Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

again...LA would have won the 1980 finals in even more dominant fashion without kareem. seriously. thats why they won 123-107 without him. both the highest scoring game by the lakers and the highest margin of victory.....and it was on the road....and it was win or go home(stay home) for the sixers so they gave it their best shot. with no kareem to slow them down the lakers ran the sixers off the court....nuff said.

kareems "legend" is so freaking overrated.

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]

2. I was there watching Kareem and Magic and the Lakers as a kid at the time...Magic was clearly the leader of the Lakers hands down...Kareem could put up numbers because he had the hook and Magic got him the ball all the time...but Magic was clearly the most important cog from '82 on...unless you watched it, you wouldn't know..[B]the poster who said the Lakers were Kareem's team until '87...what ARE you smokin?[/B] :pimp:[/QUOTE]

I was that poster. There is something that you and Pointguard seem to be missing. I never once claimed that Kareem was the leader until 1987. I stated and highlighted in my post many times that the[B][U] public perception[/U][/B] was that Kareem was leader until that point.

[QUOTE=jlip]I was that poster. There is something that you and Pointguard seem to be missing. I never once claimed that Kareem was the leader until 1987. I stated and highlighted in my post many times that the[B][U] public perception[/U][/B] was that Kareem was leader until that point.[/QUOTE]

I don't really think so. Of course the "company line" was. But that was just to appease KAJ. Everyone in the Laker organization knew where their bread was really buttered, though.

To continue to put this thread in more context, Bird was being hounded by the Pistons (Rodman, etc.), Bobby Jones, and Michael Cooper every playoff series.
These are not just some of the best defenders of their time, but of all time...game after game, series after series.

Example:
[url]http://articles.latimes.com/1987-12-12/sports/sp-6653_1_michael-cooper[/url]

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]To continue to put this thread in more context, Bird was being hounded by the Pistons (Rodman, etc.), Bobby Jones, and Michael Cooper every playoff series.
These are not just some of the best defenders of their time, but of all time...game after game, series after series.

Example:
[url]http://articles.latimes.com/1987-12-12/sports/sp-6653_1_michael-cooper[/url][/QUOTE]

Coop...the "Bird-hunter"...

BTW, I get a kick out of those that claim that Magic was a defensive liability. He led the NBA in spg twice, as well as the post-season twice.

And, BTW, who could guard him at the other end?

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I get so sick-and-tired of using QUOTES. Hell, for the longest time people like Simmons were quoting West and Barry as blasting Wilt. Hmmm...now we have interviews in which they have both claimed that Wilt was the most dominant player to have ever played the game.

And the reality is, I could waste my time, and look up SI articles after Magic won his first, and then his third FMVP. There were those that were already proclaiming him as the best player in the league at that time. And he was.

Again, Bird had more MVP votes in the regular seasons from '80 thru '82, but only because KAJ was taking votes away from Magic. And after the numerous playoff flops that Bird had in his first four seasons (even in a Finals series win), no one in their right mind would have taken him over Magic in terms of playoff dominance.

And even Bird's "three-peat MVP's" were blown to shreds by Magic in 1985. Again, Bird was the FIFTH best player in that series, and McHale was easily the better player on his own team.

And after '87. Well, not even close.

In terms of overall career resumes, Magic is well ahead of Bird.

As for Kareem vs Magic. MAGIC outvoted Kareem in the MVP balloting, EVERY season from 81-82 on. Everyone, including RILEY, knew it was MAGIC who was carrying those teams. Don't kid yourself. He was being kind to "Cap", but clearly, Magic was the architect of those FIVE titles.[/QUOTE]

Please do waste your time LAZERUSS and post SI articles that say Magic is clearly better than Bird OR Kareem prior to the 86-87 season. And not based off of hype related to one game like "after scoring 45 points last night, Magic is the best player in the game". Of course most posters here would agree that Bird > Magic for the first seven years of their careers.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]When Magic was given the Franchise contract, he was like management because the contract was for 25 years, and he worked toward not alienating Kareem - Kareem was pretty good at that his whole life. Kareem got upset with the Franchise player and went to the franchise to complain (even threatened to leave the team) about Magic's franchise contract. Kareem amazingly didn't know he was an outsider. Magic always took the high road and brought Kareem in. Didn't say Kareem was a jerk for that move and never griped with Kareem and looked out for him his whole stay. Magic knew he had the franchises ear but never exercised it on Kareem. If it was one or the other Magic knew he had the balance of power and was the franchise.[/QUOTE]

