted. Jokic is more consistent in playoffs for sure. I dont think many have peaked like curry on offense in 16 and his help in this discussion gets overrated. His teams certainly had talent but that was defensive talent with dray,iggy, bogut, klay etc. On offense they had 1.5 creators in curry and draymond who can pass but not a scorer. Klay was a great shotmaker but didnt create for others. The nuggets have like 2.5 with jokic/murray and gordon(the draymond role) to a certain extent and 2 excellent floor spacers in porter and kcp. dont look at nuggets not having any all stars, they have more offensive talent than the 15-16 gs teams even relative to era and their defense is above average. most title teams have at least 2 shot creators. the 2022 team sure had 2.5 adding poole but recent history suggests poole might not have been that good. That team was deep but had 1 superstar and 1 all star in dray(wiggins,poole, klay werent all star lvl).
Warriors had some relatively easy runs in 15 and 22 but the nuggets run was also relatively easy last year. 22 warriors faced the celtics in finals at least. Nuggets certainly will have an extremely tough run this year but havent won the title yet.[/QUOTE]
The prob with these kinda arguments, and it feels like theyre the majority, is youre talkin about everything BUT the players themselves. Youre comparing their teammates, comparing their opponents. Might as well compare their wives and cars.
How about saying what it is about the players themselves that makes you favor one or the other. Instead of trying to play JENGA with adding or subtracting justifications for their team success. Team success is a TEAM achievement. If you are comparing individuals, make points about how one player affects the game relative to the other.
Who has more help has nothing to do with who’s the better player. It’s irrelevant. Make a meaningful point about the players themselves. Otherwise youre copping out.
[QUOTE=ImKobe;14910692]Seems like it would be similar to what Steph did in 2022.[/QUOTE]Murray and mpj injured 1st round, no Ja Memphis 2nd, even younger Luka without Kyrie and worse front court, and a worse version of Boston? Lol
[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14910714]The prob with these kinda arguments, and it feels like theyre the majority, is youre talkin about everything BUT the players themselves. Youre comparing their teammates, comparing their opponents. Might as well compare their wives and cars.
How about saying what it is about the players themselves that makes you favor one or the other. Instead of trying to play JENGA with adding or subtracting justifications for their team success. Team success is a TEAM achievement. If you are comparing individuals, make points about how one player affects the game relative to the other.
Who has more help has nothing to do with who’s the better player. It’s irrelevant. Make a meaningful point about the players themselves. Otherwise youre copping out.[/QUOTE]
well jokic is a beast scoring in the paint and goat lvl playmaking. Never seen that combination in history. No one in history has shot like curry. Just opens up easy layups for his teammates but doesnt show up in box score. Jokic is decent as shooter too and curry can get to the rim pretty well. When you have 2 guys who are historically good but play very differently it's hard to compare so you start looking at team results accounting for teammate quality. Defense jokic is likely slightly better but doesnt matter too much. I dont think many people in history have peaked on offense like 16 rs curry but playoffs were a fall off. Tbf, Jokic also hasnt gone 100% in the regular season for a few years last time was likely 2022 when he had to with injuries to murray/porter. EPM does agree with me jokic is a 7.5 on offense last 4 years. curry's 2nd and 3rd best years are around 7.5 but he's a 9.2 in 16.
[QUOTE=ImKobe;14910692]Seems like it would be similar to what Steph did in 2022.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14910734]well jokic is a beast scoring in the paint and goat lvl playmaking. Never seen that combination in history. No one in history has shot like curry. Just opens up easy layups for his teammates but doesnt show up in box score. Jokic is decent as shooter too and curry can get to the rim pretty well. When you have 2 guys who are historically good but play very differently it's hard to compare so you start looking at team results accounting for teammate quality. Defense jokic is likely slightly better but doesnt matter too much. I dont think many people in history have peaked on offense like 16 rs curry but playoffs were a fall off. Tbf, Jokic also hasnt gone 100% in the regular season for a few years last time was likely 2022 when he had to with injuries to murray/porter. EPM does agree with me jokic is a 7.5 on offense last 4 years. curry's 2nd and 3rd best years are around 7.5 but he's a 9.2 in 16.[/QUOTE]
I like that better :applause:
[QUOTE=j3lademaster;14910733]Murray and mpj injured 1st round, no Ja Memphis 2nd, even younger Luka without Kyrie and worse front court, and a worse version of Boston? Lol[/QUOTE]
This. I forgot both mpj and murray were absent in the first round two years ago.
joker is the real deal.
I guess the peak is over?
[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/pXdMFTCv/IMG-2283.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14911087]I guess the peak is over?
[/QUOTE]
When was Embiids peak? Was it losing to the Hawks, or the Raps?
[QUOTE=tontoz;14911093]When was Embiids peak? Was it losing to the Hawks, or the Raps?[/QUOTE]
Personally, I have the 15 point on 5/18 Game 7 against Boston last year. That's when I knew he had officially ended the Jokic "debate".
[QUOTE=tontoz;14911093]When was Embiids peak? Was it losing to the Hawks, or the Raps?[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:
dominant center with all-time skills > dominant pg with all-time skills
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14911102]Personally, I have the 15 point on 5/18 Game 7 against Boston last year. That's when I knew he had officially ended the Jokic "debate".[/QUOTE]
It was when he grabbed Mitchell Robinson’s leg after he missed b2b flop calls. Most players wouldn’t have flopped the second time after the 3 point flop didn’t work out at the other end, but they don’t possess the mental fortitude of an Embiid. No one does. Embiid heroically drops to the floor again, dude just keeps on coming. And to have the wherewithal to grab Robinson’s leg… the competitiveness, the fire. It’s when I knew Embiid not only crushed the Wilt debate, but the MJ and Lebron debate as well. GOAT.
[QUOTE=tontoz;14910705]No it would be much tougher. GS had a first round bye facing Denver without Murray and MPJ. Next round Ja got hurt. Then they faced a weaker version of Dallas.[/QUOTE]
Looks like the comparison ended sooner than anticipated and will have to wait again for next year. Jokic did not end up facing Dallas or Boston. Curry still more impressive.
Most of you guys still fail to comprehend just how absurdly high Curry's peak was.
Steph makes more impact on offense, I can't see a peak Steph led team that was a high seed getting completely bottled like this on offense in back to back games in 2024...I guess you could argue Jokic edges ahead because of defense but he's not really a great defender so I wouldn't.
Lmao at jokic even being mentioned with curry. It's like these mofos watching games with jokic family pointing guns to their head.
[QUOTE=Stephonit;14912582]Looks like the comparison ended sooner than anticipated and will have to wait again for next year. Jokic did not end up facing Dallas or Boston. Curry still more impressive.
Most of you guys still fail to comprehend just how absurdly high Curry's peak was.[/QUOTE]
Both have absurd peaks. Both might be the best offensive players ever for their position, which is the reason why I made this thread.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14912587]Steph makes more impact on offense, I can't see a peak Steph led team that was a high seed getting completely bottled like this on offense in back to back games in 2024...I guess you could argue Jokic edges ahead because of defense but he's not really a great defender so I wouldn't.[/QUOTE]
Denver has regularly had a better defense with their center on the bench for most of his PS career. Pretty awful considering he's a center. Jokic's playmaking and offense is disgusting though, I don't know how many decades it will take to see another center do both at that level. :applause:
[QUOTE=hold this L;14912604]Denver has regularly had a better defense with their center on the bench for most of his PS career. Pretty awful considering he's a center. Jokic's playmaking and offense is disgusting though, I don't know how many decades it will take to see another center do both at that level. :applause:[/QUOTE]
He's not a good defender, but he's not Kanter either so he still likely has more impact on that end than a point guard who's not stellar. I'd take Curry overall though because I don't think the defensive edge for Jokic is enough to make up the offensive gap. As good as Jokic is on offense, I've never seen anyone warp a game on offense like Curry. Curry would be the GOAT if guys like LeBron, Kareem and MJ weren't so impactful on defense.
Anyone watching the Wolves- Nuggets series realizes that Jokic ran out of gas. I've said this before, there are great players in the league that do not put in the work in the gym and it costs them- Kevin Durant, Nowitzki. Curry fit this bill for many years but he bulked up and took his condition to the top. You need to set the standard for the team. If you look at players like LeBron, Jordan, and now Curry- they do the work off the court. It matters in terms of all time greatness. You can't serve your team when you are lumbering around in Q4 hardly playing D.
[QUOTE=bdonovan;14912620]Anyone watching the Wolves- Nuggets series realizes that Jokic ran out of gas. I've said this before, there are great players in the league that do not put in the work in the gym and it costs them- Kevin Durant, Nowitzki. Curry fit this bill for many years but he bulked up and took his condition to the top. You need to set the standard for the team. If you look at players like LeBron, Jordan, and now Curry- they do the work off the court. It matters in terms of all time greatness. You can't serve your team when you are lumbering around in Q4 hardly playing D.[/QUOTE]
^ This guy doesnt understand body types.
“Those Kenyans keep winning marathons because theyre the only ones who work out! It’s that simple!”
:facepalm
[QUOTE=RRR3;14912611]He's not a good defender, but he's not Kanter either so he still likely has more impact on that end than a point guard who's not stellar. I'd take Curry overall though because I don't think the defensive edge for Jokic is enough to make up the offensive gap. As good as Jokic is on offense, I've never seen anyone warp a game on offense like Curry. Curry would be the GOAT if guys like LeBron, Kareem and MJ weren't so impactful on defense.[/QUOTE]
It's much worse for a team to have a player be worse defensively at the 5 than the 1. Jokic is not on Curry's level offensively. He's insanely efficient, but I haven't seen teams dare a guy to shoot in a game 7 from distance like him from any ATG offensive hubs. Maybe Lebron early in his career, but now the asshole turned into a shooter.
[QUOTE=j3lademaster;14910419][B][SIZE=5]Joker, easy.[/SIZE][/B] I love Steph Curry, but he has a lot of issues in the playoffs. Joker otoh, rises to the occasion when you need him most. The only players who have been able to consistently do that in the playoffs have been Jordan, Lebron, Kawhi and Big Honey; very short list.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=hold this L;14912630]It's much worse for a team to have a player be worse defensively at the 5 than the 1. Jokic is not on Curry's level offensively. He's insanely efficient, but I haven't seen teams dare a guy to shoot in a game 7 from distance like him from any ATG offensive hubs. Maybe Lebron early in his career, but now the asshole turned into a shooter.[/QUOTE]
Yes it's easier to get away with mediocre defenders at the 1 spot no doubt. Because centers are the most important member of your defense. As a LeBron fan his shooting is pretty random year to year. He could easily go back to being a brick next year and then shoot 40% from 3 the year after that.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14910691]I'd honestly disagree with that, the Suns & Lakers are pretty clearly > the Grizz & Mavs, esp with Ja missing half the series. They did have a tougher Finals matchup, though Tatum & Butler were both pretty ass in those series.[/QUOTE]
It's an interesting comparison. Just took a look at the denver title run last year and realized that they faced sub-50 win teams throughout the playoffs, if that could imply anything. But two years ago saw GS facing more shorthanded teams (mpj & murray for denver, morant for memphis and tatum with undisclosed wrist injury for boston) en route to their fourth title under the dynasty.
[QUOTE=tpols;14910422]Curry is a top 10 player all time ~ 4 rings all with superstar production, GOAT season, only UMVP in history, etc.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:
[QUOTE=hold this L;14912630]It's much worse for a team to have a player be worse defensively at the 5 than the 1. [b]Jokic is not on Curry's level offensively.[/b] He's insanely efficient, but I haven't seen teams dare a guy to shoot in a game 7 from distance like him from any ATG offensive hubs. Maybe Lebron early in his career, but now the asshole turned into a shooter.[/QUOTE]
Huh? What does Curry do offensively (besides run a round off of screens) that makes him so much better?
Jokic is very confident shooting anywhere from 27ft or closer and has a MUCH better midrange game than Curry. Plus Curry doesn't come close to Joker's offensive rebounding capabilities.
[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14913241]Huh? What does Curry do offensively (besides run a round off of screens) that makes him so much better?
Jokic is very confident shooting anywhere from 27ft or closer and has a MUCH better midrange game than Curry. Plus Curry doesn't come close to Joker's offensive rebounding capabilities.[/QUOTE]
Spaces the floor better than anyone to ever play the game
Let me know when Jokic is drawing double teams 30+ feet away from the hoop
[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14913241]Huh? What does Curry do offensively (besides run a round off of screens) that makes him so much better?
Jokic is very confident shooting anywhere from 27ft or closer and has a MUCH better midrange game than Curry. Plus Curry doesn't come close to Joker's offensive rebounding capabilities.[/QUOTE]
Jokic was treated like Draymond Green at the 3 point line at a home in a game 7, and he completely failed. Anyone that gets disrepected offensively like that is not in any conversation for GOAT offensive player. Steph being a danger from so far out breaks the defensive line entirely (teams have to move up, adding more space to the other four teammates), add being the best off ball player of all time and it breaks the defensive line. You're devaluing the off ball here. Draymond without that is a a 15MPG defensive energy guy, add that level of elite off ball play and you have one of the more impactful players during several PS series or a few regular seasons. Draymond would be a complete failure offensively if he lined up with Joker.
