Hall of fame centers in the 60's vs team defenses in the early 00's

lol at getting negative repped for the above post three minutes after I'd posted it. I don't see what was the point in bringing back "reps" in the first place.

What kind of defenses did Wilt face in his NBA career?

[url]http://biography.jrank.org/pages/233...lain-Wilt.html[/url]


Quote:
Several of the rules of college basketball had to be changed as a result of Chamberlain's talents, which simply dwarfed those of previous players. [B]Opposing players double-and triple-teamed him and played a slowed-down game rather than attempt to confront Chamberlain's offensive skills head-on.[/B] These techniques helped the University of North Carolina defeat Kansas 54-53 in triple overtime in the 1957 championship game.

Such tactics also frustrated the rapidly developing Chamberlain, who startled the basketball world by turning professional rather than returning to Kansas for his senior year. NBA rules forbade him from joining the league until the year in which he would have graduated from college, so Chamberlain played for the razzle-dazzle touring professional team the Harlem Globetrotters during the 1958-59 season. He joined the Philadelphia Warriors in 1959, having already collected a large bonus for signing.

Individual Triumphs in NBA
Chamberlain was an NBA star from the beginning, leading the league in scoring and rebounding, and taking home honors not only for Rookie of the Year but also for Most Valuable Player. [B]Frustrated by defensive tactics similar to those he had faced in college, and by what he considered biased officiating, he threatened to leave the league and return to the Globetrotters in 1960. But he did not follow through on his threat, and soon learned to outmaneuver his tormentors through sheer size, speed, and skill[/B].






[url]http://www.nba.com/home/history/lege...ain/index.html[/url]


Quote:
In Chamberlain's first year, and for several years afterward, opposing teams simply didn't know how to handle him. [B]Tom Heinsohn, the great Celtics forward who later became a coach and broadcaster, said Boston was one of the first clubs to apply a team-defense concept to stop Chamberlain[/B]. "We went for his weakness," Heinsohn told the Philadelphia Daily News in 1991, "tried to send him to the foul line, and in doing that he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever. [B]I hear people today talk about hard fouls. Half the fouls against him were hard fouls[/B]."





[url]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...940232,00.html[/url]


Quote:
He stood there, just to the right of the basket, a placid. 7-ft. 1 1/16-in, giant watching impassively as his teammates maneuvered the ball in backcourt. [B]The New York Knickerbockers tried to box him in; they clutched at his jersey, leaned against his chest, stepped on his toes. Then Wilt Chamberlain came alive[/B]. With the aplomb of a cop palming an apple, he reached out one massive hand and plucked the basketball out of the air. Spinning violently, he ripped clear of the elbowing surge, took a step toward the basket and jumped. For an instant, he seemed suspended in midair, his head on a level with the 10-ft.-high basket. Slowly, gently, the ball dribbled off his fingertips, through the net, and the San Francisco Warriors went on to a 142-134 victory. New York Coach Ed Donovan sadly shook his head. [B]"He's phenomenal." he sighed. "How does anyone stop Wilt Chamberlain[/B]?"





[url]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...940232,00.html[/url]


Quote:
Most basketball stars have one great talent: Russell's is defense, Elgin Baylor's is shooting, Bob Cousy's is setting up plays and passing. [B]Chamberlain does almost everything, better than anyone else.[/B] He is the pros' fiercest rebounder, and his shooting repertory includes such inimitable specialties as the "Dipper Dunk" (in which he simply stretches up and lays the ball in the basket), the "Stuff Shot" (in which he jumps up and rams the ball through the net from above), and the [B]"Fadeaway Jump"—a delicate, marvelously coordinated push shot from 15 ft. away that defensive men literally cannot block without fouling[/B].





[url]http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html[/url]


Quote:
[Carl Braun said] "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."

