Jokic is the 4th best player of all time

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984871]RRR3's not lying that you sound like a young casual fan with posts like this :lol

What Hakeem did in '94 & '95, carrying one of the weakest championship rosters ever in '94, beating Malone/Stockton, Barkley/KJ, Robinson/Rodman & Shaq/Penny all on the road in '95, eviscerating Ewing & Robinson h2h, and winning MVP & DPOY absolutely puts him in argument with Jokic if we're talking strictly peaks. Not even LeBron & Jordan are clearly above that.[/QUOTE]

The post you just made is why I specially said in my OP that "accolades/resume" do not matter, Jokic is legit beyond that.

1994/1995 are still weak years in the 3-point era. Hakeem can enjoy being the 11th best player of all time, but he's an entire tier below Jokic.

Also you are just pointing out 2 years which is a short peak. Jokic is going on 5 years of peak and could easily have more.

Mask the Embiid is going to be seething over Jokic for years. Jokic has a ring without another all star and he can't stand it.

He keeps bringing up getting swept by the top seed Suns without his 2nd and 3rd options while Embiid is an ECF virgin in the weaker conference.

:roll:

Jamal Murray shot on 40% FG and 31% 3pt in the playoffs last year. His efficiency was horrible.

1995 Clyde put up 20/7/6 on a blistering 120 ORTG in the playoffs.

At what point will you accept reality? If Jokic had that version of Clyde it would be even easier. Guy was a top 10 SG of all time. Jamal Murray is a footnote.

[QUOTE=tpols;14984856]John Starks.

:lol

2/18.

That was Hakeems 2nd option.[/QUOTE]

Hakim’s defense is the only reason that game was even played.

Hakeems individual defense literally prevented the Knicks from winning the title in game 6 when he switched onto Starks and blocked a title winning 3 that would have made Starks finals mvp since he’d have had 30/8 that game. And of course Hakeem held Ewing to 6/20 on top of it so he wouldn’t win.

John Starks entire career narrative changed because Hakeem could switch onto an athletic guard at 28 feet keep up and have the most consequential block arguably in NBA history.

it’s the biggest play of Hakeem’s career and would definitely be the biggest of Jokics as well. But to the general public, it doesn’t even exist because iconic defense really doesn’t count. Starks hits that shot and wins New York the title? It might be the most famous shot in history or right there with Jordans shot in 98.

But he didn’t. Hakeem blocks it…and defense doesn’t matter.

not necessarily talking about your opinion, but it’s definitely the opinion of most casual fans.

Plays like that don’t even exist in memory.

I’m not sure most people could even name a single block in history other than LeBron on Iguodala.

It’s like people don’t miss shots because of the defense. It isn’t a balance. People score what they score and what they don’t score is because of them not scoring better…not because the defense did its job.

Oh well. Nothing to be done about it at this point.

[QUOTE=tpols;14984879]Jamal Murray shot on 40% FG and 31% 3pt in the playoffs last year. His efficiency was horrible.

1995 Clyde put up 20/7/6 on a blistering 120 ORTG in the playoffs.

At what point will you accept reality? If Jokic had that version of Clyde it would be even easier. Guy was a top 10 SG of all time. Jamal Murray is a footnote.[/QUOTE]

Hakeem averaged 28/12/6 against shaq......an all time great....
Hakeem averaged 26 and held Patrick Ewing......an all time great.... to 38% from the field and 18 ppg
meanwhile, jokic gets to go up against "the great" bam adabayo in the finals.

Hakeem all defensives teams 9. Jokic. 0
Rebounding titles hakeem 2. jokic 0


The only reason Jokic has a ring is because of Jamal Murray. You know it. I know it. the world know it. Hakeem has a ring with no help.....you cannot say the same

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14984881]Hakim’s defense is the only reason that game was even played.

Hakeems individual defense literally prevented the Knicks from winning the title in game 6 when he switched onto Starks and blocked a title winning 3 that would have made Starks finals mvp since he’d have had 30/8 that game. And of course Hakeem held Ewing to 6/20 on top of it so he wouldn’t win.

John Starks entire career narrative changed because Hakeem could switch onto an athletic guard at 28 feet keep up and have the most consequential block arguably in NBA history.

it’s the biggest play of Hakeem’s career and would definitely be the biggest of Jokics as well. But to the general public, it doesn’t even exist because iconic defense really doesn’t count. Starks hits that shot and wins New York the title? It might be the most famous shot in history or right there with Jordans shot in 98.

