What is Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami's big 3 in the finals?

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Um, what about in the 98 finals when Jordan went 13/29, 14/33, 12/27, 9/26, and 15/35. You going to discount his contribution to that championship? Winning is more than just putting up pretty numbers. Against great defensive teams your numbers just aren't going to look good. They just won't, no matter what. And if you want to win, you just have to deal with it and find a way to put points on the board.[/QUOTE]

I understand this. There's just no way Kobe would have been in the Finals if he had a 2nd option on the level of a Jason terry or a Mo Williams.

Hell of a player though.

[QUOTE=thomaspynchon]Correct me if I am wrong, but did he not shoot extremely poorly against the Thunder? [/QUOTE]

Yeah, I attributed that to his swollen knee more than the Thunder defense though. Going into that series:

[QUOTE]In his final three games of the regular season, Bryant shot 5-of-23, 8-of-24 and 8-of-23, and multiple observers noted that he looked far less explosive than usual physically as a result of injuries to his knee and ankle.

The Portland loss seemed especially worrisome -- the playoffs were just six days away, and Bryant had sat out the previous two games to get better. Instead, it seemed as if he regressed, needing 23 shots to score 20 points and having so little elevation that Nicolas Batum blocked one of his deliveries flat-footed.[/QUOTE]

The 5/23 game was against the same Utah team he torched a couple weeks later.

and then

[QUOTE]The procedure did wonders for Bryant, who described the draining as having "the nasty stuff sucked out of my knee." Bryant averaged 24 points on 38.4 percent shooting in the first four games against the Thunder before having his knee drained and has been on a tear ever since, averaging 31.3 points on 51.5 percent shooting in his last 12 games.[/QUOTE]

He was visibly better after that.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]ok. spin it however you want. kobe was bad in game 7. a few boards (mainly because his center was out and he was guarding a player that put him in the paint defensively on every play) does not change anything. he was awful.....and if he didn't have a great team around him we would never have had a chance to win. thats a fact. if the lakers were not a great team with a great coach....that celtics 13 point lead would have turned into 20 plus and the game would have been over. plain and simple.

also.....you act like it was one series or one game. kobe was way too many blemishes on his playoff resume to be compared to MJ....its laughable. we all know the list. but sorry....you can't do what he did in 2004....and you can't let the likes of paul pierce and kg walk off the court in the finals as the 2 best players when you are in your prime and playing the biggest series of your career (at that point). LOL. imagine if drexler had outplayed jordan and won finals mvp and the title back in 92.....think we might see Jordan differently?

kobe will go down as one of the ten best ever. but both shaq and duncan were better players. so comparing him to MJ is out of the question.[/QUOTE]

I saw Kobe DOMINATING Duncan in several of those playoff series. Hell, his record as a Laker vs. Duncan's Spurs has been 18-8. So don't give me this crap about Duncan being a better player.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Um, what about in the 98 finals when Jordan went 13/29, 14/33, 12/27, 9/26, and 15/35. You going to discount his contribution to that championship? Winning is more than just putting up pretty numbers. Against great defensive teams your numbers just aren't going to look good. They just won't, no matter what. And if you want to win, you just have to deal with it and find a way to put points on the board.[/QUOTE]

you can't take things out of context. jordan was needed differently. he didn't have a low post presence to feed the ball to. pippen was also playing injured/awful agains the jazz in 98. he was jacking up 3s left and right in some games because he couldn't even run.

so if you are going to compare.....please use context.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Yeah, I attributed that to his swollen knee more than the Thunder defense though. Going into that series:



The 5/23 game was against the same Utah team he torched a couple weeks later.

and then



He was visibly better after that.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I wonder how many ounces he had drained. But then again, it's a nice luxury to have--other players would have been swept by that point.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I saw Kobe DOMINATING Duncan in several of those playoff series. Hell, his record as a Laker vs. Duncan's Spurs has been 18-8. So don't give me this crap about Duncan being a better player.[/QUOTE]

and i saw duncan dominating both shaq and kobe at times as well. duncan is simply better than kobe. he's more efficient, he's a much better teammate, he demands more attention offensively and opens up the court and gets his teammates better looks than kobe.....and duncan is literally ten times the defensive force that kobe is.

sorry dude. 4 titles with that level of talent around him. 11 straight years of 50 plus wins. duncan is the best player of this generation. sorry. really not worth debating. kobe scores 2.5 more points per game. thats its. and he does so on more shots and more possessions used.

