Pau Gasol vs. Dirk Nowitzki

[QUOTE=D-Rose]Defensive Rating (pts allowed in 100 posessions)
[/QUOTE]

That is one of the most flawed stats. It is greatly influenced by how good your team's defense is. Look at the top 20 in defensive rating:

Defensive Rating
1. Gerald Wallace-CHA 96.0
2. Rasheed Wallace-BOS 96.1
3. Lamar Odom-LAL 96.5
4. Pau Gasol-LAL 96.8
5. Greg Oden-POR 97.1
6. Kendrick Perkins-BOS 97.1
7. Dwight Howard-ORL 97.4
8. Kevin Garnett-BOS 97.4
9. Josh Smith-ATL 97.8
10. Rajon Rondo-BOS 97.9
11. Marcus Camby-LAC 98.1
12. Kobe Bryant-LAL 98.6
13. Andrew Bynum-LAL 98.7
14. Erick Dampier-DAL 99.0
15. Joel Przybilla-POR 99.1
16. Tyson Chandler-CHA 99.7
17. Andrew Bogut-MIL 99.7
18. Anderson Varejao-CLE 100.1
19. Tim Duncan-SAS 100.6
20. Derek Fisher-LAL 100.7

Does Boston really have four of the ten best defenders? LA four of the top 12 and five of the top 20? Note that Charlotte has two as does Portland.

Team's defensive rankings

Boston: 2nd
Charlotte: 3rd
Portland: 8th (probably higher when Oden played)
Cleveland: 4th
Lakers: 1st
Atlanta: 10th
Spurs: 11th
Clippers: 13th
Milwaukee: 6th

So other than former DPOY's Camby and Duncan everyone else on the list plays for a top 10 defense. According to defensive rating 45% of the NBA's top 20 defenders happen to play on just two teams.

Want more proof? Gasol himself. His defensive rating was 111 in 2007-08 when he was in Memphis but 105 when he was in LA. Memphis was 28th in defense, LA 5th. Unfortunately there is no reliable stat to gauge defense. Defensive win shares and defensive rating are very flawed.

Gasol is a good defender, though, imo and better than Dirk. However, Dirk is much better than Gasol offensively. There is reason why he has all those all-NBA selections and Gasol barely squeaked onto the third team once (when elite PF's Amare, Boozer and KG--all who were all-NBA the year before--were hurt).

Pau in the span of 2 years has become the most overrated player on this board. By far. You'd think he was Hakeem mixed with David Robinson reading some of these comments.

How has Pau gotten better in the last two years that he can be mentioned in the elite power forwards of the league? What has he added to his game? For me, it's a question of who. And that who, is Kobe. Lets not forget that Pau was 0-12 in the playoffs without Kobe.

Dirk might have had an embarrassing first round outing in 2007, but its not that bad compared to the fact that Pau could not lead his team to 1 victory in the post season. Yet, now somehow people would take him over Duncan, Dirk, and KG...for what reason.. I don't know.

[QUOTE=Hyman]Which was the level of spanish basketball before the arrival of Gasol? What would be the level of the spanish NT without Gasol?

With Gasol being a leader and a bunch of scrubs, Memphis made 3 consecutive playoff appearances. Thats a huge succes for a team like them

Moreover Gasol is not today the player he was back in 06. He has evolved a lot, specially in toughness and defense. I dont think that Nowitzki today is a very different player to the one of 06[/QUOTE]


Wow. You sure as hell don't know much about Euro ball to make an asinine comparison like that. Do you know just how weak basketball is in Germany? Frigging handball is more popular. It was a major accomplishment for Dirk to just lead them to an Olympics berth.

[QUOTE=kentatm]Wow. You sure as hell don't know much about Euro ball to make an asinine comparison like that. Do you know just how weak basketball is in Germany? Frigging handball is more popular. It was a major accomplishment for Dirk to just lead them to an Olympics berth.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. Basketball is very low on the list in Germany.

The fact that it is even debatable here is telling of how moronic some people on this board are. Dirk is head and shoulders above Gasol.

The arguments I hear here are that Gasol is a better fundamental power forward than Dirk, which although true, is a moot point. Carlos Boozer and Chris Bosh are also more prototypical at the PF position than Dirk, but they are no where close to him as a player.

Gasol has played great on a team with Kobe Bryant, a terrific coach, and a terrific team. I don't know how you can even conjure up the nerve to say Gasol is near Dirk when you look at how they performed as #1 options. Dirk is a 25 and 11 producer in the playoffs, with 2 WCF Finals appearances, an NBA Finals appearance, and has been on 3 60 win teams. Remember, this is an the #1 option and on two of those teams he had Josh Howard as the second best player. I think most would agree that Howard isn't even a top 20 player in this league.