But he didn’t. Hakeem blocks it…and defense doesn’t matter.

not necessarily talking about your opinion, but it’s definitely the opinion of most casual fans.

Plays like that don’t even exist in memory.

I’m not sure most people could even name a single block in history other than LeBron on Iguodala.

It’s like people don’t miss shots because of the defense. It isn’t a balance. People score what they score and what they don’t score is because of them not scoring better…not because the defense did its job.

Oh well. Nothing to be done about it at this point.[/QUOTE]

Jokic has already surpassed Hakeem. Jokic is > Bird, so if you want to argue Hakeem > Jokic, then you have to argue Hakeem > Bird.

2025 Jokic's career at this point is basically where Lebron's career was in 2013 (before the playoffs).

No one was arguing Hakeem > Lebron by 2013.

Hakeem wasn't a consistent player. When he was fully engaged he was scary but that frequently wasn't the case. He wasn't one of those guys who gave full effort night after night. At times he would settle for jumpers rather than trying to put pressure on the rim, and his jumper was just ok.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14984881]Hakim’s defense is the only reason that game was even played.

Hakeems individual defense literally prevented the Knicks from winning the title in game 6 when he switched onto Starks and blocked a title winning 3 that would have made Starks finals mvp since he’d have had 30/8 that game. And of course Hakeem held Ewing to 6/20 on top of it so he wouldn’t win.

John Starks entire career narrative changed because Hakeem could switch onto an athletic guard at 28 feet keep up and have the most consequential block arguably in NBA history.

it’s the biggest play of Hakeem’s career and would definitely be the biggest of Jokics as well. But to the general public, it doesn’t even exist because iconic defense really doesn’t count. Starks hits that shot and wins New York the title? It might be the most famous shot in history or right there with Jordans shot in 98.

But he didn’t. Hakeem blocks it…and defense doesn’t matter.

not necessarily talking about your opinion, but it’s definitely the opinion of most casual fans.

Plays like that don’t even exist in memory.

I’m not sure most people could even name a single block in history other than LeBron on Iguodala.

It’s like people don’t miss shots because of the defense. It isn’t a balance. People score what they score and what they don’t score is because of them not scoring better…not because the defense did its job.

Oh well. Nothing to be done about it at this point.[/QUOTE]

Cmon man you know damn well John Starks wasn't a star 2nd option on a title team historically.

I was asked who did Hakeem have at shotgun and replied who did his opponent have? It wasn't all that different and that was the point.

[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14984883]Hakeem averaged 28/12/6 against shaq......an all time great....
Hakeem averaged 26 and held Patrick Ewing......an all time great.... to 38% from the field and 18 ppg
meanwhile, jokic gets to go up against "the great" bam adabayo in the finals.

Hakeem all defensives teams 9. Jokic. 0
Rebounding titles hakeem 2. jokic 0


The only reason Jokic has a ring is because of Jamal Murray. You know it. I know it. the world know it. Hakeem has a ring with no help.....you cannot say the same[/QUOTE]

Jamal Murray is Tyrese Maxey bro. They're literally the same talent. The difference is Yolk maximized and won with his guy and embiid... is a playoff crash out.

It doesn't have to be black vs white. If Jokic was Nigerian and played the exact same way we would still rep him because basketball is basketball and greatness can come in any size, shape or color.

It's just incredibly ironic it took the shape of a tall fat white guy with dumpy athleticism. :lol

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14984881]Hakim’s defense is the only reason that game was even played.

Hakeems individual defense literally prevented the Knicks from winning the title in game 6 when he switched onto Starks and blocked a title winning 3 that would have made Starks finals mvp since he’d have had 30/8 that game. And of course Hakeem held Ewing to 6/20 on top of it so he wouldn’t win.

John Starks entire career narrative changed because Hakeem could switch onto an athletic guard at 28 feet keep up and have the most consequential block arguably in NBA history.

it’s the biggest play of Hakeem’s career and would definitely be the biggest of Jokics as well. But to the general public, it doesn’t even exist because iconic defense really doesn’t count. Starks hits that shot and wins New York the title? It might be the most famous shot in history or right there with Jordans shot in 98.

But he didn’t. Hakeem blocks it…and defense doesn’t matter.

not necessarily talking about your opinion, but it’s definitely the opinion of most casual fans.

Plays like that don’t even exist in memory.

I’m not sure most people could even name a single block in history other than LeBron on Iguodala.

It’s like people don’t miss shots because of the defense. It isn’t a balance. People score what they score and what they don’t score is because of them not scoring better…not because the defense did its job.

