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[QUOTE=clayton]I kinda agree with the "[B]right time right place[/B]".
Who knows what will happen if our current SG Stars get a chance to play back 15 years ago, surrounded by a supporting cast such as the Bulls with modernized atheletic move sets.[/QUOTE]
I disagree.the current SG/SF's in the NBA have inflated stats because you can no longer touch these guys on the perimeter,hence the inflated FT's numbers.Jordon would average 40ppg easily in todays league
[QUOTE=kgisbigticket]Not only that, but MJ could win titles without a dominant big man because MJ had the efficiency of a dominant big man. In fact, his effiency was greater than Shaq and Wilt as indicated by him having the highest PER.
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/PER_career.html[/url]
1 Michael Jordan 27.91
2 Shaquille O'Neal 27.63
3 David Robinson 26.18
4 Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5 Bob Pettit* 25.34
6 Tim Duncan 25.17
7 Charles Barkley* 24.63
8 Neil Johnston* 24.62
9 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
Your Top 9 are all big men except MJ. Just goes to show how good he really was.[/QUOTE]
great post:rockon:
[QUOTE=Phenomenon]I heard numerous times Magic Johnson telling to Larry Bird that he's the greatest player he's ever seen. I guess it's out of respect for their rival, and him picking Jordan is his un-bias opinion. Fair enough.
[/QUOTE]
Here goes one...
[quote]Even contemporaneous superstars recognized the unparalleled position of Jordan. [b]Magic Johnson said, "There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us."[/b] Larry Bird, following a playoff game where Jordan dropped 63 points on the Boston Celtics in just his second season, appraisal of the young player was: "God disguised as Michael Jordan.[/quote]
[url]http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_bio.html[/url]
An interesting article with all time greats prasing MJ..
[b][i] Michael Jordan Retires - Praise from his peers - Monday February 01, 1999 03:52 PM[/i][/b]
[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/jordan_retires/news/1999/01/13/jordan_greatest/[/url]
[I]In NBA, how a few tweaks became a scoring extravaganza[/I]
Published: MONDAY, MAY 16, 2005
[url]http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/15/sports/POINTS.php[/url]
[quote]The new defensive rules went into effect for the 2001-2 season. Two years later, the league's offense bottomed out, with a .421 field-goal percentage and an average combined score of 176.1 points a game. That was not the result anyone wanted, but in the NBA, evolution is slow.
Coaches needed time to teach zone defense, and players needed time to learn how to play it. They also needed to learn how to attack zones, through better ball and player movement.[/quote]
[I]NBA teams scoring less than ever, and the Nuggets are the worst offenders[/I]
Monday, February 24, 2003
[quote]Ten years ago, 25 of the NBA's 27 teams averaged 100 points or more per game. This season, three of the league's 29 teams average 100-plus. The image of athletic stars soaring to the hoop often gives way to the reality of players walking the ball upcourt and clanging shots off the rim.[/quote]
[quote][B]TOLBERT'S RANT[/B]
For all the talk about Detroit's Bad Boys making defense fashionable in the late 1980s, the Houston Rockets also changed the landscape. The Rockets won back-to-back championships largely by slowing down their offense and dumping the ball into Hakeem Olajuwon, who either shot or kicked the ball back out for a 3-pointer.
In other words, Houston's offense seldom involved more than two players. As teams around the league began to mimic the Rockets, by Tolbert's thinking, the game slowed and the number of shots taken dropped.
RISE IN 3-POINT ATTEMPTS
This decrease coincided with a rise in 3-point shot attempts, as more and more teams let fly from long range. As Tolbert put it, the bottom line consists of worse shots, worse shooters, fewer shots and better defense.
ZONE'S EFFECT
The most controversial rule change allowed NBA teams to play zone defense. Colangelo expected the zone to encourage teams to run fastbreaks and involve more players in the halfcourt offense, because defenses more easily could double-team the top threats.[/quote]
[I]Four Years Later, N.B.A. Sees the Points[/I]
May 13, 2005
[quote]It was deliberate and it was planned, through a series of often unwelcome rules changes and rules emphases, aided by an influx of new talent on the court and, finally, abetted by coaches who saw no choice but to adapt.
This is the game the N.B.A. wanted when it overhauled its defensive rules four years ago. It just needed several more tweaks and some fine tuning to get it here.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Diesel J]An interesting article with all time greats prasing MJ..
