Question for non-religious types...(most of us I think)

[QUOTE=hookul]huh? There have been millions of people in history who died based on false belief, scam, pride, etc. People do not need a lot of extra motivation to kill or die for a myth, a cam, etc, whatever you might call it. Are you so out of touch with history and the human mind that you cannot understand how hearsay, second-hand story and wishful thinking could turn a potential simple but wise men into a messiah in the eyes of people hoping for just such a messiah to free them from their suppressors? All people need in these situation is the idea of hope for them to die for this hope - it rarely matters if this is in the end true hope in person or belief.[/QUOTE]
Lacking reading comprehension huh? He said those Apostles were in on the scam. They knew Jesus was a fake and still died for him?:facepalm

[QUOTE=shlver]Lacking reading comprehension huh? He said those Apostles were in on the scam. They knew Jesus was a fake and still died for him?:facepalm[/QUOTE]

Huh? what does this change? The above can be applied to the motivation apostles as well. Maybe they loved the attention they were getting, maybe they hoped for a better life by living this lie, maybe they feared they have more to loose then their lives if they reveal they were in on a scam that fooled hundreds of people? It is not farfetched for these times that loosing "ones face" is worse to a man than death itself.

I am not saying that I believe this is how it went down but i thnk it is ludicrous when giving the options between

a) a few guys hoping for a better life are in for a scam ... and
b) a few guys witnessed god in person

that people assume b) is more likely...use some logic and deductive sense for cryin gout loud. Option a) already happened thousands of times in history and probably happnes as we speak hundreds of times right now while b) - by its very definition only happened once in history!

Yeah, right but b) is the simplier and more logical explanation.

[QUOTE=hookul]Huh? what does this change? The above can be applied to the motivation apostles as well. Maybe they loved the attention they were getting, maybe they hoped for a better life by living this lie, maybe they feared they have more to loose then their lives if they reveal they were in on a scam that fooled hundreds of people? It is not farfetched for these times that loosing "ones face" is worse to a man than death itself.

I am not saying that I believe this is how it went down but i thnk it is ludicrous when giving the options between

a) a few guys hoping for a better life are in for a scam ... and
b) a few guys witnessed god in person

that people assume b) is more likely...use some logic and deductive sense for cryin gout loud. Option a) already happened thousands of times in history and probably happnes as we speak hundreds of times right now while b) - by its very definition only happened once in history!

Yeah, right but b) is the simplier and more logical explanation.[/QUOTE]
Bunch of hypothetical garbage.:blah :blah :blah

[QUOTE=shlver]Bunch of hypothetical garbage.:blah :blah :blah[/QUOTE]

Again, you are either dumb or playing dumb. How is the above scenario more hypothetical garbage than the option that they indeed witnessed all these wonders and god in person?

Option a) to the best of all our knowledge of science, laws of nature, history and the nature of man already happened many times on ears, while option b) defies laws of nature and by its own definition only happened once since time existed. In what universe is b) for you therefore less hypothetical than a) ?

There is a very simple expression that you do not seem to get your mind around :"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof!". The claim of wonders and god himself revealing himself over a prolonged period of time to a selected group of peoples is pretty much the MOST EXTRAORDINARY claim one can make thus most extraordinary proof are needed to make this claim less hypothetical than claims that at least do not speak against the laws of nature and common knowledge.

[QUOTE=hookul]Again, you are either dumb or playing dumb. How is the above scenario more hypothetical garbage than the option that they indeed witnessed all these wonders and god in person?

Option a) to the best of all our knowledge of science, laws of nature, history and the nature of man already happened many times on ears, while option b) defies laws of nature and by its own definition only happened once since time existed. In what universe is b) for you therefore less hypothetical than a) ?

There is a very simple expression that you do not seem to get your mind around :"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof!". The claim of wonders and god himself revealing himself over a prolonged period of time to a selected group of peoples is pretty much the MOST EXTRAORDINARY claim one can make thus most extraordinary proof are needed to make this claim less hypothetical than claims that at least do not speak against the laws of nature and common knowledge.[/QUOTE]
I didn't hypothesize anything you dolt. The apostles themselves said they believed that Jesus was the Messiah. He said that Jesus and the Apostles were in on an elaborate scheme. So, I asked for the motivation to continue something the Apostles knew was fake that would bring hardship, suffering, and maybe even death. You're pretty ****ing stupid.

