Why LeBron is (maybe) the best player in the NBA

[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]No he's not easily the best in the league. When he's locked in he's amazing but that's with anyone getting hot. When Wade, Kobe, Durant etc get hot they are ridiculous as well. I'm looking at his game not the stats he puts up. If stats were the only thing people looked at then they would think Wilt is the G.O.A.T not Michael. I'm looking at what he can do offensively and defensively. He still has his flaws like everyone. But there are glaring weaknesses in his game but because he is so good in others it can make up for it. LeBron is a beast and I would love to have him on my team if I were a coach but he's still more athletic based than skill based. There's nothing wrong with that but I just judge players in a different way I guess[/QUOTE]

The difference between Lebron and the rest of them(Wade, Kobe, Durant, etc), is he does everything else better aside from scoring. Best rebounder? Lebron. Best Passer? Lebron. Best ball handler? Lebron. Best court vision? Lebron.

When he is on the court he heavily impacts the game, he makes everyone around him better... he doesn't even need to be scoring to do it. You can't say the same thing about Kobe and Durant, and while Wade is that sort of player, its not to the same extent.

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]Really? I think you're forgetting we're talking about Sports here. It doesn't take 9000 advanced stats to show you that Tom Brady is one of the greatest QB's in the NFL you can just watch 5 of his games. Just like people in the 60's didn't have to use advanced stats to decided whether or not Russell was better than Wilt or vice versa.[/quote] It takes just as much evidence to demonstrate proof in sports as it does in any other field. Observers, analysts, and participants in sports are subject to the same logical fallacies as they are when forming opinions about everything else. Most people would probably consider it a waste of a time to take sports as seriously as science, but there are plenty of people that are willing to spend their time doing just that, and their opinions should take precedent over more casual fans.


[quote]The same way I don't need to look at Per to tell you Dirk is better than Bosh.[/quote] Maybe, maybe not. If someone comes forward with an argument, backed by statistics, stating that Bosh is a better player, his opinion ought to be taken more seriously than your baseless opinion. If you respond by criticizing his analysis of those statistics, and provide solid reason to back up your claims, you've got a healthy debate going.

[quote] As Sports fans we watch these games, We observe and we witness firsthand the extent of these players individual abilties. We see Their strengths, We see their weakness, We see if they're clutch, We see if they're playoffs performers , we see if they're willing to pass it off to someone else who's wide open for the last shot, We see their ego, we see their confidence, we see the good, the bad and the ugly because everything is left on the court night in and night out. I don't need a win Share to validate my opinion when I can just tell you who was the superior player when it mattered against the the good teams and you can't deny it because you've seen it yourself.[/quote] Yeah, because the popular opinion is always right, and there are never any dissenters. Maybe you should reread: [quote=Inactive]Scientists once knew, from their years of experience treating, and analyzing patients, that draining their blood was an effective treatment for most diseases. How many fans are convinced that their favorite team wins more, when they're watching? How many people claim that they love one brand of soft drink, and hate the other, and then can't tell the difference between the two in blind taste tests? How many people are given placebos, and still think that they were given effective medicine? How many people thought that they were healed by Franz Mesmer's animal magnetism, before he was outed as a fraud?[/quote]




[quote]This isn't a political debate where I have to collect data for weeks to prove a point. We all watch the same nba, We all watch what the players do on a normal basis throughout an 82 game season. If that's not a big enough sample size for you to understand who the better players in the leauge are then I find that weird. It's simple and down to the point.

That's always been my view on it[/QUOTE]I'm not sure where I said anything about the regular season not being an adequate sample size. What we're judging is how well t he players performed over that stretch of games. Problem is the difficulty of accurately assessing their effectiveness, and my post was specifically about how that can't be done without objective data and analysis. I pointed to examples of this in medicine, and brand preference, because those have actually been documented.