Oh well. Nothing to be done about it at this point.[/QUOTE]

And it’s a lot of casual fans casual takes in here. Which is why most are accepting Jokic over Hakeem. Comedy hour.

[QUOTE=tpols;14984737]Nah I really think he's the GOAT. I want to see him play with a superstar sidekick though. Every other great player nowadays and even in the past got to play on loaded teams. Imagine if Jokic got to play with prime Penny, Kobe, and Wade like Shaq did instead of just jamal Murray whose a pipsqueak version of those guys. It would be an avalanche for Yolk.[/QUOTE]
Jokic has had plenty of help lmao. Murray has series better than Penny has ever had (tempted to say Kobe too because of efficiency).

The championship nuggets had 6 guys average double figures. Murray outscored Jokic in half the series they played while averaging 47/40/93 shooting splits:oldlol:

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984734][B]You can't make an argument for anyone besides Kareem/MJ/Lebron to be ahead of peak Jokic. [/B]This isn't a short peak either, we are on 5 years of absurd dominance. Jokic simply has had WAY less help than Kareem/MJ/Lebron, which isn't debatable.[/QUOTE]

Yes you can. Bird.

[QUOTE=Full Court;14984915]Yes you can. Bird.[/QUOTE]

No, not at all

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984871]RRR3's not lying that you sound like a young casual fan with posts like this :lol

What Hakeem did in '94 & '95, carrying one of the weakest championship rosters ever in '94, beating Malone/Stockton, Barkley/KJ, Robinson/Rodman & Shaq/Penny all on the road in '95, eviscerating Ewing & Robinson h2h, and winning MVP & DPOY absolutely puts him in argument with Jokic if we're talking strictly peaks. Not even LeBron & Jordan are clearly above that.[/QUOTE]
Yeah seriously, Hakeem won with Otis ****ing Thorpe as his number two. Thorpe was a fine player but hardly a championship number two, and the rest of the roster was really weak as well. Robert Horry was a major option on offense, and he was pretty much a spot up shooter for the rest of his career on title teams.

94 is one of the all time carry jobs, I can admit he had more help in 95 with Drexler though.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984884]Jokic has already surpassed Hakeem. Jokic is > Bird, so if you want to argue Hakeem > Jokic, then you have to argue Hakeem > Bird.

2025 Jokic's career at this point is basically where Lebron's career was in 2013 (before the playoffs).

No one was arguing Hakeem > Lebron by 2013.[/QUOTE]
This is Jokic's 10th season. Hakeem played 18, and was elite for most of them. Even if Jokic is better in your opinion, he'd have to have been WAY better to pass Hakeem while playing so much less.

Stop posting buzzfeed tier bait.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14984936]This is Jokic's 10th season. Hakeem played 18, and was elite for most of them. Even if Jokic is better in your opinion, he'd have to have been WAY better to pass Hakeem while playing so much less.

Stop posting buzzfeed tier bait.[/QUOTE]

Jokic IS WAY BETTER. What are you not understanding? Jokic is number 1 all time is a ton of advanced stats. Literally NUMBER ONE ahead of MJ/Lebron.

Jokic is 29 years old. At 29, MJ/Lebron were already ahead of Hakeem all time. Jokic doesn't need to play more, he's already passed Hakeem :lol

MJ age 21-29: 29.8 PER, 58.9 TS%, .276 WS/48, 10.9 BPM

Lebron age 21-29: 29.2 PER, 59.4 TS%, .268 WS/48, 10.2 BPM

Jokic age 21-29: 29 PER, 64.1 TS%, .266 WS/48, 10.8 BPM

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984938]Jokic IS WAY BETTER. What are you not understanding? Jokic is number 1 all time is a ton of advanced stats. Literally NUMBER ONE ahead of MJ/Lebron.

Jokic is 29 years old. At 29, MJ/Lebron were already ahead of Hakeem all time. Jokic doesn't need to play more, he's already passed Hakeem :lol

MJ age 21-29: 29.8 PER, 58.9 TS%, .276 WS/48, 10.9 BPM

Lebron age 21-29: 29.2 PER, 59.4 TS%, .268 WS/48, 10.2 BPM

Jokic age 21-29: 29 PER, 64.1 TS%, .266 WS/48, 10.8 BPM[/QUOTE]
None of those stats measure defense even half decently, we know Jokic is better than Hakeem on offense already :hammerhead:

[QUOTE=RRR3;14984939]None of those stats measure defense even half decently, we know Jokic is better than Hakeem on offense already :hammerhead:[/QUOTE]

Defense doesn't make up for the gap everywhere else compared to Jokic. Seriously, so many people have Magic Johnson as a top five player of all time. Magic's defense wasn't any better than Jokic, and Magic played on WAY more stacked teams.

