09' Mo outproduced 16' Klay

.
.
mo's spacing UNLOCKED lebron's game:



[indent]Regular season

08' Lebron....... 29.1 PER.... 10.9 BPM.... 0.242 WS/48..... 9.8 VORP
09' Lebron....... 31.7 PER.... 13.2 BPM.... 0.318 WS/48... 11.8 VORP


Playoffs

08' Lebron....... 24.3 PER... 10.1 BPM.... 0.187 WS/48.... 1.7 VORP
09' Lebron....... 37.4 PER... 17.2 BPM.... 0.399 WS/48.... 2.9 VORP[/indent]



^^^^ due to that, every coach thereafter knew that Lebron NEEDS SPACING.. Otoh, guys with great jumpshooting from mid-range or three-point range can shoot over packed paints and don't need spacing, such as SGA, MJ, or Kobe.. i.e. MJ and Kobe won with bad 3-point shooting teams, while SGA's team shot horribly in the playoffs and Finals (30%).

Ultimately, lebron was LOCKED UP in the 07' and 08' Playoffs, but Mo's spacing saved Lebron from making it 3 years in a row... The success of Mo's all-star spacing shows that a historic bricklayer like Pippen could never unlock LeDrive's game and win 66 games.. Pippen literally told Rachel Nichols that he couldn't space the floor [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s]here[/url]

[QUOTE=3ba11;15025646].
.
mo's spacing UNLOCKED lebron's game:



[indent]Regular season

08' Lebron....... 29.1 PER.... 10.9 BPM.... 0.242 WS/48..... 9.8 VORP
09' Lebron....... 31.7 PER.... 13.2 BPM.... 0.318 WS/48... 11.8 VORP


Playoffs

08' Lebron....... 24.3 PER... 10.1 BPM.... 0.187 WS/48.... 1.7 VORP
09' Lebron....... 37.4 PER... 17.2 BPM.... 0.399 WS/48.... 2.9 VORP[/indent]



^^^^ due to that, every coach thereafter knew that Lebron NEEDS SPACING.. Otoh, guys with great jumpshooting from mid-range or three-point range can shoot over packed paints and don't need spacing, such as SGA, MJ, or Kobe.. i.e. MJ and Kobe won with bad 3-point shooting teams, while SGA's team shot horribly in the playoffs and Finals (30%).

Ultimately, lebron was LOCKED UP in the 07' and 08' Playoffs, but Mo's spacing saved Lebron from making it 3 years in a row... The success of Mo's all-star spacing shows that a historic bricklayer like Pippen could never unlock LeDrive's game and win 66 games.. Pippen literally told Rachel Nichols that he couldn't space the floor [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s]here[/url][/QUOTE]
ALL due to Mo

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15025649]ALL due to Mo[/QUOTE]


LeDrive's advanced stats were stagnant from 06' to 08', so Mo's all-star spacing was the key for LeDrive - it's intuitive.

Otoh, Mo's advanced stats were already growing by leaps and bounds prior to joining Lebron, so his continued improvement in 09' can be attributed to a pattern of existing growth.

After Lebron's stint with Mo, every coach and GM knew how to get those max stats out of Lebron, aka give his stiff-arm skillset the spacing it needs.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15025652]LeDrive's advanced stats were stagnant from 06' to 08', so Mo's all-star spacing was the key for LeDrive - it's intuitive.

Otoh, Mo's advanced stats were already growing by leaps and bounds prior to joining Lebron, so his continued improvement in 09' can be attributed to a pattern of existing growth.

After Lebron's stint with Mo, every coach and GM knew how to get those max stats out of Lebron, aka give his stiff-arm skillset the spacing it needs.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, Mo basically elevated LeBron for mere all-star to the MVP caliber player he'd become. He did the same thing for every team he played for. Put Mo on the '86 Bulls and they would've beaten the Celtics.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15025654]Agreed, Mo basically elevated LeBron for mere all-star to the MVP caliber player he'd become. He did the same thing for every team he played for. Put Mo on the '86 Bulls and they would've beaten the Celtics.[/QUOTE]


See that's the thing - Mo only got a couple seasons with Lebron and barely played with other superstars, while Lebron played with more stars than anyone in history..

Lebron had 15 seasons with franchise players that had their own team, such as Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD and Luka - that's 6 franchise players that had their own team, and Lebron got 15 years with them - this is the most help ever.. Otoh, Mo got almost no time with other superstars... Btw, Lebron only had 1 sixty-win season in 15 tries with these franchise players, aka LeFraud.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15025654]Agreed, Mo basically elevated LeBron for mere all-star to the MVP caliber player he'd become. He did the same thing for every team he played for. Put Mo on the '86 Bulls and they would've beaten the Celtics.[/QUOTE]

I mean...look at it this way. If Mo fvcking Williams was all it took then it doesn't quite make the point he thinks :lol

Like..imagine Klay Thompson level spacing :applause:

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15025657]

Like..imagine Klay Thompson level spacing :applause:


[/QUOTE]



Klay doesn't work because he doesn't provide the playmaking help that Lebron needs... Lebron loves to get high-assist players that can handle a reduction in assists like Mo, Wade, and many more, so Klay's skills don't qualify to play next to Lebron - he's a tad better than Korver.