Sure the Lakers organization went out of their way to appease Magic. He was young entering his prime and he was the one selling tickets. Popularity and stage of career has much much more to do with that than "Kareem's attitude". You do know that Magic got his coach fired in the '81 offseason? You do know that he clashed with Nixon for touches in their early years together?

[QUOTE]All the people that mattered knew it was Magic's team. The franchise, the players and the coaches. Some parts of the media may not have known. To appease the franchise Magic co-opted Kareem to bring in his tremendous talent. And Magic featured Kareem and always tended to his fragile ego much more than any player I can think of.[/QUOTE]

Kareem's fragile ego? Please explain. What did Kareem do to undermine his team ever? Seriously I don't know and you might be on to something but I've never heard about it.

[QUOTE][B]As an individual player Kareem was better. As a team player and winner he wasn't close to Magic.[/B] Nothing stands up and says that. 8 years and he fails to prove more than once that he has it. Rick Barry's chip was way more impressive than Kareem's. Aging Dandridge and Hayes did was more impressive than what Kareem did in the 70's. Throw Gus Williams chip in there too as being more impressive as well. And those guys don't make an allstar team in any year in the 80's. But Magic wins it when HOF's MJ, Bird, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Doc, Isiah, Hakeem, Barkley, McHale, Parrish, Stockton and Drexler.[/QUOTE]

Situations man...

You realize that Kareem's supporting cast was totally decimated by injuries in '72, '74, and '77 when his team was a contender? You do realize that from the 73-74 season to 78-79 season he didn't have a single teammate make an all-star team or all-defensive selection?

Look at the '74 Bucks playoff roster (with Allen DNP and Oscar on his last legs both figuratively and literally!) and tell me with a straight face that they were supposed to even have a chance vs. Boston.

And if you think what Hayes and Barry did is more impressive than what Kareem did in '71 (or '80 for that matter) then I don't really know what to say.

Look at this quote by Bill Walton about Kareem. And he's isn't exactly some joe schmoe but one of the biggest basketball minds ever to set foot on the court.

"I lived to play against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He was the greatest player I ever played against, by far. Better than Jordan. Better than Magic. better than Bird. Better than Dr. J. Better than the best of the best that I played against. Better than Rick Barry. He was my source of motivation for everything I ever did. Everything I did was to try to beat this guy. I lived to play against him, and I played my best ball against him. No matter what I threw at him, though, it seemed like he'd score 50 against me. His left leg belongs in the Smithsonian. And it wasn't just offense. He was a great defender and rebounder, a great passer, a wonderful leader. He was phenomenal. " - [B]Bill Walton[/B]

[QUOTE]No way does Magic get less than three rings in the 70's two would have been a disappointment. Magic could win it when real greats were playing. Kareem was the best player for a good ten years before Magic and it was the most opportunistic time to win a chip.
[/QUOTE]

The 70's were a brutal era to win a ring. Just because there were no dynasties doesn't mean it was weak. It just wasn't top-heavy but there were many great teams.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
BTW, I get a kick out of those that claim that Magic was a defensive liability. He led the NBA in spg twice, as well as the post-season twice.[/QUOTE]

Yea because steals are a great indicator of defense... :banghead:

I just have to laugh at those that continue to protect Bird in these discussions. Magic was the better player...plain-and-simple. And for those that claim that Magic had better supporting casts,...just how in the hell did Magic take the 89-90 Lakers to a 63-19 record, and then follow that up by taking an injury-riddle roster that was in state of rapid decline, to a 58-24 record and a trip to the Finals in his last season?

The reality was, Bird had at least the equal of Magic in terms of supporting rosters. He was playing alongside THREE to FOUR other HOFers every season in his career.