[b][i] Michael Jordan Retires - Praise from his peers - Monday February 01, 1999 03:52 PM[/i][/b]
[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/jordan_retires/news/1999/01/13/jordan_greatest/[/url][/QUOTE]
wow, some high praise from some great players.
[B]Patrick Ewing[/B]
"All I can speak for is people in my era, and from what I've seen, he's definitely the greatest. Unfortunately, I didn't have an opportunity to see Bill, Wilt or Oscar or some of the other guys. But based upon what I've seen, definitely.
[B]Magic Johnson[/B]
"He's an icon, a one-man show. He's won one more championship than I did. He'll be rubbing it in my face for eternity. I was hoping he would stay just one more year to help these young NBA players learn how to be a true professional."
[B]Bob Cousy[/B]
"He's by far the best since Naismith hung up the basket. He touches every base. He could play three, maybe four positions and maybe even center, too. He has no discernible weakness. The keys to basketball, despite the emphasis on big men, is still speed and quickness. He has them in abundance. When I jumped as high as I could, I got to the bottom of the net. When he jumps as high as he can, he's over the backboard. He's the best, without question."
[B]Elgin Baylor[/B]
"Not only do I admire Jordan's accomplishments and his phenomenal basketball ability, but also the way he has conducted himself on and off the court. I don't think there will ever be another player to have the same impact on the game of basketball as Michael Jordan. If you look up the definition of greatness in the dictionary, it will say Michael Jordan."
[B]Shaquille O'Neal[/B]
"Michael's definitely the best basketball player of all time. He's the greatest offensive weapon to ever play, and probably the best defensive player we've ever seen."
[B]Bill Walton[/B]
"He has no peers but Michael Jordan. He competes against himself. That's the level he's taken it to."
[B]Isiah Thomas[/B]
"From all the players I have seen and played against, he's definitely the best player ever. A lot of people like to argue this guy was better or this guy was better. But every player you think of there was some weaknesses and deficiencies in their game. He has the complete package in all facets of his offensive game, and when you break him down defensively, he's also the best defensive player in the game. ... He should be remembered as the greatest of all time."
and that's just a few
The thing is no matter how good Michael Jordan was, eventually someone will surpass in the media and game's eyes (and a lot sooner than any of us think) whether or not that player is actually better than Jordan, because in time all things in the past get pushed aside for something new. It could be Lebron, it could be Durant, it could be a number of different players. He won't always be viewed as the greatest to ever play the game by the majority. The only pure thing you can say about Jordan is that he was the best of his generation and even then that will eventually be questioned (although he has the benefit of no other patheon level player playing during his era). Ultimately you have no idea how he would match up with players like Chamberlain, Russell, Jabbar, Erving, Bird, and Magic, it's all just speculation and in a few years (less than a decade I bet) a player is going be coined as the greatest of all time and Jordan will by and large be pushed aside because that's how it always works.
[QUOTE=steve] He won't always be viewed as the greatest to ever play the game by the majority. .[/QUOTE]
maybe 20-30 years from now when the new kids coming up didn't witness him first hand. But even then, there would still be people around to put them in their place. And it will always be generally understood, no matter who passes him statistically, nobody will ever do for the game what Jordan did.
MJ practiced today with the Bobcats and judging from this picture, he's still schooling everybody...
Fixed: Kobe to MJ HAHA!!
[img]http://www.nba.com/media/bobcats/jordan_inside_071218.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=gencbiba]Kobe practiced today with the Bobcats and judging from this picture, he's still schooling everybody...
[img]http://www.nba.com/media/bobcats/jordan_inside_071218.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
That's Kobe?:oldlol:
[QUOTE=haterofhaters]maybe 20-30 years from now when the new kids coming up didn't witness him first hand. But even then, there would still be people around to put them in their place. And it will always be generally understood, no matter who passes him statistically, nobody will ever do for the game what Jordan did.[/QUOTE]
There are still a number of people out there who swear by Chamberlain or Russell as the best players of all time (and there are actually a good number of them). The thing is most of the people here grew up witnessing Michael Jordan in his prime (and a vast majority didn't watch Jordan go through his growing pains as a me first type of player in the 80s), how is that sufficient evidence to be the undisputed greatest player of all time. What happens if Lebron all of a sudden wins 3 or 4 titles in a 6 year span in the next decade and possibly averages a triple double in one (or more) of those seasons. Are you saying that he wouldn't be touted as the best player ever. I'm sure people will still mention Jordan, but his backing would get significantly quieter.
