Is defense an overrated argument?

offense will get you paid, defense will help you fit in any system.

[quote] Shaq draws fouls at a higher rate[/quote]

It seems I was mistaken. 6'5 Charles Barkley actually drew fouls at a higher rate than Shaq. He had as high a motor as I have ever seen. Too many posters must be thinking of the old broken down Barkley after 1994.



[B]FTA/FGA[/B] [B]Ratio[/B]

[B]Barkley[/B]

[B]1988:[/B] 0.741
[B]1989:[/B] 0.661
[B]1990:[/B] 0.632
[B]1991:[/B] 0.563


[B]Shaq[/B]

[B]1998:[/B] 0.593
[B]1999:[/B] 0.562
[B]2000:[/B] 0.494
[B]2001:[/B] 0.684

[QUOTE]That's great, Pippen is the best perimeter defender I've ever seen, and those Bulls teams were the GOAT teams, but this just proves my point, Defense is %100 team effort - everybody has to do their part. Pippen didn't hold the Jazz to 54 points by himself, the Bulls as a team held the Jazz to 54 points. Pippen definitely played the biggest role, but if Jordan, Harper, Kukoc and Longley were playing terrible defensively would that be possible?[/QUOTE]

Well, the same thing can be said about offense. Even a player like Shaq would struggle if he were surrounded by bad shooters.

[QUOTE=PHILA]For all the celebration a guy like Rodman got with his histrionics as a rebounding specialist, he had nothing on Barkley as a rebounder.[/quote]

Doesn't matter if Rodman was a specialist, he has the best rebounding numbers of the modern era.


[QUOTE=PHILA]
[I]Chicago Tribune - Feb 8, 1997

Also offering his opinion of Rodman was Wilt Chamberlain, the greatest rebounder and No. 2 scorer in NBA history. Chamberlain and Magic Johnson are among several Hall of Famers who believe the presence of too many "specialists"--players who only shoot or rebound or defend is one reason why scoring is down and the game is slower. Rodman, Chamberlain said, "is a big rebounder. He does it better than anyone else out there. But I am amazed (at) guys who tend not to want to understand that playing the complete game is what the game should be about. "I remember Elgin Baylor scoring 45 and 71 points against us beating us and getting 18 rebounds. I'm not impressed with Dennis' 17 rebound average. He's not an all-around player. Why I like a guy like Charles Barkley so much is he gives his team whatever it needs at that time."[/I][/QUOTE]

I take everything Wilt said with a big grain of salt. Seems that dude couldn't stand the thought of someone being better than him in any way.

And who cares if Rodman didn't do everything? What he did worked extremely well for the Pistons and Bulls to the tune of five championships. And yes, Rodman did play an important role. You think Jordan gets that second three-peat without Rodman's defensive and rebounding specialization? Hell no.

[QUOTE=Young X]Can one player have the defensive equivalent of a 35 pt season? Can one player stop teams from scoring 35 points per game for a whole season by himself?[/QUOTE]
You cant measure defense like this. Or offense. A player avg 35 can only do it with the help of his team.

[QUOTE]
I take everything Wilt said with a big grain of salt. Seems that dude couldn't stand the thought of someone being better than him in any way.*And who cares if Rodman didn't do everything? What he did worked extremely well for the Pistons and Bulls to the tune of five championships. And yes, Rodman did play an important role. You think Jordan gets that second three-peat without Rodman's defensive and rebounding specialization? Hell no.

[/QUOTE]
Great post. Wilt never had much to say about anyone being compared to him. Ill never forget the look on his face when Glen Rice broke one if his all-star game records.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Great post. Wilt never had much to say about anyone being compared to him. Ill never forget the look on his face when Glen Rice broke one if his all-star game records.[/QUOTE]

I don't get it. You'd think he achieved enough in his career to prove his worth as an all-time great to himself. The only blemish is not having more rings. But it seems Wilt was more obsessed with future players having comparable individual stats, or being called better. Why would he need to feel that way?

Why do some of these old-timers get bitter like that? You accomplish what you can in your era, and go down in the history books. Then you retire and let the future generations do their thing. Seems really silly.

if you were to choose between 2 equally skilled offensive players, defense is your tie breaker. you really don't want a liability on defense.