And let's dispense with this "tougher" Eastern Conference nonsense right now. In '80 and '82, the Lakers easily beat the 76ers. Hell, they won a clinching game, in a rout, on the road, and without KAJ for cryingoutloud. Yet, those two teams were continually battling each other in series that were decided by 1-2 points. Clearly, it would have made no difference had LA been in the East.

I'll agree that the '83 Sixers were arguably the best team of the decade (although the '87 Lakers are right there), but Boston didn't even face them. They were busy choking away a sweeping loss to the under-dog Bucks in that post-season. And here is a good question while we are at it. How many titles does Moses win with a good supporting cast from '79 thru '83? He was just waxing a helpless KAJ in all of those seasons...and even in the playoffs with half the surrounding talent.

BTW, for those that argue that the '86 Celtics were the best team of the decade...it is just too bad that LA stumbled against the Rockets that post-season. The reality was, the '84 Lakers HANDED the Finals to Boston. By even Bird's own admission, LA should have SWEPT Boston that year (and yes, they should have.) In '85, after KAJ awoke from his slumber in game one, the Lakers overpowered Boston winning four of the next five, including a massacre in LA, and a solid clinching road win in Boston. And in '87, the Lakers won three games in which they had 20+ point leads, and another in Boston, on a Magic mini-hook (while Bird choked yet again with a brick at the buzzer.) IMHO, the Lakers from '84 thru '87 were CLEARLY the better team. And yes, Magic was the better player (despite Bird winning three straight MVPs.)

Magic was better H2H (and could have scored much more had he so chosen...hell, he had the TWO highest scoring games in their H2H's.) He was CLEARLY a better player in post-season...again, Bird had a slight edge in '81, '84, and solid edge in '86...Magic had an overwhelming edge in '80, '82, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91. In their H2H's there were times where Bird was only the FIFTH best player on the floor, and not even the best player on his own team.

And I have posted the MANY post-season "choke jobs" that Bird put up. Needless to say, he lost SEVEN times with HCA. But not only that, he had SEVERAL AWFUL performances in them, as well. It is one thing to lose in a playoff series, it is quite another to blow chunks all over the floor in the process.

So, one more damned time...Magic >>> Bird.

[QUOTE=dankok8]
Sure the Lakers organization went out of their way to appease Magic. He was young entering his prime and he was the one selling tickets. Popularity and stage of career has much much more to do with that than "Kareem's attitude". You do know that Magic got his coach fired in the '81 offseason? You do know that he clashed with Nixon for touches in their early years together? [/quote]
The Laker's organization got Kareem just as he entered what is the usual prime for a center 28 years old. Why didn't he get that type of franchise contract? Trust me it, Magic was in operation for the franchise in all of his early moves, especially with Westhead who was more tolerable than Kareem. Nixon and Magic by nature could not co-exist together as he ran the team differently than Magic and Magic, who supposedly couldn't tolerate a nice coach, tolerated another point guard who was contrary to him stylistically on the team for three years, and Kareem who goes to management about him.
[quote]
Kareem's fragile ego? Please explain. What did Kareem do to undermine his team ever? Seriously I don't know and you might be on to something but I've never heard about it. [/quote]
Kareem went to management about Magic's contract and threatened to leave the team. And trust me, back then this was totally uncool and not old school. One might expect the spoil brats of today to do that but back then you just didn't do that. He was real sensitive about the criticism he received about not hustling and the movie airplane even has several jokes about it.
[quote]
Situations man...

You realize that Kareem's supporting cast was totally decimated by injuries in '72, '74, and '77 when his team was a contender? You do realize that from the 73-74 season to 78-79 season he didn't have a single teammate make an all-star team or all-defensive selection? [/quote]
Winner's find a way particularly in times when others are doing it alone and teams were weak for five years. It was the time of opportunity. Rick Barry didn't have any of those benefits you described above either. Hayes on the downside of his career didn't have that benefit either. I don't think Jack Sikma had one either.
[quote]
Look at the '74 Bucks playoff roster (with Allen DNP and Oscar on his last legs both figuratively and literally!) and tell me with a straight face that they were supposed to even have a chance vs. Boston.