[QUOTE=steve]There are still a number of people out there who swear by Chamberlain or Russell as the best players of all time (and there are actually a good number of them). The thing is most of the people here grew up witnessing Michael Jordan in his prime (and a vast majority didn't watch Jordan go through his growing pains as a me first type of player in the 80s), how is that sufficient evidence to be the undisputed greatest player of all time. What happens if Lebron all of a sudden wins 3 or 4 titles in a 6 year span in the next decade and possibly averages a triple double in one (or more) of those seasons. Are you saying that he wouldn't be touted as the best player ever. I'm sure people will still mention Jordan, but his backing would get significantly quieter.[/QUOTE]
THe argument is not about the future. If Lebron or someone else has the credentials, scoring titles, nba titles, league mvp's etc.. to match Jordan, then the discussion can begin. That's not to say that it can never happen, but it hasn't so nobody is better, not lebron, not kobe..
[QUOTE=haterofhaters]THe argument is not about the future. If Lebron or someone else has the credentials, scoring titles, nba titles, league mvp's etc.. to match Jordan, then the discussion can begin. That's not to say that it can never happen, but it hasn't so nobody is better, not lebron, not kobe..[/QUOTE]
My initial argument wasn't even about the future though, it was mainly stating that you can only judge Jordan against his era and it's impossible to qualify him as the greatest of all time.
[QUOTE=steve]My initial argument wasn't even about the future though, it was mainly stating that you can only judge Jordan against his era and it's impossible to qualify him as the greatest of all time.[/QUOTE]
So basically you're saying that nobody can be called the greatest of all time in any circumstance in any sport unless they could go back in time and play previous eras, and stay in the sport forever and play the current eras?
lol at michael jordan being a dwade in todays game.
He played in an era where more physical defense was played and you dont get fouled just cuz u got touched. He is like dwade but faster like d wade drives to the hoop not to get fouled but to make it in. defense of a bowen. vision of a lebron. hops of a carter. winner of a michael.
[QUOTE=haterofhaters]So basically you're saying that nobody can be called the greatest of all time in any circumstance in any sport unless they could go back in time and play previous eras, and stay in the sport forever and play the current eras?[/QUOTE]
No, I'm saying it will always be open for debate.
[QUOTE=steve]No, I'm saying it will always be open for debate.[/QUOTE]
why debate something without the intention of having a conclusive answer?
[QUOTE=haterofhaters]why debate something without the intention of having a conclusive answer?[/QUOTE]
Aren't people still debating the existence of God?
[QUOTE=kumquat]Ricky Davis is already better than him.[/QUOTE]
at ruining a team's chemistry?
[QUOTE=steve]Aren't people still debating the existence of God?[/QUOTE]
lol. tell me how you're trying to compare faith to basketball. They aren't even in the same league (no pun intended).
[QUOTE=falcon#5]Micheal Jordan was one of the greatest players to play the game but people are going to have to face it sooner or later that they're are players just as good as him if not better.
People are in denial and they will never let anyone be better than Micheal jordan people just wont accept it thats how it is.
People ride off other players before they have even compared them to him because they wont let anyone be better seriously think about it.
woRd OUT[/QUOTE]
Gosh, never knew that before. :)
[QUOTE=haterofhaters]lol. tell me how you're trying to compare faith to basketball. They aren't even in the same league (no pun intended).[/QUOTE]
The example is a bit extreme, but there's no definable answer there, but it hasn't stopped people from debating it. It's more imaginative and creative to debate something that doesn't have a definitive answer, at least to me anyway.
This thread is f*cking moronic. Jordan is quite possibly the GOAT, behind Wilt Chamberlain. Putting Wade in the same sentence as Jordan is a joke.
[QUOTE=Poseidon]I've said this once and I'll say it again....
Jordan = right place, right time
[B]He'd just be another great swingman had he played in today's game. Jordan would be grouped wirth Kobe, Wade, Iverson and McGrady (also maybe LeBron).
Also his stats would not be as inflated due to Zone defense, non-hand checking rule and better athletes in his position and in the league.[/B]
No more 50 point games againt the Craig Ehlo's or the Danny Ainge's or the Jeff Malone's of the world. He'll now be facing some real, athletic competition.
Also players like Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Josh Smith and about 10 others would put Jordan's "AIR" moniker to shame with their dunks compared the MJ's generic ones. He can kiss any Slam Dunk title away because he would NEVER win one in today's league.
:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll:
You seriously need to stop posting. All I see you do is hate. Not to mention the fact that you're a complete jackass. I highlighted the spots where you are completely wrong. You think zone defense and better players would stop Jordan with his fade-a-way J's? Mmmmkay. And again, grouping Wade with Jordan is sig-worthy. Sorry, but Wade blows f*cking ass. Kill yourself, you seriously know nothing about basketball. What are you, 12? Have you even seen Jordan play a game?
[QUOTE=haterofhaters]So basically you're saying that nobody can be called the greatest of all time in any circumstance in any sport unless they could go back in time and play previous eras, and stay in the sport forever and play the current eras?[/QUOTE]
How the hell can you just flat out call Jordan the GOAT...No one is the clear cut GOAT.. What give Jordan the nod over Kareem, Magic, Bill Russel, Wilt etc... There really isnt much. People need to stop saying Jordan is the GOAT like it is a fact.
[QUOTE=steve]The example is a bit extreme, but there's no definable answer there, but it hasn't stopped people from debating it. It's more imaginative and creative to debate something that doesn't have a definitive answer, at least to me anyway.[/QUOTE]
A debate about God though it may be long and drawn out, comes down to: either you believe he exists or you don't. Plain and simple. A debate about the GOAT comes down to facts, figures and accomplishments. All of which Jordan holds a lot.
[QUOTE=haterofhaters]A debate about God though it may be long and drawn out, comes down to: either you believe he exists or you don't. Plain and simple. A debate about the GOAT comes down to facts, figures and accomplishments. All of which Jordan holds a lot.[/QUOTE]
The one thing he holds above most other players is scoring average. And did compete against other greats? No. So how exactly then is he the indisputable greatest basketball player of all time?
[QUOTE=haterofhaters]A debate about God though it may be long and drawn out, comes down to: either you believe he exists or you don't. [B]Plain and simple.[/B] A debate about the GOAT comes down to facts, figures and accomplishments. All of which Jordan holds a lot.[/QUOTE]
I agree, basketball talk is nice and easy!
Though I suspect you may not have discovered the world of philosophy yet. :)
Epistemology, Transcendental Idealism, Moral philosophy, autonomy of reason, etc. all await you. You will never think that religion to be plain and simple again, at least from an intellectual level!
BTW - If you want your head to hurt try to work yourself up to Kant, something like "A Critique of Pure Reason". Will give you a whole new reason to hate smart people!
hahahaha i create quite the argument hear.
MJ IS THE BEST I WAS JUST JOSHING AND YOU CAN BAG ME OR WATEVA I DONT CARE
IM THE NEXT LEBRON look me up oj mayo its me baby
First post so go easy on me:)
I'm half for and half against this thread(I hope that made sense)
Anyway I think this thread adresses the fact that the bball society of today always down-plays the accomplishments of todays established or up and coming stars (e.g: kobe, vince, dwade, A.I., etc.) since they have witnessed the greatness of MJ. It's kinda like living in a high-class hotel for the past 18 years and then ending up living in the slums after your hotel stay is done. Ever since MJ's 2nd retirement in 98 (w/c was so sad that I actually didn't watch an NBA game for almost 2 years) people have always looked for the "next MJ". They've pressured guys like grant hill, Iverson, VC, and Kobe to be the next MJ w/c in the end is almost impossible. Whenever they do something great or amazing (Kobe 81 pts, Iverson leading sixers to NBA finals, etc.) there are always some people who will try and degrade this accomplishments by comparing it to his airness. They always end-up saying, "Well MJ did this..." or "Mike had a tougher time during the..." Which look at the "next great player" and accept him for who he is and not try to compare him, or worse, try to make him into someone who he will never be (Lebron, Melo, Wade).
The thing that I don't appreciate about this thread is how it down-plays Mike's accomplishments. i don't whether your Bush himself but no one (and I mean no one:no: !) has the right to undermine the "Great one's" accomplishments and what he did for the game. Hell!!! his the reason why I fell head over heels in-love with the game.:bowdown:
[QUOTE=Younggrease] What give Jordan the nod over Kareem, Magic, Bill Russel, Wilt etc... There really isnt much. People need to stop saying Jordan is the GOAT like it is a fact.[/QUOTE]
It may not be fact but it is the overwhelming consensus among fans/commentators/former players/coaches, generally anyone who's watched the game or been around the league for decades.