"[B]Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then[/B]."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70




[url]http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html[/url]


Quote:
"[B]I would talk to Wilt about all the players pounding on him. Sometimes, he said he didn't notice it--he was so strong[/B]. [B]But I also believe that there were two sets of rules. By that, I mean because Wilt was so strong, the officials let the man guarding him get away with more--almost trying to equalize the game[/B]. I also believe that Wilt just took it because he didn't want to get thrown out, and because ithad always been like that with him. But I'd watch it and I'd get mad. It takes me a while to get my temper going, but when it does--look out. I'd see what the other players were doing to Wilt and what the officials were allowing, and I'd get more upset than if it were happening to me. So I jumped in there. It wasn't that Wilt couldn't defend himself. [B]If he ever got really hot, he'd kill people, so he let things pass. But I didn't have to worry about that. I was strong for my size, but I was not about to do anything like the kind of damage would[/B]."
--Al Attles, Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 242




[url]http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html[/url]


Quote:
"People lose sight of the fact that Wilt was a 440 champion, a guy with great coordination.[B] He also was so strong that the double-teaming defenses used today wouldn't bother him[/B]."
--Wayne Embry (GM for the Cleveland Cavaliers), Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 327




Continued...

Continuing...

[url]http://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2803-...mmy-4000-words[/url]


Quote:
[B]At 7’ 2” tall and weighing at least 250 pounds, Wilt may have been the strongest man in the league as a rookie. Despite his size, Wilt’s introduction to physical aggression in the NBA was far worse than what confronted Bill Russell. Wilt was grabbed, held, jostled and manhandled worse than any player in the short history of the league[/B].

It went beyond rookie hazing: it was a deliberate attempt to stop the taller, stronger player by frustration and intimidation. [B]Wilt was constantly double- and triple-teamed, hacked and whacked and smacked as opponents tried to knock the ball out of his hands. The tactics were all the more effective because of Wilt’s notoriously poor foul shooting. Even the referees contributed to the harassment, letting opposing players get away with often egregious fouls, but calling Wilt for the slightest infraction[/B].

Wilt’s coach and teammates encouraged Chamberlain to fight back, but unwisely the Big Dipper declined. A week after his first game against Bill Russell and the Celtics, Philadelphia played the St. Louis Hawks. The Hawks center, Clyde Lovellette, was one of the dirtiest players in the league, almost as tall as Wilt, and much thicker. At one point in the game, as Wilt and Clyde ran past each other, [B]Clyde hit Wilt in the jaw with a vicious elbow that drove two of Wilt’s lower front teeth up and into the roof of his mouth. Wilt shook it off and continued playing[/B].

Because Philadelphia was scheduled to travel immediately after the game, Wilt did not even have time to see a doctor. [B]His whole face swelled, an infection set in, yet the following night Wilt played the entire game wearing a large mask on his face. He played the next night, as well, despite a swollen mouth and an aching head, and being unable to eat solid food[/B].

[B]In that third game in as many nights, Wilt again was hit in the mouth, and, was finally examined by a doctor. The infection in his mouth was so severe he had blood poisoning and was rushed to the hospital for emergency dental surgery. He lost four teeth and missed three games[/B].

[B]As soon as he returned, the rough play and hard fouling continued[/B]. Midway through the season, in a game against St. Louis, Wilt got so angry at Bob Pettit’s pushing and shoving that he elbowed Pettit in the face, knocking him out of the game. Unlike Bill’s knockout of Ray Felix, it wasn’t enough. [B]It didn’t change the way Wilt was treated because, for every team but the Celtics, the only way to slow him down was to foul him[/B].

The Celtics didn’t have to double- or triple-team Wilt because of Bill Russell’s defense. Bill’s strategy was to deny the entry pass; if Wilt did get the ball down low, Bill stayed between him and the basket, tried to take away the lane; if Wilt got the shot off, Bill would block it if he could and always made certain to box Wilt out. Bill played Wilt clean, didn’t hack or whack, did nothing to antagonize the big man.

[B]That assignment was given to Tommy Heinsohn. When Wilt got the ball in the low post, Tommy was detailed to stop him - punch the ball, grab his arms, and, if nothing else worked, tackle the giant[/B]. Tommy’s courage was legendary, as he proved repeatedly over the course of his career, but putting him up against Wilt seemed a horrendous mismatch. Tommy was a full head shorter and fifty pounds lighter and [B]wasn’t the only one who considered Wilt the strongest man in the world[/B], once calling him “King Kong in sneakers”.