And if you think what Hayes and Barry did is more impressive than what Kareem did in '71 (or '80 for that matter) then I don't really know what to say. [/quote]
More impressive in terms of their ability to win it all without a top ten GOAT next to them. And I'm talking about their decade accomplishment, not that year cause Kareem was much better than them stat wise every year without doubt. But they won it all without an Oscar Robinson (a guy that Kareem says could probably beat himself and Jordan one on one), Goodrich or a prime Danderidge, or a vet team of years together of Nixon, Dantley, Allen with seasoned champs Wilkes and Cazzie. Teams back then were rarely as seasoned except the Celtics who weren't competing in the later part of the year.
[quote]

"I lived to play against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He was the greatest player I ever played against, by far. Better than Jordan. Better than Magic. better than Bird. Better than Dr. J. Better than the best of the best that I played against. Better than Rick Barry. He was my source of motivation for everything I ever did. Everything I did was to try to beat this guy. I lived to play against him, and I played my best ball against him. No matter what I threw at him, though, it seemed like he'd score 50 against me. His left leg belongs in the Smithsonian. And it wasn't just offense. He was a great defender and rebounder, a great passer, a wonderful leader. He was phenomenal. " - [B]Bill Walton[/B] [/quote]
He wasn't better than Jordan as an individual player and this isn't questionable, not better than Magic or Bird as a team player. Like I said the game was decentralized before Wallton came up or when Wilt left the game. Walton also has Magic ahead of Bird.

[quote]
The 70's were a brutal era to win a ring. Just because there were no dynasties doesn't mean it was weak. It just wasn't top-heavy but there were many great teams.
[/quote]
Great enough that Barry could win it with teams worse than Kareem and Hayes could win it all in similar fashion. After '74 there were no consistent winners in the '70's. That's the time to assert yourself when its open like that. There is no five year span, '75 thru '79, where there is a greater opportunity to win a ring since '55 and maybe beyond that.
[quote]
Yea because steals are a great indicator of defense... :banghead:[/QUOTE]
Steals, after the game was decentralized on Kareem's watch, are more valuable than blocks are. A steal is a turnover and usually, when Magic did it, two points or three points on the other end. A block, unless its a Wilt/Russell block, is more than likely NOT a turnover, much less two or three points. As a value statement Magic's steals were one of the biggest defensive plays there was. Not only could it be a five point turn around but it was demoralizing and kept the offensive team on their heels. The other team took less chances and played more reserved because of fear of Magic's running ability. Magic affected offenses in ways that if you understand the game, were pretty thorough. And this is definitely under defense:

Like I said in another thread about the '85 finals. The reason the Celtic backcourt shot 20% and had seven turnovers while playing conservatively and nearly maxed out their fouls, was because of their responsibilities to contain Magic. Magic had totally devastated their backcourt and contributed to why Bird missed 17 shots. A lot of players could not play Magic's pace.

If Kareem was ever to meet Magic in a series, in the 80's, Magic would trashed his team because Magic would have ran him into the ground or picked apart the four on five.

[B]Lazeruss has over 2400 posts (with that account only, not even counting alts or past accounts) and all of them are about Wilt somehow, all of them to fit his crazy agenda (Magic better than Bird, Magic #1 not Kareem, Wilt better than Kareem), making the most outlandish and ignorant arguments again and again, even if nobody takes him seriously anymore.. How crazy is that? Furthermore, he even goes against his main goal, he makes people hate Wilt (or hate more) with his ridiculous, even I am starting to dislike Wilt in a way lol and I was always a fan.
Really sad and ridiculous, no point of arguing anymore. This dude can write the biggest essays and all, doesn't even have a life outside of trying to hail Wilt as a god. Again, sad and ridiculous, not point in going forward.[/B]

[QUOTE]Sure the Lakers organization went out of their way to appease Magic. He was young entering his prime and he was the one selling tickets. Popularity and stage of career has much much more to do with that than "Kareem's attitude".[B] You do know that Magic got his coach fired in the '81 offseason? You do know that he clashed with Nixon for touches in their early years together[/B]?[/QUOTE]

:roll:

Magic got Westhead fired? You better do some more research, my friend...

