Verdict is in: Jordan STILL consensus GOAT

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14967086]This is where lack of self awareness shows. In 96(and honestly it was more like 98 not 96, I was there.) it was unanimous for us young Mj stans, just like the Lebron goat supporters today for the most part. There still existed older, more mature fans that still thought someone else was goat, we just didn't think they knew what the hell they were talking about. And plus we were all in air Jordan's how could you tell us otherwise? Lol.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, there were still a few people who had Wilt or Kareem as GOAT, but they were not the majority. Even the old heads were already saying MJ was the greatest player to ever step on the court.

The nearly 70% of fans who rank Jordan #1 are not all an older generation who watched basketball in the 90s. There's not enough of them to comprise that percentage.

[QUOTE=Full Court;14967088]Yeah, there were still a few people who had Wilt or Kareem as GOAT, but they were not the majority. Even the old heads were already saying MJ was the greatest player to ever step on the court.

The nearly 70% of fans who rank Jordan #1 are not all an older generation who watched basketball in the 90s. There's not enough of them to comprise that percentage.[/QUOTE]

Honestly it was never a big contingency calling Kareem goat although his greatness was always recognized. It was moreso about Wilt, Mj was set on measuring up to Wilt, it wasn't so much about rings until he got the 6th and had more than Magic, then, no surprise it because a big talking point. Before that nobody used rings as the end all be all of the goat debate, just this stupid generation. And the kids today aren't even hiding the fact that their choices are more about hating on Lebron than who they saw or prefer lol. Him and Kobe were some of the 1st in the era of polarizing faces of sports. Along with Floyd(Mayweather) they were like the pioneers of having as many haters as fans, Mj didn't have to worry as out that he came from a simpler time where good guys wore white and bad guys wore black and you believed it. This has as much to do with the goat conversation as any stats or accomplishment imo having watched it evolve over a few decades.....

As I recall it, some people had Wilt as goat in the 90s and people sort of accepted that, because of the stats and the mythical nature. Some had Bird, which people didn't argue against, cause it was mostly your racist uncle, so no use.

[QUOTE=90sgoat;14967184]As I recall it, some people had Wilt as goat in the 90s and people sort of accepted that, because of the stats and the mythical nature. Some had Bird, which people didn't argue against, cause it was mostly your racist uncle, so no use.[/QUOTE]

Bill Russell was called the GOAT in 1980 I think by a peer/media vote. There's always been sort of a revolving conversation with the GOAT debate and with good reason: the criteria is forever changing and shifting. MJ kind of came along and combined all elements into one package which is why he's gotten the nod for most of the past 30 years. He also robbed himself of stats and accolades by retiring twice in the 90s. 94 was probably another championship year and scoring title at the very least. Really if MJ hadn't missed most of 86 with a broken foot, most of 95 being retired, and hung around till like 2000( ( I think he would have officially passed the torch to Kobe and Shaq that year), he would have been the first to pass Kareem's scoring at 37-38 years old.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14967164]Honestly it was never a big contingency calling Kareem goat although his greatness was always recognized. It was moreso about Wilt, Mj was set on measuring up to Wilt, it wasn't so much about rings until he got the 6th and had more than Magic, then, no surprise it because a big talking point. Before that nobody used rings as the end all be all of the goat debate, just this stupid generation. And the kids today aren't even hiding the fact that their choices are more about hating on Lebron than who they saw or prefer lol. Him and Kobe were some of the 1st in the era of polarizing faces of sports. Along with Floyd(Mayweather) they were like the pioneers of having as many haters as fans, Mj didn't have to worry as out that he came from a simpler time where good guys wore white and bad guys wore black and you believed it. This has as much to do with the goat conversation as any stats or accomplishment imo having watched it evolve over a few decades.....[/QUOTE]

Yet a couple decades after his retirement, history is still kind to Jordan. I guarantee the next generation will not be so kind to Lebron, and for good reason.

MJ only lost to 1 or 2 seeds with rookie teams, while Lebron lost to 3 and 4 seeds with league favorites in 10' and 11'

There are so many way to demonstrate Jordan's superiority.

Lebron needed sidekicks that made the Finals without him and outplayed league MVP's like Kyrie, Wade or Love, while Pippen never made the Finals without Jordan and was never expected to compete with the top players like Shaq or Barkley, let alone outplay them.

Again, there are so many ways.

The "best basketball" can be defined as dominant champions that averaged 1 loss per round or less (4 losses max), or dynasties that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years (i.e. 3 in 5 years).