[QUOTE=shlver]I didn't hypothesize anything you dolt. The apostles themselves said they believed that Jesus was the Messiah. He said that Jesus and the Apostles were in on an elaborate scheme. So, I asked for the motivation to continue something the Apostles knew was fake that would bring hardship, suffering, and maybe even death. You're pretty ****ing stupid.[/QUOTE]

Dear lord you are dumb. For one, I mentioned different kinds of motivation for them to act this way in the first place and continue to act this way even when facing suffering. Second, of course the apostles themselves would say they believed in it as this is the a priory requirement for them to be in a potential scam. How the hell would anybody pull of an elaborate scam and then go around the next second and say :"haha, but in all honesty I do not really believe this, I am just saying this to profit from a scam? How the hell would that work in real life? Basically if you could graps your mind of the idea that they might have lied, you are taking the words of the liars as justification for their true believes - do you not see a paradox in this situation?

And again, I am not saying that this scenario happened. All I am saying that giving the options, this scenario is still more likely than god walking on earth.

Shit, for all we know - and we do know nothing about them really - the apostles could have been a group of Charlie Zelenoffs truely believing in their own scam just like Charlie is disillusional about reality. Such a scenario (a bunch of Charlie Zs following a charasmatic leader) is still more likely to happen once in history than rising dead back from live. But I guess you cannot even admit this.

[QUOTE=hookul]Dear lord you are dumb. For one, I mentioned different kinds of motivation for them to act this way in the first place and continue to act this way even when facing suffering. Second, of course the apostles themselves would say they believed in it as this is the a priory requirement for them to be in a potential scam. How the hell would anybody pull of an elaborate scam and then go around the next second and say :"haha, but in all honesty I do not really believe this, I am just saying this to profit from a scam? How the hell would that work in real life? Basically if you could graps your mind of the idea that they might have lied, you are taking the words of the liars as justification for their true believes - do you not see a paradox in this situation?[/QUOTE]
That's all hypothetical bullshit you're spewing. First of all, what would they have to gain? Logically, no person will suffer or die for something they know is fake and we're talking about the motivations of scam artists.
[QUOTE]And again, I am not saying that this scenario happened. All I am saying that giving the options, this scenario is still more likely than god walking on earth.
[/QUOTE]
We're not arguing that you dolt. We're arguing whether or not the Apostles [B]BELIEVED[/B] Jesus was the Messiah. The idea that they truly believed Jesus to be the Messiah logically follows the acts of them dying and suffering claiming belief in Jesus as the Messiah.
[QUOTE]Shit, for all we know - and we do know nothing about them really - the apostles could have been a group of Charlie Zelenoffs truely believing in their own scam just like Charlie is disillusional about reality. Such a scenario (a bunch of Charlie Zs following a charasmatic leader) is still more likely to happen once in history than rising dead back from live. But I guess you cannot even admit this.
[/QUOTE]
You're still missing the point of the argument.

[QUOTE=shlver]:oldlol: He said the historical Jesus is not real when Jewish, Greco-Roman, and other historians mention him in their writings.

Yes there are interpolations, but that does not mean Josephus did not write about Jesus. He even said in that video "most scholars consider this passage to be genuine when interpolations are removed."
The Bible is an excellent source but you choose to discard it when it's one of the most preserved pieces of writing compared to some works of antiquity. We're not discussing whether Jesus performed those miracles, we've already seen references corroborating Jesus being an influential person to the Christians by two outside sources, Josephus and Tacitus. I'm debating the point that Jesus was a real person.
Sources written decades after someone's death is not reliable? Alexander the Great's two earliest biographies were written by Arrian and Plutarch more than 400 years after his death, but historians consider those works to be trustworthy.

huh? Christians were ostracized and martyred for their beliefs. They would have been better off to downplay and denounce their "Jesus Christ the Messiah" scam. They had nothing to gain. Give me a motive for them to die by continuing this "scam."[/QUOTE]
ok, the fact that you even use the term greco-roman as a legit cultural association for this time period shows how out of touch you are with the actual historical records.

