3 more MVP's and another title as the #1 and he'd be in the conversation. Not the GOAT, but in the convo.
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3 more MVP's and another title as the #1 and he'd be in the conversation. Not the GOAT, but in the convo.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]3 more MVP's and another title as the #1 and he'd be in the conversation. Not the GOAT, but in the convo.[/QUOTE]
Eh, for me it's more of an attitudinal adjustment than simply more accolades or more stats. If his attitude about certain things had been different, then everything else would have come along with it. If his attitude had been different, then he could have gotten more MVPs and more titles "as the #1 option." For me at least, he would have needed to change the underlying problem.
[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Eh, for me it's more of an attitudinal adjustment than simply more accolades or more stats. If his attitude about certain things had been different, then everything else would have come along with it. If his attitude had been different, then he could have gotten more MVPs and more titles "as the #1 option." For me at least, he would have needed to change the underlying problem.[/QUOTE]
Yea.. He's actually extremely lucky to have won as much as he didin the first place. 2000 and 2002 were pretty lucky. 2006 was very lucky. Although I guess you could say he could have won it in 03 and 04.
One ring and 2 points on his scoring Average.
He would have the extra ring if Kobe didnt ballhog in 2004.
He would easily have the 2 points(25.69 ppg) if he practiced more from the FT line.
[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]:confusedshrug:
I find it ironic, considering the fact that I have been lumped into the category of "Wilt haters" on this very board, and now I'm "a huge Wilt fan."
:oldlol:
Funny.
Wilt Chamberlain is one of the greatest players ever to play the game. As a long-time basketball fan and student of basketball history, I respect that. I have posted when certain things have been said because I dislike falsehoods being stated, but for the most part, there are people like jlauber and PHILA to address most things Wilt-related. I am neutral. I have spoken for Wilt on certain occasions, and I've also spoken against him on certain occasions. I have no particular agenda either way, I just call it as I see it. I am now certain though, that you aren't in fact "familiar with my posts on RealGM and other forums."[/QUOTE]
Remember, Shaq's been his favorite player since he was 4 years old, cemented when he went to see Kazaam! at age 6...but everybody else is biased.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]3 more MVP's and another title as the #1 and he'd be in the conversation. Not the GOAT, but in the convo.[/QUOTE]
What does MVP's have to do with anything for Shaq? Anyone who watched him play knows he deserves a few more MVP awards than what he currently has, which is one.
So him not having extra MVP awards doesn't impact his legacy at all. You can't let an award voted on by media determine your ability to be considered in the discussion for GOAT when they pretty clearly got it wrong with regards to Shaq.
Shaq as a playoff performer based on Production/Intangibles and Performances is easily the 2nd greatest player of all time after Jordan.
lol at people thinking he needs more titles to be the GOAT.
if not for the failure of his teammates in 95 and the sabotage of Kobe in 04 he'd have 6 Rings and 5FMVP's.
His resume speaks for itself at this point.
Outside of Jordan no one can touch him as a playoff performer and his Prime and best 5 year stretch and 7 year stretch and 10 and 13 year stretch in the playoffs are superior to everyone besides Jordan.
From 94-06 There has only been maybe 1-2 playoff series where they were eliminated and he wasn't the best player in the series. I am talking 97 and 99.
Shaq and Jordan are the two greatest players ever.
[QUOTE]#1.
Jordan : Post Season - PER
Peak : 32
Top 5 : 30.16
Top 7 : 29.61
Top 10 : 28.89
Top 13 : 28.6
------------------------------------------------------------
#2.
Shaq : Post Season - PER
Peak : 31
Top 5 : 30
Top 7 : 29.56
Top 10 : 28.52
Top 13 : 26.55
14th to 16th Season (Final 3 Seasons) - 18.33[/QUOTE]
The lowest Shaq should ever be ranked without looking like a fool is #5.
[QUOTE=32Dayz]
Shaq and Jordan are the two greatest players ever.
[/QUOTE]
This seals it
[QUOTE=Doctor Rivers]This seals it[/QUOTE]
Thanks Doc, you always know best. :cheers:
This was on the way to be a good thread, but we let 32 dayz ruin it. Please ignore him, he is obviously trying to troll/argue or is an idiot. Either way he should be ignored.
To further my way point of view, imagine Shaq with Kobe's work ethic and his own personality. Or imagine Shaq with MJ or Magic or Bird or Russell's approach...WOW!
[QUOTE=Carbine]What does MVP's have to do with anything for Shaq? Anyone who watched him play knows he deserves a few more MVP awards than what he currently has, which is one.
So him not having extra MVP awards doesn't impact his legacy at all. You can't let an award voted on by media determine your ability to be considered in the discussion for GOAT when they pretty clearly got it wrong with regards to Shaq.[/QUOTE]
Err, no. You can say that about many great players. Unfortunately, to be ranked highly on the GOAT list, you need several MVP's.
