Felton vs. Norman (The Chamberlain\Russell Thread)

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Yet Russell's teams won 84 times and Wilt's 58 and Russell won seven of eight playoff series against Wilt despite them each having the better teammates in those series a total of four times.



A better score, undoubtedly, more skilled on offense for sure. A better offensive player, yes but not by as much as people like to assume. Russell was the superior passer as well. The have the same career average for assists and Russell's numbers go up in the playoffs while Wilt's go down. Russell also touched the ball about one third of the amount of times Wilt did, so he was a much more efficient passer form the post. Plus Russell was a tremendous outlet passer which doesn't show up in the stats.



I would tend to agree, but Russell did average more rebounds than Wilt in the playoffs and has the NBA Finals record with 40 in a game.



Agreed mainly as far as skill goes, but Russell was a much smarter defender and had a MUCH greater impact on the game defensively. Russell blocked shots to teammates, Wilt blocked them out of bounds. That makes Russell's blocks twice as valuable. Russell was a vastly superior help defender, Chamberlain TRIED not to foul out of games, Russell would murder you to win, that's really the difference between the two there.



In 1980 the NBA selected it's 35th Anniversary team and Russell was voted the Greatest Player. As I mentioned all the players and coaches of that era favor Russell to Wilt.



Auerbach also said he'd never have wanted Wilt on the Celtics. And in his autobiography he says they'll never be a greater winner in all of sports than Bill Russell. Winning is the goal of the game.



Just offering a different opinion and some information you may not have been aware of.[/QUOTE]
I've always had the opinion that Chamberlain was the best regular season player ever and MJ the best playoff player ever.

I accept that Russell is the greatest winner..The 11 rings speaks.
But my point is that he never been such a good player as Michael,Wilt or Kareem were.

If your points is only the rings then yes he maybe is the GOAT.But to me is not only about the rings.Is about the best player.

And I have a question to you.
Is in your opinion Russell the GOAT?I guess yes......

[QUOTE=MakeHistory78]I've always had the opinion that Chamberlain was the best regular season player ever and MJ the best playoff player ever.

I accept that Russell is the greatest winner..The 11 rings speaks.
But my point is that he never been such a good player as Michael,Wilt or Kareem were.[/QUOTE]

I disagree for several reasons. Russell had huge games all the time, especially in the finals where's had a closeout game triple double (quadruple-double if you count blocks) and a 30-40 game in game seven.

His total stats were not as great as Jabbars because that wasn't his style. There is statistical analysis on this site available that shows Russell's impact on defense is at least as great as Jordan's on offense.

[QUOTE=MakeHistory78]If your points is only the rings then yes he maybe is the GOAT.But to me is not only about the rings.Is about the best player.[/QUOTE]

I agree and on Wilt vs. Russell, when I consider all the factors, stats, titles, supporting cast, opinions of peers, etc etc. I come up with Russell everytime and it's not even close.

[QUOTE=MakeHistory78]And I have a question to you.
Is in your opinion Russell the GOAT?I guess yes......[/QUOTE]

I won't spoil the suspense of my list thread, but I can tell you he is in my top four.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]That's all you need, if you don't understand that do some homework.

But I'd say 5 MVP's and constantly being in the top four his entire career is pretty good.

Also second most rebounds ever and would easily have the most blocks if it was a stat

Highest APG in the postseason ever for a center

More top 10 assist finishes in the season than any other center

watch the videos do some homework and get back to me.

Going forward I'd really like to turn this discussion away from all players except Wilt and Russ for the the sake of the thread.[/QUOTE]

:bowdown:

Only a homer like Shaqattack could disagree

[QUOTE=unbreakable]:bowdown:

Only a homer like Shaqattack could disagree[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: at this butthurt moron.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T][QUOTE=MakeHistory78]So I heard people or players like Magic Johnson who said that Russell was the best winner of all time(11 rings).But I've never heard people said that Russell is the GOAT.[/QUOTE]

In 1980 the NBA selected it's 35th Anniversary team and Russell was voted the Greatest Player. As I mentioned all the players and coaches of that era favor Russell to Wilt.[/QUOTE]

I don't understand people who make statements such as MakeHistory78 did seeing as how that happened. And a decade earlier, Russell was named Basketball Player of the Decade:

[QUOTE]Bill Russell, who revolutionized modern pro basketball with his defensive wizardry and who was an inspiring winner in college, the Olympics and pro ranks, was named basketball

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]I don't understand people who make statements such as MakeHistory78 did seeing as how that happened. And a decade earlier, Russell was named Basketball Player of the Decade:



I can only attribute it to a lack of knowledge. (On a side note, what one "never heard" doesn't necessarily mean anything. It doesn't mean one is knowledgeable, it just means they were unaware of it, which is a different thing from "it didn't happen." Just means one needs to do more research.)[/QUOTE]

There is probably no one here who is more of a Wilt fan, than myself. And I applaud MakeHistory for suggesting that Wilt might have been the greatest. A few months ago, I would be completely agreeing with him, too.

