Scottie Pippen appreciation thread.

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]Yippee. Jordan won 50 games and put up insane numbers. These days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Ask Lebron :oldlol: He put up 60+ win seasons and had pretty numbers and he's now looked at as a joke. Of course if he had a caliber player of Pippen by his side it would probably be a different story. The Jordan's, the Kobe's, the Lebron's are all alike. People tout them as this and that but at the end of the day they weren't winning jack sh** without their "sidekicks".
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Amazing how people can be so deluded. :oldlol: Again, I'm SURE that a 7 pt/4 reb 20 mpg rookie was the reason for Chicago winning 50 games that year. NOT the fact that Jordan had one of the 10 best individual seasons of all-time. It was PIPPEN. Get outta here with that noise... :oldlol:

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]And it's funny how "rookie 7 point/4 reb foul prone" Pippen is put in the starting lineup in a do-or-die Game 5 and [B]responds with a damn fine all-around game to get MJ his first ever playoff series win[/B]. [/QUOTE]

His 13/10/4 damn fine game meant more than Michael's 44-8-6 including a buzzer beater?

[QUOTE]
We don't need to argue here, but I disagree with your assertion of LeBron not deserving his all-defensive selections. He finished second in the DPOTY in 2009, that's pretty major and he always stands out as a threat to block any shot or steal any pass he;s close to.

As for stats and passing, while I agree in principal. When two players who play the same position and one averages more points, more assists and the same number of turnovers, I'm going to feel safe in saying he is better with the ball and a better passer in most cases.[/QUOTE]
He still only averaged something like 1 block and 1.5 steal. If Lebron was second in DPOTY, then Wade should've been first every year since 2006. Lebron played highlight defense. He impacted four or five plays in a big way, and then went back to being a bit below average one on one defender, and nothing special on every other part of defense.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Look at the context of my post in relation to what I was responding to. I don't think we disagree much if at all here.

Except the part where you say Kobe was more valuable/important than Shaq at any time between 2000-2002. That's just silly. He may have posted better numbers for whatever reasons (doubt he did though) but that was Shaq's team and all the role players fit Shaq's game better than Kobe's. He was easily the most important player as Phil Jackson makes very clear in the books about those years.

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Yeah, I think we mostly agree. I think borderline 25 is too high for Pippen but I can see how you got there. I personally don't think you can really rank top GOAT as 1through 50. The way i look at it as that Jordan #1 and then you have "tiers"

First tier (# 2 through # 9) is KAJ, Bird, Russel, Wilt, Magic, Duncan, Kobe, and Shaq. Second tier (#s 10 through 14) is West, Robetson, Havlicek, Olajuwan, and M. Malone. I am too lazy to split the following players by more tiers right now but i think the following players (#15 through 27) are all better than Pippen when one is talking GOAT. (Erving, Pettit, Malone, Barkley, Cousy, Garnett , Isiah, Stockton, Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, George Mikan.) For me, Pippen belongs in the very next tier, which includes players such D. Robinson, Dominique Wilkins, maybe Wade, Lebron, and couple of others.)

[QUOTE=kizut1659]You cannot be serious. Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he is not really comparable to Pippen. Scoring wise there is simply no comparison - again, Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he has been a 25-30 scorer for 10 straight years. Pippen's highest scoring average has been 22ppg and his career average is 16. We all know KObe is going to hit 30K points for his career, while Pippen's never hit 20K, scoring less than John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, etc. [/quote]

Who cares how much Pierce and Vince scored? What results did it get them? Pierce had MAD playoff droughts in the lowly Eastern Conference. He was scoring a lot of points on bad teams. Big F'n deal. Same goes for Vince Carter.

[quote]Kobe WAS Pippen (maybe slightly worse actually) in 2000, but already in 2001 and 2002 his role on the team was more central than Pippen's ever was. I don't think there was a single playoff series where Pippen was more important than Jordan. By contrast, Kobe was the most important player by a healthy margin in the series against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 (and arguably against the Kings in 2001.) [/quote]

There's no such thing as "most important player" when it comes to the stars on a team. You know why? Because neither player is winning a damn thing without the other :oldlol: Let me put it as plain as I can for you. Ultimately, Jordan without Pippen is losing. Kobe without Shaq/Gasol is losing. Lebron without....well, he hasn't had anything worthy of those two players above to even mention but you get the idea.