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]:rant [/QUOTE]
No lets ignore people like you who cant property appreciate the greatness of Shaqs Career because you think he should have been better then he was.
:facepalm
If you cant handle facts that isnt my problem.
Shaq is a GOAT candidate with his current career and at the very worst a top 5 goat player.
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Not far. His peak puts him in the conversation because at his best he is arguably as good as any player has ever been.
However he is not someone I consider for the top spot for the following reasons...
1) [B]Wasted prime years[/B]. Being out of shape or not in harmony with his coaches/teammates cost him, that's not acceptable if a player of equal credentials/ability has set a higher standard as Jordan and Russell have for me. Both players took their teams as far as they could possibly go in every healthy full season they played.
2) [B]Inconsistent dominance bourne out of worth ethic[/B]. Shaq could have had a five or so year run as the insanely dominant player he was for 2000 and most of 2001 but first immaturity and second lack of discipline squelched that chance. Again Russell and Jordan never let those flaws arise and deter them.
3) [B]Hung on to long.[/B] This is a personal thing, but seeing 1989 Kareem or 1990whatever Moses or Toronto Raptor Hakeem is unsettling. Shaq post-Phoenix was a disaster. On occasion when a team dedicated their offense to his strengths he was efficient and effective, but otherwise he was a liability. That sucked. Russell and Jordan went out on top, even Wizard MJ was still a top 20-30 player in the league.
I love Shaq, I'll always take his side over Kobe and he may very well be the last GREAT center for a long, if not all-time. A player of his make-up would dominate in any era, physically he held a greater advantage over his peers than anyone in my opinion and only Wilt rivals him in that regard. I have often been tempted to rank him as high as fourth all-time, I struggle with him, Wilt and Kareem. He deserves to get the nod based on consistency during his peak, but those other guys were so much better for the rest of their primes and more importantly hold a defensive edge over Shaq that is more significant than any other distinction relevant to the conversation. At worst, Shaq is the ninth greatest player ever.[/QUOTE]
Agree with pretty much everything here. I rank Shaq higher than most, but don't think he's a legit candidate for best ever. I consider there to be 3 players who I can see why people who know about them can rank them number 1 without bias. And this is of course accounting for different criterias, but the 3 players who I see with a case are Jordan, Kareem and Russell. Unless you're going purely by peak, then I don't see Shaq's case.
[QUOTE=Odinn]If 1985-86 season would be Kareem's last season;
His career numbers;
35108 points (all-time scoring leader until 2002-12-18) / 16105 rebounds / 5248 asissts / 1025 steals / 2915 blocks / 2087 turnovers
26.4 ppg / 12.1 rpg / 4.0 apg / 1.0 spg / 2.9 bpg / 3.0 tpg / 0.562 fg% / 0.720 ft%
His playoff numbers;
4912 points / 2168 rebounds / 676 asissts / 161 steals / 393 blocks / 339 turnovers
27.3 ppg / 12.0 rpg / 3.8 apg / 1.2 spg / 2.8 bpg / 3.0 tpg / 0.541 fg% / 0.732 ft%
His accomplishments;
6x MVP (6.203 total MVP share, only 2 times left out top5)
2x FMVP
4x NBA Champion (in 1971 and 1980, clear-cut best player on a championship team and "arguably" best player in 1982 and 1985)
16x All-Star
10x All-NBA First Team
5x All-NBA Second Team
5x All-NBA Defensive First Team
6x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
NBA Rookie of The Year
3x NCAA Champion
3x NCAA MOP
Naismith College Player of the Year
In conclusion; his last 3 years only lowered his career averages. He still would have a legitimate case for GOAT if he was retired after 1985-86 season.[/QUOTE]
In 1985-86 season, Kareem was at Shaq's retirement age.
As for accomplishments; Kareem would have 4 rings, 2 as the man(clear cut) and 2 as the 1a or 1b and he would still have a case for goat. Shaq has 4 rings, 3 as the man. It's quite clos imo. But Shaq should have won more MVPs to be called GOAT. Kareem won 6 MVPs, Jordan and Russell 5, Wilt 4, Magic and Bird 3. Also he would have better numbers. At least; he had a very good chance to pass 30K points.
As for peaks; Shaq has a case for goat peak but Kareem and Jordan had greater peak than Shaq imo.
As for intangibles; Lack of intangibles... That was the Shaq's biggest problem.
[QUOTE=Odinn]As for peaks; Shaq has a case for goat peak but Kareem and Jordan had greater peak than Shaq imo.[/QUOTE]
I don't see Kareem's peak as being as good as Shaq's. During Kareem's peak individual seasons he was on average teams and never even made it to the finals. Kareem never had the devastating impact Shaq did and he certainly never inspired his teammates the way Shaq did when he was at his best. During Shaq's peak no one was on his level. There was always someone arguably as good or better than Kareem.