Being good at defense is NOT a requirement for being a top 5 player of all time.

Hakeem isn't even a top 10 player of all time so it's hilarious that you are pushing so hard against this.

Let's go ahead and see your top 10 players of all time.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984941]Defense doesn't make up for the gap everywhere else compared to Jokic. Seriously, so many people have Magic Johnson as a top five player of all time. Magic's defense wasn't any better than Jokic, and Magic played on WAY more stacked teams.

Being good at defense is NOT a requirement for being a top 5 player of all time.

Hakeem isn't even a top 10 player of all time so it's hilarious that you are pushing so hard against this.[/QUOTE]
Being good at defense is a lot more important when you play CENTER, StrongBuzzfeed

[QUOTE=RRR3;14984942]Being good at defense is a lot more important when you play CENTER, StrongBuzzfeed[/QUOTE]

List your top ten all time so I know what kind of stupid I am dealing with here.

Hakeem had an amazing peak and is probably the best defensive player since the merger, but tontoz is right that he had some issues with consistency. It seemed like he kinda regressed as a player during the early 90's then came back and played out of his mind from '93-'95. He is a player that gets judged mostly by his peak (which is amazing), while fans ignore that there was a 5 year period where he couldn't get out of the first round, even missing the playoffs in '92.

As far as who had the better peak, I think it's about preference and you could make a great case for both.

I would take Jokic's peak over the peak of guys like Magic, Curry, Kobe, & Bird. Some fans still don't want to accept this yet, but it's the truth.

Why say “I would take his peak” then end it with it’s the truth? You stay trying to convince people your opinion is a fact. You can’t help yourself. It’s hilarious.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984941]Defense doesn't make up for the gap everywhere else compared to Jokic. Seriously, so many people have Magic Johnson as a top five player of all time. Magic's defense wasn't any better than Jokic, and Magic played on WAY more stacked teams.

Being good at defense is NOT a requirement for being a top 5 player of all time.

Hakeem isn't even a top 10 player of all time so it's hilarious that you are pushing so hard against this.

Let's go ahead and see your top 10 players of all time.[/QUOTE]
Magic led the league in steals early in his career.
He was as lethal a competitor as anybody you can name, he just did it with a smile. Bird knew that.
He spent 75% of his career in the Finals. Literally NO player has ever done what he did in the Finals his rookie year.
People have him in the top 5 because he is. If not for the HIV he would be in the GOAT conversation.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984867]He would need to be with great offensive players to have a great offense. That never happened in the players'primes. But no one is saying that olajuwon is just as good as an overall offensive player. Just that he is a great offensive player along with being one of the greatest defensive players of all time. And yes, defense does matter.[/QUOTE]

Who are the great offensive players Jokic is playing with? They fit well as a team, but only because Jokic is there. With Jokic playing, their offensive rating is the best in the league. When Jokic sits, there offensively rating is the worst in the league.

I find Jokic's and Hakeem's careers somewhat similar in that they spent huge chunks of their prime stuck with a shit sandwich in terms of help. Jokic actually probably has better talent on paper but Murray's injuries in 2021 and 2022 took the Nuggets straight out of contention. Currently in this moment, I'd have Hakeem above Jokic because his prime has been much longer but assuming Jokic has another few prime years they'll be neck and neck on my all time list. In other words, Jokic will enter that tier.

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt;14985013]Who are the great offensive players Jokic is playing with? They fit well as a team, but only because Jokic is there. With Jokic playing, their offensive rating is the best in the league. When Jokic sits, there offensively rating is the worst in the league.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say Jokic played with great offensive players so what is this about? Everyone concedes that Jokic is better offensively. Vs olajuwon the argument is more focused on the important fact that along with being a great offensive player olajuwon was one of the greatest defensive players of all time. Jokic is not that.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14984742]Why would Magic and Bird not be on this list lol. Or Curry.[/QUOTE]

cause they dont have a GOAT tier peak thats why :lol

[QUOTE=RRR3;14984935]Yeah seriously, Hakeem won with Otis ****ing Thorpe as his number two. Thorpe was a fine player but hardly a championship number two, and the rest of the roster was really weak as well. Robert Horry was a major option on offense, and he was pretty much a spot up shooter for the rest of his career on title teams.