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Johnson[/url]

[QUOTE]In 1981, after the 1980

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Lazeruss has over 2400 posts (with that account only, not even counting alts or past accounts) and all of them are about Wilt somehow, all of them to fit his crazy agenda (Magic better than Bird, Magic #1 not Kareem, Wilt better than Kareem), making the most outlandish and ignorant arguments again and again, even if nobody takes him seriously anymore.. How crazy is that? Furthermore, he even goes against his main goal, he makes people hate Wilt (or hate more) with his ridiculous, even I am starting to dislike Wilt in a way lol and I was always a fan.
Really sad and ridiculous, no point of arguing anymore. This dude can write the biggest essays and all, doesn't even have a life outside of trying to hail Wilt as a god. Again, sad and ridiculous, not point in going forward.[/B][/QUOTE]


First of all, what are my other "alts?"

Secondly, evidently you haven't read any of the MANY other posts on topics like Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Love, Hakeem, Duncan, Moses, players from the 60's, great teams, and the MANY in which I have praised KAJ. In fact, I could probably go one for hours.

And no, you are no more of a "Wilt" fan than Dankok8 is a "Magic" fan.

And again, give me some actual research with legitimate arguments in any of these "discussions" instead of your mindless and endless OPINIONS.

NOT one person here has given me or anyone else ANY proof, which shows that a 76-77 KAJ was more at his PEAK, than a '70 thru '72 KAJ. NONE. Show me his statistical advantages. Show me his defensive impact. Give me that DOMINANCE that a YOUNG Kareem shredded the NBA with. Hell, even inhis ROOKIE season, he had the HIGHEST scoring POST-SEASON of his career, and it included a series against the reigning MVP. Then reality was, Kareem was FAR more dominant in those years in EVERY aspect of his game, including defense and TEAM success.

As for these RIDICULOUS Bird-Magic discussions...H2H's, TEAM SUCCESS, playoff H2H's, MVPs, FMVPs, overall post-season play...MAGIC, and by a MILE.

Now, get on with your life, and find something else in which you might actually be good at.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I just have to laugh at those that continue to protect Bird in these discussions. Magic was the better player...plain-and-simple. And for those that claim that Magic had better supporting casts,...just how in the hell did Magic take the 89-90 Lakers to a 63-19 record, and then follow that up by taking an injury-riddle roster that was in state of rapid decline, to a 58-24 record and a trip to the Finals in his last season?

The reality was, Bird had at least the equal of Magic in terms of supporting rosters. He was playing alongside THREE to FOUR other HOFers every season in his career.

And let's dispense with this "tougher" Eastern Conference nonsense right now. In '80 and '82, the Lakers easily beat the 76ers. Hell, they won a clinching game, in a rout, on the road, and without KAJ for cryingoutloud. Yet, those two teams were continually battling each other in series that were decided by 1-2 points. Clearly, it would have made no difference had LA been in the East.

I'll agree that the '83 Sixers were arguably the best team of the decade (although the '87 Lakers are right there), but Boston didn't even face them. They were busy choking away a sweeping loss to the under-dog Bucks in that post-season. And here is a good question while we are at it. How many titles does Moses win with a good supporting cast from '79 thru '83? He was just waxing a helpless KAJ in all of those seasons...and even in the playoffs with half the surrounding talent.

BTW, for those that argue that the '86 Celtics were the best team of the decade...it is just too bad that LA stumbled against the Rockets that post-season. The reality was, the '84 Lakers HANDED the Finals to Boston. By even Bird's own admission, LA should have SWEPT Boston that year (and yes, they should have.) In '85, after KAJ awoke from his slumber in game one, the Lakers overpowered Boston winning four of the next five, including a massacre in LA, and a solid clinching road win in Boston. And in '87, the Lakers won three games in which they had 20+ point leads, and another in Boston, on a Magic mini-hook (while Bird choked yet again with a brick at the buzzer.) IMHO, the Lakers from '84 thru '87 were CLEARLY the better team. And yes, Magic was the better player (despite Bird winning three straight MVPs.)

