Wilt Chamberlian vs. Kobe Bryant

Here are ALL 35 of Wilt's "must-win" and "series clinching games in the post-season:

[QUOTE]Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points and 14 rebounds. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points and 31 rebounds. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points. Thurmond had 9 points in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.
[/QUOTE]

Furthermore...

[QUOTE]The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=jacobgoindum]they all sucked, great opposition...[/QUOTE]

Chamberlain played in 160 post-season games, and he faced a HOF starting center in 105 of them (and a multiple-all star in 26 more.)

All told, Chamberlain played against the likes of Reed, Bellamy, Embry, Lovellette, Elvin Hayes, Cowens, Lanier, McAdoo, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem...all in the HOF. And, he even more than held his own against 7-2 Artis Gilmore in the 71-72 ABA-NBA all-star game.

[QUOTE=jlauber]How many post-seasons did Howard grab over 40% of his team's rebounds, and as many as 47% of them.

How many rebounding titles did Howard win?

How many rebounding titles did Howard win by 5 rpg?

How many playoff series did Howard outrebound the second best rebounder in the league by 9 rpg?

How many games did Howard outrebound the second best rebounder in the league by a 55-19 margin?

I could go on, but Chamberlain was THE most dominant rebounder of all-time, AND, he ELEVATED his rebounding in the POST-SEASON.[/QUOTE]

rebounds

'62 warriors
warriors = 5939
wilt = 2052
% = 34.6

'08 magic
magic = 3445
dwight = 1161
% = 33.7

dwight averaged only 36.1 mpg compared to 48.5 mpg for wilt
:oldlol:

[QUOTE=jlauber]Read this...

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250076[/url][/QUOTE]

I've skimmed through many of your Wilt-related posts, and while the numbers are definitely impressive, and while you have opened my eyes in regards to many Wilt-related myths, I just can't shake the feeling that those numbers don't tell the whole story, and that Wilt could have done better. Maybe I am underrating Wilt. Actually, looking over that post, I'm pretty sure I am.

I mean, even though I know that Wilt played an ungodly amount of minutes that he could not have feasibly played in today's NBA (which is a testament to his stamina and endurance), and even though I know that the pace when Wilt played was significantly higher than it is today (which lead to some inflated stats) and even though I know that the level of competition back then wasn't quite as talented as the competition today (although the preposterous notion that the league back then was inhabited by 6'6" white centers is an insult to any past legends of the game), and even after having heard about them for all of my basketball watching life, Wilt's numbers STILL blow my fu[COLOR="Black"]c[/COLOR]king mind.

Look, I respect and remain in awe of Wilt. The dude was a sports legend, and there is not a single doubt in my mind that, if inserted into the present day, he would immediately be the most dominant center in the league.

But, the abilities of Kobe as a player just impress me more than those that I've seen of Wilt. Although, I admit, I have seen precious little in-game footage of Wilt at all during his career, and perhaps my my perception of Kobe as a greater basketball player is due to my having been exposed to him far more than I have been to Wilt.

As of right now, though, I have Kobe higher on my GOAT list.

Kobe only has 2 Finals MVP's and 1 MVP because he has been carried.

do you understand what pace is yet?

[QUOTE=ThatsGame]Kobe only has 2 Finals MVP's and 1 MVP because he has been carried.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
you can say he was "carried" in '00, but other than that...:roll:

[QUOTE=jacobgoindum]rebounds

'62 warriors
warriors = 5939
wilt = 2052
% = 34.6

'08 magic
magic = 3445
dwight = 1161
% = 33.7

dwight averaged only 36.1 mpg compared to 48.5 mpg for wilt
:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

You better recheck the Warriors TOTAL rebounds again...

go ahead and add them up, player-by-player. It comes to 5105.

And that was not Wilt's greatest rebounding season.

Furthermore, Howard has never proven to be capable of playing 40 mpg...Wilt was playing 43.2 mpg in his LAST season, and BTW, after leading the NBA in rebounding, he then averaged 22.5 rpg in the post-season, in a league that averaged 50.6 rpg.

[QUOTE=jlauber]You better recheck the Warriors TOTAL rebounds again...

go ahead and add them up, player-by-player. It comes to 5105.

And that was not Wilt's greatest rebounding season.

Furthermore, Howard has never proven to be capable of playing 40 mpg...Wilt was playing 43.2 mpg in his LAST season, and BTW, after leading the NBA in rebounding, he then averaged 22.5 rpg in the post-season, in a league that averaged 50.6 rpg.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHW/1962.html[/url]
team TRB = 5939
wilt = 2052

2052/5939 = 34.6%

[QUOTE=SuperPippen]I've skimmed through many of your Wilt-related posts, and while the numbers are definitely impressive, and while you have opened my eyes in regards to many Wilt-related myths, I just can't shake the feeling that those numbers don't tell the whole story, and that Wilt could have done better. Maybe I am underrating Wilt. Actually, looking over that post, I'm pretty sure I am.

I mean, even though I know that Wilt played an ungodly amount of minutes that he could not have feasibly played in today's NBA (which is a testament to his stamina and endurance), [B]and even though I know that the pace when Wilt played was significantly higher than it is today (which lead to some inflated stats)[/B] and even though I know that the level of competition back then wasn't quite as talented as the competition today (although the preposterous notion that the league back then was inhabited by 6'6" white centers is an insult to any past legends of the game), and even after having heard about them for all of my basketball watching life, Wilt's numbers STILL blow my fu[COLOR="Black"]c[/COLOR]king mind.

Look, I respect and remain in awe of Wilt. The dude was a sports legend, and there is not a single doubt in my mind that, if inserted into the present day, he would immediately be the most dominant center in the league.

But, the abilities of Kobe as a player just impress me more than those that I've seen of Wilt. Although, I admit, I have seen precious little in-game footage of Wilt at all during his career, and perhaps my my perception of Kobe as a greater basketball player is due to my having been exposed to him far more than I have been to Wilt.

As of right now, though, I have Kobe higher on my GOAT list.[/QUOTE]

I respect most of your post. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, especially when they are well-thought out, but I just have to disagree with the part about the pace being signficantly higher back in the 60's. Even in Wilt's highest scoring season, 61-62, the NBA averaged 118.8 ppg. Last season it was 99.6 ppg. And in MJ's '86-87 season, it was 109.9 ppg. Furthermore, there were seasons in the 60's, like 68-69, in which the league averaged 112.3 ppg (BTW, Chamberlain, despite seldom shooting at all, had TWO 60+ point games that season...one of them a 66 point game on 29-35 shooting.)

[QUOTE=jacobgoindum][url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHW/1962.html[/url]
team TRB = 5939
wilt = 2052[/QUOTE]

And it is wrong. Add them up... 5105 my friend. In fact, add up EVERY team's totals, player-by-player...not even close.

as you can see the pace

'62 warriors = 5939 total rebounds
'08 magic = 3445 total rebounds

[QUOTE=jlauber]And it is wrong. Add them up... 5105 my friend. In fact, add up EVERY team's totals, player-by-player...not even close.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:
its added up for you
5939

what kind of stupid asshole match up is this?