Boston has thrown Porziņģis out of the boat as well.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018131]Sure let's ignore the fact that Ingram was drafted by the Lakers and played with years of lottery picks as well as one of the greatest players of all time. A team that promptly won a championship after they traded him. And let's also ignore that in his second year Brown led the Celtics (alongside another one of your favorites) to the conference finals after the Celtics two best players got injured. But it's all because Ingram got drafted by the Pelicans (who didn't draft him).[/QUOTE]

He played for bad Laker teams and got a blood clot as soon as he started taking that next step which cut his season short. On the Pels he never had a chance to do anything because Zion was hurt every single year.

Brown was the 3rd-4th best player on a ECF team his 2nd year, great.. A team that won a Game 7 without him and was up 1 - 0 in the next series before he even played.

Brown was drafted to a team that won 48 games, Tatum got drafted to a team that won 53.. You can't be serious.

You continue to ignore that Irving and Hayward had season-ending injuries. The team record they got led to by Isaiah Thomas the year before is completely irrelevant when he's playing in Cleveland. Why are you always so full of shit? You act like no one knows how these things went down. Even if I wasn't watching Google exists. Knock it off.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018183]You continue to ignore that Irving and Hayward had season-ending injuries. The team record they got led to by Isaiah Thomas the year before is completely irrelevant when he's playing in Cleveland. Why are you always so full of shit? You act like no one knows how these things went down. Even if I wasn't watching Google exists. Knock it off.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that you don't see the other side of the coin and think we don't have Google also. Because you're tallying ECF appearances for a rookie who played all of 12 minutes per game in the playoffs with upside down defensive stats and poor efficiency as if he had any role or influence at all.

You don't think you have any bias and pretend as if facts don't exist.

[QUOTE=beasted;15018186]The problem is that you don't see the other side of the coin and think we don't have Google also. Because you're tallying ECF appearances for a rookie who played all of 12 minutes per game in the playoffs with upside down defensive stats and poor efficiency as if he had any role or influence at all.

You don't think you have any bias and pretend as if facts don't exist.[/QUOTE] Wrong again. Nowhere do I talk about Jaylen Brown's rookie ECF appearance as if it was an accomplishment. I consistently mention five ECF appearances. But guess what? He's been to six. Yes, facts are important You should stick to them. :no:

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018192]Wrong again. Nowhere do I talk about Jaylen Brown's rookie ECF appearance as if it was an accomplishment. I consistently mention five ECF appearances. But guess what? He's been to six. Yes, facts are important You should stick to them. :no:[/QUOTE]

You clearly said been part of 6 in this same thread, as if he contributed in any meaningful way just because he played garbage time 5 minutes a game in his rookie season ECF. THOSE are the facts.

With that said... acknowledging that one of those years was not sure to his own play, before we rose the voices in beasted head again...6 Conference Finals in nine years is one hell of a ratio. And that's with one of those years they came up short him getting a season-ending injury and another of those years he didn't get a chance to lead the team the same way, losing his starting job with Hayward's return. That's an amazing ratio to think about.

[QUOTE=beasted;15018196]You clearly said been part of 6 in this same thread, as if he contributed in any meaningful way just because he played garbage time 5 minutes a game in his rookie season ECF. THOSE are the facts.[/QUOTE]
This is sad. He was on the team as a rookie, so yes, he was "a part of" an ECF team as a rookie. Did not say he led it. Just that he was a part of it. You're getting desperate. This is pathetic. Go to sleep.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018199]This is sad. He was on the team as a rookie, so yes, he was "a part of" an ECF team as a rookie. Did not say he led it. Just that he was a part of it. You're getting desperate. This is pathetic. Go to sleep.[/QUOTE]

No, no, no...:no:

You can't call someone else out for stating facts under the backdrop of bad context when you're doing the same. You need to finish your beer and step back inside off your porch, old man.

You need someone to explain to you what the word "part" means? Go argue with Miriam Webster.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018183]You continue to ignore that Irving and Hayward had season-ending injuries. The team record they got led to by Isaiah Thomas the year before is completely irrelevant when he's playing in Cleveland. Why are you always so full of shit? You act like no one knows how these things went down. Even if I wasn't watching Google exists. Knock it off.[/QUOTE]

You're grasping at straws here. Celtics were a good team, a high seed because of Kyrie in the RS and they only had to beat the likes of Milwaukee and Philly who had next to no Playoff experience at the time and no HCA.

