Wilt Chamberlain discussion

[QUOTE=Scott Pippen]You don't think this may have anything at all do with how they measured players then (without shoes) vs now (+ the exaggerated heights) and sometimes apparently not even updating their college measurements/weights back then.[/QUOTE]

Uh, lots of people are still listed barefoot and shoes don't add that much. Its incorrect to assume that every player from that era is 2 inches taller in comparison to today. And what about the average weight going way up without speed going down but up as well? Measurement changes to height, which are not universal at all, don't change that.

[QUOTE=halffttime]damn, didnt know the skills were that bad back then.. so many shots not even close to going in.. :rolleyes:

if only i was born in that era, with the skills i have now, id be HOF..[/QUOTE]

I know huh? Its pretty amazing to watch those guys and realize that with your game you could probably make the NBA. I'm 6'2" and not blessed with the crazy fast twitch muscles and have known since HS there was no shot.

What I find amusing is how people just ignore how much jumping changes the game. When a guy can jump and kiss the rim its not even the same sport. I don't think many of the guys who are so offended have ever really played against a guy who can throw down on them. It goes like this:

You try to play hard.

The guy dunks on your head 3 times in a row and jumps from way outside the key to grab boards you can't box him out for.

You realize that you're being toyed with and the more you try the more he's going to stop playing and decimate you.

You test the theory and try harder.

He reverse dunks on you and throws in a pump for effect. After he comes down he gives you a wink and says confidently 'all day' as he jogs past not even breaking a sweat.

You call your buddy to help double team him. He dunks on both of you or dishes to his buddy for the open lay up.

That's actually a nice player. If they're not nice, after dunking on you for the 8'th time in a row going "WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!" or some shiz you realize how incredible people who can make the pros today really are because this dude is only 6'3" and you're playing in the local YMCA in a tiny city and you have to relegate yourself to a league where you can compete.

This is how ball works today.

[QUOTE=indiefan23]You know, I'm not trolling for a response. I'm sick and tired of me saying something like "Young Shaq was the most athletic big of all time" and then some other guy coming and trolling what I'm saying with some horse crap about how Wilt Chamberlain was a great arm wrestler and got lots of points and boards against players who couldn't jump or dribble and smoked butts during games. Its just BS.

You're a serious poster? Explain to me how in the 40's when that era started playing basketball (with soccer balls) the world population was three times smaller and bball was only popular in the states and then only played by a small proportion of the people. Today ball is international, the second largest and fastest growing sport in the world. So explain to me how you think taking the few hundred best players from a talent pool 1000's of times smaller and who have inferior training techniques and time to dedicate to the game can possibly produce a group of players at the same athletic level?

If we took two groups of random players in any sport, one was 100 and the other was 100,000, and we took the 10 best from each group and your wife's life depended on you betting on the winner, you're telling me you put the money of the best 10 from 1000? If you're serious, answer that and make me understand how it works.

Joking right? Hayes retired in 1981 long before the peak of the NBA which was absolutely 10 years later in the very late 80's and very early 90's. So did Enseld before the best rebounders in history were even drafted. Kareem was a great player but his career was winding down just as the best bigs of all time were young young players. After 81 Kareem was still in his prime and pulled down less then 8 boards for the rest of his career. A far cry from the 17 he pulled down in his hey day and weak era.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

[B]Kareem pulled down 6-7 boards per game at ages 35-40 and playing only 28-33 Minutes Per Game..

Then Again...his Lakers had Enough Rebounders even on the Deep Bench...Magic hismelf, Worthy, Rambis, Thompson, McAdoo, Ac.Green..they alli took part of that Showtime Team with the Greatest Passing and Fastbreak IQ Ever.