again. 2.5 more points per game. duncan does just about everything else better and blows kobe out of the water in terms of defensive impact.

easily duncan.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]ok. spin it however you want. kobe was bad in game 7. a few boards (mainly because his center was out and he was guarding a player that put him in the paint defensively on every play) does not change anything. he was awful.....and if he didn't have a great team around him we would never have had a chance to win. thats a fact. if the lakers were not a great team with a great coach....that celtics 13 point lead would have turned into 20 plus and the game would have been over. plain and simple.

also.....you act like it was one series or one game. kobe was way too many blemishes on his playoff resume to be compared to MJ....its laughable. we all know the list. but sorry....you can't do what he did in 2004....and you can't let the likes of paul pierce and kg walk off the court in the finals as the 2 best players when you are in your prime and playing the biggest series of your career (at that point). LOL. imagine if drexler had outplayed jordan and won finals mvp and the title back in 92.....think we might see Jordan differently?

kobe will go down as one of the ten best ever. but both shaq and duncan were better players. so comparing him to MJ is out of the question.[/QUOTE]
Kobe has a great team blah blah blah. What was so great about Odom grabbing double digit rebounds in only one of the 7 finals games, or putting up double digit points twice in 7 games? What was so great about Fisher going 2 for 10 on 3 pointers in the 7 finals games? What was so great about Artest putting up 4 consecutive games of 6,2,9 and 7 points? What was so great about Andrew Bynum finishing the series with four consecutive statlines of 2pts/3rebs, 6pts/1reb, 2pts/4rebs, 2pts/6rebs?

People like to point out how great Kobe's teammates were, but really the only great teammate Kobe had in those Finals was Pau. The others came through for a game here and there, but on the whole played like garbage quite often. Kobe was the best player in those Finals whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not, and saying his team won in spite of him is just flat out wrong - his "great teammates" spent the majority of those finals playing like crap.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]and i saw duncan dominating both shaq and kobe at times as well. duncan is simply better than kobe. he's more efficient, he's a much better teammate, he demands more attention offensively and opens up the court and gets his teammates better looks than kobe.....and duncan is literally ten times the defensive force that kobe is.

sorry dude. 4 titles with that level of talent around him. 11 straight years of 50 plus wins. duncan is the best player of this generation. sorry. really not worth debating. kobe scores 2.5 more points per game. thats its. and he does so on more shots and more possessions used.

again. 2.5 more points per game. duncan does just about everything else better and blows kobe out of the water in terms of defensive impact.

[B]easily duncan[/B].[/QUOTE]

Duncan was a great player, but he is no Kobe, and certainly no Shaq. Kobe over Duncan by an 18-8 margin.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Kobe has a great team blah blah blah. What was so great about Odom grabbing double digit rebounds in only one of the 7 finals games, or putting up double digit points twice in 7 games? What was so great about Fisher going 2 for 10 on 3 pointers in the 7 finals games? What was so great about Artest putting up 4 consecutive games of 6,2,9 and 7 points? What was so great about Andrew Bynum finishing the series with four consecutive statlines of 2pts/3rebs, 6pts/1reb, 2pts/4rebs, 2pts/6rebs?

People like to point out how great Kobe's teammates were, but really the only great teammate Kobe had in those Finals was Pau. The others came through for a game here and there, but on the whole played like garbage quite often. Kobe was the best player in those Finals whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not, and saying his team won in spite of him is just flat out wrong - his "great teammates" spent the majority of those finals playing like crap.[/QUOTE]


gasol was the best player in that series in my opinion.

well lets see. gasol dominated game 1 on both ends. fisher one a road game in which kobe was awful by taking over down the stretch. again.....derek fisher won a game on the road in the nba finals.....if the lakers lose that game.....which they would have if kobe had kept shooting and playing terrible....the series was over. gasol was great down the stretch in game 7. and artest had a very good game 7 as well....and managed to hold pierce down all series.

now. what about kobe? you hate on his teammates. but what was kobe doing all series long? he was shooting a low percentage. he was shooting 25% in the 4th qtrs combined...LOL. he was turning the ball over in crucial spots. and he was shot jacking and not running the offense time and time again.

