How credible is a Steph Curry GOAT case?

[QUOTE=Stephonit;14936408]You must be low on the Warriors as a team historically for that list to make any sense. If the Warriors are the greatest NBA team of all-time then having both its lead players in tier 3 while other teams have their 2 leads in higher tiers makes no sense.

Kareem and Magic higher? Shaq and Kobe higher? Kareem and Oscar higher? Wilt and West higher? You think the teams those guys were known for are greater than the Curry-Durant Warriors? Morever putting KD in that tier 3 is based on what?[/QUOTE]

What is KDs career outside of 2017 and 2018? He's a great player, but what has his talent translated to in terms of team winning outside of being on a team that had already won and has the all-time record? He couldn't keep it together in Brooklyn, granted thats not all on him but I do factor in leadership intangibles and he's be the first to tell you he don't give a fukk about that. That's why I have Steph over him, KD in isolation may be a more dynamic unguardable talent but 'I just wanna hope' doesn't galvanize the lockerrom and thats why he's never won, or will ever win, outside the Warriors. Not as a main guy anyway. There's alot of guys with the talent and could hang on the floor with anyone. Prime Tmac could hang with the GOATS but his talent never translated to wins and losses and then he got hurt. It is what it is.

I also saw most of the guys in tier 1 and 2 and I just think they were just better players overall. I have my reasons, and it's not an exact science. Based on your name its obvious why you favor, so there is little point me explaining myself further.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14936409]What is KDs carrer outside of 2017 and 2018? He's a great player, but what has his talent translated to in terms of team winning outside of being on a team that had already won and has the all-time record. I also saw most of the guys in tier 1 and 2 and I just think they were just better players overall. I have my reasons, and it's not an exact science. Based on your name its obvious why you favor, so there is little point me explaining myself further.[/QUOTE]

You seem to misunderstand my question regarding KD. Why is KD even in the same tier as Oscar, West, Dr. J, and Moses?

For the sake of argument let's say Oscar has the least impressive career of that group. Without Kareem, his supporters will probably say he had the most unfortunate supporting cast of the lot in comparison to KD who separate from the Warriors still played with one of the best supporting casts.

[QUOTE=Stephonit;14936411]You seem to misunderstand my question regarding KD. Why is KD even in the same tier as Oscar, West, Dr. J, and Moses?[/QUOTE]

Why wouldn't he be? What makes those guys careers worse, or them worse however you define it? Answer my question, why am I supposed to put him on a pedestal for 2017 and 2018? Alot of great players win in that situation. There is a wide gap between a Harrison Barnes and KD as far as SFs who win in that situation. I know what KD is and isn't, and he's been that for 17 years. It's not a secret at this point.

Moses is probably underrated. I can make the case that Oscars main claim to fame is less relevant now because we're in an inflated stats era so the triple double is less important than when he was doing it over seasons, and he only won as Kareems sidekick. I can roll with that. But do I think KD is in Tier 2? With Shaq? Hakeem? Duncan? Kobe? Magic? Bird? Hell no.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14936412]Why wouldn't he be? What makes those guys careers worse, or them worse however you define it. Answer my question, why am I supposed to put him on a pedastal for 2017 and 2018. Alot of great players win in that situation. Moses is probably underrated. I can make the case that Oscars main claim to fame is less relevant now because we're in an inflates stats era so the triple double is less important than when he was doing it over seasons. But do I think KD is in Tier 2? With Shaq? Hakeem? Duncan? Kobe? Magic? Bird? Hell no[/QUOTE]

Let me rephrase: Why isn't KD in Tier 4? Outside of the Warriors KD's main career highlights is one MVP and one finals appearance and that's with some strong supporting rosters. Compare that to someone like Moses who has 3 MVPs and made a finals with a weak cast or Oscar who has an MVP and was generally thought to be on weak teams constantly facing the dynasty Celtics.

[QUOTE=Stephonit;14936413]Let me rephrase: Why isn't KD in Tier 4?[/QUOTE]

He could be. Like I said, its not a science. My Tier 4 would be guys like Dirk, Garnett, Robinson, Wade, Mailman. Hell, At this point Jokic could be Tier 2 or 3 but he's still writing his career. Giannis could be tier 2 or 3. These guys are still playing and writing their story. Again, there is nothing consistent or exact about these conversations. Alot of it feel and preference.