I'm not even sure what your argument is. I guess the rebuilding Laker squads and the Pelicans were comparable to the situation in Boston at the time. Yikes.

Lmao a poster brings up statistical evidence about Brown’s offense being below Derozan

Rmwg: but he has all star appearances and fmvp!

:roll:

rmwg is the ultimate homer casual

[QUOTE=ImKobe;15018308]You're grasping at straws here. Celtics were a good team, a high seed because of Kyrie in the RS and they only had to beat the likes of Milwaukee and Philly who had next to no Playoff experience at the time and no HCA.

I'm not even sure what your argument is. I guess the rebuilding Laker squads and the Pelicans were comparable to the situation in Boston at the time. Yikes.[/QUOTE] The winning percentage with and without Irving was the same and more importantly Irving did not play in the playoffs. Again you try to ignore easily researched facts that I already knew. But if comparing second season Brown to what Ingram couldn't do playing with LeBron James I'll tell you what: pull out any part of Ingram's playoff career and show something as impressive as leading a team to the conference finals

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15018315]Lmao a poster brings up statistical evidence about Brown’s offense being below Derozan

Rmwg: but he has all star appearances and fmvp!

:roll:

rmwg is the ultimate homer casual[/QUOTE]
With all the allstar teams Brown had made over Derozan there must be a lot of gone casuals. Or maybe you're just an idiot.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018326]With all the allstar teams Brown had made over Derozan there must be a lot of gone casuals. Or maybe you're just an idiot.[/QUOTE]

Bringing up something as pointless as all star games when people are citing multiple advanced stats is as low iq as it gets.

Par for the course I guess.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018326]With all the allstar teams Brown had made over Derozan there must be a lot of gone casuals. Or maybe you're just an idiot.[/QUOTE]

Youre done-zo bro. Just like how New York beat you up after you criticized them all year. Boston is going to be lotto without the whole crew Tatum and Brown ain't gonna save you.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15018339]Bringing up something as pointless as all star games when people are citing multiple advanced stats is as low iq as it gets.

Par for the course I guess.[/QUOTE]
There are more important things in the basketball world than "rAPM." Let me know when the NBA starts holding an annual awards weekend for honoring their best players based on this random advanced stat, the formula for which you would have to look up because you don't actually know what it means. Or much else beyond your pusher's phone number.

[QUOTE=tpols;15018342]Youre done-zo bro. Just like how New York beat you up after you criticized them all year. Boston is going to be lotto without the whole crew Tatum and Brown ain't gonna save you.[/QUOTE]
Tatum and Brown made the Conference Finals 5 of the 8 years they played together and have never even lost in the first round the years that they both played in the playoffs. They may choose to tank next year but even that is doubtful if they keep White and Brown. If Tatum comes back strong they will resume their place in the upper echelon.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018368]There are more important things in the basketball world than "rAPM." Let me know when the NBA starts holding an annual awards weekend for honoring their best players based on this random advanced stat, the formula for which you would have to look up because you don't actually know what it means. Or much else beyond your pusher's phone number.[/QUOTE]

lmfao

I do understand it. It’s plus minus refined through ridge regression to weigh the value of players in context of the plus minus.

Sometimes a player can have high raw plus minus if he was playing against a lot of second unit guys on the other team consistently. Or had playing time in garbage time. RAPM will not give as much credit to this player because it weighs in the quality of the players/lineup they are facing.

And it’s not just RAPM, like the other poster said, Derozen has him beat in many others as well. Knowing you, you will spaz out and not understand any of the stats and project your low iq that no one else does either. We all get it. You don’t. You having a low iq and not understanding statistics isn’t a valid talking point.

You are such a fat idiot. It’s quite insane.

You failed to post the formula of course. Idiots propping things they don't understand often post crap like you are right now. Meanwhile 30 out of 30 GMs would take Brown over Derozan.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018373]You failed to post the formula of course. Idiots propping things they don't understand often post crap like you are right now. Meanwhile 30 out of 30 GMs would take Brown over Derozan.[/QUOTE]

I’m not going to do research for you that you won’t even understand. Educate your own fat ass and stop begging other people to do it for you.

You are straw manning, no one said derozan is better than Brown. The poster said if you look at it statistically Derozan has Brown beat in a lot of areas offensively.