You have yet to actually produce a single historical source from the time of jesus that mentions him. Sure, historians 40 years later mention him, but thats not direct historical evidence. I suggest you search your library and find a single source from the life of jesus that mentions him. Otherwise, you are simply arguing from your beliefs.

[QUOTE=boozehound]ok, the fact that you even use the term greco-roman as a legit cultural association for this time period shows how out of touch you are with the actual historical records. [/QUOTE]
What are you talking about?:facepalm

[QUOTE]You have yet to actually produce a single historical source from the time of jesus that mentions him. Sure, historians 40 years later mention him, but thats not direct historical evidence. I suggest you search your library and find a single source from the life of jesus that mentions him. Otherwise, you are simply arguing from your beliefs.[/QUOTE]
Well, people with adamant stances are hard to please, when the overwhelming majority of historical scholars agree Jesus was an actual living person.

What it all comes down to...

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu3VTngm1F0&feature=av2e[/url]

:wtf: and :facepalm @ 90% of the posts here...

[QUOTE=shlver]That's all hypothetical bullshit you're spewing. First of all, what would they have to gain? Logically, no person will suffer or die for something they know is fake and we're talking about the motivations of scam artists.

We're not arguing that you dolt. We're arguing whether or not the Apostles [B]BELIEVED[/B] Jesus was the Messiah. The idea that they truly believed Jesus to be the Messiah logically follows the acts of them dying and suffering claiming belief in Jesus as the Messiah.

You're still missing the point of the argument.[/QUOTE]

I spell it out one more time for you since you fail to read what has been posted:

[B]What would they have to gain?[/B]
- To be in the original scam: prestige, influence, admirers, better life, etc.
- To hold onto this scam even when faced with suffering/death: losing their face, angry mob killing them anyway when finding out they toyed with their lifes and believes for years and exploited them, willing to become a martyr, nothing left to lose, etc.
Take your pick from the above if you want but don't tell me NONE of these reasons are 100% impossible. If you accept that one of those reasons might be highly unlikely but still 0.0000001% likely/possible, this likelihood still exceed the alternative explanation that god revealed himself to them for years and years in person.

[B]Apostles believed Jesus to be the messiah:[/B]
The only account and evidence you have that they truely believed Jesus to be their messiah are their actions and own words back then in a way. Exactly ALL of their actions and words that make you believe that they believed can also be explained by the scam explanation. Again, how can you differentiate between an apostle who truely believed in Jesus or who acted and said he believed in Jesus because of a scam based on his words and actions? You simply cannot as the very nature of a scam requires the apostles to play their part and let everyone believe that they believed...GET IT?

[B]you're still missing the point of the argument:[/B]
No. But I am now realizing that I am argueing with a person inept of logical argueing and playing back and forth with hypothetical scenarios and sociological concepts. You

[QUOTE=shlver]:oldlol: He said the historical Jesus is not real when Jewish, Greco-Roman, and other historians mention him in their writings.

[/QUOTE]

No they don't.

I believe in Jesus Christ, but I'm not the type of guy to go ape shit if someone expresses their own opinion. I've thought about it, and one of the only reasons I believe it is because I wouldn't know what the **** to do if I didn't believe it. I'm hoping that I die and go to heaven. If I didn't believe in God then what the **** would happen to me?

[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]I believe in Jesus Christ, but I'm not the type of guy to go ape shit if someone expresses their own opinion. I've thought about it, [B]and one of the only reasons I believe it is because I wouldn't know what the **** to do if I didn't believe it.[/B] I'm hoping that I die and go to heaven. If I didn't believe in God then what the **** would happen to me?[/QUOTE]

That shouldn't be your reason for believing in God. If you truly believe in him, you should do it out of faith, not fear.