Kareem whom at ages 39 to 41 faced Hakeem at ages 24 to 27 in a total of 13 games (missing stats from the 1985-86 season, Kareem at age 38!) achieved the following vs a 24 and 27 year Old Hakeem!!!:

[U][COLOR="Orange"]Kareem (ages 39-41: Passed His Physical and Game Prime)[/COLOR] vs [COLOR="DarkRed"]Hakeem (ages 24-27: Total Physical Prime, Reaching his Game Prime):[/COLOR][/U]

[COLOR="Orange"]Kareem: 15.2 PPG (10.8 FGA PG) on [SIZE="4"]56.7 FG%![/SIZE] , 5.8 RPG, 1.4 BPG, 0.5 SPG, 2.2 TOV and 2.8 Personal Fouls[U][SIZE="4"]IN ONLY 28.4 MINUTE PER GAME[/SIZE][/U][/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Hakeem: 21.8 PPG (18.3 FGA PG) on [U][SIZE="3"]47.5 FG% (LOWERED HIS FG%)[/SIZE][/U] , 11.9 RPG, 2.5 SPG, 2.6 BPG, 2.6 TOV and 4.0 Personal Fouls in 37.8 MPG[/COLOR][/B]

[B]Hakeem was Less Effective Offensively on an Aging (Way, Way.....Passed Both Physical and Game Prime) [SIZE="4"]39-41 Year Old Kareem[/SIZE]

Hakeem might have had Better Foot-Work, Cooler Fakes and Superior Floor Defender than Kareem but Kareem`s B-Ball IQ, Passing, Prime Rebounding, FG% And Overall Skill Set Was Superior. In his Prime Probably his Shot Blocking Capacity. Also lets remember a 70s Kareem and in his Lew AlCindor days...was way More Potent, Fater, Agil and had a Superior Leap than the one we can see in vid in the 80s.

Here We Go:[/B]

[IMG]http://api.ning.com/files/jGTsl9YIheGbzstQ5c2mlHnlOrghXqGPw5qz9-D1Neo_/lewalcindor1967.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://content.cdlib.org/dynaxml/data/13030/bc/hb8w1009bc/files/hb8w1009bc-FID5.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Jjqv_F4iq48/R9wVkhyO0wI/AAAAAAAACug/k8Pf27PICLg/s200/Lew+Alcindor.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.achievement.org/achievers/woo0/large/woo0-062.jpg[/IMG]

[B]And Wilt was more than fine playing against a Total Physically Prime and Edging Game Prime Kareem :confusedshrug:

[U][COLOR="Orange"]Kareem ages: 22-25 (Total Physical Prime, Entering Game Prime)[/COLOR] vs [COLOR="Blue"]Wilt ages 33-36 (After his 1971 injury, Passed His Physical Prime and Passed his Game Prime)[/COLOR] [/U]

[U][COLOR="Orange"]Kareem ages: 22-25 (Total Physical Prime, Entering Game Prime)[/COLOR][/U]

[COLOR="Black"][U]Seasons 1969-70 to 1972-73:[/U][/COLOR]

[COLOR="Orange"]MPG: 42.6

31.4 PPG (shot 55.6% FG), 15.8 RPG, 4.2 APG and 3.1 Personal Fouls[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Black"][U]Play-Offs 1969-70 to 1972-73:[/U][/COLOR]

[COLOR="Orange"]MPG: 44.3

28.7 PPG (shot 49.1% FG), 17.1 RPG, 3.6 APG and 3.2 Personal Fouls[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"][U]Wilt ages: 33-36 (Passed Physical Prime, Passed his Game Prime)[/U][/COLOR]

[U][COLOR="Blue"]Seasons 1969-70 to 1972-73:[/COLOR][/U]

[COLOR="Red"]MPG:47.6 (Playing Longer at that Ages!)[/COLOR]

16.7 PPG ([COLOR="red"]shot 61.3% FG = Shot Way More Effective[/COLOR]) , [COLOR="red"]18.7 RPG (Superior Rebounder) [/COLOR], [COLOR="red"]4.2 APG (Same as Jabbar)[/COLOR] and [COLOR="red"]1.7 Personal Fouls (Lesser Fouls Commited and PLAYING LONGER!)[/COLOR]

[U][COLOR="blue"]Play-Offs 1969-70 to 1972-73:[/COLOR][/U]

[COLOR="red"]MPG: 46.9 (Playing Longer at those Ages!) [/COLOR]

16.4 PPG ([COLOR="red"]shot 52.8% FG = Still Shot More Effective!). [/COLOR]21.6 RPG ([COLOR="red"]Superior Rebounder[/COLOR]), [COLOR="red"]3.9 APG (Out Assited Kareem)[/COLOR] and [COLOR="red"]2.7 Personal Fouls (Lesser Fouls Commited and PLAYING LONGER!)[/COLOR][/B]

