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[QUOTE=StoneCold]
And I've already [B]PROVEN[/B] that [B][I][U]OVERALL[/U][/I][/B], MJ's [B][I]ROOKIE[/I][/B] season [B][I][U]TROUNCES[/U][/I][/B] any season kobe has [B][I]EVER[/I][/B] had in a previous post on this thread..
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm not sure Jordan's rookie season trounces Bryant's 02-03, 05-06 and 06-07 seasons. Let's be rational here...
Current Kobe Bryant> Prime Jordan.
Kobe is the G.O.A.T
[QUOTE=BIGSHOT]Current Kobe Bryant> Prime Jordan.
Kobe is the G.O.A.T[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=BIGSHOT]Current Kobe Bryant> Prime Jordan.
Kobe is the G.O.A.T[/QUOTE]
give me break:rolleyes:
I am huge pippen fan but kobe is poor mans michael jordan
[B][B][COLOR="Blue"][COLOR="Blue"]The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:
Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91
Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.
As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:
Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)
Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan
Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan
Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan
Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan
Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)
These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.
Quote:
Wilt Chamberlain (lost in ’60-61, ’65-66, ’67-68, ’68-69, ’72-73)
Magic Johnson (lost in ’80-81, ’85-86, ’89-90)
Kareem (lost in ’72-73, ’73-74, ’76-77, ’80-81, ’85-86)
Larry Bird (lost in ’79-80, ’81-82, ’82-83, ’84-85, ’87-88,
Oscar Robertson (lost in ’61-62, ’64-65, ’72-73, ’73-74)
Jerry West (lost in ’68-69, ’72-73)
Shaq (lost in ’93-94, ’94-95, ’03-04)
Hakeem (lost in ’84-85, ’86-87)
Duncan (lost in ’00-01, ’03-04)
Bill Russell (lost in 1958) - however he was injured
MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.
Also consider the following:
Is 18% a good percentage?
In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...
Pretty awful right?
Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...
Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...
Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.
That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...
10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!
I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B][/B]
[COLOR="Red"][COLOR="Red"][B][B]Here are the playoff top games.
[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...vidual_points/[/url]
Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime
This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:
NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6[/B][/B][/COLOR][/COLOR]
[B][COLOR="Sienna"][COLOR="Sienna"]Let's just start off by saying one thing: MJ was never
considered the best player because he scored 50 points
for 'x amount' of games against the worst teams during
the regular season. He's considered the greatest
because he played his greatest games against the
greatest teams in the playoffs. Remember, it was just
last year that ESPN banned comparing KB to MJ after
his Game 7 disappearing act.
Now, KB has done some things MJ hasn't done of course
but there are dozens and dozens of feats KB will never
even come close to doing that MJ has done (see
bottom). Single scoring feats are pretty much all he
can try as MJ left that type of game a long time ago
in order to build a better team. If you want to build
an argument, let's put some numbers to back it up.
Your article was all opinion and loose observation.
I'm going to go through your article point by point.
1) Kobe is as good a defender. OK, right there, I
almost stopped reading. Not even the biggest Kobe
homing 12 year old kids will say this. In fact, they
point that this is Kobe's biggest gap between him and
MJ. It's actually safe to say that MJ at age 40 was a
better defender than KB is now. MJ at age 40 averaged
MORE steals AND blocks than KB now at fewer minutes
per game. MJ in his prime averaged TWICE as much. MJ
holds the record for most blocks by a guard (131) and
is the first and only guard to record 200 steals and
100 blocks in the same year - twice. He remains
unbreakable here - 9 all-first Defensive awards plus
the DPOY in 1988, steals leader 3 times etc. Not even
close. Kobe's got 4 all-first Defensive awards that
Sports Illustrated calls "dubious at best" -
especially with Shaq covering 3 of them. And, MJ never
let up on his D when he was scoring 50. He was
frenetic on both ends constantly. When KB goes to
offense mode, his D. disappears as his energy is
focused on scoring. I believe he had only 7 steals and
1 block in his 5 game scoring spree - not exactly MJ
material.
2) MJ was a worse teammate and ball hog? Did you get
this quote from a basketball forum? Sure, MJ was a
tough teammate and was also selfish but he had a great
excuse - he was shooting 3-6% better than his team. KB
shoots 3-6 WORSE than LA. Nothing but nonsense here
anyway as players soon picked up their duties around
MJ and he became the best teammate and leader on his
way to 6 rings. As Magic said during MJ's 37.1ppg
season, "We know MJ can score but he needs to make his
teammates better and win" and that's exactly what he
did to squash the selfish-ballhog title forever. Now,
if KB can shoot 3-6% better than his team - he has a
license to hog as well. Unfortunately, this 5 game
streak was his only license as he has shot a mediocre
45% through his career. MJ had that license for a
decade with his career 50% FG. How can you compare?
You can't.
3) MJ would have problems playing with Shaq? I guess
you missed his interview in Cigar: "Give me a 7-footer
like Shaq and I'd still be playing today". MJ knew it
was all about the rings.
4) Best player argument? Sure, KB is the best right
now. But, that argument might be good for 2 of his 11
years. That doesn't hold water for the rest of NBA
history nor does it hold water against MJ's dominance
for a decade and a half. And, plenty of people will
argue for Shaq, Wade, Duncan as well still.
5) Today's athletes are bigger, stronger, faster. OK,
you should have checked the stats. MJ played in the
Big Man era - the tallest 4 year span ever was 85-89
with the single tallest year ever in 1987 at 6-7.62
(the year MJ scored 37.1ppg). Today, it's down to
6-7.26, Now, the players today are more wing players
than Big players but that's because of all the MJ
wannabes. You got it right that players are stronger
and faster (weights, more athletic scouting) but that
number has remained steady since MJ's last 3 peat when
he was killing it at ages 33-35. It's EVEN more
impressive that MJ's last 3 peat still had him
dominating when there was still some form of hand
checking allowed. Any strength advantage today's
players have is gone through the no-hand-checks which
remains the single greatest change in the game today.