But, guys like Regul8r, G.O.A.T, Abe Lincoln (who is probably as much a Wilt fan, as myself), and other's here (sorry if I left you out...I am typing this while falling asleep)...have made so many valid points.

The fact is, the INTELLIGENT posters will agree that Wilt was a GREAT player, and most of them would probably agree, that at his BEST, he may have been the best ever. But, the simple fact was, Russell rose to the occassion, and led his teammates to wins...and it was usually at Wilt's expense.

While I disagree with Bill Simmons', who seems to want to bash Wilt, as much as he wanted to heap praise on Russell...there is simply no defense against 11 rings in 13 tries, or being undefeated in game seven's, or taking a good team, and making them great, and then after leaving, they return to ashes...

it goes on-and-on. And, as Reg and G.O.A.T gave stated...Russell's peers recognized him as the greatest ever...and it wasn't even close. The ultimate goal, in a TEAM game, is simply, to WIN. Throw out all the stats, or records, or flashy high-lights,...because, in the end, Russell was the game's greatest winner. And by extension, the game's greatest player.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]I don't understand people who make statements such as MakeHistory78 did seeing as how that happened. And a decade earlier, Russell was named Basketball Player of the Decade:



I can only attribute it to a lack of knowledge. (On a side note, what one "never heard" doesn't necessarily mean anything. It doesn't mean one is knowledgeable, it just means they were unaware of it, which is a different thing from "it didn't happen." Just means one needs to do more research.)[/QUOTE]

Why you don't understand my friend?I heard a lot of people said that Wilt was the best.

Dan Issel said
"He might have been the greatest to ever play. He didn't win the championships that Bill Russell did, but he didn't have the supporting cast that Bill Russell did. The stats that he put up might never be erased."

And listen to Bill Russell his big rival that's important!
"He’s probably the best player to play the game. I mean,not even close. He was physically bigger, stronger, faster than everybody who’s ever played."

Warren Jabali said that
"Because Russell won all the championships he is supposed to be the greatest player. Well, he's not the greatest player. Chamberlain was the greatest player. You take that team away from Russell and let Russell play with some mediocre players, what is Russell going to do? If you put Chamberlain and Russell with the same mediocre players, Chamberlain's team would win more games."

KC Jones,Bill Russell's teammate
"Wilt was the strongest guy and best athlete ever to play the game."

Connie Hawkins also
"In my humble opinion,(Wilt) the greatest basketball player that ever lived."

I'm a big fan of MJ and I don't like that Spencer Haywood said.
"Michael was not the best player ever. I know you all think he was, but…Anyway Wilt was far greater."

Also 2003 Slam Magazine top 75 NBA players in the History and Wilt was the 2nd greatest only behind Michael.


So let me say this.
Russell IMO is one of the 6-8 greatest players ever.But IMO Michael Jordan was the greatest ever play the game.In the GOAT descussion i put there 3 players.MJ,Wilt,KAJ.
I don't take anything from Russell he is great and probably the greatest defender ever.
But Wilt was a beast and MJ also.
That's an opinion.I respect if you have a different opinion..

[QUOTE=MakeHistory78]Why you don't understand my friend?I heard a lot of people said that Wilt was the best.

Dan Issel said
"He might have been the greatest to ever play. He didn't win the championships that Bill Russell did, but he didn't have the supporting cast that Bill Russell did. The stats that he put up might never be erased."

And listen to Bill Russell his big rival that's important!
"He

[QUOTE=jlauber]MakeHistory,

Your opinions, especially as well documented as they are, are every bit as good as anyone's here.

IMHO, the problem with Wilt was that I think, at his PEAK, and playing his best TEAM basketball, he was probably the best ever. BUT, there is just so many frustrating losses, some on teams that were every bit as good as Russell's. Individually, IMHO, NO ONE was a great. As Oscar said..."The Record Book does not lie."