[quote]It of course goes without saying that Kobe's 3 straight finals appearances as "the man" in 2008-2010 cannot be compared to Pippen's sole good season as "the man" in 1993-1994.[/quote]

Of course it can't be compared. In 2008-2010 Kobe got to be with another significant talent (Pau Gasol) by his side. Where was Kobe before that? What was he doing before Gasol? Oh yeah, he was doing what Michael Jordan was doing before Pippen. He was doing what Lebron James was doing the last two seasons. He was putting up numbers and losing. 2005, no playoffs. 2006, first round exit. 2007, first round exit. Kobe failed over and over and over and went through all of his growing pains and quitting and throwing tantrums and demanding trades and all that. Gasol comes to the Lakers for magic beans and all is right with the world. If Gasol never comes to LA Kobe is in the same boat Lebron James is in now...criticized and scrutinized :oldlol:

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Amazing how people can be so deluded. :oldlol: Again, I'm SURE that a 7 pt/4 reb 20 mpg rookie was the reason for Chicago winning 50 games that year. NOT the fact that Jordan had one of the 10 best individual seasons of all-time. It was PIPPEN. Get outta here with that noise... :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Yippee...pretty numbers, 50 wins and possibly a first round exit. Like I said before, these days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Hell, Lebron got to the ECF with a 60 win team and put up pretty numbers. What did it get him in the end? Criticized and scrutinized :oldlol:

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]His 13/10/4 damn fine game meant more than Michael's 44-8-6 including a buzzer beater?[/QUOTE]

Pippen put up 24/6/5 as a rookie in his first start in do-or-die Game 5. Not sure where you got those numbers from? Looking at '89 maybe?

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]His 13/10/4 damn fine game meant more than Michael's 44-8-6 including a buzzer beater?[/QUOTE]
Um, rookie Pippen had 24/6/5/4 in the game in question - the do or die game 5 vs. Cavs. He also led a 10-1 run with MJ on the bench that gave the Bulls their first lead of the game. Maybe you should watch the video he linked, because without the "worthless scrub rookie Pippen", Bulls are out of the first round again that year - MJ's numbers and all. Seems like you are thinking of the '89 series when hitman was clearly referring to the '88 series (first playoff series win of MJ's career).

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]Pippen put up 24/6/5 as a rookie in his first start in do-or-die Game 5. Not sure where you got those numbers from? Looking at '89 maybe?[/QUOTE]

That's right, I was thinking the "shot on Ehlo" Cavs series came first because the Bulls were underdogs, they had a better regular season in '88 though didn't they?

Look all great players have a positive impact on one another but this "MJ made Pippen into an all-star" nonsense really has to stop...

He was a top 5 draft pick, Bulls were aware of the skill set he possessed and traded for him. He played PG most of his life before a growth spurt and developed his court vision and ball handling skills then. He averaged 3 spg in college (more than MJ btw), had great team defense instincts as early as his rookie season. Pippen did what all players do, get better as he gained more experience. Phil is the one who helped his game more than anyone by putting him in an offensive system that would suited his strengths - though a more uptempo style might have been even better. MJ definitely made him a better individual defender, increased his bball IQ but other than that, I'm not seeing it. And like I said, I'm not sure he helped Pip's game more than Phil did.

MJ wasn't taking Scottie's jumpers at the gym for him, MJ didn't make him talented enough to be taken top 5 in a draft, MJ didn't give him his unique all-around skill-set that he developed due to his PG background, MJ didn't give him the work ethic which Scottie used to rise from being a team manager at the start of college to being one of the top prospects in the draft after college. I know it's easy to look back through homer-vision and rewrite history but do you really need to MJ to take credit for everything? He made him a better player. Just like Pippen made MJ a better player by giving the ball to him in the right spots, giving him rest by taking a defensive assignment if he was tired or was in foul trouble, by facilitating the team's offense and getting teammates involved so MJ wouldn't have to worry about it.

It's shameful these dudes on here can't even give him credit for becoming the player he became, because once again "it was all MJ". How many other guys did MJ play with over the course of his career? Why didn't he "make them"?