:)
[QUOTE=haterofhaters]That's Kobe?:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
LOL! When I wrote the post, I was also posting on the Laker game thread so I had Kobe on my mind... haha.
[QUOTE]A debate about the GOAT comes down to facts, figures and accomplishments. All of which Jordan holds a lot.[/QUOTE]
A debate about the GOAT comes down to how people view these facts. Bill Russell has 11 titles. Nobody among the GOAT candidates comes even close. He also has 5 MVP's, statistic titles and is widely considered as the GOAT defender. But not many people view his accomplishments in accordance with today's era. As a result, Russell
[QUOTE]why debate something without the intention of having a conclusive answer?[/QUOTE]
The thing isn't whether you have the intention to get a conclusive answer, but whether there is such a thing and whether this is accepted by all people whose opinions matter. And for most of these debates, there isn't. The only way you can be called the GOAT without much of a debate is to dominate like nobody else in history in just about any statistical category [B]and [/B]dominate like nobody else in team titles of your era [B]and [/B]do this with the toughest individual and team competition (of course, finding who had the better competition is a tough task by itself). As long as such a thing didn't happen (and is very unlikely to ever happen) in basketball, there will always be room for debate, at least among people who know the sport.
[QUOTE=Psileas]
And an objection:
[B]Quite contrary to some, I don't see more Magic fans calling Magic the GOAT than Bird ones. Go to Youtube videos' comments, Larry Bird tributes' comments, or comments in other sites like rateitall.com and you'll see a lot of [B]very [/B]high Bird praise, moreso than Magic, imo.[/QUOTE][/B]
that's interesting because i grew up in new england, and at this point i know literally NO ONE from home who believes that bird is better than jordan. not even my older relatives who dogged me for being a jordan fan in the 80s and told me he wasn't a good enough teammate to ever be as good bird. they've all swung around. do they think bird's better than magic? well yeah. their new england homers. i wonder if the youtube market is young enough that they have seen some jordan weakenesses (particularly with the wiz) but only ever seen bird highlight film? could be racially motivated too, i guess. i was more speaking from what i had seen here.
the only names i've heard mentioned ahead of jordan on this board are magic (by several lakers fans), wilt (by you), russell (by one very young poster trying his damnedest to run down michael), bird (by one poster who i believe had celtics or bird in his user name), kobe (by a few people - possibly dummy accounts held by mark jackson and that girl from espn), shaq (one or two), and lebron, but of them all magic is the name i've heard the most from posters i take seriously. oh, and for the record (again), i have no issue whatsoever with people finding another goat, be it magic, larry, wilt, or kobe, as long as they've got good rationale behind the pick.
I think the one thing we are forgetting is the defense that Jordan played. How many people in the league today play defense the way Jordan did and can still put up large numbers? One person, Marion, and we can all agree that he is no Jordan(I'm not bashing Marion, I think he is great). And what is all this crap about being in the right place at the right time? Every era is different in the way the game is played. You say it is harder to play today and that makes the likes of Kobe and Wade better. How is it harder? Jordan played against Magic, Bird, Barkley, Stockton, Malone and many other great players who could teach some people today a few lessons. People make the case that Bird and Magic are the best players but in the next breath say that Jordan didn't play against anyone. My dad is a baby boomer and will tell you today that Jordan is the best player to grace the hardwood and in my twenty two years I cannot deny it. Jordan played an all around game, he rebounded the ball, passed the ball, blocked shots, stole passes and picked pockets, he took the ball into the paint and wasn't afraid of the Ewings, he crossed up the gaurds and floated the ball over the forwards. If you can find another player who does all of that, day in and day out while keeping his teammates involved then you might have a case for an arguement.