Don't forget the Jordan Rules as well - the most
destructive defense ever for one player in an era of
no flagrants.
6) NBA is tougher now? You did know it's the 'no
hand-check era'. You do know there were no 'flagrants'
back in the day right? You need to read Lazenby's
"Death of Defense" regarding the no-hand-checks.
[url]http://lakernoise.blogspot.com/2006/...e-article.html[/url]
7) Kobe is surrounded by mediocre talent. True but
look again, KB's team is actually better than you
think and it's easily better than the coke-sniffing
thugs MJ played with early in his career. This is a
topic I that needs another 5 pages so I won't go there
now. Don't forget, Kobe had the best team early in his
career and look what he wanted to give up. Your
argument that Phoenix and the Spurs are better than
the Suns of yesterday are arguable at best. Do they
compare to the Pistons or Knicks on the Eastern end of
MJ's run as well?
8) Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing didn't affect the game like
Shaq and Duncan. Excuse me but MJ ANNIHILATED the
greatest centers INSTEAD OF HAVING THEM ON HIS OWN
TEAM. I'm going to think this was typo - nothing could
be this ignorant. Let's put it this way, MJ played
greater than the greatest centers in an era where
there were still true centers and he ended up denying
all of them rings. MJ ended up with the #1 PER rating
in history - above Wilt, Shaq and Robinson. The reason
why title teams are built around centers is because
they perform at the highest efficiency. MJ defied
logic and performed at an even higher efficiency which is
why he remains the exception - a 'center's
productivity in a guard's package'. One of Kobe's main
problems is that he knows this. That's why he wanted
to get his own team because he knew he could never be
the greatest behind a dominant big man.
Conclusion: Whether you like Kobe or not, he's the
best answer for the best player today and the closest
to MJ in skill. But, that's where it ends. The scoring
bursts against the bottom 26-30 defensive teams are
great but very self-conscious and still nothing
compared to Wilt. Wilt scored over 70 5 times in his
career and he's no MJ either. And, KB has nothing
going on in the playoffs as an individual - the only
place where things matter and the world watches. If MJ
dropped everything to push a scoring feat (dropped
defense, dropped resting minutes, dropped developing
real team chemistry) and all he went for was pushing
50 points - he'd never, ever have won and he wouldn't
be the MJ we know today. He'd just be known as a scorer
in the regular season and as worthless as A-rod in the
real season. But regardless, MJ still owns the most
scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF
Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at
the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important
ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1. Take away Wilt and MJ
climbs to 26 and Kobe has 8. Below that are MJ's
records and KB's records. Not ever close.
Again, MJ retired as the greatest playoff performer
ever which is where he solidified himself as the
greatest ever.
It's not repugnant to say someone is better than MJ.
It's just impossible and we can back that all day with
numbers.
Best,
xxxxxx[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]
[COLOR="Red"][COLOR="Red"][B]Here's a list of ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS.
- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ,
Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 39
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games in playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 29
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: MJ 23
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: MJ 23
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: Kobe 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40
FULL MJ/KB RECORDS LIST:
KOBE:
NBA Regular-season records Kobe holds:
-All-rookie game (now defunct): 31 points
NBA Regular-season records Kobe Shares:
-Most 3 pointers in one game: 12 (shared with 1
player)
-Most 3 pointers in one half: 8 (5 players)
-Most consecutive 3 pointers: 9 (2 players)
-Most free throws made in one quarter: 14 (5 players)
-Most free throws attempted one quarter: 16 (6
players)
NBA Playoff Records Kobe holds:
-NONE
NBA Playoff Records Kobe Shares:
-NONE
NBA Finals records Kobe holds:
-NONE
NBA Finals records Kobe Shares:
-NONE
MJ:
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan holds:
-Most seasons leading league in scoring: 10
-Highest scoring average, career: 30.12ppg
-Most consecutive points, one game: 23
-Most seasons leading league in field goals made: 10
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in field
goal attempts: 10
-Most free throws made, one-half: 20
-Most consecutive gms in double figures in scoring:
866
-Most blocks by a guard: 131
-Most consecutive seasons leading PER: 7
-Highest career PER: 27.91
-Oldest player to score 40+ points: age 40 (43 pts)
-Oldest player to score 50+ points: age 38 (51 pts)
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring:
7 (tied with Wilt Chamberlain)
-Most consecutive seasons, 2,000 plus points: 11 (Tied
with Malone)
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 14 (twice, tied
with 5 other players)
-Most seasons leading the league in steals: 3 (tied
with two others)
NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan holds:
-Highest scoring average, career: 33.4ppg
-Record Total points: 5987
-Record Most FTS made: 1463
-Most points playoffs, one-game: 63
-Most points playoffs, three-game series: 135 (vs.
Miami, 1992)
-Most Points playoffs, five-game series: 226 (vs.
Cleveland, 1988)
-Most field goals made playoffs, three-game series:
53 (vs. Miami, 1992)
-Most field goals made playoffs, five-game series: 86
(vs. Philadelphia, 1990)
-Most field goals made playoffs, six-game series: 101
(vs. Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive 50pt games: 2
-Most consecutive 45pt games: 3
-Most consecutive games, 20 plus points: 60
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 13
-Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 14
-Most 50 point games: 8
-Most 40 point games: 39
-Most consecutive points: 23
NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals, in a game: 24 (vs. Cleveland, May
1, 1988; tied with two others)
-Most three-point field goals made, one half: 6
(first half vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with four
others)
NBA Finals records Michael Jordan holds:
- Highest Scoring average: 33.6
-Most points, six-game series: 246 (vs. Phoenix,
1993)
-Most field goals made, five-game series: 63 (vs.