[B]Lets Remember Wilt wasn`t the Focal Scorer Anymore...He Came as a Role Player his Last Seasons...same way as Barkley did in the Rockets etc..[/B]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles]You're wrong and I'm right because I rehash [COLOR="Red"]players stats[/COLOR] in [COLOR="Cyan"]wild[/COLOR] [COLOR="DarkOrchid"]and [/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]crazy [/COLOR][COLOR="Blue"]colors[/COLOR]! and use [SIZE="4"]mammoth [/SIZE][SIZE="5"]crazy [/SIZE][SIZE="5"]font sizes [/SIZE]to hide the fact that I'm the [SIZE="7"][COLOR="DarkOrange"]biggest [/COLOR][COLOR="Yellow"]fanboy [/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]homer[/COLOR][/SIZE] on an internet forum that's nearly totally comprised of fanboy homers.

Look at this, I'll prove I'm right by posting a bunch of grainy pics promoting players that aren't alive or haven't played in 20-50 years.
[/quote]

Whatever SC... nobody takes you seriously and I'm not either. Yammering on about nothing I said and posting pics of players scoring on weak defenses means crap all to me or anyone else. Lots of my favorites retired as well... you don't have to hate on new players to keep the old ones alive. Their time has past. Get over it.

[QUOTE=32jazz]Damn!!!! Be careful Pippen.

The glare from the pasty "White unathletic' skin of this team nearly blinded me:oldlol: Maybe that's why they swept MJ & the Bulls in '86?:confusedshrug: The glare from their skin blinded Jordan?:rolleyes:

Thank you Pip. Now place the 66 team with John Thompson/Russell/ Sam & K.C Jones,etc...... side by side. Proof of the'unathletic White guys' of the 60's.:rolleyes:

According to Psileas Williams was released mid season so that team only had three Black Players(DJ/Parish/Vincent) & one(Sam Vincent) only played less than 10 minutes per game.[/QUOTE]

Why are you making it about skin colour? Its not that there were white or black people playing on a team, its that a group of super talented athletes were disadvantaged to the point where for part of that era they wern't even really allowed to play and didn't have the resources to train due to civil rights. Its that the competition in the league was weaker, not that one celtics team was more black. Thats just racist.

ie: as someone pointed out earlier in some way to try and say the era was stronger, go figure, that rucker park playground legend, The Goat, could grab a dollar bill off the top of the backboard but the NBA wouldn't let him play.

honestly how many people here were actually alive when Wilt was playing:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Let's be honest here, all you people trying to take away from past legends... if guys like Tim Duncan, Allen Iverson, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Kevin Durant (and every other skinny, white, unathletic, etc player who have DOMINATED this era/decade) had played anywhere from the 60s-90s, you'd be doing the same thing you're trying to do to Wilt, Russell, etc.

"Tim Duncan was so slow and couldn't jump, he'd be a backup at best in today's league"

"Yeah Iverson scored a lot in his era but he was only 5'11 165 lbs!!! he wouldn't even be a D-3 player today, he's too small to even play PG, how would he play SG against all the athletic freaks out there today?!"

"Dirk and Nash were slow, unathletic white players who dominated before the league was majority black. They'd get dominated in today's league"

See where I'm getting at? Show some ****ing respect.[/QUOTE]



I think at some points it tends to come around to being young and not having the ability, or perhaps the maturity to see the world from outside of your bubble.


Hmm...maybe more of a maturity issue...some younger fans here seem to understand quite a bit.

:rolleyes: [QUOTE=indiefan23]




Joking right? Hayes retired in 1981 long before the peak of the NBA which was absolutely 10 years later in the very late 80's and very early 90's. So did Enseld before the best rebounders in history were even drafted. Kareem was a great player but his career was winding down just as the best bigs of all time were young young players. After 81 Kareem was still in his prime and pulled down less then 8 boards for the rest of his career. A far cry from the 17 he pulled down in his hey day and weak era.[/QUOTE]

If you really believe Players before the early 90's are basically irrelevant/inferior there really is nothing else to discuss. Why waste your time on such inferior Players:confusedshrug:

I have no problem with your retardation ,but your lmited grasp of the facts are annoying.
First of all Elvin Hayes retired in 1984 (at an advaced age) & was still a great Player(NBA All star in the 60's ,70's & 80's)

Wes Unseld was a top three rebounder in the league in the 60's,70's & 80's right alongside the poor rebounding HOF'er Moses Malone:rolleyes:



Kareem only won one(1) Rebounding title his entire career (76) & was always a lesser rebounder(even at his prime) than Wilt & Wes Unseld who were far superior Rebounders. So what makes you think he would be any better at rebounding at an advanced age in the 80's:confusedshrug: (The man was in his late 30's by then for god sakes. Even at his peak Kareem was outrebounded for YEARS by an aging hobbled Wilt & 6'7 Unseld in the early 70's)

WE bring up race because certain idiots on the ISH never fail to mention that Wilt dominated 'unathletic White guys' of the 60's which is an offensive & utterly untrue myth. Why the F***k am I explaining aything to you:confusedshrug:

I can't read or respond to your nonsense/ignorance/idiocy. Just glad your nonsense is confined to this silly thread.

You've trolled & got your rise. Now get your napkin,clean your hands & wipe down the keyboards.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Let's be honest here, all you people trying to take away from past legends... if guys like Tim Duncan, Allen Iverson, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Kevin Durant (and every other skinny, white, unathletic, etc player who have DOMINATED this era/decade) had played anywhere from the 60s-90s, you'd be doing the same thing you're trying to do to Wilt, Russell, etc.

"Tim Duncan was so slow and couldn't jump, he'd be a backup at best in today's league"

"Yeah Iverson scored a lot in his era but he was only 5'11 165 lbs!!! he wouldn't even be a D-3 player today, he's too small to even play PG, how would he play SG against all the athletic freaks out there today?!"

"Dirk and Nash were slow, unathletic white players who dominated before the league was majority black. They'd get dominated in today's league"

See where I'm getting at? Show some ****ing respect.[/QUOTE]

Uh, I'm not young. Why do you assume ignorance? I'm not ignorance and you're not showing any respect to anybody, including your favorite old school players, for saying so. You're not entitled to respect just because you perceive some sort of age difference so show some yourself.

Now, you watch people play from those games. And I've watched lots of them.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvI_iTbgTwU"]If Bob Cousy was doing this:[/URL]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWvH2l1-_dQ"]

Jerry West had to check and be defended by other guards doing this:[/URL]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWvH2l1-_dQ[/url]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j01q8A6pqps"]
3 time all defensive team bigs (Bill Russell) was getting owned on like this:[/URL]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaucITrlBn8&feature=related"]if Wilt hit game winning shots like this on a regular basis[/URL]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12yYRx0XK4A"]
or any 7'1" center did this or anything like it in any fractional regard:
[/URL]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJxbaDVBtkI&feature=related"]If DPOY candidate 7 footers were getting owned by Sam Jones like this[/URL]

if there was anyone who could actually play like that then people wouldn't downplay anything at all. But no one did play like that because players from that era just were not that good. That kind of play didn't really exist until Dr. J and even then he wasn't as good as this and even IF he was, that kind of talent was totally scattered throughout the league. If we looked back to those games and saw players doing those things no one would say anything and people suggesting as much would get ripped for it. If any of the players you listed did go back their dominance would be so intense and extreme. Iverson could average triple doubles. Its unreal.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVtr2t7SvFE"]Instead, we look back at those games and they're not like we rememberd them. They're like this
[/URL]

Almost 0 contact. Its like everyone has a little pocket of space 2 feet around them and defenders politely stay out of it.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE#t40s"]And if you can find one clip even remotely coming close to this[/url]

I'll fly to wherever you live and eat your crusty underwear.

And explain please to me how Tim Duncan, Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, Kevin Durant are not athletic? That's retarded.

[QUOTE=32jazz]:rolleyes:

If you really believe Players before the early 90's are basically irrelevant/inferior there really is nothing else to discuss. Why waste your time on such inferior Players:confusedshrug: [/quote]

Early 90's? Naw, thats just the peak. Competition picked up big time in the late 70's and continued getting better. Pre 1980? I think the league is pretty frekin weak. By the 84 draft it was getting a lot stronger and after it in like, 86 - 93 (give or take) was a period of strength that has not been matched before or after.

