Was Scottie Pippen at least once robbed for Defensive Player of the Year?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Ill give a specific year. 1995. He was the best defender in the league. And shouldve won it over mutombo.

He led the league in steals, the bulls were second in team defense. Mutombos nuggets were like 14th. He had the highest defensive rating. Made allnba first team defense and waas the leading vote getter. And the bulls had a better record than the nuggets.

The only thing mutombo had over pippen is blocks. And pippen avg 1a game too.[/QUOTE]
Defensive rating is flawed at an individual level, I don't know that it splits credit between players properly.

Assuming it could split credit accurately your point could (and I would argue should) be reviewed in the reverse manner, Denver had Def Rating of 108.2 but Mutombo had 103 that is to say he was ahead of his team by better than 5 points per hundred plays. That puts him in the same ball park as Pippen. The total of his blocks and steals is above Pippen's and he adds intimidation and the league's fifth best defensive rebound %.

But I can see Pippen ahead Mutombo (or equal).

I can't see him above David Robinson though. Probably not over Olajuwon either for that matter (though Olajuwon missed 10 games so for that year, based on missing games you could have Pip ahead).

Clippersfan86 you don't know shit. Gary Payton the best perimeter defender of all time? He never had close to the impact that Pippen or Jordan had. Gary didn't even deserve that DPOY in 96 either, David Robinson did. In 1995 was the only legit season where an actual perimeter player (Scottie Pippen) actually deserved to be named DPOY and instead they gave it to Mutombo because he led the league in bpg.

[QUOTE=D.J.]Why not? Stats aren't everything. He took a Jordan-less team with Pete Myers starting at the 2 to 55 wins. Also remember the Bulls went 4-6 in the 10 games Pip missed. Give them an extra 3 wins with him playing and the Bulls are the #1 seed. People expected Houston to be up there. They won 55 games the prior year and were 1 win from the WCF. No one expected the Bulls to win 55 games that year or be 1 win from the ECF.[/QUOTE]
Doing it based on "expectations" just shows how flawed expectations were. Just because people didn't get how good Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, Kerr and indeed Pippen could be and that the holdovers were capable of taking a larger share of the offense that doesn't make Pippen the best player in the league. And the Bulls weren't a legit 55 win team, their points differential was inicative of a team quality that should on average lead to a 50-32 record.

Team performance (in terms of win loss record) versus expectations has been this basis for the most dubious MVPs (Unseld, maybe Cowens, Iverson, maybe Nash, Rose). Just because prognosticators underestimated a teams talent, fit, coaching etc that doesn't mean the team's best player is deserving of the MVP.

[QUOTE=Owl]Doing it based on "expectations" just shows how flawed expectations were. Just because people didn't get how good Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, Kerr and indeed Pippen could be and that the holdovers were capable of taking a larger share of the offense that doesn't make Pippen the best player in the league. And the Bulls weren't a legit 55 win team, their points differential was inicative of a team quality that should on average lead to a 50-32 record.

Team performance (in terms of win loss record) versus expectations has been this basis for the most dubious MVPs (Unseld, maybe Cowens, Iverson, maybe Nash, Rose). Just because prognosticators underestimated a teams talent, fit, coaching etc that doesn't mean the team's best player is deserving of the MVP.[/QUOTE]


And it doesn't mean the guy with the best stats should be MVP either. Point differential doesn't play a role. They won 55 games, regardless of whether they should have won 50 games or 5 games. And if you want to talk about teammates, Olajuwon didn't play alone.

[QUOTE=D.J.]And it doesn't mean the guy with the best stats should be MVP either. Point differential doesn't play a role. They won 55 games, regardless of whether they should have won 50 games or 5 games. And if you want to talk about teammates, Olajuwon didn't play alone.[/QUOTE]
Points differential (and especially SRS) are more accurate indicators of a teams quality than wins (because they give more information than a binary won-loss). One proof of this is that they are better predictive of title winners.

If you don't think the list I gave was of some of the worst MVP awards given and if you think team record vs expectations is a good way to judge individual players then you should feel free to believe Pip deserved an MVP. Otherwise he just plain didn't, which doesn't mean he wasn't very good indeed.

[QUOTE=Owl]Defensive rating is flawed at an individual level, I don't know that it splits credit between players properly.

Assuming it could split credit accurately your point could (and I would argue should) be reviewed in the reverse manner, Denver had Def Rating of 108.2 but Mutombo had 103 that is to say he was ahead of his team by better than 5 points per hundred plays. That puts him in the same ball park as Pippen. The total of his blocks and steals is above Pippen's and he adds intimidation and the league's fifth best defensive rebound %.

But I can see Pippen ahead Mutombo (or equal).

I can't see him above David Robinson though. Probably not over Olajuwon either for that matter (though Olajuwon missed 10 games so for that year, based on missing games you could have Pip ahead).[/QUOTE]

Pippen was a 98 to the Bulls teams overall 104.3, so what is your point? He was still more dominant in that aspect too as far as compared to Mutombo.