[url]http://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2803-...mmy-4000-words[/url]


Quote:
Wilt was lucky he didn’t break any bones in his hand, but his knuckle joints were severely bruised and, by halftime, his hand was badly swollen. He continued playing but had trouble handling the ball. It was a sloppily played game by both teams and the Warriors pulled out the win.

Wilt took the floor for Game Three with his hand wrapped in a bandage. It was so swollen and sore he could hardly move his fingers. He played poorly. At one point, he pulled down a rebound, turned to look up court, and Tommy was there. Tommy punched at the ball, missed, and hit Wilt hard on the injured hand. Wilt danced around in serious pain. Tommy was called for the foul.

Wilt stood at the foul line and sent a murderous glare Tommy’s way. Tommy didn’t grab a photographer’s stool for protection. He didn’t even run out of the stadium the way he did when Red chased him over the exploding cigar. Tommy stood his ground, or, in this case, parquet, and fearlessly stared back. In their glaring contest, Wilt turned away first.

By the time his coach, Neil Johnston, removed him in the third quarter of Game Three, Wilt had only scored twelve points, his hand was practically useless, and the Celtics were running away with the game. The hand bothered him again in Game Four, which the Celtics took for a 3-1 series lead.

In Game Five in the sold-out Garden, [B]Wilt shrugged off the swollen hand and turned in the kind of performance that Bill Russell had feared: he scored fifty points and led his team to an easy 128-107 win. The result shocked the Celtics and gave the momentum back to Philadelphia[/B].




[url]http://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2803-...mmy-4000-words[/url]


Quote:
K.C. Jones, arguably the savviest team player in the history of the game, was also a rookie that year and had a front row seat for Bill and Wilt's encounters. [B]"Bill didn't do it all. We just used TEAM[/B]. That's a word that's thrown out all over the place, but the total personification of team is what we used. We used everybody's ability, and everybody had a role out there that was natural for them. Whoever was guarding the ball had four guys back there helping his ass out. The whole is bigger than the sum of the parts; we wrote that without knowing the phrase. We knew how good we were. And we knew how to use one another because we knew one another. The most important part of it was the understanding that we had of each teammate - what this guy likes and what that guy doesn't like and who can't play defense and who shoots the ball well. We used all that. If a guy couldn't play defense, we were there, picking him up. Let each guy do what he does best."

Years later, Wilt proved that he never quite understood what K.C. was saying. [B]"What people don't realize," he opined, "is that it was never Wilt versus Russell. I never got, or needed, any help guarding Russell. But for Russ, it was always one or two other guys helping him. He never guarded me straight up[/B]."

There is so much exaggeration in there that just quick glances at footage can prove untrue....

No doubt wilt was a beast and all...

But there is no footage on the NBa level suggesting he was always doubled and sure not tripled.

I have seen literally hours of footage on him between GSL, dvds, games, and highlights...

He is not doubled all the time. At all. And Russell guarded him straight up plenty of times. You can just youtube wilt vs russell and find Russell guarding him one on one. Im not sure why they or he would even say such a thing as this:

"But for Russ, it was always one or two other guys helping him. He never guarded me straight up.""

Its just factually inaccurate and can be proven so.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]There is so much exaggeration in there that just quick glances at footage can prove untrue....

No doubt wilt was a beast and all...

But there is no footage on the NBa level suggesting he was always doubled and sure not tripled.

I have seen literally hours of footage on him between GSL, dvds, games, and highlights...

He is not doubled all the time. At all. And Russell guarded him straight up plenty of times. You can just youtube wilt vs russell and find Russell guarding him one on one. Im not sure why they or he would even say such a thing as this:

"But for Russ, it was always one or two other guys helping him. He never guarded me straight up.""