[quote]I have no problem with your retardation ,but your lmited grasp of the facts are annoying.
First of all Elvin Hayes retired in 1984 (at an advaced age) & was still a great Player(NBA All star in the 60's ,70's & 80's)
Wes Unseld was a top three rebounder in the league in the 60's,70's & 80's right alongside the poor rebounding HOF'er Moses Malone:rolleyes:[/quote]

Elvin Hayes in 1982 got 7.6 boards. in 81 Unseld had 10 boards. Thats a far cry from the 18/game they used to get. And it was before Ralph Sampson, David Robinson, Olajuwon, Rodman, Barkley, Mutumbo, Ewing, Webber, Sabonis, Willis, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Oakley, Buck Williams, Malone and many others I forget off hand were drafted. Not to mention all the other bigs who could board but were role players. Those were just stars. Because you pulled down 10 or 7 boards in 1982 does not mean you played in the 80's on the same level as someone like Larry Bird who played in the 80's against most of those guys. Is that retarded of me to say?

[quote]
Kareem only won one(1) Rebounding title his entire career (76) & was always a lesser rebounder(even at his prime) than Wilt & Wes Unseld who were far superior Rebounders. So what makes you think he would be any better at rebounding at an advanced age in the 80's:confusedshrug: (The man was in his late 30's by then for god sakes. Even at his peak Kareem was outrebounded for YEARS by an aging hobbled Wilt & 6'7 Unseld in the early 70's)[/quote]

Uh, cuz lots of people pulled down 15+ boards in the 70's. There were some decent players and then a bunch of scrubs who should not have even been in the league. Kareem never had elite boards in the 80's. His best season was 7.6 in 80-81 with the weakest pool of bigs in the entire decade. Kareem never got hurt and was still in his prime then too. As the talent got better every year and caught up with him he was getting like, 4 boards a game. So I'm not sure how that indicates anything.

[quote]WE bring up race because certain idiots on the ISH never fail to mention that Wilt dominated 'unathletic White guys' of the 60's which is an offensive & utterly untrue myth. Why the F***k am I explaining aything to you:confusedshrug:[/quote]

Well, black people do play this game better then the white ones on average. Thats not racist: its a fact. Black people were still trying to drink at the water fountain when Russell started playing. Black people were more into boxing for the generation of players we are talking about as well. I think its pretty valid to assume it took a while for things to change. I don't think its a skin colour argument but just a competition argument. I don't really think its a myth. In the 50's they had race limits on how many black people could play for god's sake... just cuz that rule gets erased does not mean its equal footing suddenly.

[quote]I can't read or respond to your nonsense/ignorance/idiocy. Just glad your nonsense is confined to this silly thread.

You've trolled & got your rise. Now get your napkin,clean your hands & wipe down the keyboards.[/QUOTE]

What have I trolled? I'm in this thread cuz people trolled mine with this 50's 60's 70's era garbage. I don't see the nonsense either. I think claiming that a league of guys who can't jump more then a foot or two, don't play defense, don't box out on free throws and don't box out centers when they just sit in the paint on defense are weak. The players didn't even all play full time and smoked during games. How can you possibly suggest I don't have any valid points?

[QUOTE=oh the horror]I think at some points it tends to come around to being young and not having the ability, or perhaps the maturity to see the world from outside of your bubble.

Hmm...maybe more of a maturity issue...some younger fans here seem to understand quite a bit.[/QUOTE]

Um, I'm not young and am being quite reasonable. Do you watch games from the 50's stars and think "Those guys have the same abilities as MJ, Magic, Bird, Lebron, Kobe and Shaq." Do you watch the bench players and thing "Those guys have the same abilities as Robert Horry, Jamario Moon, Kevin McHale, Dennis Rodman and Lattrell Spreewell." Do you?

I don't so if you do tell me what I'm missing. There is nothing more or less mature then that.

And for the record the "you have to have watched it" argument does not work. Unless you're one of the few 10's of thousands who were in boston for the finals and went to the games, I've watched the same games you did and in the exact same way. Unless you think that the NBA finals, conference finals et al are poor choices to exhibit the quality of the league. Enlighten me if I'm in the dark.