L.A. Lakers, 1991)
-Most field goals made, six-game series: 101 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most steals, five-game series: 14 (vs. L.A. Lakers,
1991)
-Highest scoring average, one series: 41.0 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive games, 40-plus points: 4 (June 11,
1993 to June 18, 1993)
-Most consecutive 30 point games: 9
-Most consecutive games, 20-plus points: 29 (June 22,
1991 to June 1997)
-Most points, one-half: 35 (vs. Portland, June 3,
1992)
-Most consecutive field goals: 13 (Vs. LA)
-Most consecutive points: 23 (Vs. Seattle)
-Most Finals MVPs: 6
NBA Finals records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals made, one-half: 14 (vs. Portland,
June 3, 1992 and vs. Phoenix, June 16, 1993; tied with
Isiah Thomas)
-Most three-pointers made, one-half: 6 (vs. Portland,
June 3, 1992; tied with Kenny Smith)
-Most free throws made, one-quarter: 9 (at Utah, June
11, 1997; tied with Frank Ramsay)
-Most free throws attempted, one-half: 15 (at Utah,
June 4, 1997; tied with Bill Russell)[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR]
[B][COLOR="Navy"][COLOR="Navy"]so please no insult jordan. he is one of few players who is better than pippen[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]:applause:
[QUOTE=MaxFly]Yeah, I'm not sure Jordan's rookie season trounces Bryant's 02-03, 05-06 and 06-07 seasons. Let's be rational here...[/QUOTE]
Oh Really?
Let me repeat what I previously posted, in case U missed it:
"MJ's [B]"ROOKIE"[/B] season he had an NBA Efficiency Rating [B](PER)[/B] of [B]29.24, & 13.2 player wins[/B]. He also [B]IMPROVED[/B] them by 10 wins & took 'em to the Playoffs, a place they hadn't [B]SEEN[/B] since 1981..
Kobe's 2006-07 season, he had an NBA Efficiency Rating [B](PER)[/B] of [B]27.65 and 11.2 player wins[/B].
Well kobe homers, how do U explain that?
Not to mention MJ shot [B][I]52%[/I][/B] from the field his [B][U]ROOKIE[/U][/B] year, VS [B][I]46%[/I][/B] for kobe's 2007 campaign! In [B][I]FACT[/I][/B], from a shooting standpoint, MJ's [B][I][U]ROOKIE[/U][/I][/B] year, is [B][I][U]BETTER[/U][/I][/B] than [B][I][U]ANY[/U][/I][/B] of kobe's!!
Also during MJ's [B][I][U]ROOKIE[/U][/I][/B] year, he became the [B][I][U]ONLY[/U][/I][/B] player in history [I](at that time..Hakeem did it [B][U]LATER[/U][/B] in his career)[/I], to [B][I][U]LEAD[/U][/I][/B] his team in 4 of 5 categories [B][I](scoring, rebounding, assists & steals)[/I][/B]..[B][U]SHOW ME[/U][/B] a season at [B][U]ANY[/U][/B] point in kobe's career, where he's done [B][I][U]ANYTHING[/U][/I][/B] to this degree! I dare U!
Dr. J did it in the ABA, but [B][I][U]NEVER[/U][/I][/B] in the NBA. MJ came within [U][B]4 blocks[/B][/U] in 1989 of [B][U]REPEATING[/U][/B] this feat..
In the seasons [B][U]BEFORE[/U][/B] Pippen & Co., he had a [I][B]combined[/B][/I] average of [B]33ppg 5apg 6rpg 2.74spg 1.26bpg 49 FG%[/B].
Show me [B][I]ANY[/I][/B] season from kobe with better [B][U]OVERALL[/U][/B] Production than that?"
So I conclude this post, with the [B][I][U]SAME[/U][/I][/B] sentiment I expressed in the previous one: MJ's [U][I][B]ROOKIE[/B][/I][/U] season was productively [B][I][U]BETTER[/U][/I][/B], from an [B][I][U]OVERALL[/U][/I][/B] standpoint, & [B][U][I]TROUNCES[/I][/U][/B] any one of kobe's..
Ooops, you just popped another vein writing that point. Your blood pressure is high, and another Kobe>MJ post might give you a heart attack. :lol
In terms of [B][U]OVERALL[/U][/B] production, forget comparing him to MJ, he doesn't even stack up to Pippen!
[B][U]In 12 seasons for "BOTH" Kobe & Pippen[/U][/B]
[B]Steals[/B]: Pippen 1869 > kobe 1299
[B]Assists[/B]: Pippen 4737 > Kobe 3905
[B]Blocks[/B]: Pippen 802 > Kobe 501
[B]Rebounds[/B]: Pippen 5981 > Kobe 4472
[B]Points: (even with MJ as the 1st Option!)[/B] Pippen 21115 > Kobe 15713
[B]2000 Points in a season[/B] [B](Again, even with MJ as the 1st Option)[/B] Pippen 4 > Kobe 0
[B]80 game seasons[/B] Pippen 5 > Kobe 4
[B]Rings as the 2nd Option[/B]: Pippen 6 > Kobe 3
[QUOTE=StoneCold]In terms of [B][U]OVERALL[/U][/B] production, forget comparing him to MJ, he doesn't even stack up to Pippen!