And tons of other guys like Pippen wouldn't fit with Lebron because he's a historic bricklayer - Lebron needs a great spacer like Mo or Ray Allen to win 60 and MVP... mo's spacing was CLEARLY a better sidekick for lebron than pippen's bricklaying would be, and zero clutch.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15025663]Klay doesn't work because he doesn't provide the playmaking help that Lebron needs... Lebron loves to get high-assist players that can handle a reduction in assists like Mo, Wade, and many more, so Klay's skills don't qualify to play next to Lebron - he's a tad better than Korver.

And tons of other guys like Pippen wouldn't fit with Lebron because he's a historic bricklayer - Lebron needs a great spacer like Mo or Ray Allen to win 60 and MVP.[/QUOTE]

Oh I see so it's SPECIFICALLY Mo Williams. Only Mo.

Holy shit you've always been a huge correlation = causation guy but this shit is next level :lol

[QUOTE=3ba11;15025646].
.
mo's spacing UNLOCKED lebron's game:



[indent]Regular season

08' Lebron....... 29.1 PER.... 10.9 BPM.... 0.242 WS/48..... 9.8 VORP
09' Lebron....... 31.7 PER.... 13.2 BPM.... 0.318 WS/48... 11.8 VORP


Playoffs

08' Lebron....... 24.3 PER... 10.1 BPM.... 0.187 WS/48.... 1.7 VORP
09' Lebron....... 37.4 PER... 17.2 BPM.... 0.399 WS/48.... 2.9 VORP[/indent]



^^^^ due to that, every coach thereafter knew that Lebron NEEDS SPACING.. Otoh, guys with great jumpshooting from mid-range or three-point range can shoot over packed paints and don't need spacing, such as SGA, MJ, or Kobe.. i.e. MJ and Kobe won with bad 3-point shooting teams, while SGA's team shot horribly in the playoffs and Finals (30%).

Ultimately, lebron was LOCKED UP in the 07' and 08' Playoffs, but Mo's spacing saved Lebron from making it 3 years in a row... The success of Mo's all-star spacing shows that a historic bricklayer like Pippen could never unlock LeDrive's game and win 66 games.. Pippen literally told Rachel Nichols that he couldn't space the floor [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s]here[/url][/QUOTE]

What a dummy, 08 Cavs shot 35% from 3, 09 Cavs shot 39%. He had better shooting around him in 09. Not just Mo. And in the 0layoffs in 09 that % dipped. Btw love how you ran away from my question about Kyrie. Why was his best next to Lebron and why couldn't he reach that level anywhere else?

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15025665]What a dummy, 08 Cavs shot 35% from 3, 09 Cavs shot 39%. He had better shooting around him in 09. Not just Mo. And in the 0layoffs in 09 that % dipped. Btw love how you ran away from my question about Kyrie. Why was his best next to Lebron and why couldn't he reach that level anywhere else?[/QUOTE]


Mo was growing each year before joining Lebron, and then his career was cut short by injures after Lebron left - that's obvious and common knowledge.

But Lebron still caught the best version of Mo and became the league favorite with him, but he lost as an OKC-level favorite to the Magic... Even Lebron himself says that he "f*cked up" and should've won that series.. The Cavs had the #3 defense and Mo provided 18 on 38%, but Lebron couldn't win with this, even though Jordan always did.... Lebron has always needed more scoring help because he can't carry the scoring load vs top teams (too ball-dominant at high scoring levels).

And again, the answer to your question of "why didn't Player X win without Lebron" is that they sacrificed their prime for Lebron, and never played with other superstars after Lebron left, while Lebron has 15 seasons with other superstars like Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD, Luka, and more (Ingram, Jamison, Zydrunas, Mo).. This is the most help than anyone ever had.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15025657]I mean...look at it this way. If Mo fvcking Williams was all it took then it doesn't quite make the point he thinks :lol

Like..imagine Klay Thompson level spacing :applause:[/QUOTE]

Bron would do his “need more playmakers” complaint that we heard when he joined the Lakers

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15025672]Bron would do his “need more playmakers” complaint that we heard when he joined the Lakers[/QUOTE]

There wasn't a Klay Thompson on the '18 Cavs.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15025664]Oh I see so it's SPECIFICALLY Mo Williams. Only Mo.

Holy shit you've always been a huge correlation = causation guy but this shit is next level :lol[/QUOTE]
Mo Williams was the true engine of those Cavs teams, hence the 7-27 record they had in games he played in 2011.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15025680]Mo Williams was the true engine of those Cavs teams, hence the 7-27 record they had in games he played in 2011.[/QUOTE]
No no you got it all wrong his prime had been used up by the following season. Everyone's prime ends the second they arent Lebrons teammate any longer.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15025669]Mo was growing each year before joining Lebron, and then his career was cut short by injures after Lebron left - that's obvious and common knowledge.