[QUOTE=comerb]The difference between Lebron and the rest of them(Wade, Kobe, Durant, etc), is he does everything else better aside from scoring. Best rebounder? Lebron. Best Passer? Lebron. Best ball handler? Lebron. Best court vision? Lebron.

When he is on the court he heavily impacts the game, he makes everyone around him better... he doesn't even need to be scoring to do it. You can't say the same thing about Kobe and Durant, and while Wade is that sort of player, its not to the same extent.[/QUOTE]

Actually if you take into account size his rebounding isn't all that much better than theirs. Kobe is a 6'6'' 205 guard and he averages 5 almost 6 rpg which is very good for a guy his size especially considering the rebounders he has on his team. As far as passing I know people look at his Assist numbers and assume that but that is a result of the offense he plays in. He plays PG on offense pretty much. Ball Handler? Well for a 6'9'' 270 guy he is very comfortable handling the ball but he turns the ball over a lot as well which is the same reason he gets more Assists. Kobe can dominate games just with his presence. Same with Wade. They command double teams, they find teammates, they rebound well for their size and they are clutch. I agree about Durant though he still has a long way to go he is purely a scorer right now although he is very good at it. My point is that LeBron is very good but I think he still has a few areas to perfect until I consider him the best in the league. I have no problem giving him that title.

[QUOTE=Inactive][QUOTE]It takes just as much evidence to demonstrate proof in sports as it does in any other field. Observers, analysts, and participants in sports are subject to the same logical fallacies as they are when forming opinions about everything else. Most people would probably consider it a waste of a time to take sports as seriously as science, but there are plenty of people that are willing to spend their time doing just that, and their opinions should take precedent over more casual fans.[/QUOTE]

I don't consider myself a casual fan by any strech since I watch much more games than most fans do. Pay extra money for leauge pass, and spend half my time on basketball forums. Just because I don't spend 90% of my time observing stats on basketball reference and instead spend my time watching games doesn't support any claim of being a" More casual fan".

[QUOTE]Maybe, maybe not. If someone comes forward with an argument, backed by statistics, stating that Bosh is a better player, his opinion ought to be taken more seriously than your baseless opinion. If you respond by criticizing his analysis of those statistics, and provide solid reason to back up your claims, you've got a healthy debate going.
[/QUOTE]
Baseless? I'll tell you exactly who's carried their team, Who's been more clutch, Who's a better rebounder, Who's a better post player ext.

(HYPOTHETICAL)

And at the end of the day that guy I'm arguing with would be the person who's opinion would be taking less serios because anyone who's watched both
mAVS AND Raptors games can confirm this and who's the better player.



Yeah, because the popular opinion is always right, and there are never any dissenters. Maybe you should reread:




[QUOTE]I'm not sure where I said anything about the regular season not being an adequate sample size. What we're judging is how well t he players performed over that stretch of games. Problem is the difficulty of accurately assessing their effectiveness, and my post was specifically about how that can't be done without objective data and analysis. I pointed to examples of this in medicine, and brand preference, because those have actually been documented.[/QUOTE]

If you find it difficult to accurately asses the effectiveness of players over a stretch of games that's your personal problem. I've never had that problem cause I spend a lot of my time examining games and re watching them. Basketball is a simple sport where you see everything.

EVery point I make in a basketball argument can be confirmed by watching games. And I'll personally cut up a two hour complete game into sections just to prove a point.

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]Don't get me wrong if we're in a bar and talking about who's better I'm not just gonna say Wade and not give you any reasons. I'll tell you exactly who's come through when they've had the ball in their hands at the end of the game. I'll tell you who's jumpshot has been more consistant. Who's had more cold streaks where they can't make shots, Who maintains the leads when the other guy isn't on the court. Who has more trust in their teamates, Who's been the one counted on for scoring whenever the team gets behind.Who Runs the pick and roll better,Who's better at finishing Who gets the most fast break points I'll tell you who showed up against the elites ( Spurs,Lakers,Celts ext)

Ext

(All of those were hypothetical)

But these are all things you can see from watching games. It's not like I'm gonna tell you a players better and not give you my reasons. I've seen these players enough to tell you their tendencies and who's counted on for what when the games matter.