[B][U]In 12 seasons for "BOTH" Kobe & Pippen[/U][/B]
[B]Steals[/B]: Pippen 1869 > kobe 1299
[B]Assists[/B]: Pippen 4737 > Kobe 3905
[B]Blocks[/B]: Pippen 802 > Kobe 501
[B]Rebounds[/B]: Pippen 5981 > Kobe 4472
[B]Points: (even with MJ as the 1st Option!)[/B] Pippen 21115 > Kobe 15713
[B]2000 Points in a season[/B] [B](Again, even with MJ as the 1st Option)[/B] Pippen 4 > Kobe 0
[B]80 game seasons[/B] Pippen 5 > Kobe 4
[B]Rings as the 2nd Option[/B]: Pippen 6 > Kobe 3[/QUOTE]
:applause:
[QUOTE=StoneCold]In terms of [B][U]OVERALL[/U][/B] production, forget comparing him to MJ, he doesn't even stack up to Pippen!
[B][U]In 12 seasons for "BOTH" Kobe & Pippen[/U][/B]
[B]Points: (even with MJ as the 1st Option!)[/B] Pippen 21115 > Kobe 15713
[B]2000 Points in a season[/B] [B](Again, even with MJ as the 1st Option[/QUOTE]
Are we talking about regular seasons here? Which seasons did Scottie score 2000 points?
[QUOTE=Voulnet]Ooops, you just popped another vein writing that point. Your blood pressure is high, and another Kobe>MJ post might give you a heart attack. :lol[/QUOTE]
More like [I][B]popped[/B][/I] the [I]"Opinion"[/I] filled balloon of another kobe homer's [B][U]UNINFORMED[/U][/B] argument..
Besides, I don't see U offering up [B][U]ANYTHING[/U][/B] other than the usual nonsensical rhetoric one tends to get from kobe homers when they can't refute what's being posted..
[QUOTE=Scott Pippen]:applause:[/QUOTE]
Scott... are the stats you're clapping about accurate?
I couldn't care less who is better out of a rookie MJ and a current KB. But I do know that posts with a ton of bold and underlining are extremely irritating to read.
[QUOTE]Points: (even with MJ as the 1st Option!) Pippen 21115 > Kobe 15713
2000 Points in a season (Again, even with MJ as the 1st Option) Pippen 4 > Kobe 0[/QUOTE]
?????
[QUOTE=Psileas]?????[/QUOTE]
Yeah, me too.
[QUOTE]Yeah but Jordan's rookie year was not in the superstar protected era Kobe played in. The game was far more physical in the 80's too.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: superstars were protected in the 80's just as much as they are now, and the game wasn't more physical, thats just the perception people get because the league didn't frown upon hard fouls back then like it does today.
[QUOTE]That just shows Jordan had clearly better numbers so when one playr has clearly better numbers the other usually isn't clearly better.[/QUOTE]
i was aware of the numbers jordan was putting up
[QUOTE]I can't see Kobe being a top 6 player in 2000. I don't consider him top 10 that year but I could see him top 5 in 2001 and 2004.[/QUOTE]
the only players better than kobe in '00 were o'neal, garnett, duncan, webber, and payton. top 6 in '01, and top 5 in '04
[QUOTE]As for Jordan's record well look at his supporting cast and then consider Kobe was playing with the best player in the league.[/QUOTE]
already taken into consideration. jordan did have orlando woolridge, who put up 23/6 with 55%fg on a nightly basis, but besides that he had junk, but 38 wins is 38 wins. putting up stats all day long doesn't mean **** if you're losing at the end of the day. kobe was only playing with the best player in the league in 2000 and 2001.
[QUOTE]Yeah but because you are the first option the entire team is aiming to stop you.[/QUOTE]
either that or they are letting you get your points and shutting down the rest of the team
[QUOTE]Kobe played with the best player in the league so he had a far easier time getting shots because the defense couldn't aim to stop him as much as they could with Jordan. That's why Kobe shot a better % when Shaq was on the team than he did after Shaq left.[/QUOTE]
what? bryant's highest four years of TS% were the four years he's played without shaq :lol
[QUOTE]That is significant because Kobe has been better in the post Shaq era.[/QUOTE]
2003 remains to be kobe's peak. first year post shaq he was the worst he'd been since 1999, second year post shaq he was better than any year besides '03, third year post shaq he wasn't as good as he was in '00, '01, and obviously '03, and this year he was better than any year with shaq besides '03.
[QUOTE]And your point is? a 3 point shot is 23,9 not 18-20 feet.[/QUOTE]
the point is bryant had more range
[QUOTE=Scott Pippen]:applause:[/QUOTE]
That is one of the worse rebuttal in a basketball forum, and we didn't even know if he is posting some accurate facts, or just telling some Urban Legend to make us believe that Pippen is > Kobe.
[QUOTE=StoneCold]In terms of [B][U]OVERALL[/U][/B] production, forget comparing him to MJ, he doesn't even stack up to Pippen!
[B][U]In 12 seasons for "BOTH" Kobe & Pippen[/U][/B]
[B]Steals[/B]: Pippen 1869 > kobe 1299
[B]Assists[/B]: Pippen 4737 > Kobe 3905
[B]Blocks[/B]: Pippen 802 > Kobe 501
[B]Rebounds[/B]: Pippen 5981 > Kobe 4472
[B]Points: (even with MJ as the 1st Option!)[/B] Pippen 21115 > Kobe 15713
[B]2000 Points in a season[/B] [B](Again, even with MJ as the 1st Option)[/B] Pippen 4 > Kobe 0
[B]80 game seasons[/B] Pippen 5 > Kobe 4
[B]Rings as the 2nd Option[/B]: Pippen 6 > Kobe 3[/QUOTE]
I swear you made most of these up...
[QUOTE=plowking]I swear you made most of these up...[/QUOTE]
Specifically, the "total points" and "2000 points in a season" argument.
People tend to disappear when they're called on things that they post.
Pip has never scored 2,000 points in a season. Kobe has done it 5 times.