[QUOTE=Punpun]He fell to the hype machine that Jordan was. AKA[B], Jordan the ballhog stole a Dpoy from Pippen.[/B][/QUOTE]


You talking about the one in 1988 when Pippen was picking splinters out of his ass on the bench??

:coleman:

The thing is that Payton is probably the best pure man defender in NBA history. My opinion, at least on the perimeter.



Pippen and Jordan did more things on defense, and I think they were the two better defenders. But Gary Payton's defense puts Bruce Bowen, even with flying kicks, to shame.

Jordan and Pippen were pretty easily better defenders then Payton IMO. I feel like people that say otherwise must've not watched them play enough or they are doing what alot of people do here and pick the player that isn't nearly as talked about as much just cause they think its way too much to give even more credit to someone thats already praised so much like Jordan and Pippen.

No, he was never robbed. The best defenders in the league were Rodman from 90-96ish Mutumbo from 94ish-01 Zo during the late 90's and early 00's, and David Robinson in 99 (other years too, but I thought Robinson in 99 was especially fantastic). Hakeem can get thrown in during the early 90's too. I don't think there is a single year Pippen really has a case for being the best defender in the league. Not taking away from anything he did, but he was the second best defender on his team quite a few years during his prime.
EDIT: If we're talking about best perimeter defender though, he was probably from like 95-97, though Rodman was just as good and much more versatile. Payton was probably just as good in 96 and 97, though I think his impact was more in his full court defense then his halfcourt defense (not that his halfcourt wasn't good too)

[QUOTE=Smoke117]Pippen was a 98 to the Bulls teams overall 104.3, so what is your point? He was still more dominant in that aspect too as far as compared to Mutombo.[/QUOTE]
My point was (well read the post again, but to reiterate)
Defensive Rating is flawed as an individual measure. Especially for comparing players on different teams.
Your reference to Mutombo's team DRating was irrelevent, they were in the same ballpark for influence on their team, even if you do accept DRating on an individual level as being a very accurate tool.
Mutombo had statistical (blocks+steals total, defensive rebounds) and entangiable (intimidation) advantages.
Nonetheless I can see someone preferring Pip to Mutombo.

But I absolutely can't see Pip over (league leader in defensive win shares, incidentally) David Robinson.

Thats it repeated again. But this was all in the original message. What don't you get?

Pippen if anything is highly overrated these days. he should be thankful his legacy is greater in hindsight than it was when he was playing. to me he's one of the most overrated players in the 80's era of stars....

[QUOTE=Owl]Defensive rating is flawed at an individual level, I don't know that it splits credit between players properly.

Assuming it could split credit accurately your point could (and I would argue should) be reviewed in the reverse manner, Denver had Def Rating of 108.2 but Mutombo had 103 that is to say he was ahead of his team by better than 5 points per hundred plays. That puts him in the same ball park as Pippen. The total of his blocks and steals is above Pippen's and he adds intimidation and the league's fifth best defensive rebound %.

But I can see Pippen ahead Mutombo (or equal).

I can't see him above David Robinson though. Probably not over Olajuwon either for that matter (though Olajuwon missed 10 games so for that year, based on missing games you could have Pip ahead).[/QUOTE]
Why not over Robinson? Robinson had Dennis Rodman playing alongside him. What did Pippen have? His bigs were Will Perdue, Luc Longley, who missed half the season if i remember correct, Bill Wennington who was decent, Dickey Simpkins, Corie Blount, Larry Krystsowiak, and Toni Kukoc. How the bulls finishe second in the league in defense is a testament to Pippen. SECOND. None of the players i named should be considered defensive anchors.

And whats with this "intimidation" factor? The fact is the spurs finished ninth and the nuggets fourteenth in team defense, while the bulls finished second. So opposing offense werent too intimidated by the spurs and nuggets

What more could pippen have done?

[QUOTE=magnax1]No, he was never robbed. The best defenders in the league were Rodman from 90-96ish Mutumbo from 94ish-01 Zo during the late 90's and early 00's, and David Robinson in 99 (other years too, but I thought Robinson in 99 was especially fantastic). Hakeem can get thrown in during the early 90's too. I don't think there is a single year Pippen really has a case for being the best defender in the league. Not taking away from anything he did, but he was the second best defender on his team quite a few years during his prime.
EDIT: If we're talking about best perimeter defender though, he was probably from like 95-97, though Rodman was just as good and much more versatile. Payton was probably just as good in 96 and 97, though I think his impact was more in his full court defense then his halfcourt defense (not that his halfcourt wasn't good too)[/QUOTE]
He wasnt robbed in 95? And your post doesnt really make sense. We all know jordan was the best player from 87-98. He didnt deserve the mvp every one ofof those years

[QUOTE=Godzuki]Pippen if anything is highly overrated these days. he should be thankful his legacy is greater in hindsight than it was when he was playing. to me he's one of the most overrated players in the 80's era of stars....[/QUOTE]



:oldlol: