Gary Payton has become insanely underrated

No, he's really not under rated, and his impact wasn't near as great as most other all time great point guards. In fact I'd take Rose, Deron and CP3 over him in his peak, no questions asked. For the amount the guy needed the ball he produced very little on offense, was inconsistent, and shot a frustrating amount of 3 pointers for how average a shooter he was. He wasn't very good at getting his team mates involved, and he really clashed with pretty much all his coaches, and didn't get along with quite a few of his team mates.
He had the defense to make up for his rather mediocre offense, and he is probably a top 5-10 all time point guard, but he's not under rated, and he's not really comparable to the guys that he is often times compared to. Like Kidd, or Nash.

[QUOTE=Teanett]game 4

[I]MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Michael Jordan 41 6 19 .316 0 2 .000 11 13 .846 1 2 3 2 1 0 4 3 23
Gary Payton 44 7 15 .467 3 6 .500 4 6 .667 0 3 3 11 2 0 2 4 21


game 6


MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Gary Payton 47 7 10 .700 3 5 .600 2 2 1.000 0 4 4 7 2 0 5 3 19
Michael Jordan 43 5 19 .263 1 3 .333 11 12 .917 3 6 9 7 2 0 5 3 22[/I]

you can say he outplayed him in game 4, but jordan still got to the line and produced, and the bulls were already up 3-0.
payton played jordan as well as anyone but contrary to the myth, jordan still dominated the series and the match up with payton.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't quite agree he dominated the series.


Coming into the Finals, Jordan was averaging 36.3ppg, and had scored 30 or more points, 14 out of 17 games. Really amazing and what you expect from the GOAT in the biggest stage of the game. That's what you call dominating.

Then he met the [B]1996 DPOY Gary Payton[/B].

George Karl started the series out by playing Payton on Pippen, and throwing many double teams on Jordan. Jordan did pretty good against that, averaged 29ppg on 45%. Mid-way Game 3 Karl finally switched Payton to guard Jordan. For the rest of the series, Jordan was neutralized. Here were his #s for the rest of the series with Payton as the primary defender

[B]Games 3-6 (Payton primary defender)
33/83 39.8% 25.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 3.5tpg[/B]

Honestly, that's what you call dominating? He was averaging almost as many TOs as assists and was inefficient from the field.

His overall series numbers aren't much more impressive, and either way, I wouldn't call any of that dominating. But yes, Karl probably regret not putting Payton on Jordan from the start. Here is what NBA analyst Walton had to say about that


[B][I]Seattle coach George Karl would "rue" the decision to "hide [Payton] from 'the king'" in the early games of the series[/I][/B]




In fact, later on Harper got injured and Jordan had to guard Payton as well. And honestly, Payton outplayed him in their head to head matchups.

Bill Walton himself said
[B][I]


Bill Walton, commentating for NBC at the time, said Payton "outplayed" Jordan during the second half of the series[/I][/B]
-Bill Walton



Quite an accomplishment to outplay the GOAT in his prime in the NBA Finals head to head
:applause:

[QUOTE=GP_20]I wouldn't quite agree he dominated the series.


Coming into the Finals, Jordan was averaging 36.3ppg, and had scored 30 or more points, 14 out of 17 games. Really amazing and what you expect from the GOAT in the biggest stage of the game. That's what you call dominating.

Then he met the [B]1996 DPOY Gary Payton[/B].

George Karl started the series out by playing Payton on Pippen, and throwing many double teams on Jordan. Jordan did pretty good against that, averaged 29ppg on 45%. Mid-way Game 3 Karl finally switched Payton to guard Jordan. For the rest of the series, Jordan was neutralized. Here were his #s for the rest of the series with Payton as the primary defender

[B]Games 3-6 (Payton primary defender)
33/83 39.8% 25.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 3.5tpg[/B]

Honestly, that's what you call dominating? He was averaging almost as many TOs as assists and was inefficient from the field.

His overall series numbers aren't much more impressive, and either way, I wouldn't call any of that dominating.[/QUOTE]

You are back?

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!


Oh well, it's no surprise to see your word is completely worthless.

[QUOTE=LJJ]
Oh well, it's no surprise to see your word is completely worthless.[/QUOTE]
You mean my word in saying I am gone forever?

Well I said I'd comeback to defend Payton. Nothing more nothing less.

[QUOTE=Teanett]and while we're at it...
i believe that his dpoy was undeserved.
he was great at what he does (lock down guards one on one, steals, denying passes) but he didnt have the same defensive impact as admiral, dream, motumbo, pip or rodman that year.[/QUOTE]

This is a ridiculous statement. How do you measure defensive impact? How about how good your team plays defense?