[QUOTE=Shep]:oldlol: superstars were protected in the 80's just as much as they are now, and the game wasn't more physical, thats just the perception people get because the league didn't frown upon hard fouls back then like it does today.[/QUOTE]
You honestly think Jordan got protected by the league and the reds when he first entered the league? Jordan was expected to be good but he wasn't expected to be the best ever when he was drafted. Jordan easily had to deal with tougher fouls and more contact in his rookie season.
[QUOTE]the only players better than kobe in '00 were o'neal, garnett, duncan, webber, and payton. [/QUOTE]
Throw in Grant Hill, Alonzo Mourning, Jason Kidd, Karl Malone, Vince Carter and arguably guys like Dikembe Mutombo and Michael Finley..
[QUOTE]top 6 in '01[/QUOTE]
I actually got him right around number 6 too maybe top 5. Top 5-7. Either way it's close enough.
[QUOTE]and top 5 in '04[/QUOTE]
I got him 4-6 so top 5 is fair.
[QUOTE]already taken into consideration. jordan did have orlando woolridge, who put up 23/6 with 55%fg on a nightly basis, but besides that he had junk, but 38 wins is 38 wins. putting up stats all day long doesn't mean **** if you're losing at the end of the day.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but my point is if Kobe didn't have Shaq then how mnay wins do you really think he would have had in 2000?
[QUOTE]kobe was only playing with the best player in the league in 2000 and 2001.[/QUOTE]
If you mean among 2000, 2001 and 2004 then yeah that sounds right because KG and Duncan could easily be argued as better players in 2004.
[QUOTE]either that or they are letting you get your points and shutting down the rest of the team[/QUOTE]
Yeah but teams usually made stopping Jordan did their number 1 priority.
[QUOTE]what? bryant's highest four years of TS% were the four years he's played without shaq :lol [/QUOTE]
Part of that is because he's improved as a three point shooter.
In 1999 Bryant shot 26.7% on 3's, in 2000 he shot 31.9% on 3's, in 2001 he shot 30.5% on 3's and in 2002 he shot 25.0% on 3's.
His 3P% was bringing down his TS%. Bryant's TS% probably has a lot to do with him working hard to improve his 3 point shot.
[QUOTE]2003 remains to be kobe's peak. first year post shaq he was the worst he'd been since 1999, second year post shaq he was better than any year besides '03, third year post shaq he wasn't as good as he was in '00, '01, and obviously '03, and this year he was better than any year with shaq besides '03.[/QUOTE]
I agree 2003 was his peak and I'd rank him above Shaq that year. I also agree that his second best was probably 2006 when he carried that team while averaging 35.4 ppg and this season sounds like his 3rd best. 2002 is an underrated season for Kobe because he played 80 games and was a big part of a 58 win team. Kobe also played great team basketball that year.
[QUOTE]the point is bryant had more range[/QUOTE]
Yeah, so? I was just pointing out Jordan did have range beyond 15 feet back then. Having more range also doesn't mean a lot in deciding who the better player is.
There are way too many stats in this thread. Stats have their place, but they never tell the entire story.
For people who somehow think that Kobe > MJ, do yourself a favor and find a site that sells games on DVD. Then watch some of Jordan's best games along with Kobe's best games. Your eyes will not deceive you -- the gulf between the two is very wide. And I'm saying this as a Kobe fan.
[QUOTE=Shep]no it wasn't. there was only 2 or 3 good defensive teams in the league in '85. pace was high, and with this comes increased statistics - part of the reason for jordan's numbers being higher than bryant's. teams averaged 111 ppg on 89 fga per game and shot the ball 49% from the field, with detroit leading the league with an almost inconceivable 98 fga per game, and denver averaging 120ppg. 19 years later teams averaged 93 ppg on 80 fga per game and shot the ball 44% from the field.
:confusedshrug:
games played doesn't come into discussion. are we talking about who was the better player or who had the better season? factor in pace and kobe narrows the gap in all statistical area's where he trailed mj..and sometimes he beats him. as for fg% kobe shot the ball equal to or better than the league average every year, mj was only 2% better than the league average in '85..so it wasn't a "much better %" when you think about it.
once again kobe was a far better defender than mj was at this point, including 1st team all-defense in '00, '03, and '04, and 2nd team all-defense in '01, and '02. kobe was also part of hugely successful teams, and for the years you are arguing against him he was a top 6 player in the nba each year. jordan led his team to a pitiful 38-44 record.
this means you have the ball in your hands at all times. you don't have to share the ball, and you can do what you want, when you want with the ball..especially because your team is going nowhere.
jordan shot the three ball at 17% in his rookie year..made 9 shots in 82 games, 3144 minutes. a three pointer was made by michael jordan every 349 minutes of actual court time, or every 9 games. he couldn't shoot. its a fact. most of his baskets came from isolation plays where he took his man off the dribble[/QUOTE]
you obviously don't understand how basketball works..hand checking = tougher defense..its harder to score on someone with their hands all over you...and more points doesn't equal worse defense it means more shots were taken because coaches had more trust in players to shoot better from outside..it was okay back then to come down by yourself 1 on 4 and jack up a shot because guys were better shooters
[QUOTE=Shep]what? bryant's highest four years of TS% were the four years he's played without shaq :lol [/quote]
Give Kobe a normal amount of FT's (say, 7-8/gm) as opposed to the absurd amount he's received (10+) the past several years based on his style of play (80% of his shots are jumpers) and see how his "TS%" looks. This is why Kobe fans like to point to TS%.
[QUOTE=Loki]Give Kobe a normal amount of FT's (say, 7-8/gm) as opposed to the absurd amount he's received (10+) the past several years and see how his "TS%" looks.