Accordingly, since possession-tracking began in 1997, 1st options with a career assisted rate above 40% (jumpshooters or bigs) were 1st option for 12 of 12 dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball).. Otoh, 1st options with a career assisted rate below 40% (ball-dominators) were never 1st option for the best basketball (0 for 12).

Since the best jumpshooters and bigs produce the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which means the first ball-dominators appear in the all-time rankings BEHIND the best bigs and jumpshooters.. The full rankings are MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar - the 2nd thru 10th spots are more interchangeable and subjective, but it's set in stone that MJ is #1 and ball-dominators are no higher than 11th, based on the historical record that ball-dominators are never the 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions)..

The issue is that low-assisted 1st options have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.. This is statistical fact (that highly-assisted 1st options produce MUCH higher-assist teams).

[QUOTE=Phoenix]Bill Russell was called the GOAT in 1980 I think by a peer/media vote. There's always been sort of a revolving conversation with the GOAT debate and with good reason: the criteria is forever changing and shifting. MJ kind of came along and combined all elements into one package which is why he's gotten the nod for most of the past 30 years. He also robbed himself of stats and accolades by retiring twice in the 90s. 94 was probably another championship year and scoring title at the very least. Really if MJ hadn't missed most of 86 with a broken foot, most of 95 being retired, and hung around till like 2000( ( I think he would have officially passed the torch to Kobe and Shaq that year), he would have been the first to pass Kareem's scoring at 37-38 years old.[/QUOTE]

Yep. Russell was voted the GOAT in 1980 and by a pretty large margin. Most people don't realize this.

[QUOTE=Full Court;14967188]Yet a couple decades after his retirement, history is still kind to Jordan. I guarantee the next generation will not be so kind to Lebron, and for good reason.[/QUOTE]

A couple of decades after retirement has been kind to most legends bud. I expect it to last a but longer for Mj because there's actually tape on enough of his career to not fade away like the 60s guys did by the 2000s. But make no mistake, the fading comes for everyone eventually, cycle of life my friend.

Jordan is too much of a mythical figure to fade away. His shoe brand is as popular as ever. The eye test on him suggests something of a one of one. Something Bill Russell cannot say to both of those things. Nobody on this forum will outlive the Jordan = GOAT narrative

Babe Ruth is still considered the GOAT of baseball, he played like 100 years ago.

Ruth was different though, he was hitting more home runs than other teams combined in some years and as a pitcher he led the league in ERA one year. Also helps that he won 7 world series and played for the most famous franchise in baseball history.

I don't think MJ left his mark the way Ruth did.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14967433]Jordan is too much of a mythical figure to fade away. His shoe brand is as popular as ever. The eye test on him suggests something of a one of one. Something Bill Russell cannot say to both of those things. Nobody on this forum will outlive the Jordan = GOAT narrative[/QUOTE]

In 100 years nobody will care about Michael Jordan. In fact there's a really good chance that nobody even cares about basketball at all.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14967433]Jordan is too much of a mythical figure to fade away. His shoe brand is as popular as ever. [B]The eye test on him suggests something of a one of one[/B]. Something Bill Russell cannot say to both of those things. Nobody on this forum will outlive the Jordan = GOAT narrative[/QUOTE]

Kobe Bryant says otherwise. And there's never been another guy like Russell.

[QUOTE=Wardell Curry;14967447]In 100 years nobody will care about Michael Jordan. In fact there's a really good chance that nobody even cares about basketball at all.[/QUOTE]

You may be right. But even fewer people will care about the guy known as LeShrivel, that's for sure. I know that really upsets some people on here.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14967449]Kobe Bryant says otherwise. And there's never been another guy like Russell.[/QUOTE]

There are a few key differences between those two that make the eye test pretty conclusive that MJ was a different cat.

First was his athletic ability. He was just a better athlete. Better first step, better leaper, better vertical and hang time on him pull up jumper. MJ is probably the best basketball athlete for a guard ever.

Secondly MJ could do things in traffic with the ball Kobe couldn't because of the hand size difference.

There hasn't been another Bill in terms of winning but what I said about having a shoe line as popular as Jordans (keeps him extremely relevant with the younger generations) is very true. Bill has nothing like that whatsoever.

And if you watch Bill Russell's highlights as a player you aren't saying WOW. I haven't seen that before.

The way they played BBall and moved looked ancient compared to now. Jordans library of highlights can match or exceed anyone's currently playing. If there were a 30 minute reel of Bills highlights most young people would turn that shit off within a few minutes because it doesn't look good, point blank period.

Doesn't take away from Bill. He was the best of his era.

That era was definitely not a great looking game of basketball though. The game was still in its development stage. MJs game looks modern besides not jacking up 10 3s a game.