[QUOTE]I think the one thing we are forgetting is the defense that Jordan played. How many people in the league today play defense the way Jordan did and can still put up large numbers? One person, Marion, and we can all agree that he is no Jordan(I'm not bashing Marion, I think he is great). And what is all this crap about being in the right place at the right time? Every era is different in the way the game is played. You say it is harder to play today and that makes the likes of Kobe and Wade better. How is it harder? Jordan played against Magic, Bird, Barkley, Stockton, Malone and many other great players who could teach some people today a few lessons. People make the case that Bird and Magic are the best players but in the next breath say that Jordan didn't play against anyone. My dad is a baby boomer and will tell you today that Jordan is the best player to grace the hardwood and in my twenty two years I cannot deny it. Jordan played an all around game, he rebounded the ball, passed the ball, blocked shots, stole passes and picked pockets, he took the ball into the paint and wasn't afraid of the Ewings, he crossed up the gaurds and floated the ball over the forwards. If you can find another player who does all of that, day in and day out while keeping his teammates involved then you might have a case for an arguement.[/QUOTE]
Well, here are some of these Larry Bird comments I had found. To be honest, I thought Magic had a somewhat smaller "GOAT voters" core in the 1st link. Still, Bird got high praises and, as you'll see, he's the most talked about player after Jordan:
[url]http://www.rateitall.com/i-20833-larry-bird.aspx[/url]
Another old but good link:
[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1998/bird/yourturn/[/url]
I'll tell you this though: In Europe, Magic, instead of Wilt is the next most popular choice for GOAT after Jordan. The reason is
1) Europe has seen even less footage from prior to Magic's era. Magic and Bird first made NBA basketball popular in Europe. They looked at the Showtime Lakers and Bird's Celtics at awe. They didn't have the chance to evaluate older teams, however.
2) Many Europeans respect the prior to 80's years even less than their US peers and obviously have a shallower knowledge of American basketball (I've even seen known journalists using the "6-7 center" argument for the 60's).
3) Europe favors the team game more and Magic used to be a "pure basketball" journalists' dream player.
[QUOTE=w00terz]This thread is f*cking moronic. Jordan is quite possibly the GOAT, behind Wilt Chamberlain. Putting Wade in the same sentence as Jordan is a joke.[/QUOTE]
Wilt wasn't even better than Shaq. MJ has more 50+, 40+, 30+ games than anyone in history in the PLAYOFFS. He also has the most finals mvp's and the only player to average 30+ in the season, playoffs and finals. No one compares to him.
[QUOTE]Wilt wasn't even better than Shaq. MJ has more 50+, 40+, 30+ games than anyone in history in the PLAYOFFS. He also has the most finals mvp's and the only player to average 30+ in the season, playoffs and finals. No one compares to him.[/QUOTE]
Wilt was better than Shaq all things considered (that's for another topic), x-point playoff records are not the only ones that count (Wilt and Russell own the rebounding records and, practically, the blocked shots ones too, Magic holds the assist and triple-doubles records) and Bill Russell would have 7-8 Finals' MVP's had they existed back then.
This deserves a second posting, since people ignored the obvious.
[QUOTE]SportsCentury is an Emmy award-winning ESPN biography program that reviews the people and athletic events that defined sports in North America throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
In 1999, ESPN counted down the Top 50 Athletes of the 20th Century, voted on by a panel of sports journalists and observers, premiering a new biography highlighting each top athlete every week throughout the year.
Research for SportsCentury include more than 1,000 interviews, 50,000 photos, and 100,000 newspaper artifacts.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]SportsCentury: Top 100 Athletes of the 20th Century
[B][SIZE="4"]# 1. Michael Jordan[/SIZE][/B]
# 2. Babe Ruth
# 3. Muhammad Ali
# 4. Jim Brown
# 5. Wayne Gretzky
# 6. Jesse Owens
# 7. Jim Thorpe
# 8. Willie Mays
# 9. Jack Nicklaus
# 10. Babe Didrikson
# 11. Joe Louis
# 12. Carl Lewis
# 13. Wilt Chamberlain
# 14. Hank Aaron
# 15. Jackie Robinson
# 16. Ted Williams
# 17. Magic Johnson
# 18. Bill Russell
# 19. Martina Navratilova
# 20. Ty Cobb
# 21. Gordie Howe
# 22. Joe DiMaggio
# 23. Jackie Joyner-Kersee
# 24. Sugar Ray Robinson
# 25. Joe Montana[/QUOTE]
Close thread.
[QUOTE=Psileas]Wilt was better than Shaq all things considered (that's for another topic), x-point playoff records are not the only ones that count (Wilt and Russell own the rebounding records and, practically, the blocked shots ones too, Magic holds the assist and triple-doubles records) and Bill Russell would have 7-8 Finals' MVP's had they existed back then.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter if Russell would have had 7-8 finals mvp's, the fact remains is that he doesn't. And when he played their were only 2 playoff rounds, which makes it quite easy to win titles.
Who cares about rebound records? What did they do in the finals? Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals one year and never averaged 30 ppg in any finals. That's pathetic for a guy whose main focus was scoring in a fast paced era.
Shaq has 3 finals MVP's and is 3rd all time in finals ppg. Wilt isn't as good nor does he care when it matters most.