LOL @ [B]a guy whose shot attempts consist of 80% jumpers[/B] getting to the line 10+ times per year. This is why Kobe fans like to point to TS%.[/QUOTE]
Obviously you haven't watched too many Lakers game this year -- and certainly not in the playoffs. Dude is scoring everywhere on the court... 3pointers, jumpers, slashing, posting up, in transition. WTF, are you talking about?
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]There are way too many stats in this thread. Stats have their place, but they never tell the entire story.
For people who somehow think that Kobe > MJ, do yourself a favor and find a site that sells games on DVD. Then watch some of Jordan's best games along with Kobe's best games. Your eyes will not deceive you -- the gulf between the two is very wide. And I'm saying this as a Kobe fan.[/QUOTE]
Not that wide, in fact probably even on offense. Jordan's biggest edge over his peers was his consistency -- he was money in the bank everynight. MJ was consistently on his A game more than almost any other player who has ever played. But if you match his best vs Kobe's best, then i don't think it's that wide at all.
[QUOTE=chopchop20]Obviously you haven't watched too many Lakers game this year -- and certainly not in the playoffs. Dude is scoring everywhere on the court... 3pointers, jumpers, slashing, posting up, in transition. WTF, are you talking about?[/QUOTE]
How about you read the quote I was responding to, which clearly said "the last 4 years." Thanks.
EDIT: And yeah, he's been more aggressive this year -- only 75% of his attempts were jumpers as opposed to 80% the past few seasons. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=chopchop20]Not that wide, in fact probably even on offense. Jordan's biggest edge over his peers was his consistency -- he was money in the bank everynight. MJ was consistently on his A game more than almost any other player who has ever played. But if you match his best vs Kobe's best, then i don't think it's that wide at all.[/QUOTE]
I said that the gulf was wide, and that's what I meant. Your point about Jordan's consistency is true, but that wasn't what I was referring to. The difference, to me, is in the subtleties of MJ's game and the apparent ease of execution that Kobe simply can't match.
While both were capable of scoring at prodigious rates, its easy to see MJ's superiority when you look at the games. Even the so-called advantage Kobe has from longer range is negated by the fact that MJ never really focused on that aspect of his game, preferring to go inside. The first half of the 1992 Finals against Portland, when he scored 35 in the first half, with six three pointers, is a case in point.
If you haven't watched MJ's games on a fairly recent basis, then I can't accept your analysis.
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]I said that the gulf was wide, and that's what I meant. Your point about Jordan's consistency is true, but that wasn't what I was referring to. [B]The difference, to me, is in the subtleties of MJ's game and the apparent ease of execution that Kobe simply can't match[/B].
While both were capable of scoring at prodigious rates, its easy to see MJ's superiority when you look at the games. Even the so-called advantage Kobe has from longer range is negated by the fact that MJ never really focused on that aspect of his game, preferring to go inside. The first half of the 1992 Finals against Portland, when he scored 35 in the first half, with six three pointers, is a case in point.
If you haven't watched MJ's games on a fairly recent basis, then I can't accept your analysis.[/QUOTE]
I agree, especially with the bolded portion. Picc84 actually had a great quote about this difference between them, quoted below (this post was made in April of '07):
[quote=picc84]Jordan makes the game as easy as possible for himself, and makes it look as easy as possible. Kobe looks like he tries to make it as HARD for himself as possible. Jordan looks like he's playing in rec games the way he weaves between everywhere and does whatever he wants. Kobe looks like he's playing in an NBA game. Which isnt bad, since thats what he's really doing. But its not Jordan.[/quote]
That summarizes the difference in feeling I have when watching each of them play.
[QUOTE=iamgine]Obviously current Kobe. [B]I'd prefer to watch Mike again though.[/QUOTE][/B]
If you actually watched Mike, the obviously would be the other way around.
Kobe can't even get to the hole currently. His game right now is jump into a crowd of people and wait for a whistle. He's currently so unathletic it is a joke.
MJ was a freak of nature.
'84 MJ would take out current Kobe, '87 MJ would laugh at him.
[QUOTE=StoneCold]Actually, this is kobe's [B]12th year[/B] & you're [I][B]ABSOLUTELY[/B][/I] right!!
And I've already [B]PROVEN[/B] that [B][I][U]OVERALL[/U][/I][/B], MJ's [B][I]ROOKIE[/I][/B] season [B][I][U]TROUNCES[/U][/I][/B] any season kobe has [B][I]EVER[/I][/B] had in a previous post on this thread..
If U have to compare a [B]ROOKIE[/B] or [B]Wizard's[/B] MJ to Kobe to get a favorable comparison, that [I][B]IN ITSELF[/B][/I], not only highlights how [B][U][I]TRULY[/I][/U][/B] desperate kobe fans are to find a way around the [B]FACTS[/B] regarding this absurd comparison, but it really shows their [B][I][U]DESPERATION[/U][/I][/B] in trying to prove kobe is #1 [B][I]ALL TIME[/I][/B] or at least in the running for that honor, but they keep getting [B][I][U]BLINDSIDED[/U][/I][/B] by a little something called [I][B][U]FACTS[/U][/B][/I], that'll continue to blow their silly & [B][I]UNINFORMED[/I][/B] argument, which is nothing more than their [I][B]"opinions"[/B][/I] to begin with, out of the water [B][I][U]EVERYTIME[/U][/I][/B] & [I][U][B]PROVE[/B][/U][/I] them [B]WRONG[/B] in the process..
Hey kobe homers, ask yourselves this question: If kobe's the better player, "[B]WHY"[/B] do U have to [B][U]CONSTANTLY[/U][/B] use MJ as the measuring stick to determine [B]"HOW"[/B] good kobe is & [B]"WHERE"[/B] he ranks in the Pantheon of Guards?
That [B][U]OUGHT[/U][/B] to tell U something is wrong about your claims regarding him being so much better than MJ!! If he truly were better, in 12 yrears of play, his offensive & defensive resume would've been [B][U]FAR[/U][/B] beyond anything MJ [B][U]EVER[/U][/B] did! But it's not!