94 is one of the all time carry jobs, I can admit he had more help in 95 with Drexler though.[/QUOTE]

Havnt you been spamming for years about how the 90’s had terrible competition and today’s players are so much better?




Weird.

[QUOTE=Bankaii;14984911]Jokic has had plenty of help lmao. Murray has series better than Penny has ever had (tempted to say Kobe too because of efficiency).

The championship nuggets had 6 guys average double figures. Murray outscored Jokic in half the series they played while averaging 47/40/93 shooting splits:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

No he hasn't.

Jamal Murray is the only great player he's ever played with. And he's just an average All Star talent. Kobe, Wade and Penny were superstars. Especially Kobe and Wade.

Most other all time great got to play with with true superstar at one point or another. Even Hakeem got to play with Clyde Drexler who balled out and is one of the GOAT shooting guards.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14985027]I didn't say Jokic played with great offensive players so what is this about? [B]Everyone concedes that Jokic is better offensively.[/B] Vs olajuwon the argument is more focused on the important fact that along with being a great offensive player olajuwon was one of the greatest defensive players of all time. Jokic is not that.[/QUOTE]

You definitely weren't conceding that yesterday.

And if it was as simple as defense + offense = players worth, Gary Payton would be considered > Magic Johnson. But that doesn't add up. Offensive brilliance can be more individual based. Defense is usually more of a team and coach thing.

[QUOTE=tpols;14985044]You definitely weren't conceding that yesterday.

And if it was as simple as defense + offense = players worth, Gary Payton would be considered > Magic Johnson. But that doesn't add up. Offensive brilliance can be more individual based. Defense is usually more of a team and coach thing.[/QUOTE]
Show where I said olajuwon was the better scorer. Because I can show you trying to act like passing is just as important as the entire category of defense. Your lies and stupidity are not an actual point.

overrated

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14985051]Show where I said olajuwon was the better scorer. [B]Because I can show you trying to act like passing is just as important as the entire category of defense. [/B]Your lies and stupidity are not an actual point.[/QUOTE]

It absolutely can be. Passing on the level of Magic or Jokic has absolutely tremendous impact on basketball games. I'm actually astonished that you don't realize that.

He's top 20. I'll give you that. Anything higher will need more time to marinate.

[QUOTE=tpols;14985057]It absolutely can be. Passing on the level of Magic or Jokic has absolutely tremendous impact on basketball games. I'm actually astonished that you don't realize that.[/QUOTE]

You and I disagree on some things but we agree on Jokic which is great to see.

So many people in this thread are holding Jokic to a higher standard than other all time greats.

Jokic is on an absurd 5 year peak. He got unlucky considering his best teammates were injured in the playoffs during the first two years of his peak.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14985065]You and I disagree on some things but we agree on Jokic which is great to see.

So many people in this thread are holding Jokic to a higher standard than other all time greats.

Jokic is on an absurd 5 year peak. He got unlucky considering his best teammates were injured in the playoffs during the first two years of his peak.[/QUOTE]

Thank you bro. Its just like anything else. Magics passing = Mutumbos defense. Or Hakeems. Scoring, passing, rebounding, and defense. If you're super elite at any of them the impact is felt. Dennis Rodman was almost a superstar on rebounding alone.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14984742]Why would Magic and Bird not be on this list lol. Or Curry.[/QUOTE]

Cause Magic didn't play defense

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14985067]Cause Magic didn't play defense[/QUOTE]

And he won 5 rings doing that. And was still leading teams to the Finals even when he had AIDs and no Kareem.

True offensive brilliance is something else. The ball is in the offense hands. Magic could let you run a layup line, laugh and do the same thing 0n the other end but better. And then win.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984762]Five years of peak MJ/Lebron play is me being a "prisoner of the moment"? :biggums:

Jokic is literally a BETTER/BIGGER version of Larry Bird.

[b]Magic -> Lebron[/b]
Bird -> Jokic


This is the evolution of two players widely considered top 10 all time, so of course Lebron/Jokic will rank higher.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: ... no

[QUOTE=tpols;14985069]And he won 5 rings doing that. And was still leading teams to the Finals even when he had AIDs and no Kareem.

True offensive brilliance is something else. The ball is in the offense hands. Magic could let you run a layup line, laugh and do the same thing 0n the other end but better. And then win.[/QUOTE]
He saw his contending days were done and faked AIDS. He thought it was better to quit than fade away gracefully.