And, there is no question in my mind that many of Wilt's "failures" were due to mediocre personnel, injuries, bad luck, bad coaching, bad officiating, or a combination of all five. Still, despite so MANY brilliant post-season performances...some in critical games...it just seems that there were too many games in which he did not sieze the moment, as MJ or Russell did, and take over. Robert Cherry made the comment that it was not Wilt's fault for that game seven debacle against Boston in 1969. BUT, had Wilt put up a normal game in game six, the Lakers would have won the title that year. And there were some questionable circumstances surrounding Wilt's game seven in the '68 ECF's...BUT, had Wilt decided to take over the game offensively (even demanding the ball), especially when the Sixers were missing some of their offensive firepower...that he could have made a case for an even greater career.

As for Russell...too often we get caught up in individual stats. I have said it before, but those that diminish Russell's offensive skills (which, IMHO, were better than believed)...are not factoring in Russell's offensive CONTRIBUTIONS. He would tell you that HIS offense came in the form of his TEAM's offense. His teammates would certainly concur. He made the right pass to the right player, in the right circumstance. He was a fierce offensive rebounder, which led to more offensive baskets. And his defensive rebounding and outlet passes led to easy offensive baskets. And none of that even comes close to his defensive impact...which as Regul8r has pointed out, has been compared to Jordan's offensive impact.

One-on-one, I am convinced Wilt would have killed Russell. But in terms of making his TEAMs better...very few would argue that against Russell. Ultimately, it was the difference in an 11-2 advantage in rings.[/QUOTE]

I respect you..You have good points.

Except of Wilt dominance I like more Wilt's offensive skills because he could score with fade away shots,with finger rolls and monster dunks..I've seen Russell also in some games and liked me some hook shots he made.

My point is that Russell is the greatest winner ever(11 rings) but he isn't the greatest player ever because he wasn't so good as Michael or as Wilt,KAJ were..
For the same reason Sam Jones(10 rings) never was as good as Baylor or Jerry West were.He is a greater winner but he wasn't better player..

I know that some people thought that Bill Russell is the greatest.I don't have problem with this.He is a great player don't get me wrong..

But to me is not only the Rings.Is a combination of rings and to be the best player..
Russell has the (rings) but IMO he wasn't the best.Wilt was the best but he hasn't many rings..But i still believe is greater than Russell.

This is one of the reasons I believe MJ is the GOAT.He had it all..

But I respect all these legends..Especially Wilt and Russell..They did a lot for the game of basketball!

[QUOTE=MakeHistory78]Why you don't understand my friend?[/QUOTE]

That you can say that you've heard Russell described as the greatest winner but never heard people say Russell is the GOAT, when he was named the GOAT in 1980. That's a fact. Perhaps you weren't aware of this.

[QUOTE=MakeHistory78]I heard a lot of people said that Wilt was the best.[/QUOTE]

Wilt is one of the players with a case. Which still has no bearing on your implication that no one ever said Russell was GOAT when as I said, he was OFFICIALLY named the GOAT in 1980. Your knowledge of something has no bearing on whether it happened or not.

[QUOTE=MakeHistory78]KC Jones,Bill Russell's teammate
"Wilt was the strongest guy and best athlete ever to play the game."[/QUOTE]

Strongest guy and best athlete. Can't really disagree. Doesn't fit with the rest of your quotes, though.

[QUOTE=MakeHistory78]I'm a big fan of MJ and I don't like that Spencer Haywood said.
"Michael was not the best player ever. I know you all think he was, but

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]That you can say that you've heard Russell described as the greatest winner but never heard people say Russell is the GOAT, when he was named the GOAT in 1980. That's a fact. Perhaps you weren't aware of this.



Wilt is one of the players with a case. Which still has no bearing on your implication that no one ever said Russell was GOAT when as I said, he was OFFICIALLY named the GOAT in 1980. Your knowledge of something has no bearing on whether it happened or not.



Strongest guy and best athlete. Can't really disagree. Doesn't fit with the rest of your quotes, though.



What does [B]Michael Jordan[/B] have to do with an [B]Chamberlain/Russell[/B] thread?

:confusedshrug:

Is it possible for people to refrain from bringing up his name in a thread that has nothing to do with him?



[I]SLAM Magazine[/I]. Who also have Kareem ranked #7. :rolleyes:

People there at the time ranked Russell higher, which is also reflected in the fact that Russell was named Basketball Player of the Decade for the 1960s "by a landslide" in 1970, and was named the Greatest Player of All Time in 1980. That's a fact. It's only later, when a new generation of people who never saw either came along, that general opinion changed, when people just looked at the stats and then denigrate Russell, saying he was nothing more than a "Dikembe Mutombo" or "Ben Wallace."



As I previously said, Jordan has nothing to do with this discussion. It shows insecurity to keep bringing him up in a thread talking about other greats as if afraid it might change some people's opinions on him.



When was it ever said this wasn't the case?