Magic was better H2H (and could have scored much more had he so chosen...hell, he had the TWO highest scoring games in their H2H's.) He was CLEARLY a better player in post-season...again, Bird had a slight edge in '81, '84, and solid edge in '86...Magic had an overwhelming edge in '80, '82, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91. In their H2H's there were times where Bird was only the FIFTH best player on the floor, and not even the best player on his own team.

And I have posted the MANY post-season "choke jobs" that Bird put up. Needless to say, he lost SEVEN times with HCA. But not only that, he had SEVERAL AWFUL performances in them, as well. It is one thing to lose in a playoff series, it is quite another to blow chunks all over the floor in the process.

So, one more damned time...Magic >>> Bird.[/QUOTE]

I agree the teammate argument is weak. Bird's teams certainly had a lot more defensive talent than Magic's so it evens out.

The conference argument holds water though. Magic could cruise through the playoffs busting weak teams while Bird had to fight for his life just to make the finals. His Celtics teams were often bruised and injured facing the Lakers.

If you think Magic > Bird from '84 to '86 period that's a big problem though. Bird was a monster in those 3 consecutive postseasons. He had a slight drop in the '85 Finals because of injury but overall it's no contest. Bird won 3 straight MVP's as well.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]The Laker's organization got Kareem just as he entered what is the usual prime for a center 28 years old. Why didn't he get that type of franchise contract? Trust me it, Magic was in operation for the franchise in all of his early moves, especially with Westhead who was more tolerable than Kareem. Nixon and Magic by nature could not co-exist together as he ran the team differently than Magic and Magic, who supposedly couldn't tolerate a nice coach, tolerated another point guard who was contrary to him stylistically on the team for three years, and Kareem who goes to management about him.

Kareem went to management about Magic's contract and threatened to leave the team. And trust me, back then this was totally uncool and not old school. One might expect the spoil brats of today to do that but back then you just didn't do that. He was real sensitive about the criticism he received about not hustling and the movie airplane even has several jokes about it.[/QUOTE]

What does that prove? That Kareem was a dick that he was upset about the contract situation? I don't recall ever reading that he threatened to leave or anything like that.

And by the way he was more than happy to give Magic the green light in the 86-87 season and take a step back. Kareem was a pretty freaking unselfish player.

[QUOTE]Winner's find a way particularly in times when others are doing it alone and teams were weak for five years. It was the time of opportunity. Rick Barry didn't have any of those benefits you described above either. Hayes on the downside of his career didn't have that benefit either. I don't think Jack Sikma had one either.[/QUOTE]

Barry's title was a fluke. Which other great player led a clearly underdog team to a title? Dirk in 2011? So about twice in almost 60 years since the merger... Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt etc. never did it either.

[QUOTE]More impressive in terms of their ability to win it all without a top ten GOAT next to them. And I'm talking about their decade accomplishment, not that year cause Kareem was much better than them stat wise every year without doubt. But they won it all without an Oscar Robinson (a guy that Kareem says could probably beat himself and Jordan one on one), Goodrich or a prime Danderidge, or a vet team of years together of Nixon, Dantley, Allen with seasoned champs Wilkes and Cazzie. Teams back then were rarely as seasoned except the Celtics who weren't competing in the later part of the year.[/QUOTE]

Oscar in '71 was WAY REMOVED from his peak years. He was very good still but not on that level. And then in '72 WCF vs. LA and '74 Finals vs. Boston he was a shell of himself.

[QUOTE]He wasn't better than Jordan as an individual player and this isn't questionable, not better than Magic or Bird as a team player. Like I said the game was decentralized before Wallton came up or when Wilt left the game. Walton also has Magic ahead of Bird.[/QUOTE]

Kareem's 70-73 stretch can go up against any player statistically and impact-wise. His playoff performances in his prime and overall resume can also stack up to anybody.

Kareem is definitely a Tier 1 player with a strong case for GOAT. I'm not saying he is GOAT but he's in the discussion along with Jordan and Russell IMO. Quite honestly I refuse to tank those 3 in any order. It's so difficult and they reach proved their GOAT status differently.