In [B]FACT[/B], the changes to the Defensive Rules is what has [B][U]ALLOWED[/U][/B] kobe to even be included in this argument..
[B][U]Kobe Bryant in years that handchecking was allowed:[/U][/B]
561 games - 21.77 ppg on 42% shooting
[B][U]Kobe Bryant in the final 3 years handchecking was allowed (2001-04)[/U][/B]
227 games - 24.29ppg on 43% shooting
[B][U]Kobe Bryant
[QUOTE=Scott Pippen][B][COLOR="Sienna"][COLOR="Sienna"]Let's just start off by saying one thing: MJ was never
considered the best player because he scored 50 points
for 'x amount' of games against the worst teams during
the regular season. He's considered the greatest
because he played his greatest games against the
greatest teams in the playoffs. Remember, it was just
last year that ESPN banned comparing KB to MJ after
his Game 7 disappearing act.
Now, KB has done some things MJ hasn't done of course
but there are dozens and dozens of feats KB will never
even come close to doing that MJ has done (see
bottom). Single scoring feats are pretty much all he
can try as MJ left that type of game a long time ago
in order to build a better team. If you want to build
an argument, let's put some numbers to back it up.
Your article was all opinion and loose observation.
I'm going to go through your article point by point.
1) Kobe is as good a defender. OK, right there, I
almost stopped reading. Not even the biggest Kobe
homing 12 year old kids will say this. In fact, they
point that this is Kobe's biggest gap between him and
MJ. It's actually safe to say that MJ at age 40 was a
better defender than KB is now. MJ at age 40 averaged
MORE steals AND blocks than KB now at fewer minutes
per game. MJ in his prime averaged TWICE as much. MJ
holds the record for most blocks by a guard (131) and
is the first and only guard to record 200 steals and
100 blocks in the same year - twice. He remains
unbreakable here - 9 all-first Defensive awards plus
the DPOY in 1988, steals leader 3 times etc. Not even
close. Kobe's got 4 all-first Defensive awards that
Sports Illustrated calls "dubious at best" -
especially with Shaq covering 3 of them. And, MJ never
let up on his D when he was scoring 50. He was
frenetic on both ends constantly. When KB goes to
offense mode, his D. disappears as his energy is
focused on scoring. I believe he had only 7 steals and
1 block in his 5 game scoring spree - not exactly MJ
material.
2) MJ was a worse teammate and ball hog? Did you get
this quote from a basketball forum? Sure, MJ was a
tough teammate and was also selfish but he had a great
excuse - he was shooting 3-6% better than his team. KB
shoots 3-6 WORSE than LA. Nothing but nonsense here
anyway as players soon picked up their duties around
MJ and he became the best teammate and leader on his
way to 6 rings. As Magic said during MJ's 37.1ppg
season, "We know MJ can score but he needs to make his
teammates better and win" and that's exactly what he
did to squash the selfish-ballhog title forever. Now,
if KB can shoot 3-6% better than his team - he has a
license to hog as well. Unfortunately, this 5 game
streak was his only license as he has shot a mediocre
45% through his career. MJ had that license for a
decade with his career 50% FG. How can you compare?
You can't.
3) MJ would have problems playing with Shaq? I guess
you missed his interview in Cigar: "Give me a 7-footer
like Shaq and I'd still be playing today". MJ knew it
was all about the rings.
4) Best player argument? Sure, KB is the best right
now. But, that argument might be good for 2 of his 11
years. That doesn't hold water for the rest of NBA
history nor does it hold water against MJ's dominance
for a decade and a half. And, plenty of people will
argue for Shaq, Wade, Duncan as well still.
5) Today's athletes are bigger, stronger, faster. OK,
you should have checked the stats. MJ played in the
Big Man era - the tallest 4 year span ever was 85-89
with the single tallest year ever in 1987 at 6-7.62
(the year MJ scored 37.1ppg). Today, it's down to
6-7.26, Now, the players today are more wing players
than Big players but that's because of all the MJ
wannabes. You got it right that players are stronger
and faster (weights, more athletic scouting) but that
number has remained steady since MJ's last 3 peat when
he was killing it at ages 33-35. It's EVEN more
impressive that MJ's last 3 peat still had him
dominating when there was still some form of hand
checking allowed. Any strength advantage today's
players have is gone through the no-hand-checks which
remains the single greatest change in the game today.
Don't forget the Jordan Rules as well - the most
destructive defense ever for one player in an era of
no flagrants.
6) NBA is tougher now? You did know it's the 'no
hand-check era'. You do know there were no 'flagrants'
back in the day right? You need to read Lazenby's
"Death of Defense" regarding the no-hand-checks.
[url]http://lakernoise.blogspot.com/2006/...e-article.html[/url]
7) Kobe is surrounded by mediocre talent. True but
look again, KB's team is actually better than you
think and it's easily better than the coke-sniffing
thugs MJ played with early in his career. This is a
topic I that needs another 5 pages so I won't go there
now. Don't forget, Kobe had the best team early in his
career and look what he wanted to give up. Your
argument that Phoenix and the Spurs are better than
the Suns of yesterday are arguable at best. Do they
compare to the Pistons or Knicks on the Eastern end of
MJ's run as well?
8) Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing didn't affect the game like
Shaq and Duncan. Excuse me but MJ ANNIHILATED the
greatest centers INSTEAD OF HAVING THEM ON HIS OWN
TEAM. I'm going to think this was typo - nothing could
be this ignorant. Let's put it this way, MJ played
greater than the greatest centers in an era where
there were still true centers and he ended up denying
all of them rings. MJ ended up with the #1 PER rating
in history - above Wilt, Shaq and Robinson. The reason
why title teams are built around centers is because
they perform at the highest efficiency. MJ defied
logic and performed at an even higher efficiency which is
why he remains the exception - a 'center's
productivity in a guard's package'. One of Kobe's main
problems is that he knows this. That's why he wanted
to get his own team because he knew he could never be
the greatest behind a dominant big man.
Conclusion: Whether you like Kobe or not, he's the
best answer for the best player today and the closest
to MJ in skill. But, that's where it ends. The scoring
bursts against the bottom 26-30 defensive teams are
great but very self-conscious and still nothing
compared to Wilt. Wilt scored over 70 5 times in his
career and he's no MJ either. And, KB has nothing
going on in the playoffs as an individual - the only
place where things matter and the world watches. If MJ
dropped everything to push a scoring feat (dropped
defense, dropped resting minutes, dropped developing
real team chemistry) and all he went for was pushing
50 points - he'd never, ever have won and he wouldn't
be the MJ we know today. He'd just be known as a scorer
in the regular season and as worthless as A-rod in the
real season. But regardless, MJ still owns the most
scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF
Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at
the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important
ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1. Take away Wilt and MJ
climbs to 26 and Kobe has 8. Below that are MJ's
records and KB's records. Not ever close.
Again, MJ retired as the greatest playoff performer
ever which is where he solidified himself as the
greatest ever.
It's not repugnant to say someone is better than MJ.
It's just impossible and we can back that all day with
numbers.
Best,
xxxxxx[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]
Another great post. Damn...I don't have to write anything.
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]There are way too many stats in this thread. Stats have their place, but they never tell the entire story.
For people who somehow think that Kobe > MJ, do yourself a favor and find a site that sells games on DVD. Then watch some of Jordan's best games along with Kobe's best games. Your eyes will not deceive you -- the gulf between the two is very wide. And I'm saying this as a Kobe fan.[/QUOTE]
Best advice ever given on ISH. Watch the games. :pimp:
[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Great post. :applause:[/QUOTE]
It's actually a horrible post, but I'll leave it up to you to figure out why.
StoneCold... we're still waiting on you to clarify the stats you posted... Some of them seem... off.
[QUOTE=Loki]I agree, especially with the bolded portion. Picc84 actually had a great quote about this difference between them, quoted below (this post was made in April of '07):
[quote]Originally Posted by picc84
Jordan makes the game as easy as possible for himself, and makes it look as easy as possible. Kobe looks like he tries to make it as HARD for himself as possible. Jordan looks like he's playing in rec games the way he weaves between everywhere and does whatever he wants. Kobe looks like he's playing in an NBA game. Which isnt bad, since thats what he's really doing. But its not Jordan.[/quote]
That summarizes the difference in feeling I have when watching each of them play.[/QUOTE]
Totally agreed. Nice summary of the difference between the two.
[quote=StoneCold]In terms of [B][U]OVERALL[/U][/B] production, forget comparing him to MJ, he doesn't even stack up to Pippen!
[B][U]In 12 seasons for "BOTH" Kobe & Pippen[/U][/B]
[B]Steals[/B]: Pippen 1869 > kobe 1299
[B]Assists[/B]: Pippen 4737 > Kobe 3905
[B]Blocks[/B]: Pippen 802 > Kobe 501
[B]Rebounds[/B]: Pippen 5981 > Kobe 4472
[B]Points: (even with MJ as the 1st Option!)[/B] Pippen 21115 > Kobe 15713
[B]2000 Points in a season[/B] [B](Again, even with MJ as the 1st Option)[/B] Pippen 4 > Kobe 0
[B]80 game seasons[/B] Pippen 5 > Kobe 4
[B]Rings as the 2nd Option[/B]: Pippen 6 > Kobe 3[/quote]
Here's the real stats, I used Pippen's stats from 89-90 (3rd year in league, first as full time starter) to 00-01 and Kobe's whole career, including his 15mpg rookie year. All stats from NBA.com, all all for regular season
Steals: Kobe 1321, Pippen 1850
Assists: Kobe 4002, Pippen 5012
Blocks: Kobe 507, Pippen 765
Boards: Kobe 4590, Pippen 6084
Points: Kobe 21,619, Pippen 15,683
2k point seasons: Kobe 5, Pippen 0 (career high of 1720)
80 game seasons: Kobe 4, Pippen 6 (50 or less games seasons: Kobe 1, Pippen 2)
Other than points, and a few stats here and there, what he posted was accurate.
[QUOTE=MaxFly]It's actually a horrible post, but I'll leave it up to you to figure out why.
StoneCold... we're still waiting on you to clarify the stats you posted... Some of them seem... off.[/QUOTE]
Agreed...there's no way in hell I'd pick a rookie Jordan over Kobe now. I'd have no problems taking an '87 Jordan over an '06 Kobe but really this thread is ridiculous on [b]all[/b] levels. Different eras, different defenses, different players...
[QUOTE=InspiredLebowski]Here's the real stats, I used Pippen's stats from 89-90 (3rd year in league, first as full time starter) to 00-01 and Kobe's whole career, including his 15mpg rookie year. All stats from NBA.com, all all for regular season
Steals: Kobe 1321, Pippen 1850
Assists: Kobe 4002, Pippen 5012
Blocks: Kobe 507, Pippen 765
Boards: Kobe 4590, Pippen 6084
Points: Kobe 21,619, Pippen 15,683
2k point seasons: Kobe 5, Pippen 0 (career high of 1720)
80 game seasons: Kobe 4, Pippen 6 (50 or less games seasons: Kobe 1, Pippen 2)
Other than points, and a few stats here and there, what he posted was accurate.[/QUOTE]
Would you then conclude from those stats that Scottie is the better player than Bryant?