he was bad in the finals. gasol wasn't great...but he was better than kobe. and it was a team victory. kobe is "part" of that team. but he did not play well....and that is right in line with all of kobe's finals. he does not play well on the biggest stage.....thats a fact. deal with it.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Duncan was a great player, but he is no Kobe, and certainly no Shaq. Kobe over Duncan by an 18-8 margin.[/QUOTE]

what does 26 games have to do with entire careers? are you seriously trying to run with a 26 game sample size when each player has played over a thousand games?

my god you are an idiot. what do you mean...duncan is not kobe? of course not. duncan is much better. he's a more complete player that never let ego get in the way of winning. duncan has 4 titles playing with half the talent kobe has had. put duncan and a top 10 player of all time on the same team for 8 years and they win 8 titles. duncan was great from day 1 as well.

just because he isn't spectacular does not mean he isn't great. what do you think wade and duncan or lebron and duncan would have done over the last 7 years? neither one even comes close to shaq.....my guess is that the spurs win 5 titles minimum if duncan had wade/lebron. LOL

are you serious with this stuff.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]gasol was the best player in that series in my opinion.

well lets see. gasol dominated game 1 on both ends. fisher one a road game in which kobe was awful by taking over down the stretch. again.....derek fisher won a game on the road in the nba finals.....if the lakers lose that game.....which they would have if kobe had kept shooting and playing terrible....the series was over. gasol was great down the stretch in game 7. and artest had a very good game 7 as well....and managed to hold pierce down all series.

now. what about kobe? you hate on his teammates. but what was kobe doing all series long? he was shooting a low percentage. he was shooting 25% in the 4th qtrs combined...LOL. he was turning the ball over in crucial spots. and he was shot jacking and not running the offense time and time again.

he was bad in the finals. gasol wasn't great...but he was better than kobe. and it was a team victory. kobe is "part" of that team. but he did not play well....and that is right in line with all of kobe's finals. he does not play well on the biggest stage.....thats a fact. deal with it.[/QUOTE]
Let's look at the stat lines shall we:

Game 1: Kobe - 30/7/6 Pau - 23/14/3
Game 2: Kobe - 21/5/6 Pau - 25/8/3
Game 3: Kobe - 29/7/4 Pau - 13/10/4
Game 4: Kobe - 33/6/2 Pau - 21/6/3
Game 5: Kobe - 38/5/4 Pau - 12/12/0
Game 6: Kobe - 26/11/3 Pau - 17/13/9
Game 7: Kobe - 23/15/2 Pau - 19/18/2

Now, how exactly are you going to argue Pau played better?

I'd put him top 5, surpassing Magic, Duncan, Shaq and all that other good stuff.

Still wouldn't be better than MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Bird.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Let's look at the stat lines shall we:

Game 1: Kobe - 30/7/6 Pau - 23/14/3
Game 2: Kobe - 21/5/6 Pau - 25/8/3
Game 3: Kobe - 29/7/4 Pau - 13/10/4
Game 4: Kobe - 33/6/2 Pau - 21/6/3
Game 5: Kobe - 38/5/4 Pau - 12/12/0
Game 6: Kobe - 26/11/3 Pau - 17/13/9
Game 7: Kobe - 23/15/2 Pau - 19/18/2

Now, how exactly are you going to argue Pau played better?[/QUOTE]
Let's ignore the fact that Kobe took almost twice as many shots.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Let's look at the stat lines shall we:

Game 1: Kobe - 30/7/6 Pau - 23/14/3
Game 2: Kobe - 21/5/6 Pau - 25/8/3
Game 3: Kobe - 29/7/4 Pau - 13/10/4
Game 4: Kobe - 33/6/2 Pau - 21/6/3
Game 5: Kobe - 38/5/4 Pau - 12/12/0
Game 6: Kobe - 26/11/3 Pau - 17/13/9
Game 7: Kobe - 23/15/2 Pau - 19/18/2

Now, how exactly are you going to argue Pau played better?[/QUOTE]

Well, you gotta factor in efficiency as well. But Pau didn't show up on the road at all, that's my biggest problem with him getting FMVP. And the one road game he did score well, he only grabbed 6 boards and played bad interior D.

[QUOTE=New York Knicks]Let's ignore the fact that Kobe took almost twice as many shots.[/QUOTE]
Kobe's TS% was 52.8% a 1.7% dropoff from his regular season TS% of 54.5%, Pau's was 55.6%, a 3.7% dropoff from his regular season TS% of 59.3%. Clearly Pau was being affected by the Boston defense just as much if not moreso than Kobe in this series, so I see no reason why the pattern of shots allotted should have deviated.