So you don't understand rAPM. Already knew that thanks. The door's to the left.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018378]So you don't understand rAPM. Already knew that thanks. The door's to the left.[/QUOTE]

I just explained it to you :roll:

Dumb ass fat f.uck

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15018379]I just explained it to you :roll:

Dumb ass fat f.uck[/QUOTE] No you posted what it is supposed to represent. The actual formula, which you clearly do not understand, is not being posted and I "suspect" you have never actually seen it. If you had seen it and understood it you would shut me up with an intelligent post instead of the repetitive shitposting you always do.

RAPM supposedly adjusts plus-minus to account for one player having better teammates than another. Ok, how?When he was a Bull what did the RAPM formula do to account for him playing with Zach Lavine vs Brown playing with Tatum? Advanced stat formula are often influenced by the creator of the formulas opinion on the value of various stats. So which stat did the RAPM creator multiply by 0.79 or whatever random number they thought led to a more balanced result? How did they actually use "linear regression" (it's just an x vs y formula dumbass)?

You can't answer these questions because you don't know what you are talking about. Calling your knowledge here"superficial" would actually be overrating it.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018383]No you posted what it is supposed to represent. The actual formula, which you clearly do not understand, is not being posted and I "suspect" you have never actually seen it. If you had seen it and understood it you would shut me up with an intelligent post instead of the repetitive shitposting you always do.

RAPM supposedly adjusts plus-minus to account for one player having better teammates than another. Ok, how?When he was a Bull what did the RAPM formula do to account for him playing with Zach Lavine vs Brown playing with Tatum? Advanced stat formula are often influenced by the creator of the formulas opinion on the value of various stats. So which stat did the RAPM creator multiply by 0.79 or whatever random number they thought led to a more balanced result? How did they actually use "linear regression" (it's just an x vs y formula dumbass)?

You can't answer these questions because you don't know what you are talking about. Calling your knowledge here"superficial" would actually be overrating it.[/QUOTE]

Figure it out fat man.

Saying “I’m too stupid to understand it” isn’t a valid talking point.

Still pretending your ignorance isn't obvious? Have fun.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018373]You failed to post the formula of course. Idiots propping things they don't understand often post crap like you are right now. [B]Meanwhile 30 out of 30 GMs would take Brown over Derozan.[/B][/QUOTE]

For just one season, with both at current salary (Demar making half what Brown makes) I do not think it would be 30 out of 30.

If you remove the long term value difference due to their ages, and just put each guy on a team and try to build around them for one season right now? It's not that big a difference. DeRozan IS a better and more consistent scorer, which is clear just from watching them play, so it's no surprise the metrics back it up as well. JB is a much better defender and probably a bit better playmaker. Overall they're not that different in impact IMO. JB has been fortunate to play on much better teams. Straight up I'd rather have Brown as most people would, but with the extra 25 million in salary you're gonna be able to put a better player next to Derozan, which probably makes their respective values close to even. Possibly even slighty favoring Derozan.

Some GM's would take Brown at his 50 million dollar salary, but I'm sure some would take Demar at $25M and the extra flexibility. Again, especially if it's just with an eye toward the next season or two, not in picking a long term cornerstone.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;15018394]For just one season, with both at current salary (Demar making half what Brown makes) I do not think it would be 30 out of 30.

If you remove the long term value difference due to their ages, and just put each guy on a team and try to build around them for one season right now? It's not that big a difference. DeRozan IS a better and more consistent scorer, which is clear just from watching them play, so it's no surprise the metrics back it up as well. JB is a much better defender and probably a bit better playmaker. Overall they're not that different in impact IMO. JB has been fortunate to play on much better teams. Straight up I'd rather have Brown as most people would, but with the extra 25 million in salary you're gonna be able to put a better player next to Derozan, which probably makes their respective values close to even. Possibly even slighty favoring Derozan.

Some GM's would take Brown at his 50 million dollar salary, but I'm sure some would take Demar at $25M and the extra flexibility. Again, especially if it's just with an eye toward the next season or two, not in picking a long term cornerstone.[/QUOTE]

No no, this makes no sense. Brown by himself is better than Derozan + Reid, or Derozan + Josh Hart + $6M left over, or better than Derozan + JJJ, don't you see his Finals MVP??

