ISH's #7 Player of Alltime

[QUOTE=Inception28]Update on the votes

Duncan - 7
Shaq - 6
Hakeem - 4
Oscar - 1[/QUOTE]

Im surprised Kobe has not even been voted once yet

Shaq

Sha Qweel O'Neal

elgin baylor

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234] In terms of level of play? I wouldn't argue, but I think his offensive game was even better in '95, but his defense was better in '94. His best season from start to finish factoring in the championship was '94, but the highest level I've seen him play at was probably the '95 playoffs. But he was pretty much just as good as the championship years in '93.[/QUOTE]
There is a difference between having a better season and being a better player. I see no difference as far as what Hakeem was capable of doing in 94 that he wouldn't have been able to do in 95 and vice versa.

It's like this...

Kevin Garnett was never a better player than Tim Duncan was before the 07-08 season. He was never the better player. However, Garnett did have a better season than Duncan did in '03-'04, but I don't think he was a better overall player than him. Because what really changed in Duncan's game from 02-03 to 03-04?? Pretty much nothing other than being less successful.

It's the same thing in today's era.

If we were to talk about the 2010-2011 season and who was the best then? It would be Dirk easily. However, I don't think he is the best overall player though. He is just too one-dimensional, I'll take Howard, Wade, and maybe even Lebron over Dirk as far as being the better overall player.

And with this.....

[QUOTE]
Well, I'm not sure because of how well Kobe played the first 2+ months of the '09-'10 season before injuries. He was scoring at will in the post and had to be doubled. He was averaging 30/6/5, 48 FG%, 57 TS%, slowed down due to injuries, but then was back playing some of the best ball of his career after getting his knee drained late in the OKC series. He killed Utah and Phoenix. The Phoenix series was arguably his best ever.[/QUOTE]

Kobe had the best season in 09-10 including Lebron and Wade but he wasn't a better overall player than either Lebron or Wade then. I would say Lebron was a better overall player in 09-10 than he was in 08-09, but Lebron had a better season in 08-09.

That being said, you will remembered more for being best that season than being the best overall player then.

[QUOTE]Agreed, in particular, stats across eras are very difficult to compare. Stats even in the same era can reflect the situation more as well.[/QUOTE]
Well Wilt does have the higher PER and that pretty much adjusts minutes and pace and such I believe. Wilt is 2nd in PER of all-time only to be behind Michael Jordan.


[QUOTE]
Yeah, MVPs are the worst way to go, imo because it's a very subjective award, particularly when comparing media voted MVPs to MVPs voted by players in the earlier years. The criteria was also much different back then(Moses winning 2 of his on teams that didn't win 50 games, or Kareem winning on a sub .500 team, Walton winning while playing just 58 games ect. would never happen now).[/QUOTE]
It's the same reason why I don't put heavy emphasis in All-NBA Teams because it is just other people's opinions.

Kenny Smith, Hakeem's teammate said Kobe is more dominant than Hakeem
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQkYxfenDHA[/url]
this was in 2009

[QUOTE=inclinerator]elgin baylor[/QUOTE]

I'll add him in the candidates list for the next voting okay.

Im voting for Shaq on this one

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Kenny Smith, Hakeem's teammate said Kobe is more dominant than Hakeem
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQkYxfenDHA[/url]
this was in 2009[/QUOTE]
Robert Horry, Hakeem's teammate said Hakeem was better than both Shaq and Duncan while playing next to those guys.

Mario Elie, Hakeem's teammate said Hakeem was the best he played with and he won a championship with prime Duncan.

So if you're going to vote Kobe over Hakeem based on that, be consistent and vote Hakeem over those two as well.

Shaq

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]Robert Horry, Hakeem's teammate said Hakeem was better than both Shaq and Duncan while playing next to those guys.

Mario Elie, Hakeem's teammate said Hakeem was the best he played with and he won a championship with prime Duncan.

So if you're going to vote Kobe over Hakeem based on that, be consistent and vote Hakeem over those two as well.[/QUOTE]

I think Hakeem is better than Duncan for sure, but not Shaq
Even though we all know what happened in '95, but that was not a peak Shaq

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]I think Hakeem is better than Duncan for sure, but not Shaq
Even though we all know what happened in '95, but that was not a peak Shaq[/QUOTE]
You could argue that Hakeem in '93-'95 was better than peak Shaq.

Reasons would be as simple as Hakeem wasn't a liability in the FT line and had practically no defensive weaknesses while Shaq was practically a liability in the FT line and couldn't defend the pick n roll.

That being said this is how I judge players...

Prime > Longevity > Peak

Prime determines who you are as a player, not your peak. Longevity would be next so people can tell how long you sustained your dominance and success. Peak means the least because it shows the least.

[QUOTE=Inception28]You could argue that Hakeem in '93-'95 was better than peak Shaq.

Reasons would be as simple as Hakeem wasn't a liability in the FT line and had practically no defensive weaknesses while Shaq was practically a liability in the FT line and couldn't defend the pick n roll.

That being said this is how I judge players...

Prime > Longevity > Peak

Prime determines who you are as a player, not your peak. Longevity would be next so people can tell how long you sustained your dominance and success. Peak means the least because it shows the least.[/QUOTE]

I agree with all that you said
but Shaq offensively is too much to ignore, and you can also say that Hakeem never got to play with Kobe so its close

[QUOTE=Inception28]There is a difference between having a better season and being a better player. I see no difference as far as what Hakeem was capable of doing in 94 that he wouldn't have been able to do in 95 and vice versa.[/QUOTE]

Well, I don't know, I think players can just play better in certain aspects of the game certain seasons depending on their growth as a player, focus on that aspect, age/athleticism/injuries ect. I do think player's capabilities can vary on a season to season basis.

[QUOTE]It's like this...

Kevin Garnett was never a better player than Tim Duncan was before the 07-08 season. He was never the better player. However, Garnett did have a better season than Duncan did in '03-'04, but I don't think he was a better overall player than him. Because what really changed in Duncan's game from 02-03 to 03-04?? Pretty much nothing other than being less successful.[/QUOTE]

Well, Duncan's free throw problems arose again in '04 and he had more injuries which it seemed was the start of minutes dropping and maybe aging. other than that, he didn't seem different watching him play. But going from 71% at the line to 59.9% matters when talking about effectiveness as well as durability.

It's the same thing in today's era.

[QUOTE]Kobe had the best season in 09-10 including Lebron and Wade but he wasn't a better overall player than either Lebron or Wade then. I would say Lebron was a better overall player in 09-10 than he was in 08-09, but Lebron had a better season in 08-09.[/QUOTE]

Wade may have been a better player than Kobe in '09(not sure about that, it could be a toss up), but his level of play fell off in 2010. Part of that was that he seemed lazier for the first few months(Pat Riley called him out on this), but his jump shot which had been good in 2009 fell off a lot throughout 2010 which made him less dominant, imo.

Lebron looked like the same player to me in 2009 and 2010 as far as what he was capable of, maybe he was a slightly better shooter in 2010, but slightly quicker and better defensively in 2010. So a virtual toss up for overall ability, but I agree that his '09 season was better.

[QUOTE]Well Wilt does have the higher PER and that pretty much adjusts minutes and pace and such I believe. Wilt is 2nd in PER of all-time only to be behind Michael Jordan.[/QUOTE]

I do use stats, but I've never been an advanced stats/formula guy. PER isn't horrible like win shares, imo, but I've never found PER useful.

The #7 spot is probally the toughest spot in the top 10 IMO
Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, and Duncan all can go there