Its just factually inaccurate and can be proven so.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]K.C. Jones, arguably the savviest team player in the history of the game, was also a rookie that year and had a front row seat for Bill and Wilt's encounters. "[B]Bill didn't do it all. We just used TEAM[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][B]Tom Heinsohn, the great Celtics forward who later became a coach and broadcaster, said Boston was one of the first clubs to apply a team-defense concept to stop Chamberlain[/B]. "We went for his weakness," Heinsohn told the Philadelphia Daily News in 1991, "tried to send him to the foul line, and in doing that he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever. I hear people today talk about hard fouls. Half the fouls against him were hard fouls[/QUOTE]

KC Jones and Tom Heinsohn...

Ahhhh, the good ol' imaginary time machine, that we use to compare eras.

Let's use our time machine for other sports as well.

1980s defenses in the NHL were far less complex than they are today. Let's pluck early Gretzky out of that era and put him in today's game. Does he even get 40 goals? Let's trivialize his 200 point and 90 goal seasons because the era was weaker.

In the 1920s, baseball players weren't paid that much, so many players had to work other jobs in the off season. Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb were playing against carpenters, farmers, and plumbers. On top of that the color barrier was not broken yet, so they never played against any black athletes. The stadiums were also more expansive, so let's trivialize Cobb's .367 career average and chalk it up to the bigger parks that he could spray the ball around. Pitchers also weren't as good. How many 95 mph fastballs do you think Ruth saw? He used a 48 oz bat. He could never get the bat speed with that to hit a 95 mph fastball with a bat that size. The porch in RF of Yankee Stadium was also short; like under 300 feet I believe. So let's trivialize all his numbers too.

They've changed the rules in the NFL to make passing much much easier. No more bumping the receivers over the middle, and the CBs can barely touch them at all. We have 3 guys who are pace this year to shatter Dan Marino's 5084 yard passing record. Let's pluck Marino out of 1984, and put him in today's game. What does he get? 6000 yards? 6500?

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Ahhhh, the good ol' imaginary time machine, that we use to compare eras.

Let's use our time machine for other sports as well.

1980s defenses in the NHL were far less complex than they are today. Let's pluck early Gretzky out of that era and put him in today's game. Does he even get 40 goals? Let's trivialize his 200 point and 90 goal seasons because the era was weaker.

In the 1920s, baseball players weren't paid that much, so many players had to work other jobs in the off season. Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb were playing against carpenters, farmers, and plumbers. On top of that the color barrier was not broken yet, so they never played against any black athletes. The stadiums were also more expansive, so let's trivialize Cobb's .367 career average and chalk it up to the bigger parks that he could spray the ball around. Pitchers also weren't as good. How many 95 mph fastballs do you think Ruth saw? He used a 48 oz bat. He could never get the bat speed with that to hit a 95 mph fastball with a bat that size. The porch in RF of Yankee Stadium was also short; like under 300 feet I believe. So let's trivialize all his numbers too.

They've changed the rules in the NFL to make passing much much easier. No more bumping the receivers over the middle, and the CBs can barely touch them at all. We have 3 guys who are pace this year to shatter Dan Marino's 5084 yard passing record. Let's pluck Marino out of 1984, and put him in today's game. What does he get? 6000 yards? 6500?[/QUOTE]

I know this is off-topic, but something to consider when comparing baseball players...

Ted Williams. In Williams' rookie year, in 1939, he batted .327 with 31 HRs. Jimmy Foxx batted .360 with 35 HRs. The year before, Foxx batted .349 with 50 HRs. Going back a little farther, in 1932, Foxx batted .364 with 58 HRs. That same year, an over-the-hill Babe Ruth batted .341 with 41 HRs.

So, here was a declining Ruth batting .341 with 41 HRs, in 1932, and in a few years, in 1939, Williams would bat .327 with 31 HRs against many of the same pitchers that Ruth faced a few years before.

Ok, in 1941 Williams hit .406 with 37 HRs. This was against pre-integration pitching. Now, how about 1957? That year Williams, at age 38, hit .388, with 38 HRs (in 420 ABs.) That came well AFTER integration. What changed?

In that same 1957 season, Hank Aaron would slug 44 HRs. In 1955 Willie Mays slugged 51 HRs. In 1956 Mickey Mantle won the triple crown, including 52 HRs.

In his least season, in 1960, Williams hit .316, with 29 HRs in 310 ABs. In 1965 Mays hit 52 HRs. In 1973 Aaron his 40 HRs in only 392 ABs.

You can see where I am going with this. These "bridges" faced many of the same pitchers that their great peers faced just a few years before. And the greats that came after them, would do the same.

And, Mantle probably hit the longest HRs EVER. Multiple times!

Nolan Ryan was clocked at 101 MPH, on a SLOW gun in a game in the eighth inning, and after throwing 162 pitches, in 1973. On his LAST pitch, at age 46, and on an injured arm, he was clocked at 98 MPH.

These "bridges" fill in the gaps quite well. You could make an argument that a prime Ruth would probably be among the best players in TODAY's era.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I know this is off-topic, but something to consider when comparing baseball players...

Ted Williams. In Williams' rookie year, in 1939, he batted .327 with 31 HRs. Jimmy Foxx batted .360 with 35 HRs. The year before, Foxx batted .349 with 50 HRs. Going back a little farther, in 1932, Foxx batted .364 with 58 HRs. That same year, an over-the-hill Babe Ruth batted .341 with 41 HRs.

So, here was a declining Ruth batting .341 with 41 HRs, in 1932, and in a few years, in 1939, Williams would bat .327 with 31 HRs against many of the same pitchers that Ruth faced a few years before.

Ok, in 1941 Williams hit .406 with 37 HRs. This was against pre-integration pitching. Now, how about 1957? That year Williams, at age 38, hit .388, with 38 HRs (in 420 ABs.) That came well AFTER integration. What changed?

In that same 1957 season, Hank Aaron would slug 44 HRs. In 1955 Willie Mays slugged 51 HRs. In 1956 Mickey Mantle won the triple crown, including 52 HRs.

In his least season, in 1960, Williams hit .316, with 29 HRs in 310 ABs. In 1965 Mays hit 52 HRs. In 1973 Aaron his 40 HRs in only 392 ABs.

You can see where I am going with this. These "bridges" faced many of the same pitchers that their great peers faced just a few years before. And the greats that came after them, would do the same.

And, Mantle probably hit the longest HRs EVER. Multiple times!

Nolan Ryan was clocked at 101 MPH, on a SLOW gun in a game in the eighth inning, and after throwing 162 pitches, in 1973. On his LAST pitch, at age 46, and on an injured arm, he was clocked at 98 MPH.

These "bridges" fill in the gaps quite well. You could make an argument that a prime Ruth would probably be among the best players in TODAY's era.[/QUOTE]


But, but, but...athletes from previous eras are always worse than today's athletes. It says so in the ISH Bible.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]There is so much exaggeration in there that just quick glances at footage can prove untrue....

No doubt wilt was a beast and all...

But there is no footage on the NBa level suggesting he was always doubled and sure not tripled.

I have seen literally hours of footage on him between GSL, dvds, games, and highlights...

He is not doubled all the time. At all. And Russell guarded him straight up plenty of times. You can just youtube wilt vs russell and find Russell guarding him one on one. Im not sure why they or he would even say such a thing as this:

"But for Russ, it was always one or two other guys helping him. He never guarded me straight up.""

Its just factually inaccurate and can be proven so.[/QUOTE]

I actually find it rather interesting. It's an advantage that comes with actually being around at the time and hearing what people say, rather than coming after the fact and trying to come up with stuff to fit an agenda.

Because I specifically remember Wilt saying the following in 1985:

[QUOTE]"The only team that played me with one man was the Celtics with Russell. They did it because Russell was the game's supreme defensive ace."[/QUOTE]

This is straight from Wilt's own mouth, a direct quote verbatim, word-for-word. So with you having said this, I just find it interesting having been an observer throughout the years, watching people change their stories, and inexplicably facts just... change, despite no games being played since then, nothing new happening.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]But, but, but...athletes from previous eras are always worse than today's athletes. It says so in the ISH Bible.[/QUOTE]

I blindly believed that a few years ago myself. I remember reading an article in 1984 comparing the '84 Nebraska Cornhuskers with their '71 peers. The average '84 player was much bigger and considerably faster. And Ara Parseghian claimed that the '88 Irish would have beaten his '66 team by 40 points.