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018383]No you posted what it is supposed to represent. The actual formula, which you clearly do not understand, is not being posted and I "suspect" you have never actually seen it. If you had seen it and understood it you would shut me up with an intelligent post instead of the repetitive shitposting you always do.

RAPM supposedly adjusts plus-minus to account for one player having better teammates than another. Ok, how?When he was a Bull what did the RAPM formula do to account for him playing with Zach Lavine vs Brown playing with Tatum? Advanced stat formula are often influenced by the creator of the formulas opinion on the value of various stats. So which stat did the RAPM creator multiply by 0.79 or whatever random number they thought led to a more balanced result? How did they actually use "linear regression" (it's just an x vs y formula dumbass)?

You can't answer these questions because you don't know what you are talking about. Calling your knowledge here"superficial" would actually be overrating it.[/QUOTE]

Apm uses a linear regression. No it’s not just a x and y formula. You can solve for as many variables as you want not just one. A 5 man lineup vs another 5 man lineup will produce some plus minus. You take every scenario and solve for every player. When you have too many variables you have a multicollinearity problem which means multiple variable are too correlated so you can’t isolate impact. In nba terms means say Tatum plays so many of his minutes with brown so is his plus minus good because of himself or because of brown. You can determine that by watching the games but that’s purely subjective a stat isn’t that.

Idk the Math to ridge regression well but rapm uses it to take care of the multicollinearity problem so there’s much less of a is Tatum only good because he plays with brown problem. [url]https://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?t=8232[/url]. This thread explains it better than me. Yes you have to pick some lambda but you use cross validation to pick out those values it’s not based on creators biased opinion about nba players. That means you divide say a whole season into multiple datasets(the program does it for you). You run your regression on the other datasets to make sure it performs well on every dataset not just the initial one you test on. You bringing up the 0.79 like you’re talking about PER shows you don’t know the stat. Source: I did this damn shit in stats class even though I’m rusty.

Also there are other ways to take of multicollinearoty mainly just having multi year larger sample sizes. Say you think Derozan was only good because of lowry. You can’t really say that if his 3 yr apm including his years in San Antonio were good and you have more minutes of Derozan playing without Lowry

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018324]The winning percentage with and without Irving was the same and more importantly Irving did not play in the playoffs. Again you try to ignore easily researched facts that I already knew. But if comparing second season Brown to what Ingram couldn't do playing with LeBron James I'll tell you what: pull out any part of Ingram's playoff career and show something as impressive as leading a team to the conference finals[/QUOTE]

What Ingram couldn't do? He had to sit out the rest of his season because of a blood clot.. He grew into a #2 role that year playing next to Lebron and averaged over 20 a game on elite efficiency for months before he was forced to stop playing. Him leading the Pelicans to the Playoffs (a team that was 7 - 20 without him) with Zion sitting out the '22 season was more impressive than Brown being a #3 on a team that won 2 series with home court.


Either way, Brown is not worth the supermax and the Celtics should look to move him if they want to build a new contender around Tatum. They're taking offers for Brown/White as we speak.

Kblaze still has that stupid Spider-Man thing going. At least he is a bulls fan. Boston has almost 3/4 of a billion dollars invested. They have to shed payroll somehow. And here is one way

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;15017335]Multiple reputable people have said they started listening to offers for Brown too though they aren’t outright soliciting them. Apparently it’s gone from ignoring them to considering it.

They really might go scorched earth. They really could get themselves a thunder like haul where they have 20ish first round picks the next 5 to 7 years if they wanted to.

If they get rid of brown, they might as well try to find four first rounders for white as well.

Get themselves more than a dozen total picks have 80 or 90 million in cap space tank next season And see who wants to come play with Tatum and all the first rounders in the world.

if you’re gonna blow it up, don’t **** around with it.[/QUOTE]