And everything I say you can go home, Watch the games and confirm.[/QUOTE]


Did the 82games.com stats surprise you about the clutch players? I know it surprised me. It's because, like people have suggested, we remember a lot of things we want to, and forget the others. It's human nature. When debating a point however, all these things come into play which is why it's always good to get an objective side to an argument rather than simply what you saw, or THINK you saw. (not just you in particular, i'm guilty of it as well).

Lebron is the best player in the NBA, watch the Heat play... See how Wade is on with Bosh and Lebron is on with the scrubs

[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]Actually if you take into account size his rebounding isn't all that much better than theirs. Kobe is a 6'6'' 205 guard and he averages 5 almost 6 rpg which is very good for a guy his size especially considering the rebounders he has on his team. As far as passing I know people look at his Assist numbers and assume that but that is a result of the offense he plays in. He plays PG on offense pretty much. Ball Handler? Well for a 6'9'' 270 guy he is very comfortable handling the ball but he turns the ball over a lot as well which is the same reason he gets more Assists. [B]Kobe can dominate games just with his presence. Same with Wade.[/B] They command double teams, they find teammates, they rebound well for their size and they are clutch. I agree about Durant though he still has a long way to go he is purely a scorer right now although he is very good at it. My point is that LeBron is very good but I think he still has a few areas to perfect until I consider him the best in the league. I have no problem giving him that title.[/QUOTE]

LeBron can't?

It surprises me that people still criticize LeBron's game with the same point...that he has so much to learn and improve upon; EVERY player in NBA history has areas they can improve upon that would vastly increase their impact on the game. It's unreasonable to expect them to perfect EVERY area of basketball. At this point in their careers, I think it's quite silly to suggest Kobe or Durant as being a better individual player than LeBron. They may have more "skills" but it's all about what you do on the court and not a single player in the league has more of an impact or is more dominant than LeBron James. (The skill thing never made sense to me. Pau Gasol is NOT better than Dwight despite having more "skill")

[QUOTE=Simple Jack]LeBron can't?

It surprises me that people still criticize LeBron's game with the same point...that he has so much to learn and improve upon; EVERY player in NBA history has areas they can improve upon that would vastly increase their impact on the game. It's unreasonable to expect them to perfect EVERY area of basketball. At this point in their careers, I think it's quite silly to suggest Kobe or Durant as being a better individual player than LeBron. They may have more "skills" but it's all about what you do on the court and not a single player in the league has more of an impact or is more dominant than LeBron James. (The skill thing never made sense to me. Pau Gasol is NOT better than Dwight despite having more "skill")[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying that he can't because he does do it. And I'm not saying be perfect at EVERY aspect because no one is or ever has been. I'm saying that he has weakness that can be softened. Me personally I don't think it's silly to suggest Kobe as a better, more complete player. MJ didn't always put up the most dominant numbers especially later in his career but everyone still regarded him as the hands down best player in the league. (I'm not comparing him to Kobe, LeBron or anyone else it's just for reference). Like I said, LeBron is the Box Score King, but as far as what he is capable of doing in his game right now, his level of skill vs athleticism, he is not the best in my opinion. If you disagree that's fine. We just judge players in a different manner is all.

Anyone that says anything different than Lebron is either a hater (HUGE FAN of another Player) or just doesn't know basketball.. Wade is Great and right now might be #2 and Kobe is still in the conversation and there are a couple others on the rise but LBJ is numero Uno..

If you think Lebron is the best player in basketball based on his stats than you don't understand basketball.