[quote]Doesn't matter if Rodman was a specialist, he has the best rebounding numbers of the modern era.[/quote]

But could Charles Barkley have equal or better numbers in his prime if he was asked to focus just on that? Who knows, it's an irrelevant question anyways but it shows the flaw in those who are blindly assuming Barkley's offensive contribution could be so easily replaced. Do they also think Shaq could be easily replaced in terms of offense only? Putting pressure on the defense counts for something. In 1990, Rick Mahorn was able to cover up for Barkley quite a bit on the interior. Remember Charles was typically guarding the small forwards on defense.



[I]Dallas Morning News - Mar 1, 1990

Philadelphia's interior defense has improved dramatically, and Mahorn's presence has allowed Barkley to guard the small forward. "Charles has become more of a leader each year I've been here,' said Lynam, who has been in Philadelphia for the last three years. "He's putting more of a conscious effort into being involved at the defensive end of the court on a consistent basis. He's more involved with the other players during the game. "We need an involved, active Charles. That has a positive effect." Barkley says he likes this Sixers team. He joins Mahorn and Gminski to give them one of the most physical front lines around. Hawkins and Johnny Dawkins, obtained from San Antonio for veteran Maurice Cheeks in the off-season, complement each other in the backcourt.[/I]


[quote]defense[/quote]

Not that I think defense is less important than offense, I am one who ranks Bill Russell right next to Jordan as the greatest primarily due to his defensive game. Based on the available (limited) [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=302158"]video footage[/URL], he was 7% in shot blocking percentage and roughly 36% in defensive rebounding percentage. To be that dominant in either one of those areas is something, but to be that dominant in [B]both?[/B] Especially considering shot blocking tends to take you out of proper rebounding position? That is why he is the greatest. Below are the single season leaders for block percentage and defensive rebounding percentage. To think Russell would be near or at the top on both of these lists is amazing.


[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_pct_career.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/drb_pct_career.html[/url]


He was basically rebounding like Dennis Rodman and blocking shots like Hakeem/Robinson. You talk about a guy who not only doesn't have a defensive weakness, but is so dominant at virtually every area on that side, that is Bill Russell. I do however believe Nate Thurmond was a better 1 on 1 low post defensive man, though that is a completely different discussion.

So who's prime do you take, Scottie Pippen or Carmelo Anthony?

If we say the difference between Anthony's offensive game is matched by the difference with Pippen's defensive prowess, and they play the same position, then offense wins right?

But I'm taking Pippen any day.

Mourning was a good offensive player, so I dunno why you have him with guys like Mutombo and Artest. He was a 20+pt player his entire career up until the kidney ailment. His efficiency was also fantastic and he should have won the MVP in 99, not Karl Malone. He was the 2nd best player in the league after Shaq in 2000.

[QUOTE]But could Charles Barkley have equal or better numbers in his prime if he was asked to focus just on that? Who knows, it's an irrelevant question anyways but it shows the flaw in those who are blindly assuming Barkley's offensive contribution could be so easily replaced[/QUOTE]
He was asked to focus on rebounding in 97 with the Rockets. Ive always believed Barkley was the bizzaro Rodman. Both great rebounders, but Rodman dominated on defense Barkley on offense.

[QUOTE=PHILA]he was 7% in shot blocking percentage and roughly 36% in defensive rebounding percentage.[/QUOTE]

36% is just sick. I wonder what Wilt's was.

I will agree that Russell was the better team player until later in Wilt's career. Maybe it was just the perfect situation for Russell, and Wilt was in a situation that encouraged him to stat pad.

And the interesting thing is that Wilt's teams were at their best when he was more focused on rebounding, passing and defense.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Well, the same thing can be said about offense. Even a player like Shaq would struggle if he were surrounded by bad shooters.[/QUOTE]
Plenty of games out there where one star player has put the team on his back while his teammates struggled offensively.


Has there ever been a single defensive player to carry an elite defense while all of his teammates played subpar D?? It's not really possible. Teams will always go for the weak point or soft spot. If only one guy is making a great effort it will be negated by attacking his teammates.

[QUOTE=Marchesk]So who's prime do you take, Scottie Pippen or Carmelo Anthony?

If we say the difference between Anthony's offensive game is matched by the difference with Pippen's defensive prowess, and they play the same position, then offense wins right?

But I'm taking Pippen any day.[/QUOTE]
Pippen allday everyday. I feel Melo is on the same line as Rodman