I read your edit. So you're saying KD should be below tier 3. Sure. Talentwise he's a Tier 2 but for what he's actually done outside 2017 and 18? Yeah sure, Tier 4. I'm not spending the night debating something this non-scientific though.

I haven't addressed the original poster yet so let me do so now.

Curry has quite a few things in his column that make him an obvious candidate.

To start with the most basic things you expect to see in terms of results are in his favor.

Led the team with the single season regular season wins record. ( Implies that he is ranked first according to this metric)
Led the team with the single season playoffs wins record. (First)
Led the team with the most dramatic turnaround from bottom dweller to champion. (First)

Is the master of the biggest weapon in the game. (First)
Is the key guy in the team widely considered to be the best in NBA history. (First)
Has a season that is arguably the greatest statistical season ever thus a unanimous MVP. (First)

All the above are not just arguments for top 10, they are arguments for greatest ever. They are not forced or stretched arguments either they are natural arguments. These are all things you could have anticipated a player who is the greatest ever to have a claim to being even at the start of this exercise of determining who it is if entering without preconceptions. The above points are also minimally debatable. Some of them are outright just Steph alone while the others have maybe only one or two legitimate contenders for the claim.

Steph plays in the modern era. Some older guys may have more impressive numbers in some categories but playing in the modern era with its 4 rounds of best of 7 series in the playoffs and deeper field one could argue should give modern players a boost in comparisons to players from earlier eras.

In a similar vein Steph has played in the tougher conference in a non-expansion era. It's also a player movement era which means that the constantly evolving league keeps giving different challenges making it harder to keep on trotting out the same team to defeat the same adversaries that you've already shown to own.

When one looks just at the common sense basics Steph has a fairly straightforward case. The extra stuff media creates are just made-up distractions.

[QUOTE=Stephonit;14936411]You seem to misunderstand my question regarding KD. Why is KD even in the same tier as Oscar, West, Dr. J, and Moses?[/QUOTE]

Moses was the KD of his era, he joined a superteam to win a title, didn't really have success outside of that '83 chip. Dr. J never won without Moses.

It makes sense that the greatest 3-point shooter (Curry) and the best 2-point shooter (MJ) should be 1 and 2, or vice versa... I prefer the pure basketball side of things, so I would go with the best 2-point jumpshooter and assume that the best 2-point shooter would easily pick up threes and probably already showed great aptitude and potential in that area - the best 2-point jumpshooter would also be the best in the 70's when there was no 3-point line.... Btw, Curry has more MVP's than Kobe and won with Klay < Pau (a lot less).. Pau was a franchise player (expected to build something from scratch), while Klay never was.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14936475][B]It makes sense that the greatest 3-point shooter (Curry) and the best 2-point shooter (MJ) should be 1 and 2[/B], or vice versa... I prefer the pure basketball side of things, so I would go with the best 2-point jumpshooter and assume that the best 2-point shooter would easily pick up threes and probably already showed great aptitude and potential in that area - the best 2-point jumpshooter would also be the best in the 70's when there was no 3-point line.... Btw, Curry has more MVP's than Kobe and won with Klay < Pau (a lot less).. Pau was a franchise player (expected to build something from scratch), while Klay never was.[/QUOTE]

No it doesn't. At all. Do I need to bring up that thing again?

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14936126]it’s actually better

curry doesn’t have the team hops, he doesn’t have the chokes, he doesn’t have the GOAT choke (2011), where lebron joined the 2nd and 4th highest PER in the league (Wade had FMVP experience as well), and went on to claim he’s going to get 8 titles in Miami and it’s “going to be easy” only to subsequently lose in the Finals while being outscored by 0 time all star, journeyman, undersized shooting guard, Jason Terry, despite Terry logging in 67 less minutes than Lebron during the Finals.

Bron has a bunch of empty stats from longevity but with his teamhops and finals disappointments, along with the goat choke, it really bombed his all time rating. There was a moment he could have been goat. It went really sideways for him after The Decision.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I certainly have the Chef over LeEPO and it's not even close. I value someone who doesn't shrink in bright lights.

Curry is a super star in his era, and a HOF'er ... that is all.

Steph is the only serious challenger to the status as the best in the last 25 years.

We know how I feel about Bron, but hard to say Steph is better. To me Curry is probably a tier 2 guy who usually plays like a tier 3, but he can come so close to tier 1 (which imo there isn’t anyone who is always playing on that level,) you have to plan for it. He’s more fire than Kobe or Ivo cuz 3s. He doesn’t need the ball to shift d.

I finally understand the way Steph seems underrated and overrated at once. He doesn’t always play and he doesn’t need to play at top form. But he is hot sauce on a different level.

Still not GOAT and he has no case over Bron. He’s closer to Kobe, a transformative player with cultural impact, but Bron’s resume is retarded. It’s prol true he’s getting empty stats now, but you gotta be hating to think people are gonna care too much after he retires.

Mj is the only one he’ll never be, but he’s top 2 arguable by resume and peak skill.

-Smak

He's the best since Kobe but I can't go as far as to say that he has a case for GOAT with 4 rings. Had he won in 2016 & had everything else played out the same way I could have made an argument for him.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14937047]He's the best since Kobe but I can't go as far as to say that he has a case for GOAT with 4 rings. Had he won in 2016 & had everything else played out the same way I could have made an argument for him.[/QUOTE]


:oldlol:

[QUOTE=Stephonit;14936994]Steph is the only serious challenger to the status as the best in the last 25 years.[/QUOTE]

Who has the status

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14937053]Who has the status[/QUOTE]

The conventional answer is Jordan but I give Russell and Kareem enough due that I can see insistence upon separating by era. The only player since Jordan who I can see as demarcating another era is Curry.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14937047]He's the best since Kobe but I can't go as far as to say that he has a case for GOAT with 4 rings. Had he won in 2016 & had everything else played out the same way I could have made an argument for him.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExeWQxdm1yYTF1cG02cTFtZjF3ZnB2aHcwbmcyZnhobXRmeWRpbGZzaSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/a7ukdWatoY8CI/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14937052]:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

He's the only player that led a dynasty in his era. Greatest RS ever. 4 - 2 in the Finals. 21 - 13 Finals record. Greatest shooter ever. Peak as good as anyone's. Arguably the most influential player ever.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14937077]He's the only player that led a dynasty in his era.[/QUOTE]

Never won FMVP over Durant

Just like Kobe didn't win FMVP over Shaq

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937079]Never won FMVP over Durant

Just like Kobe didn't win FMVP over Shaq[/QUOTE]

Shaq actually called kobe his "little brother"

Kobe was always a beachmade.

reason he deliberately sabotaged 2004 Finals in lu of 2004 FMVP.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;14937083]Shaq actually called kobe his "little brother"

Kobe was always a beachmade.

reason he deliberately sabotaged 2004 Finals in lu of 2004 FMVP.[/QUOTE]

Shaq also said Kobe was the best player in the world.

Be careful.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14937088]Shaq also said Kobe was the best player in the world.

Be careful.[/QUOTE]

[video=youtube;x5PDgv5y-S0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5PDgv5y-S0[/video]

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14937088]Shaq also said Kobe was the best player in the world.

Be careful.[/QUOTE]

when there is no weight on his shoulders to deliver anything.

when someone has already "gifted" him a 3peat championships before age 24.

Sure you look world's best by shot jocking at 44%FG. :lol

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14936390]The data don’t lie. Everything on that list looks pretty legit to be honest. The company who made that metric got bought out big time to do political shit. They don’t even do this small time nba stuff anymore unfortunately.

But is it truly a shocker that Lebron scores closer to James Harden than he does to Curry and Jokic?

Like we said eye test backs this up….Lebron pumps up the box score but his teams aren’t as efficient as a Jokic or Steph team. You can squirm around all you want claiming needs more help or whatever but according to his box score, Lebron has had an extended prime of around 20 years…if you want to argue he’s had such bad luck and all of his teammates are so bad…okay, it’s just gets a bit insane at some point.[/QUOTE]

You make a solid point here. I don't necessarily agree, but when it comes to Jokic and Magic, for their respected eras and careers, many people then and now will have them #1 or top 3. Their defense wasn't great either, but many will consider their offensive impact to make up for it.

Steph is in a similar category. And I'd argue that he's more impactful off the ball than with the ball in his hands. His style of play revolutionized the game and the system in which he's played. This cannot be argued, and I think there is some credence to what it is that you're saying.

Having said that, it's hard to get away from the postseason performances and him not winning a FMVP until 2022. We'll never know what happens in 2017 and 2018 without KD, but he had a chance in 2019.

In game 6, it was Klay carrying the team. Steph put up 21 points on a putrid 35%, including 27% from 3. In the 4th quarter he went 1-6 (16%). Once again, we found him to be underwhelming in situations where it mattered the most.

2022 was a sort of redemption, but it took pretty long for him to finally secure a FMVP.

Curry's just a shorter version of Reggie Miller.... runaround, catch and shoot.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14937100]Curry's just a shorter version of Reggie Miller.... runaround, catch and shoot.[/QUOTE]


That's idiotic. You obviously have Curry confused with Klay. You clearly haven't watched them play which explains your other low IQ takes

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14937099]

Having said that, it's hard to get away from the postseason performances and him not winning a FMVP until 2022. We'll never know what happens in 2017 and 2018 without KD, but he had a chance in 2019.

In game 6, it was Klay carrying the team. Steph put up 21 points on a putrid 35%, including 27% from 3. In the 4th quarter he went 1-6 (16%). Once again, we found him to be underwhelming in situations where it mattered the most.

2022 was a sort of redemption, but it took pretty long for him to finally secure a FMVP.[/QUOTE]

I think his bad performances in some big games has to do with his play style, not saying he is just a shooter, but when the majority of your attempts come from 3, there is going to be some stretches of games where you are simply cold no matter how good of a shooter you are & especially in the playoffs where teams tighten up their defense. His consistency was never on the level of a LeBron, MJ, or Magic because of this.

He had some all-time great regular seasons, in particular in 2016. But he never had an overall postseason run that was as magical as '91 MJ, '00 Shaq, '18 LeBron, '94 Hakeem, or '03 Duncan.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937104]I think his bad performances in some big games has to do with his play style, not saying he is just a shooter, but when the majority of your attempts come from 3, there is going to be some stretches of games where you are simply cold no matter how good of a shooter you are & especially in the playoffs where teams tighten up their defense. His consistency was never on the level of a LeBron, MJ, or Magic because of this.

He had some all-time great regular seasons, in particular in 2016. [B]But he never had an overall postseason run that was as magical as '91 MJ, '00 Shaq, '18 LeBron, '94 Hakeem, or '03 Duncan.[/B][/QUOTE]


Eh... in 2022 he definitely did. The Warriors weren't even expected to be title contenders and he led them to the chip averaging 31/6/5 on sniper efficiency and carried them when it looked like it was over.

[video=youtube_share;xlGCQ1uq5XE]https://youtu.be/xlGCQ1uq5XE?si=VmyuN_yUGLseS8GE[/video]

Literally led a underdog Championship squad with Andrew Wiggins as his 2nd option.

Grouping 2018 Lebron in that list when he didn't even win and his team got blown out by the biggest margin of defeat in NBA Finals history is [I]crazy[/I] work too.

[QUOTE=tpols;14937111]Eh... in 2022 he definitely did. [/QUOTE]

Curry was pretty "meh" leading up to the Finals that year. His series performance vs the Mavs & Grizzlies were mediocre.

His best overall postseason run came in 2017, the same year Durant won FMVP over him.

LeBron on the other hand in 2018 was a one man show averaging 35/9/9 on 62 TS% & basically willing his team to the Finals. It's probably the greatest individual run I have ever witnessed.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937117]LeBron on the other hand in 2018 was a one man show averaging 35/9/9 on 62 TS% [B]& basically willing his team to the Finals[/B]. It's probably the greatest individual run I have ever witnessed.[/QUOTE]

Yea but they beat rookie teenage Tatum and Brown Celtics to get there. The east was extremely weak. Curry beat the full form evolved version 4 years of experience later.

Nobody on Boston even averaged 20 ppg in their ECF vs Cleveland. They didn't have a single star player since Hayward snapped his leg in half and Kyrie was out.

[QUOTE=tpols;14937120]Yea but they beat rookie teenage Tatum and Brown Celtics to get there. The east was extremely weak. Curry beat the full form evolved version 4 years of experience later. Nobody on Boston even averaged 20 ppg in their ECF vs Cleveland. They didn't have a single star player since Hayward snapped his leg in half and Kyrie was out.[/QUOTE]

Cavs were a legit 15-20 win team without LeBron that year. As a team it was obvious to everyone that Indiana & Boston were better, but LeBron just went GOAT mode throughout that entire run. He also beat Boston the last two games without Kevin Love.

But this isn't about LeBron, this is about Curry. Are you secretly trying to deflect after you called his 2022 run legendary after I just showed you how mediocre he was vs Dallas & Memphis that year?

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937124]Cavs were a legit 15-20 win team without LeBron that year. [B]As a team it was obvious to everyone that Indiana & Boston were better[/B] but LeBron just went GOAT mode throughout that entire run. He also beat Boston the last two games without Kevin Love.

But this isn't about LeBron, this is about Curry. Are you secretly trying to deflect after you called his 2022 run legendary after I just showed you how mediocre he was vs Dallas & Memphis that year?[/QUOTE]

Lebron played fantastic in the east that run but the bolded isn't even remotely true.

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/0j0WR4cC/Screenshot-20240818-142126-Chrome.jpg[/IMG]

The 2018 Cleveland Cavs were huge favorites to come out of the East. And they didn't have any signifigant injuries like the Celtics did.

The Pacers were an astounding +125,000 odds to win the title and you name dropped them.

:roll:

The Cavs were by far the number 2 title contenders in that year backed by the above time stamped factual data.

Going the 3ball route and bringing up pre-season odds. Do you ever come up with your own original ideas? Cavs had a 30-22 record at one point and traded half their roster at the trade deadline because of how bad they were. And it was obvious to everyone watching how bad LeBron's teammates were during the playoffs. The money line tends to favor the team with the superstar and LeBron proved Vegas right because he carried his team.

You literally tried to put 2022 Curry's postseason run as "all-time great" despite having 2 bad series in that playoff run.

Embarrassing.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14937137]Going the 3ball route and bringing up pre-season odds. Do you ever come up with your own original ideas? Cavs had a 30-22 record at one point and traded half their roster at the trade deadline because of how bad they were. And it was obvious to everyone watching how bad LeBron's teammates were during the playoffs. The money line tends to favor the team with the superstar and LeBron proved Vegas right because he carried his team.

You literally tried to put 2022 Curry's postseason run as "all-time great" despite having 2 bad series in that playoff run.

Embarrassing.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention LeBron beats the Warriors in game 1 if it weren't for the most blatantly rigged officiating I've ever seen. Corrupt af. But he won't point that out.

[QUOTE=tpols;14937120]Yea but they beat rookie teenage Tatum and Brown Celtics to get there. The east was extremely weak. Curry beat the full form evolved version 4 years of experience later.

Nobody on Boston even averaged 20 ppg in their ECF vs Cleveland. They didn't have a single star player since Hayward snapped his leg in half and Kyrie was out.[/QUOTE]

Boston was up 3-2 in the series....Love played 5mins in game 6 and missed game 7.

The Celtics being without two of their All Stars in Kyrie and Hayward was a far bigger blow to Boston than anything Cleveland went through in 2018...

But the biggest thing that blew my mind was you hyping the Oladipo +125,000 odds underdogs as being better than the Cavs.

That's actually insane. :lol

Hayward wasn't an All-star that year. LeBron playing in his 8th consecutive conference Finals had much more milage than the Celtics combined that year.

Lebron choked vs the spurs and lebron stans go “he was only 22 years old!”

Then in 2018 lebron whoops on some 19 and 20 year old kids and it’s supposed to be some sort of blood bath


lmao