Compare that to Gasol, who as stated was 0-12 in the playoffs and was traded for garbage as "his" Memphis Grizzlies went down the tubes under his leadership. The comparison alone is mindboggling here. There is one factor that makes this an argument on this board:

1) Gasol is a Laker


It's a fact. And if Chris Bosh was a Laker he'd probably put up some great numbers as well, you switch him with Gasol and I guarantee you that team still has more than a good chance at the championship. Instead, Gasol is being raised to the pantheon of great power forwards in this league and Bosh is swept on the rug on a bad team.

This is a joke of a thread and a joke of a comparison. Dirk is the most dynamic scoring power forward this league has ever seen. Gasol is a very good player who is on a great team, playing with a top 5 player in the league. Time to stop kidding ourselves. Dirk by a mile.

^^ Well aren't you Mr know it all...

Comparing 2 absolutely diferent type of players just becosue they are same tall is never fair. a Duncan Gasol wodl have been more fair as both play PF/C type of game.

as in terms of career I would give the edge to Dirk clearly.

But people tend to look at the career while I looking at current season (his peak) and last one.

People will never forget his 0/12 playoffs while forget the big suceed that was to reach beign there with the team he had in a stacked West.

He has been improved everysingle year till today.

his defense has been amazingly improving (amazingly) since last season. why I can't see more people talking about his defense on superman on the finals is something I can't understand as it was nothing but legendary. he totally shut him down all by himself. and right now he is a good to very good defender.

Better than Dirk? I don't think so, but different kind of player he is.

Better than KG [B]THIS[/B] year he is for sure.

But if some people do talk about how good gasol is (which he is), I don't see the need for other dirks, tims, kevins, etc fans to hurry up to say he is not, it does not mean your boys are any worse.

Answer to the main question: Dirk. all of you guys have pointed out the reasons already. In any case, this question will be worth a revisit after the careers of both of them come to an end. that will be interesting. Right now: Dirk. All his NBA achievements are not to be overlooked.


However, I express my total shock at some stupid argument (no way to call it otherwise) about the 0-12 of Gasol in the playoffs... as somebody said, leading that team to a playoff is such achievement that speaks out for itself. I mean, where was the Great Kobe in the years in between teaming up with Shaq and now Gasol?? hybernating or something? no, he failed massively year after year cos he was surrounded by scrubs, as much as Gasol was and thats why he asked for a move before the Gasol trade. This means that miracles dont exist. If a superstar like Kobe cannot make a winner team on his own, you cannot ask Gasol to do that precisely, being him an inferior player.

Really this isnt a comp dirk takes this easily

[QUOTE]However, I express my total shock at some stupid argument (no way to call it otherwise) about the 0-12 of Gasol in the playoffs... as somebody said, leading that team to a playoff is such achievement that speaks out for itself. I mean, where was the Great Kobe in the years in between teaming up with Shaq and now Gasol?? hybernating or something? no, he failed massively year after year cos he was surrounded by scrubs, as much as Gasol was and thats why he asked for a move before the Gasol trade.[/QUOTE]

Weak argument. The analogy depends on Kobe (or any number of other legends, including Jordan, that you could use) having a similarly bad team as Gasol. Gasol was on teams that won 50 games without an all-star. Kobe was on teams that had the best or second best player in the league and won 45 games. If Gasol is as good as alleged he should have been worth a few playoff wins. Scrubs? His contemporaries Garnett and Bosh led similarly mediocre teams to playoff wins. The best or second best PF in the game is not worth a single playoff win? Gasol was outplayed by Duncan, Marion (Amare also had a better series than Gasol), and Dirk during each series. If he played better his team would have won a game or two.

[QUOTE=KG5MVP]this post is as pointless as a MJ vs. corey brewer comparison[/QUOTE]

No I would have to say its more of an MJ to Barkley comparison.

is it possible that dirk is the better first option but gasol is the better second option?.... hmmmm.

[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]is it possible that dirk is the better first option but gasol is the better second option?.... hmmmm.[/QUOTE]
Unfair statement because no one knows how effective of a second option Dirk could be...

[QUOTE=Dave3]Unfair statement because no one knows how effective of a second option Dirk could be...[/QUOTE]

i was asking a question. i hardly qualify that as a statement.

[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]is it possible that dirk is the better first option but gasol is the better second option?.... hmmmm.[/QUOTE]

What logic is this based on? I have heard several posters say this and I don't understand it. Would you rather have Gasol as your #2 option than Lebron because Gasol has done well as the #2 option and Lebron is an unknown in that role?

This "option" stuff is vastly overrated on ISH. When Jordan retired Pippen took one more shot a game. In other words, on the court his role was basically the same as it was with Jordan. Pippen himself has said this. Did that extra shot make him a better player?