[QUOTE=Scott Pippen]Yes but the problem is even then some people on this site (more than you may think) would also consider even the 1980s to be a "weak era", if you believe it or not. Again, just like the 1960s, it is a matter of ignoring what they don't care to know.[/QUOTE]

I would agree to an extent. The early 80s were weak compared to the mid-late 80's early 90's. The Lakers/Celtics/Bulls/Knicks were just powerhouse teams. Most of the best players in the 70's were retired or retiring, or in their last couple productive years by the end of the 70's/early 80's. There was a very large improvement when the ABA merged in 76, maybe a slight dip at the very end of the decade and things started exponentially started improving every season. For a while it seemed like every draft was bound to have at least a few significant stars. Then by the mid to late 90's that same group of players started slowing down to reset the cycle. I hope the next era actually turns out to be better then the 90's. Huge ball fan.

[QUOTE]A soccer ball painted brown is still a soccer ball. From Wikipedia:

Development of equipment and technique

Basketball was originally played with a soccer ball. The first balls made specifically for basketball were brown, and it was only in the late 1950s that Tony Hinkle, searching for a ball that would be more visible to players and spectators alike, introduced the orange ball that is now in common use. Dribbling was not part of the original game except for the "bounce pass" to teammates. Passing the ball was the primary means of ball movement. Dribbling was eventually introduced but limited by the asymmetric shape of early balls. Dribbling only became a major part of the game around the 1950s, as manufacturing improved the ball shape.

Sorry, try again.[/QUOTE]

The only thing it's said is that basketball [B]in its very first stages [/B]was played with a soccer ball. Then it mentions the brown balls, [B]made specifically for basketball[/B], AND THEN, in the late '50s, about the orange ball used today. Basketball firstly played by West and Russell in the late 40's-early 50's as kids was NOT in its first stages and therefore NOT played with a soccer ball. If your whole argument is about the ball being brown and having laces, that's a far cry from being a soccer ball.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball_(ball[/url])

[QUOTE]In early December 1891, the chairman of the physical education department at the School for Christian Workers (now Springfield College) in Springfield, Massachusetts, instructed physical education teacher James Naismith, known to many as the inventor of basketball, to invent a new game to entertain the school's athletes in the winter season. Naismith assembled his class of 18 young men, appointed captains of two nine-player teams, [B]and set in motion the first ever basketball game, played with a soccer ball and two peach baskets tacked to either end of the gymnasium.[/B] The first purpose-built basketballs were made from panels of leather stitched together with a rubber bladder inside. A cloth lining was added to the leather for support and uniformity (identity). [B]A molded version of the early basketball was invented in 1942.[/B][/QUOTE]

What do we get here? That the [B]first basketball game ever[/B], in 1891, was played with a soccer ball and that 4 years after Jerry West was born, molded basketball balls already started existing.

[url]http://images.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.blackfives.com/blog_pics/early_basketball.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blackfivesblog.com/%3Ftag%3D1930s&usg=__zN5Fo3kW0gaUMKy2IG3y_Ws8ZYs=&h=296&w=300&sz=162&hl=el&start=13&um=1&tbnid=se9QyHV1EI2F3M:&tbnh=114&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbasketball%2Bball%2B1930%26hl%3Del%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1[/url]

Read what the ball writes on it. If it was a soccer ball, it wouldn't.

Read also the passage:

[QUOTE]Did you know that [B]early basketballs [/B]had laces? They had to be unlaced, pumped up, tested, and re-laced repeatedly until the air pressure of the rubber bladder inside was just right.

[B]These balls evolved to include external air pump holes, but the laces remained until the 1930s, when laceless designs were first introduced.[/B][/QUOTE]

Where are all the soccer ball references again? :confusedshrug: The only difference mentioned is the laces, which were removed in the late 30's/early 40's, depending on source. Nothing about size, weight and other properties that points to a soccer ball. It doesn't even mention the word "soccer" at all, because, even back then that soccer thing had become whole decades old.

Let's use Shaq as the dominant centre for the last decade (sorry giantgonzolez, and Tim Duncan is PF).

People say Wilt would suck today, well, let's see how each geneation's best centre compares to each other at different points in their career, rookie season and final season. I wont include blocks because stats haven't always been kept for them :

[B][U]1959/60 [/U]

Wilt Chamberlain (Rookie)[/B]
Age: 23
[B]PPG:[/B]37.6
[B]RPG:[/B]27.0
[B]AST:[/B]2.3

[B]Bill Russell[/B]
Age: 25
[B]PPG:[/B] 18.2
[B]RPG:[/B] 24.0
[B]AST:[/B] 3.7
_________________________________________________

[B][U]1968/69[/U][/B]

[B]Wilt Chamberlain[/B]
Age: 32
[B]PPG:[/B] 20.5
[B]RPG:[/B] 21.1
[B]AST:[/B] 4.5

[B]Bill Russell (Final Season)[/B]
Age: 34
[B]PPG:[/B] 9.9
[B]RPG:[/B] 19.3
[B]AST:[/B] 4.9
______________________________________________

[B][U]1969/70[/U][/B]

[B]Wilt Chamberlain[/B]*
Age: 33
[B]PPG:[/B] 27.3
[B]RPG:[/B] 18.4
[B]AST:[/B] 4.1

[B]Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (Rookie)[/B]
Age: 22
[B]PPG:[/B] 28.8
[B]RPG:[/B] 14.5
[B]AST:[/B] 4.1

*Chamberlain only played in 12 games due to injury
________________________________________________

[B][U]1970/71[/U][/B]*

[B]Wilt Chamberlain[/B]
Age: 34
[B]PPG:[/B] 20.7
[B]RPG:[/B] 18.2
[B]AST:[/B] 4.3

[B]Kareem Abdul-Jabbar[/B]
Age: 23
[B]PPG:[/B] 31.7
[B]RPG:[/B] 16.0
[B]AST:[/B] 3.3

*First full season head to head
___________________________________________

[B][U]1972/73[/U][/B]

[B]Wilt Chamberlain (Final Season)[/B]
Age: 36
[B]PPG:[/B] 13.2
[B]RPG:[/B] 18.6
[B]AST:[/B] 4.5

[B]Kareem Abdul-Jabbar[/B]
Age: 25
[B]PPG:[/B] 30.2
[B]RPG:[/B] 16.1
[B]AST:[/B] 5.0
_________________________________________

[B][U]1977/78[/U][/B]

[B]Kareem Abdul-Jabbar[/B]
Age: 30
[B]PPG:[/B] 25.8
[B]RPG:[/B] 12.9
[B]AST:[/B] 4.3

[B]Moses Malone (First NBA Season)[/B]
Age: 22
[B]PPG:[/B] 19.4
[B]RPG:[/B] 15.0
[B]AST:[/B] 0.5
_________________________________________

[B][U]1984/85[/U][/B]

[B]Kareem Abdul-Jabbar[/B]
Age: 37
[B]PPG:[/B] 22.0
[B]RPG:[/B] 7.9
[B]AST:[/B] 3.2

[B]Moses Malone[/B]
Age: 29
[B]PPG:[/B] 24.6
[B]RPG:[/B] 13.1
[B]AST:[/B] 1.6

[B]Hakeem Olajuwon (Rookie)[/B]
Age: 22
[B]PPG:[/B] 20.6
[B]RPG:[/B] 11.9
[B]AST:[/B] 1.4
_____________________________________________
[B][U]1988/89[/U][/B]

[B]Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (Final Season)[/B]
Age: 41
[B]PPG:[/B] 10.1
[B]RPG:[/B] 4.5
[B]AST:[/B]1.0

[B]Moses Malone[/B]
Age: 33
[B]PPG:[/B] 20.2
[B]RPG:[/B] 11.8
[B]AST:[/B] 1.4

[B]Hakeem Olajuwon[/B]
Age: 26
[B]PPG:[/B] 24.8
[B]RPG:[/B] 14.0
[B]AST:[/B] 2.9
_________________________________________

[B][U]1992/93[/U][/B]

[B]Moses Malone[/B]*
Age: 37
[B]PPG:[/B] 4.5
[B]RPG:[/B] 4.2
[B]AST:[/B] 0.6

[B]Hakeem Olajuwon[/B]
Age: 30
[B]PPG:[/B] 26.1
[B]RPG:[/B] 13.0
[B]AST:[/B] 3.0

[B]Shaquille O'Neal (Rookie)[/B]
Age: 20
[B]PPG:[/B] 23.4
[B]RPG:[/B] 13.9
[B]AST:[/B] 1.9

*Moses Malone played in only 11 games due to injury
_________________________________________________

[B][U]1994/95[/U][/B]

[B]Moses Malone (Final Season)[/B]*
Age: 39
[B]PPG:[/B] 2.9
[B]RPG:[/B] 2.7
[B]AST:[/B] 0.4

[B]Hakeem Olajuwon[/B]
Age: 32
[B]PPG:[/B] 27.8
[B]RPG:[/B] 11.9
[B]AST:[/B] 3.6

[B]Shaquille O'Neal[/B]
Age: 22
[B]PPG:[/B] 29.3
[B]RPG:[/B] 11.4
[B]AST:[/B] 2.7

*Moses Malone played in only 17 games due to injury
__________________________________________________

[B][U]2001/02[/U][/B]

[B]Hakeem Olajuwon (Final Season)[/B]
Age: 39
[B]PPG:[/B] 7.1
[B]RPG:[/B] 6.0
[B]AST:[/B] 1.1

[B]Shaquille O'Neal[/B]
Age: 29
[B]PPG:[/B] 27.2
[B]RPG:[/B] 10.7
[B]AST:[/B] 3.0
___________________________________________

So, Wilt played against Russell and Kareem. Kareem played Moses and Olajuwon. Olajuwon played Shaq. From these numbers, you could acertain that a great big man is a great big man in any era.

[QUOTE]Elvin Hayes in 1982 got 7.6 boards. in 81 Unseld had 10 boards. Thats a far cry from the 18/game they used to get. [/QUOTE]

Ahh, I see Mr "I blame you for calling 39.9 year old Kareem a 40 year old" still has issues with factual numbers. To set you straight, Hayes averaged [B]9.1[/B] rebounds in 1982, along with 16.1 points, and this happened at the age of 36. He was an all-star up to 1980 (age 34), while, you know, Magic and Bird were there. He averaged 12.9/7.6 at 37, when Bird and Magic had long become established superstars and Moses Malone was the MVP.
Unseld grabbed 10.7 rebounds in his last season, at 35, playing 32.3 minutes, for a rate which was about 87% of the rate of his single best year, not an impressive slip.

[QUOTE]And it was before Ralph Sampson, David Robinson, Olajuwon, Rodman, Barkley, Mutumbo, Ewing, Webber, Sabonis, Willis, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Oakley, Buck Williams, Malone and many others I forget off hand were drafted. Not to mention all the other bigs who could board but were role players. Those were just stars.[/QUOTE]

They already had enough bigs to face. It's funny how you pad the 80's-00's by mentioning players who had their primes in different periods and some of them almost never faced each other: What does Sabonis have to do with Laimbeer and Mahorn? What does Sampson have to do with players who had their prime in the 90's? Sampson was a human wreck, barely an NBA player, when Robinson was a rookie.

Let alone that many of these players were just tough and hard-working fighters (maybe marginal all-stars for once or twice at their best), not valid stars who were feared for their talent. Oakley, Buck Williams (who, btw, was very prolific even when Hayes was playing), Willis, Mahorn, these guys don't belong to the same category with Robinson, Ewing or Hakeem. Nobody ever said "oh my, how am I going to stop Oakley from torching me?".

[QUOTE]Uh, cuz lots of people pulled down 15+ boards in the 70's. There were some decent players and then a bunch of scrubs who should not have even been in the league. Kareem never had elite boards in the 80's. His best season was 7.6 in 80-81 with the weakest pool of bigs in the entire decade. Kareem never got hurt and was still in his prime then too. As the talent got better every year and caught up with him he was getting like, 4 boards a game. So I'm not sure how that indicates anything.[/QUOTE]

Right troll, try 10.3 in 1981 and 8.7 in 1982. Kareem never grabbed exactly 7.6 rebounds. LOL at talent catching up with him at 41-42. I guess he should feel embarassed averaging 10.1/4.5 in 22.9 minutes at an age when most former players have become 50+ lbs fatter due to excessive sitting and beer drinking and are only able to play basketball at a decent level in 10-minute pickup games against actors/rappers or in leagues like the Swiss one.