The Sonics in 1996 were[B] ranked #2[/B] in the league in defense, behind the Bulls who had Jordan/Pippen/Rodman all in their primes. All 3 made All-D 1st. Payton had no one teammate on All-Defensive team members, yet he anchored Seattle to be the 2nd best defense in the league. Furthermore, they were #1 in TOs. Karl gets some credit too, but Payton was the defensive anchor of that Sonics team.

Hakeem, Mutombo, if their "defense" made more impact in 96 I'd expect their teams to have played better defense than Payton's Sonics. This just was not the case.

And Pippen had Jordan/Rodman, it becomes MUCH easier to play defense when you have such great defensive teammates.




I think anchor of the 2nd best defense in the league, #1 in steals playing tremendous team defense, and some exceptional 1on1 defense, Payton was well worthy of the 1996 DPOY. No other player had the team defense and individual defense resum

[QUOTE=GP_20]imary defender

[B]Games 3-6 (Payton primary defender)
33/83 39.8% 25.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 3.5tpg[/B]

Honestly, that's what you call dominating? He was averaging almost as many TOs as assists and was inefficient from the field.

[/QUOTE]

i don't know about you but to me and most people
[B]26 ppg is still dominating.[/B]
it's not up to jordan's standards but far from being neutralized.
if a player scores 26 on you, it's still an ass-whoopin', now it's not as bad as
he whooped john starks, but it's still an ass-whoopin'.
just because jordan whooped his ass doesn't mean it's not an ass-whoopin'.
imagine jerry stackhouse layin' 26 on the glove. what would the reaction be like? [I]payton is stackhouse's biaatch![/I]

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Not better than Nash. Only playoff series I'd take him over Nash is if there is some all-star PG matchup (even then it's a tough call), but otherwise it's Nash.

Generally not a fan of PGs who need to hold the ball as long as GP did to score (iso on postups, get in the paint etc), especially when you couple that with his inconsistent shot and overall inefficiency (52-54 TS%). PGs impact the game WAY more offensively than defensively (Magic says hi, same with Isiah). Look at what happened to the Sonics defensive rating after Kemp/Karl left, they were an average to below average team defensively. This is not centers we're discussing, who can come in and have a huge impact on the teams defense, this is PGs. Now look at the impact Nash has on his teams offensively, which have some of the best offensive ratings relative to league in history (and even with the poor cast he is given now, they are still top 5 in offense). Primary job of my PG is to run plays, create easy shots for everyone, stretch the floor with shooting, take over scoring wise (efficiently) when necessary and Nash blows GP out of the water with this. Nash's offensive impact on the average night is way more game changing and important than GP's defensive impact (overrated as fukk). GP is literally worse at everything other than holding the ball, posting up his guy and scoring that way. Never dominated a series on offense like Nash did against Spurs in '07 or Mavs in '05.

He's in my top 5 PGs, but quit overrating the dude. Funny though that the guy you're setting out to trash is probably the most underrated PG of all time. People think his defense hurts the team way more than it does, and even then when you look at opposing PG's production against him, it's not even bad. Not like TP or any PG he faced in the '04-'07 stretch torched him.[/QUOTE]

Do you have no respect for defense at all?
You are missing that Nash is a defensive liability. The Suns have to make a game plan around Nash considering that any opposing star PG is going to go abuse him. I've seen it too many times. I remember the series against the Suns, the Spurs game plan was to have Parker go after Nash. And the Suns had to counter that with giving help defense for Nash. It's things like this, 40 minutes a game, that add up and really make a difference.


1st of all even the 1st year after Kemp left the Sonic's were a Top 10 team defensively. By the time Karl left Payton had lost a step or 2 on defense, but Payton and Karl's defensive scheme styles really helped each other. I mean, even Karl didnt' have as much defensive success with Milwaukee or Denver. And with Payton anchoring Seattle's defense, they were one of the top defenses over the decade. In 1996 they were #2 in defense, as good as any dominant Center led defense should be.

Right? At the end of the day it's about stopping the opposing team from scoring. And a Payton anchored defense did as good as Hakeem/Mutombo/Robinson led defenses did.

Thus, the impact was there. When you have a PG like Payton who terrorizes the opposing team's PG, the whole offensive flow is then affected and your team struggles on offense. That's what made Payton' defense so valuable.



I'd rather have Payton's 25/10 series with 40 minutes of hard defense rather than Nash's 30/12 with him being a defensive liability for 40 minutes any day. And so would most. I mean, I wonder how much better Payton could've played offense if he didn't waste all his energy on defense. He played his heart out on defense and offense. And if you've played any sport, you know how much your stamina/energy on offense and defense matters for you to play them better. It's actually quite amazing what he was able to do 40 mintues a night.