[QUOTE]Jordan won 50 games in 1988 when Pippen was a foul-prone benchwarming 20 mpg scrub. Get real.[/QUOTE]
Dominique won 50 that year with about the same level of help. Almost took down the Celtics too. Where's his medal? :oldlol:

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]His 13/10/4 damn fine game meant more than Michael's 44-8-6 including a buzzer beater?[/QUOTE]
LOL ... MJ's clutch layup and CLUTCH defensive stop / steal on Malone to even get to the game winner?

People here are reeeeeee diculous.

May i ask why i deserved 3 negative reps for this thread? Do you hate Pippen that much or? Just asking, maybe i missed something.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...[/QUOTE]

This is stupid. :facepalm Why wouldn't Jordan want to play with someone that's been by his side for 12 or 13 years...whom he won multiple titles with? Why would he need to prove he could win without Pippen when winning was enough for him? Jordan wasn't threatened by Pippen's presence on the team, nor should he have been. They complimented each other perfectly to the tune of 6 titles. Why would he want to opt for proving he could win without Pippen when it wasn't even an issue until well after he retired when internet nerds needed a way to invalidate anything he did?

Jordan and Pippen were more rational about their relationship than their respective fans. I can understand Shaq and Kobe fans fighting over this and that because they themselves did. But Jordan and Pippen rarely ever had anything negative to say about each other and were probably each other's biggest fans. Jordan said Pippen was the best player in the league. He said Pippen was the best player on the Dream Team. He told the world that Pippen was "his MVP" when he received the 1997 Finals MVP. Jordan complimented one guy in his Hall of Fame speech -- Scottie Pippen. Pippen has repeatedly said Jordan is the GOAT. Repeatedly said Jordan helped him reach his potential. Pippen chose Jordan to introduce him into the Hall of Fame.

This is how you want teammates to act. They respected each other because the only thing each of them wanted was to win. It's f*cked up that we can't appreciate Jordan without mentioning how he didn't win sh*t without Pippen. Or we can't discuss Pippen without mentioning that he was a useless scrub without Jordan when [I]they themselves know better.[/I]

I come on this board and all these people with all these thinly veiled agendas come in to push one player over another when that's not how we're supposed to view basketball. Both Jordan and Pippen fans know good and *** damn well they helped each other reach their potential (winning AND individual accolades). Nobody wins alone. Could Pippen have won without Jordan? Of course. Given a 15 year career, the right team and coaching staff -- Yes. Could Jordan have won without Pippen? Yes. Given the proper environment, yes. It's a stupid argument. Did they win together? Yes. 6 times. That's all that should matter.

[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]Pippen was never a legit MVP candidate anymore than Chauncey Billups was one. His name might have been mentioned, but he was never seriously going to win the award.

I love how building up Pippen is now seen as the cool thing as long as it tarnishes Jordan.

Listen, those of us that actually watched the game back then will tell you, Pippen was a sidekick. He was a great, great player. One of the top 30 in league history, but that team lived and breathed Michael Jordan. He was it.[/QUOTE]

Billups? :oldlol:

Peak Pippen was actually very close to mid 80s Magic statistically speaking...

'94 Pippen:

22/9/6/3 on 49%
All-defensive first team
23.2 PER (lets use PER since MJ fans love this statistic)
Bulls were 51-21 in games he played, and 4-6 without him

'85 Magic:

18/6/13/2 on 56%
23.2 PER
Lakers were 57-20 in games he played, and 5-0 without him

Magic is obviously the better offensive player (and would go on to become an even better player after '87), but Pippen has a huge huge edge defensively. But had Pippen's prime come in the mid 80s, against a worse league defensively and while playing on a faster pace (imagine even more transition scoring opportunities for Scottie), is a 24/10/7 season on 50+% really out of the question here? Maybe even something like 25/10/8 if he played in the mid 80s run and gun Western Conference (defensively those were some of the worst conferences in NBA history, almost every team gave up 110+ ppg). Pippen can lock down Magic in a one on one matchup as we've already seen in '91, but can you say the same is true the other way around? I think '87-'89 Magic > any version of Pippen, but mid 80s Magic vs. Pippen is a really good comparison imo. Both players can dominate a game while taking less than 10 shots too.