But Lebron still caught the best version of Mo and became the league favorite with him, but he lost as an OKC-level favorite to the Magic... Even Lebron himself says that he "f*cked up" and should've won that series.. The Cavs had the #3 defense and Mo provided 18 on 38%, but Lebron couldn't win with this, even though Jordan always did.... Lebron has always needed more scoring help because he can't carry the scoring load vs top teams (too ball-dominant at high scoring levels).

And again, the answer to your question of "why didn't Player X win without Lebron" is that they sacrificed their prime for Lebron, and never played with other superstars after Lebron left, while Lebron has 15 seasons with other superstars like Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD, Luka, and more (Ingram, Jamison, Zydrunas, Mo).. This is the most help than anyone ever had.[/QUOTE]

Its a miracle the only player in history to get teammates primes is Lebron right. Not a bald guy with a perennial all nba all defensive sidekick in the 90s right? An all defensive 3rd option with goggles maybe? Then a dye jobbed all defensive team rebounding champ who was was dpoy?

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15025687]Its a miracle the only player in history to get teammates primes is Lebron right. Not a bald guy with a perennial all nba all defensive sidekick in the 90s right? An all defensive 3rd option with goggles maybe? Then a dye jobbed all defensive team rebounding champ who was was dpoy?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, Lebron stans already debunked the all defensive team as being a dumb voting process and not legit while you spent years trying to discredit kobe

You can’t claim all defense teams mean nothing for years then turn around and keep trying to use it as a talking point for supporting cast members of a player who you are threatened by


Sorry, doesn’t work that way. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15025697]Sorry, Lebron stans already debunked the all defensive team as being a dumb voting process and not legit while you spent years trying to discredit kobe

You can’t claim all defense teams mean nothing for years then turn around and keep trying to use it as a talking point for supporting cast members of a player who you are threatened by


Sorry, doesn’t work that way. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.[/QUOTE]

You've never seen me type the words all defense means nothing. I dont ever try to exclude a player's accomplishments. Did Kobe not live up to the standard for those last few 1st teams on defense? Probably not, but it is what it is. Other people with the desire have already dove into the numbers and come to those conclusions.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15025730]You've never seen me type the words all defense means nothing. I dont ever try to exclude a player's accomplishments. Did Kobe not live up to the standard for those last few 1st teams on defense? Probably not, but it is what it is. Other people with the desire have already dove into the numbers and come to those conclusions.[/QUOTE]
Kobe > Bron

there’s two sides of the ball and bron has coasted his entire life on that side. Kobe > Bron as a complete basketball player, Deal with it homie.

Either fade bron for not making defense teams or fade kobe for making making teams but when he does it it’s “fraudulent”(while simultaneously not fading teammates on dudes who you think threaten bron’s legacy)

You are a biased clown who never played high level basketball in your life.

Not trying to be a dick but make like a tree and get the f. uck out of here

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15025738]Kobe > Bron

there’s two sides of the ball and bron has coasted his entire life on that side. Kobe > Bron as a complete basketball player, Deal with it homie.

Either fade bron for not making defense teams or fade kobe for making making teams but when he does it it’s “fraudulent”(while simultaneously not fading teammates on dudes who you think threaten bron’s legacy)

You are a biased clown who never played high level basketball in your life.

Not trying to be a dick but make like a tree and get the f. uck out of here[/QUOTE]

There it is. You finally said what you wanted to say the whole time. Im proud of you. Unfortunately not many people agree, sadly I dont agree with you either. And like I said Ive never tried to remove any accomplishment from a debate or remove any player. Kobe was great, I was a fan day one. Lebron can do so many things Kobe simply couldn't do. Even with all those defensive team selections Lebron's defense at his peak was a level above Kobe's. Kobe was a great man defender that coasted in his later years even though he was still getting all defense nods. When he turned it on he could still defend at a high level just like what we've seen from LeBron towards the end of his prime on. I dont get why Kobe stans gotta be so angry and defensive over Lebron its weird af. Yall mu****as play better d than he ever did.

And im the biased one when all i really debate here is whether or not we judge everyone with the same scale. You clearly are emotionally upset over a basketball player. That must be that Mamba Mentality kicking in. I bet you were jutting your chin out as you typed that, how cute:kobe:

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15025781]

There it is. You finally said what you wanted to say the whole time. Im proud of you. Unfortunately not many people agree,


[/quote]


except all the players



[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15025781]

Lebron can do so many things Kobe simply couldn't do.


[/quote]


and vice versa.

kobe had great mid-range, so he could shoot over packed paints and didn't need spacing like LeDrive does.

Kobe could also score off screens and facilitate great ball movement..

this matters because it means he maintained brand of ball at high scoring levels and therefore carry the scoring load against top teams... the ability to carry the "star" category of scoring allows GM's to get defensive help.. So lebron's [I]inability[/I] to carry the scoring load prevented elite roster construction, while his skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampered roster construction and player development

Successfully carrying the scoring load on the championship level = defeating max defensive attention... kobe did this and lebron didn't.