[QUOTE=Teanett]i don't know about you but to me and most people
[B]26 ppg is still dominating.[/B]
it's not up to jordan's standards but far from being neutralized.
if a player scores 26 on you, it's still an ass-whoopin', now it's not as bad as
he whooped john starks, but it's still an ass-whoopin'.
just because jordan whooped his ass doesn't mean it's not an ass-whoopin'.
imagine jerry stackhouse layin' 26 on the glove. what would the reaction be like? [I]payton is stackhouse's biaatch![/I][/QUOTE]
:roll:

Are you for real? So 26ppg on 39% with not doing much of else (less than 5reb and ast as many as Tos) is dominating? :oldlol:

[QUOTE=magnax1]No, he's really not under rated, and his impact wasn't near as great as most other all time great point guards. In fact I'd take Rose, Deron and CP3 over him in his peak, no questions asked. For the amount the guy needed the ball he produced very little on offense, was inconsistent, and shot a frustrating amount of 3 pointers for how average a shooter he was. He wasn't very good at getting his team mates involved, and he really clashed with pretty much all his coaches, and didn't get along with quite a few of his team mates.
He had the defense to make up for his rather mediocre offense, and he is probably a top 5-10 all time point guard, but he's not under rated, and he's not really comparable to the guys that he is often times compared to. Like Kidd, or Nash.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
Sorry I'm not good at directing sarcasm

[QUOTE=GP_20]This is a ridiculous statement. How do you measure defensive impact? How about how good your team plays defense?
[/QUOTE]

i said "i believe". it's my opinion.
who led the league in steals during the play-offs?
bulls played better defense than the sonics.
so twist it how you like it.
you like payton that year, i like pippen, even knowing that big men have more impact on defense so it really should have been robinson, hakeem or motumbo.

[QUOTE=GP_20]:roll:

Are you for real? So 26ppg on 39% with not doing much of else (less than 5reb and ast as many as Tos) is dominating? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

yes, because the bulls won.

[QUOTE=keep-itreal]What was Gary Payton offense like ? Was he a good shooter,(mid-range, 3pt) or was he a slasher like d-rose?[/QUOTE]

He could do it all. He is a Top 3 Post PG of All-Time. At 6'4, excellent in the post and could score at will. Had many moves in the post and his size enabled him to be very good at scoring down low.

Then he was also called the "Lay-Up" king. Not that great at drawing contact and getting to the line, but just was an excellent driver and finisher. In fact, when Payton went to drive I was most confident that he would score. Excellent finisher and had a great 1st step.

Then he could shoot as well. He's not a Steve Nash or something, but still a good shooter. He led the leagues in 3s one year, and had a pretty reliable mid-range jump shot as well. Struggled with it early in his career but became a good jump shooter later on.


So there's not one thing Payton couldn't do on offense. Multiple ways of scoring making it hard for any one guarding him.

[QUOTE=GP_20]:roll:
Sorry I'm not good at directing sarcasm[/QUOTE]
Exactly what out of that is even arguable? He's definitely not a top 5 pg compared to Stockton, Magic, Oscar, Cousy and Isiah. He definitely isn't near as good on offense as other all time great PGs. He never got along with team mates or coaches. The only thing that is arguable is Nash and Kidd.
I'm sorry, I forgot how you over simplify things and ignore reality to prop up your favorite player.

[QUOTE=Teanett]i said "i believe". it's my opinion.
who led the league in steals during the play-offs?
bulls played better defense than the sonics.
so twist it how you like it.
you like payton that year, i like pippen, even knowing that big men have more impact on defense so it really should have been robinson, hakeem or motumbo.[/QUOTE]

The Bulls had Pippen, Jordan, and Rodman in their primes. I hope they played better defense than Payton's defensive team. And even then the difference was just #1 and #2. Also, it helps a lot to have great defenders aroudn you. Payton never got that luxury.

Once again, you say all those centers had more defensive impact in 96. Then why did their team defenses play worse? Payton didn't have a Rodman or Jordan helping him either. Or any other All-Defensive team member. He had as much help as say Dikembe did. Yet Payton's team played better defense.

And this is just team defense, which should be a Center's main advantage over a guard. Yet Payton overcomes this by leading his defenses to status better than any center in the league. Then when you go down to individual defense, I guarantee you Payton guarded his player individually better than anyone in the league.

[QUOTE=magnax1]Exactly what out of that is even arguable? He's definitely not a top 5 pg compared to Stockton, Magic, Oscar, Cousy and Isiah. He definitely isn't near as good on offense as other all time great PGs. He never got along with team mates or coaches. The only thing that is arguable is Nash and Kidd.
I'm sorry, I forgot how you over simplify things and ignore reality to prop up your favorite player.[/QUOTE]

Career-wise he might arguably be below them. But prime wise, he is a Top 3 PG All-Time.