Here are the reasons why:

A 1st option player needs to be aggresive for the whole game. It is silly compare how many points and FG% between 1st option players because as long as you stay aggressive, you are going to make it easier for your team mates. Now I watch Lebron play a lot and he is too passive and is an opportunistic scorer. This means he only takes the shots that are there. Now this is great and all for his stats but when he can't find his shot he'll throw it at his team mate and expect them to jack one up or he'll do nothing at all. He'll end up with 30pt and 50FG% but his team mates would look awful. There is nothing wrong with the way he plays but thats not how a dominant 1st option should play. Thats why I give a nod to Wade and Bryant. Wade and Bryant if they were in the brink of losing a crucial game in the playoffs would go all in and jack up 15 shots in a row and not care whether they miss it all.

Rebounding - Kobe and Wade have been the better offensive rebounders for most of their careers. Defensive rebounding - for the most part unless you are getting outrebounded - you are taking boards from your team mates and not your opponents.

2009 against Orlando - Lebron when playing poorly wanted to rack up rebounds, ending up not closing on Turk and Lewis and thats why they were going off all series with their 3's.

Assists - Lebron having better court vision than Wade? absolutely stupid. He gets more assist than Wade. He is passes more than Wade. He does not have better court vision. See my first point as to why he gets more assist.

Defense - offball defense is non existent. Steals and blocks are not offball defense. He makes a lot of mistakes that hurts him in the playoffs. He has a bad habit of letting a man run past him so he can go for a block. I remember 2009 against Orlando, he let Courtney Lee run past him at half court so he can get a chasedown, ending up getting dunked on.

All in all, Good thing he is playing with Wade now because Lebron can now get the stats he wants and win playoff games probably as the 2nd option.

[QUOTE=knightfall88]If you think Lebron is the best player in basketball based on his stats than you don't understand basketball.

Here are the reasons why:

A 1st option player needs to be aggresive for the whole game. It is silly compare how many points and FG% between 1st option players because as long as you stay aggressive, you are going to make it easier for your team mates. Now I watch Lebron play a lot and he is too passive and is an opportunistic scorer. This means he only takes the shots that are there. Now this is great and all for his stats but when he can't find his shot he'll throw it at his team mate and expect them to jack one up or he'll do nothing at all. He'll end up with 30pt and 50FG% but his team mates would look awful. There is nothing wrong with the way he plays but thats not how a dominant 1st option should play. Thats why I give a nod to Wade and Bryant. Wade and Bryant if they were in the brink of losing a crucial game in the playoffs would go all in and jack up 15 shots in a row and not care whether they miss it all.

Rebounding - Kobe and Wade have been the better offensive rebounders for most of their careers. Defensive rebounding - for the most part unless you are getting outrebounded - you are taking boards from your team mates and not your opponents.

2009 against Orlando - Lebron when playing poorly wanted to rack up rebounds, ending up not closing on Turk and Lewis and thats why they were going off all series with their 3's.

Assists - Lebron having better court vision than Wade? absolutely stupid. He gets more assist than Wade. He is passes more than Wade. He does not have better court vision. See my first point as to why he gets more assist.

Defense - offball defense is non existent. Steals and blocks are not offball defense. He makes a lot of mistakes that hurts him in the playoffs. He has a bad habit of letting a man run past him so he can go for a block. I remember 2009 against Orlando, he let Courtney Lee at half court so he can get a chasedown, ending up getting dunked on.

All in all, Good thing he is playing with Wade now because Lebron can now get the stats he wants and win playoff games probably as the 2nd option.[/QUOTE]


Worst post ever. Watch some Miami Heat Games Kiddo!!!!

[QUOTE=sh0wtime]Let me settle this with some facts, if you are to lazy to thoroughly observe the info, then i can say in short words Wade is close but the edge is still clear towards Lebrons side in terms of who has been playing better for Heat.