[QUOTE]Great enough that Barry could win it with teams worse than Kareem and Hayes could win it all in similar fashion. After '74 there were no consistent winners in the '70's. That's the time to assert yourself when its open like that. There is no five year span, '75 thru '79, where there is a greater opportunity to win a ring since '55 and maybe beyond that.[/QUOTE]

Elvin Hayes had Wes Unseld and Bob Dandridge in their absolute primes and a strong well-rounded cast. Sikma in Seattle had the best backcourt in the league. Ever heard of Gus Williams, Dennis Johnson, and "Downtown" Freddie Brown. They combined for 60+ ppg against Kareem's Lakers in the '78 and '79 playoffs and completely obliterated the LA backcourt.
[QUOTE]
Steals, after the game was decentralized on Kareem's watch, are more valuable than blocks are. A steal is a turnover and usually, when Magic did it, two points or three points on the other end. A block, unless its a Wilt/Russell block, is more than likely NOT a turnover, much less two or three points. As a value statement Magic's steals were one of the biggest defensive plays there was. Not only could it be a five point turn around but it was demoralizing and kept the offensive team on their heels. The other team took less chances and played more reserved because of fear of Magic's running ability. Magic affected offenses in ways that if you understand the game, were pretty thorough. And this is definitely under defense:[/QUOTE]

Sure that's true but you're quite alone in any assertion that Magic was a good let alone great defender.

[QUOTE]Like I said in another thread about the '85 finals. The reason the Celtic backcourt shot 20% and had seven turnovers while playing conservatively and nearly maxed out their fouls, was because of their responsibilities to contain Magic. Magic had totally devastated their backcourt and contributed to why Bird missed 17 shots. A lot of players could not play Magic's pace. [/QUOTE]

Magic had impact but in '85 he wasn't clearly better than Kareem. In the Finals Kareem was definitely better.

[QUOTE]If Kareem was ever to meet Magic in a series, in the 80's, Magic would trashed his team because Magic would have ran him into the ground or picked apart the four on five.[/QUOTE]

A team led by prime Kareem would be way better on defense and on the boards. Honestly they probably would cream Magic's team assuming equal talent. So would Wilt's, Shaq's, and Hakeem's teams. Big men have more impact.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]First of all, what are my other "alts?"

Secondly, evidently you haven't read any of the MANY other posts on topics like Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Love, Hakeem, Duncan, Moses, players from the 60's, great teams, and the MANY in which I have praised KAJ. In fact, I could probably go one for hours.

And no, you are no more of a "Wilt" fan than Dankok8 is a "Magic" fan.

And again, give me some actual research with legitimate arguments in any of these "discussions" instead of your mindless and endless OPINIONS.

NOT one person here has given me or anyone else ANY proof, which shows that a 76-77 KAJ was more at his PEAK, than a '70 thru '72 KAJ. NONE. Show me his statistical advantages. Show me his defensive impact. Give me that DOMINANCE that a YOUNG Kareem shredded the NBA with. Hell, even inhis ROOKIE season, he had the HIGHEST scoring POST-SEASON of his career, and it included a series against the reigning MVP. Then reality was, Kareem was FAR more dominant in those years in EVERY aspect of his game, including defense and TEAM success.

As for these RIDICULOUS Bird-Magic discussions...H2H's, TEAM SUCCESS, playoff H2H's, MVPs, FMVPs, overall post-season play...MAGIC, and by a MILE.

Now, get on with your life, and find something else in which you might actually be good at.[/QUOTE]

Magic is my favorite all-time player. I believe his 86-87 peak is among the greatest in history and his '87 Finals is maybe the greatest offensive/all-around title series performance ever. Nobody was a more effective or creative passer in league history and at his peak Magic had a damn fine half-court game.

However Magic >> Bird is revisionist history. As is this notion that Magic was clearly better than Kareem before 86-87. Not the case... I love Magic but I don't let my personal bias come in the way. You don't realize it most likely but you cherry-pick stats that suit you and ignore other data that doesn't not further your point. For example let's talk about Bird's '81 series vs. Philly, numerous series vs. the Bucks (except '83), '84 and '86 Finals, '88 series vs. Atlanta. Guess they never happened huh?