The obligatory MJ inclusion. :rolleyes: See previous comments.



I've never understood why people feel the need to say "that's my opinion" as if that isn't evident, or perhaps people might not know what an opinion is.[/QUOTE]

Regul8r,

Just curious...can I see your Top-10? (I know...slightly off-topic but here again...I have the utmost respect for your opinions)

MakeHistory78,

I understand opinions are what they are, but if you don't see the argument for Russell over Wilt as a BASKETBALL player, then you don't understand the game or Russell and Wilt's rivalry.

I can see having MJ or KAJ ahead of both of them, not the discussion here, but thinking Russell is not in the same class as MJ, Wilt and KAJ means you don't get it. (In my opinion)

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]That you can say that you've heard Russell described as the greatest winner but never heard people say Russell is the GOAT, when he was named the GOAT in 1980. That's a fact. Perhaps you weren't aware of this.



Wilt is one of the players with a case. Which still has no bearing on your implication that no one ever said Russell was GOAT when as I said, he was OFFICIALLY named the GOAT in 1980. Your knowledge of something has no bearing on whether it happened or not.



Strongest guy and best athlete. Can't really disagree. Doesn't fit with the rest of your quotes, though.



What does [B]Michael Jordan[/B] have to do with an [B]Chamberlain/Russell[/B] thread?

:confusedshrug:

Is it possible for people to refrain from bringing up his name in a thread that has nothing to do with him?



[I]SLAM Magazine[/I]. Who also have Kareem ranked #7. :rolleyes:

People there at the time ranked Russell higher, which is also reflected in the fact that Russell was named Basketball Player of the Decade for the 1960s "by a landslide" in 1970, and was named the Greatest Player of All Time in 1980. That's a fact. It's only later, when a new generation of people who never saw either came along, that general opinion changed, when people just looked at the stats and then denigrate Russell, saying he was nothing more than a "Dikembe Mutombo" or "Ben Wallace."



As I previously said, Jordan has nothing to do with this discussion. It shows insecurity to keep bringing him up in a thread talking about other greats as if afraid it might change some people's opinions on him.



When was it ever said this wasn't the case?



The obligatory MJ inclusion. :rolleyes: See previous comments.



I've never understood why people feel the need to say "that's my opinion" as if that isn't evident, or perhaps people might not know what an opinion is.[/QUOTE]
Russell was officialy GOAT 1980..Ok but even his former coach Legendary Red Auerbach changed his mind and considered Bird as the GOAT.

I didn't dispute that Russell back to 1980 condidered as the GOAT...I said i've never heard old players and basketball people who said that Russell is the GOAT.

Of caurse I don't agree with SLAM's KAJ ranked #7 but that was a list by a very important Magazine.Also I don't agree with Big O ranked #3 but is another story..
However was a list.

Any one who saying he(Russell) was nothing more than a "Dikembe Mutombo" or "Ben Wallace." is a sciolist..
Ι watched Russell in old games and of caurse was special..

At the end I don't understand why you are so abrupt..We talk about basketball,right?

Please don't advise me if I feel this:
"I've never understood why people feel the need to say "that's my opinion" as if that isn't evident, or perhaps people might not know what an opinion is."

Ιf you don't like this I don't care...But don't advise me!

Stay in basketball talks with me.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]MakeHistory78,

I understand opinions are what they are, but if you don't see the argument for Russell over Wilt as a BASKETBALL player, then you don't understand the game or Russell and Wilt's rivalry.

I can see having MJ or KAJ ahead of both of them, not the discussion here, but thinking Russell is not in the same class as MJ, Wilt and KAJ means you don't get it. (In my opinion)[/QUOTE]


Russell like so many other Greats did things that dont show up in the box scores . Only those that take the time to learn about how great the 60's Celtics were can understand how Great Russell was. There may have been more skilled players than Russell ie: Wilt KAJ but no player in the history of the game had the leadership and IQ of winning like Russ.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]MakeHistory78,

I understand opinions are what they are, but if you don't see the argument for Russell over Wilt as a BASKETBALL player, then you don't understand the game or Russell and Wilt's rivalry.

I can see having MJ or KAJ ahead of both of them, not the discussion here, but thinking Russell is not in the same class as MJ, Wilt and KAJ means you don't get it. (In my opinion)[/QUOTE]

I haven't problem with that.
As I said before as a Basketball player to me wasn't in the same class with MJ,Wilt and KAJ..These 3 to me are the 3 greatest...

Russell to me is a 6-8 ever..I don't feel that I dispute him because I don't put him in Top-3...So simple

I watched him play in old games..I don't speak about stats