[B]LEBRON[/B]

PPG: 24.8
RPG: 6.8
APG: 7.3
FG .481%
3PT .358%
FT .773%
PER / EFF - 26 / 26
Win Shares - 6.9
Offensive Win Shares - 4.4
Defensive Win Shares - 2.4

[b]WADE[/b]

PPG: 25.0
RPG: 6.5
APG: 4.2
FG .495%
3PT .313%
FT .742%
PER / EFF - 26 / 24
Win Shares - 6.2
Offensive Win Shares - 3.9
Defensive Win Shares - 2.4

And this, the biggest decievable stat here is the +/-, you can overlook it if you wish.

[img]http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7963/82games.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/9906/82games2.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

now let me school you on your own statistics which you posted. wades average +/- with him off and on the court is higher than lebrons, as is bosh's who has higher than both.

wades net is lower because hes played two less games. same with the win shares. their win shares per minute of play is identical. wades per is higher, though i like how you covered by rounding wades down to equal lebrons.

so... basically, your own stats dont support you.

yes lebron is more productive because he plays the more ball dominant role.

and yes he is a better player, though not for the dumbass reasons you stated, as they dont even support your theory.

im probably a bigger wade fan than lebron but for anyone who actually thinks wade is better than lebron, youre kidding.

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]

I don't consider myself a casual fan by any strech since I watch much more games than most fans do. Pay extra money for leauge pass, and spend half my time on basketball forums. Just because I don't spend 90% of my time observing stats on basketball reference and instead spend my time watching games doesn't support any claim of being a" More casual fan".[/quote]It doesn't matter what you consider yourself to be. I assumed that you would understand from the context that I was referring to the depth of analysis when I used the term "casual".


[quote]Baseless? I'll tell you exactly who's carried their team, Who's been more clutch, Who's a better rebounder, Who's a better post player ext.

(HYPOTHETICAL)

And at the end of the day that guy I'm arguing with would be the person who's opinion would be taking less serios because anyone who's watched both
mAVS AND Raptors games can confirm this and who's the better player.[/quote] ... I bet Bosh's mom has watched more of his games than you have, and I bet she thinks Bosh >>>>> Dirk. I've seen people who've watched hundreds of nba games state that Scottie Pippin > Lebron James. If a guy from Ohio, and a guy from Florida/Illinois watch every Heat game together, they will likely have different opinions about how good Lebron is in relation to Wade. This is why you need evidence for your arguments to hold water. Watching a lot of games doesn't qualify you to make statements without evidence, anymore than looking through a telescope all day would qualify you to make unsubstantiated statements about cosmology.
[quote]
If you find it difficult to accurately asses the effectiveness of players over a stretch of games that's your personal problem. I've never had that problem cause I spend a lot of my time examining games and re watching them. Basketball is a simple sport where you see everything.

EVery point I make in a basketball argument can be confirmed by watching games. And I'll personally cut up a two hour complete game into sections just to prove a point.[/QUOTE]You're confirming the accuracy of your own opinions, and you think that makes them objectively true? All I can say to that is :oldlol: . I can personally confirm that it's cold outside. I've checked it several times, and used multiple thermometers. Therefor global warming is bunk. Can't believe those dumb scientists sit in their climate controlled offices, looking at numbers, and think they know whats up.

[QUOTE=Inactive]. I can personally confirm that it's cold outside. I've checked it several times, and used multiple thermometers. Therefor global warming is bunk. Can't believe those dumb scientists sit in their climate controlled offices, looking at numbers, and think they know whats up.[/QUOTE]

what a terrible example you used for your own case.

a large majority of stats and advance stats support wade anyway. along with his actions and recent play on the court. what yung d-will is saying is perfectly fine. you seem to be insinuating he doesnt look at stats at all, which he has stated otherwise.

[QUOTE=donald_trump]what a terrible example you used for your own case.

a large majority of stats and advance stats support wade anyway. along with his actions and recent play on the court. what yung d-will is saying is perfectly fine. you seem to be insinuating he doesnt look at stats at all, which he has stated otherwise.[/QUOTE]What is your objection to my analogy?

I'm not arguing that Lebron is better than Wade, or vice versa.

Whether he looks at stats or not is irrelevant.