Kblaze is most likely Asian with a small peen

[QUOTE=beasted;15018398]No no, this makes no sense. Brown by himself is better than Derozan + Reid, or Derozan + Josh Hart + $6M left over, or better than Derozan + JJJ, don't you see his Finals MVP??[/QUOTE]
Brown by himself does have more trade value than any of those combinations.[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;15018403]Apm uses a linear regression. No it’s not just a x and y formula. You can solve for as many variables as you want not just one. A 5 man lineup vs another 5 man lineup will produce some plus minus. You take every scenario and solve for every player. When you have too many variables you have a multicollinearity problem which means multiple variable are too correlated so you can’t isolate impact. In nba terms means say Tatum plays so many of his minutes with brown so is his plus minus good because of himself or because of brown. You can determine that by watching the games but that’s purely subjective a stat isn’t that.[/quote]It's an a,b, c, d,e....formula. Which no one discussing it in this thread actually knows.[QUOTE]Idk the Math to ridge regression well but rapm uses it to take care of the multicollinearity problem [/QUOTE]I give you a small amount of credit for honesty but this line means that you don't truly understand RAPM, you just know what it's supposed to represent. [QUOTE]You bringing up the 0.79 like you’re talking about PER shows you don’t know the stat.[/QUOTE]I never said I did, Been pretty upfront about not valuing it at all because most of the people talking about it don't know where the number is coming from. Real world fans don't care about this at all, never even heard of it.[QUOTE=ImKobe;15018415]What Ingram couldn't do? He had to sit out the rest of his season because of a blood clot.. He grew into a #2 role that year playing next to Lebron and averaged over 20 a game on elite efficiency for months before he was forced to stop playing. Him leading the Pelicans to the Playoffs (a team that was 7 - 20 without him) with Zion sitting out the '22 season was more impressive than Brown being a #3 on a team that won 2 series with home court.[/quote]9 years of excuses and counting.


[quote]Either way, Brown is not worth the supermax and the Celtics should look to move him if they want to build a new contender around Tatum. They're taking offers for Brown/White as we speak.[/QUOTE]And yet somehow it's other teams trying to trade for him with his supermax and the Celtics saying"no."

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018445]Brown by himself does have more trade value than any of those combinations.It's an a,b, c, d,e....formula. Which no one discussing it in this thread actually knows.I give you a small amount of credit for honesty but this line means that you don't truly understand RAPM, you just know what it's supposed to represent. I never said I did, Been pretty upfront about not valuing it at all because most of the people talking about it don't know where the number is coming from. Real world fans don't care about this at all, never even heard of it.9 years of excuses and counting.


And yet somehow it's other teams trying to trade for him with his supermax and the Celtics saying"no."[/QUOTE]

A,b,c,d,e jist represent the 5 players. Easier to not explain it in a too mathey way on this forum however so I don’t. I mean I only don’t know the math too well though if I put some time in I could make my own rapm I think. It uses a different regression than linear regression that’s the main difference. I do know how cross validation works it’s a really good method to take estimate the lambda. You’ll get a slightly different lambda and different results because of variance not bias. A bunch of people online have coded and produced their own rapm creator posted his methodology.

Fans don’t care but who cares about what we think. NBA front offices use them and send bunch of guys to Sloan every year. Rapm is a bit outdated but there are better impact metrics out there not even publicly available. The reason pipm isn’t publicly available anymore is the creator got hired by the wizards. Front offices are using some all in one metric

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;15018445]Brown by himself does have more trade value than any of those combinations.[/QUOTE]
You have a nasty habit of bringing up totally irrelevant points during a discussion, such as a 2023-24 Finals MVP when comparing two player's performances in the 2024-25 season.

As an FYI, my reply was to this post and in the context framework of this post which has absolutely nothing to do with trade value, even though I don't agree with your position anyway.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;15018394][B]For just one season, with both at current salary (Demar making half what Brown makes) I do not think it would be 30 out of 30. [/B]
[B]
If you remove the long term value difference due to their ages, and just put each guy on a team and try to build around them for one season right now? It's not that big a difference[/B]. DeRozan IS a better and more consistent scorer, which is clear just from watching them play, so it's no surprise the metrics back it up as well. JB is a much better defender and probably a bit better playmaker. Overall they're not that different in impact IMO. JB has been fortunate to play on much better teams. [B]Straight up I'd rather have Brown as most people would, but with the extra 25 million in salary you're gonna be able to put a better player next to Derozan, which probably makes their respective values close to even. Possibly even slighty favoring Derozan. [/B]

[B]Some GM's would take Brown at his 50 million dollar salary, but I'm sure some would take Demar at $25M and the extra flexibility. Again, especially if it's just with an eye toward the next season or two, not in picking a long term cornerstone.[/B][/QUOTE]

Boston gave it a great run but this isn’t baseball. Their payroll is too high, way too high. With key players coming off of serious injuries, they will shed more players since they didn’t win a thing. Go Thunder!