Only 70% for Jokic??? Who are the few retarded ones picking Steph :roll:
Ask 1000 coach's out there and 1000 would pick Jokic, not only is he better in every single area than Steph other than 3pt shot, but he's also so much bigger and impossible to guard, Steph gets clamped by Matthew Dellavedova :oldlol: this shouldn't even be up for debate lol.
[QUOTE=hold this L;14913253]Jokic was treated like Draymond Green at the 3 point line at a home in a game 7, and he completely failed. Anyone that gets disrepected offensively like that is not in any conversation for GOAT offensive player. Steph being a danger from so far out breaks the defensive line entirely (teams have to move up, adding more space to the other four teammates), add being the best off ball player of all time and it breaks the defensive line. You're devaluing the off ball here. Draymond without that is a a 15MPG defensive energy guy, add that level of elite off ball play and you have one of the more impactful players during several PS series or a few regular seasons. Draymond would be a complete failure offensively if he lined up with Joker.[/QUOTE]
You probably want to stay away from big game performance talk if you're trying to debate pro Curry or pro Kobe. Curry in particular is incredibly unclutch. Like, historically bad in the clutch.
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvsseYwXoAEJ54p.jpg:large[/IMG]
And this is coming from someone who has Curry as my favorite current player. I've argued time and time again Draymond would be akin to what you said- a 15 min energy guy off the bench- without him. He doesn't rebound well enough to be your center(KD era is a bad example because that's not a typical team). I've even argued I would consider taking Curry first if we're discussing all time teams because he's that rare all time superstar who doesn't need plays ran for him and has zero ego as far as letting his teammates cook, evident in how he took a backseat to KD and willingly came off the bench for meme player Jordan Poole because Poole was on a hot streak and Steph unselfishly wanted to help foster the kid's confidence. Trust me, I understand Curry's intangibles even BEYOND his offball play, which is second to none. But if we're building a team with salary caps and all, Jokic is easier to build around because he's almost impossible to force a bad game out of. Historically impossible, almost on Lebron's levels. Curry, KD, Kobe, all those guys are all time greats but all of them have let great defenses force them into uncomfortable shots and had poor series' off of them. Shaq, Jokic and Lebron- while they have had stinkers and have been bothered by defenses, is MUCH less susceptible to having a bad series than virtually any other peak in history. [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6xrfky/larry_birds_long_list_of_playoff_failures/"]Look at the great Bird's playoff failures[/URL], and he's seen as some consistent clutch god. Everyone has playoff failures, Jokic's 'Tragic Johnson' moment is when he 'failed' with 29/11/8 on 61% ts for the series while averaging UNDER 3 SECONDS PER TOUCH(did his damage within optimal ball movement and flow of the game) when he 'only' did 34/19/7 on 46%(ok, that's terrible for a center) facing elimination. Against a team that's built to stop him by the previous Denver gm. If this is his floor, he's undoubtedly all time great.
And no, they didn't leave him like Draymond. Jokic is so good at creating you live with giving him space for the 3, Draymond's spacing is completely created for him by Steph- not respect for any other aspect of Green's game.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14913252]Spaces the floor better than anyone to ever play the game
Let me know when Jokic is drawing double teams 30+ feet away from the hoop[/QUOTE]
Lemme know when Steph can convert middy's over double coverage.
[QUOTE=hold this L;14913253]Jokic was treated like Draymond Green at the 3 point line at a home in a game 7, and he completely failed. Anyone that gets disrepected offensively like that is not in any conversation for GOAT offensive player. Steph being a danger from so far out breaks the defensive line entirely (teams have to move up, adding more space to the other four teammates), add being the best off ball player of all time and it breaks the defensive line. You're devaluing the off ball here. Draymond without that is a a 15MPG defensive energy guy, add that level of elite off ball play and you have one of the more impactful players during several PS series or a few regular seasons. Draymond would be a complete failure offensively if he lined up with Joker.[/QUOTE]
Your comparison is based on 1 game. Joker's 3pt shot is respected by defenses around the league. With Denver having better options to take the 3, of course defenses would rather let him take the 3.
Steph being the much bigger threat from 3 is exactly more Joker is a threat inside the line and on the offensive glass. This while not even bringing up his passing advantage.
When Steph's 3 isn't falling, it's hard for him to impact the offense. The same can't be said about Jokic.
[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14913311]Lemme know when Steph can convert middy's over double coverage.[/QUOTE]
doesn’t create more offense then steph curry’s spacing
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14913321]doesn’t create more offense then steph curry’s spacing[/QUOTE]
Converting offense without needing necessary spacing >>>>>