Of course, football is a much different game than baseball and basketball. It is far more physical. And, yes, today's players are much bigger, and on average, faster. My god, we have QBs that are 260+ lbs, and other QBs that can run a 4.3 40.

BUT, having REALLY studied that...there were MANY players in previous eras who were FASTER than the FASTEST player in TODAY's NFL. Players like Deion, Hershel, Bo, and OJ would be faster than any player today. And how about Darrell Green? The man was winning "the NFL Fastest Man" competitions when he was approaching 40 years old. Hell, last year he turned 50, and then went out an ran a 4.43! And, of course, there was "Bullet" Bob Hayes, who ran a 10.06 100 meters (on a torn up track and with borrowed shoes) back in 1964. There has never been a LEGITIMATE NFL player since, who had run a faster time. BTW, Hayes averaged 42 yards per play on his 76 career TDs!

Players like Havlicek, Barry, Dr. J, Moses, and Gilmore, ...all "bridges"...give us a much better indication of just how good the players of THEIR eras really were. Of course, THE greatest "bridge" in NBA history, was Kareem. He came into the league in 1969, and retired after the '89 season. His career nearly spanned FOUR decades. He faced players like Wilt and Thurmond, then Moses, and later, Ewing and Hakeem. And amazingly, he actually fared much better against his peers, in his late 30's, than he did in his prime. And, he faced many of the same centers that a PRIME Wilt faced...and he never came close to the domination that Wilt overwhelmed them with.

[QUOTE]KC Jones and Tom Heinsohn...[/QUOTE]

And...then I have reality. which can be proven....showing Russell one on one with wilt many many many many many many many times. So...what now?

You gonna pretend to not have seen what im talking about? There are many famous individual clips of them one on one. The team flat out does NOT collapse on him on the catch and double him. this isnt my opinion.

Its...in virtually every piece of footage availiable.

[QUOTE=jlauber][QUOTE=Sarcastic]But, but, but...athletes from previous eras are always worse than today's athletes. It says so in the ISH Bible.[/QUOTE]

I blindly believed that a few years ago myself. [/QUOTE]

People need to stop "blindly" believing anything. Take the blinders from their eyes. It's exasperating how many people just "blindly" believe something. It seems precious few people are capable of forming a belief through critical thinking and careful consideration. A "majority" of beliefs are ignorant.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]I actually find it rather interesting. It's an advantage that comes with actually being around at the time and hearing what people say, rather than coming after the fact and trying to come up with stuff to fit an agenda.

Because I specifically remember Wilt saying the following in 1985:



This is straight from Wilt's own mouth, a direct quote verbatim, word-for-word. So with you having said this, I just find it interesting having been an observer throughout the years, watching people change their stories, and inexplicably facts just... change, despite no games being played since then, nothing new happening.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=173M7ApCNKw&feature=related[/url]

Listen at the 5 minute mark...

Really..

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5jV7WImytM[/url]

Celtics vs warriors. Wilt not being doubled.

go to 3 minutes when Wilt starts getting theb all.

You seeing some swarm of guys on him?

5:50. Wilt gets it...nobody comes. he dribbles with Russell then fades away.

Next time down....6.30. Wilt gets it. One on one. passes it. but no help comes.

At 7 Wilt rebounds it and goes right back up....nobody runs to help Russell. Russell actually kinda blocked it but it goes in.

7.20...Wilts gets it. Total one on one. travels.

Just looking at what is there..

We can prove some of those statements untrue.

This:

[QUOTE]"But for Russ, it was always one or two other guys helping him. He never guarded me straight up.""[/QUOTE]

Is just factually....wrong. It is not the truth.

[QUOTE=jlauber][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=173M7ApCNKw&feature=related[/url]

Listen at the 5 minute mark...[/QUOTE]

Didn't click the link (unlike the majority of people here, I don't need to go on youtube), but I notice you conspicuously didn't address the words that Wilt himself uttered.