Where would Kobe rank in the 60s

[QUOTE=tpols]00 through 02 LA's biggest competition was out west.. where there were a ton of stacked teams.. Kings, Portland, Mavs, Spurs, etc How did Kobe do against those teams? He had monster series.

LA's Finals opponents were weak and really no match for LA at all. They won those Finals comfortably 12-3. So using Finals dropoff in that case is misleading.. the real Finals/competition were out west


Using last game of the series is also incredibly arbitrary.. why not use the first? Does how you open a series and set the tone not matter? What about stats from a pivotal game 3 or game 5? There's little logic to your method.


Magic played what 12 seasons? You can run through the 7 years where he lost and pin blame just like you did Kobe.. and since Kobe's career is much longer because he didnt get HIV he has a lot more years to pick at. You could pick apart any great that has a 15+ year career like that.. because for the majority of everyones career besides Bill Russell they were losing in some fashion.[/QUOTE]

And in two of the three Finals in which Kobe's Lakers actually faced a strong team, he completely folded his tent in them ('04 and '08.) And even in the one in which he was lucky enough to survive a game seven 6-24 performance, his shooting was horrific, and again, even worse in the critical game seven.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]The "clutch" Kobe...



Yep, conclusive proof that Kobe is the greatest Laker of all-time...[/QUOTE]
Certaintly greater than Wilt Chamberlain. At least Kobe didn't lose 5 playoff series with HCA and lose 4 NBA Finals series. You're the fan of the greatest choker of them all dude.

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Certaintly greater than Wilt Chamberlain. At least Kobe didn't lose 5 playoff series with HCA and lose 4 NBA Finals series. You're the fan of the greatest choker of them all dude.[/QUOTE]


ELIMINATION GAMES...

[QUOTE]Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds[/QUOTE]


Kobe...

[QUOTE]Kobe: 18 elimination games(8-10):
22.0 ppg, 5.7 reb, 3.4 ast, 1.0 stl, 0.67 blk, 41.6% FG, 77.6% FT, 25.9% 3pt
[/QUOTE]

I think you and I both KNOW who the greater "choker" REALLY was now, don't you?

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]ELIMINATION GAMES...




Kobe...



I think you and I both KNOW who the greater "choker" REALLY was now, don't you?[/QUOTE]
Tell me who has the highest choker rating of all-time?

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Tell me who has the highest choker rating of all-time?[/QUOTE]

Find me a LEGITIMATE ranking, and we'll compare.

If Russell is your "most Clutch" player of all-time, then the Russell-Wilt playoff H2H's make your silly "formula" look damned foolish, doesn't it?

[QUOTE]I believe his "Choker ranking" has Russell as ahead of everyone, with the lowest ranking.

'60 EDF's:
Russell's 59-16 TEAM beats Wilt's 49-26 TEAM, 4-2.
Russell''s edge in HOFers: 7-3
Russell: 20.7 ppg, 23.1 rpg, .446 FG%
Wilt: 30.2 ppg, 27.5 rpg, .500 FG%

'62 EDF's:
Russell's 60-20 TEAM beats Wilt's 49-31 TEAM, 4-3 (game seven by 2 pts.)
Russell's edge in HOFers: 7-3
Russell: 22.0 ppg, 25.9 rpg, .399 FG%
Wilt: 33.6 ppg, 26.9 rpg, .468 FG%

'64 Finals:
Russell's 59-21 TEAM beat Wilt's 48-32 TEAM, 4-1.
Russell's edge in HOFers: 8-2
Russell: 11.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, .386 FG%
Wilt: 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 FG%

'65 EDF's:
Russell's 62-18 TEAM beat Wilt's 40-40 TEAM, 4-3 (game seven by 1 pt.)
Russell's edge in HOFers: 6-3
Russell: 15.6 ppg, 25.3 rpg, .447 FG%
Wilt: 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 FG%

'66 EDF's:
Russell's 54-26 TEAM beats Wilt's 55-25 TEAM, 4-1.
Russell's edge in HOFers: 5-4
Russell: 14.0 ppg, 26.2 rpg, .451 FG%
Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, .509 FG%

'67 EDF's:
Russell's 60-21 TEAM loses to Wilt's 68-13 TEAM, 4-1.
Russell's edge in HOFers: 7-4
Russell: 10.2 ppg, 23.4 rpg, .358 FG%
Wilt: 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, .556 FG%

'68 EDF's:
Russell's 54-28 TEAM beats Wilt's 62-20 TEAM, 4-3 (game seven by 4 pts.)
sidenote: HALF of Wilt's KEY players are injured, as is Wilt, himself.
Russell's edge in HOFers: 6-4
Russell: 13.7 ppg, 23.9 rpg, .440 FG%
Wilt: 22.1 ppg, 25.1 rpg, .487 FG%

'69 Finals:
Russell's 48-34 TEAM beats Wilt's 55-27 TEAM, 4-3 (Game seven by 2 pts.)
Russell's edge in HOFers: 5-3
Russell: 9.1 ppg, 21.3 rpg, .397 FG%
Wilt: 11.7 ppg, 25.0 rpg, .500 FG%

So much for that "CHOKER RANKING."[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Find me a LEGITIMATE ranking, and we'll compare.

If Russell is your "most Clutch" player of all-time, then Russell-Wilt playoff H2H's make your silly "formula" damned foolish doesn't it?[/QUOTE]
Takes all your statistics available and add ups all the drop-offs from regular season to playoffs and finals. Guess who was number 1?

[B]6-5 elgin baylor averaged nearly 40ppg... grabbed like 20rpg


and he was a smaller, less skilled, less athletic 1st generation generic version of kobe/mj


kobe would probably play in the post. never be tempted by the three pointer. his fg% would sky rocket due to only thinking about efficient shots and not showing off

he would probably average 46ppg on 58% fg's on mostly post ups/layups/dunks... he'd average 15-17rpg also

yall kidding yourself if you think otherwise [/B]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Takes all your statistics available and add ups all the drop-offs from regular season to playoffs and finals. Guess who was number 1?[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]And that doesn't include the fact that Chamberlain was wiping the floor with the likes of Russell, Reed, and Kareem in those games, either.

Sure doesn't speak well for that half-baked formula does it?

Of course, a formula that considers a decline in scoring from 50 ppg down to 35 ppg, as a NEGATIVE (and rewards a player who raises his ppg from 10 to 15 ppg) is really a reach. Nor does that ridiculous formula take into account the DEFENSIVE impact of a player, either. A Wilt who was outscoring his opposing centers by a 30-10 ppg margin in his 11 "at the limit" playoff games, doesn't get credit for that DEFENSE. Or a Wilt who held outshot Thurmond by margins of .500 to .392; .611 to .373; and .560 to .343...gets punished because his regular season averages were higher in two of those series. Same against Russell, when he outshot him by margins of .468 to .399; .500 to .397; .517 to .386; .555 to .447; and .556 to .358 (but gets punished because in only one did he raise his numbers over his regular season average.) Or holding Kareem to two series of .481 and .457 shooting, in seasons in which KAJ shot .577 and .574 in the regular season.

Nor does it take into account Wilt oushooting his opposing centers in nearly everyone of his 29 post-season series, AND, outrebounding them in EVERY one.

And a Chamberlain, who averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 (in post-season NBAs that shot .420 in that span) in his first 67 playoff games...is considered a "choker" by that formula because his numbers declined from his regular season averages...DESPITE the fact that he faced RUSSELL and the greatest dynasty in NBA history in 35 of those games, and Thurmond in six more (just ask KAJ about Thurmond.)

Or that Wilt's scoring numbers are completely distorted because he only played 52 playoff games, out of his 160, in his "scoring" seasons. And that he faced a HOF starting center in 105 of those 160 games, and a multiple all-star in another 26.

Or that his formula doesn't punish you if your team loses in the first round, but it clearly does if you put up huge first round numbers, and then decline as you move to the Finals. Nor does the formula take into account how a player's TEAMMATES perform. Even if a player plays well in a playoff series, but his teammates puke all over the floor, and his team loses with HCA, well, it goes against HIM.

And one more time, he faced RUSSELL in EIGHT playoff series. Look up MJ's scoring and FG%'s in the FOUR series he had against the "Bad Boys" from '88 thru '91 (and really, the Pistons were a shell in that last one); or Shaq's scoring and FG%'s in his FIVE series against the Spurs from '99 thru '04. And how about Kareem's HUGE decline in his FIVE playoff series against Thurmond and Wilt, when his ppg dropped from nearly 33 ppg in the regular season, down to 26 ppg in those five series, and his FG% dropped from his regular season average of .563 in that span, down to .450 against Thurmond and Wilt.

Sorry, but that "formula" is a POS.[/QUOTE]

Again...a POS!

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]And in two of the three Finals in which Kobe's Lakers actually faced a strong team, he completely folded his tent in them ('04 and '08.) And even in the one in which he was lucky enough to survive a game seven 6-24 performance, his shooting was horrific, and again, even worse in the critical game seven.[/QUOTE]

For all the times you bring up Wilt's teammates FG's its funny you dont mention everyone outside shaq and kobe shot like dogshit against detroit. Detroit that year had a case for best defense of all time. They iso'ed shaq with a 6'7 Ben Wallace and manned everyone else up with some of the best perimeter defense ever seen. Detroit didnt just shut down Kobe and LA.. they shut down everybody. They were holding all opponents to record breaking lows.

And the 08 Celtics are also one of the best defenses of all time. They had KG quarterbacking and shutting down/intimidating Pau off his game and some of the best perimeter defenders in the league in tony allen/posey/rondo.. as well as a slew of other great defenders.


Is it just a coincidence that Kobe's worst series came against some of the best defenses of all time?

Why are you bringing up Wilt's stats? He was a known statpadder, boxscore checker, egomaniac. Bill Russel was voted as a better player than Wilt in years he doubled Bill's scoring. Wonder why?

Maybe because Wilts stats came at the expense of everyone else..

[QUOTE=tpols]Why are you bringing up Wilt's stats? He was a known statpadder, boxscore checker, egomaniac. Bill Russel was voted as a better player than Wilt in years he doubled Bill's scoring. Wonder why?

Maybe because Wilts stats came at the expense of everyone else..[/QUOTE]

Chamberlain was held a 7-2 margin in FIRST TEAM ALL-NBA selections over Russell in their TEN years in the league together...

And he won an MVP over Russell in his ROOKIE year, was robbed of it two years later even though his numbers were even more staggering, then proceeded to RUN AWAY with the MVP balloting three straight years in the mid-60's.

Virtually no one had Russell ahead of Wilt from the mid-60's on.

[QUOTE=tpols]For all the times you bring up Wilt's teammates FG's its funny you dont mention everyone outside shaq and kobe shot like dogshit against detroit. Detroit that year had a case for best defense of all time. They iso'ed shaq with a 6'7 Ben Wallace and manned everyone else up with some of the best perimeter defense ever seen. Detroit didnt just shut down Kobe and LA.. they shut down everybody. They were holding all opponents to record breaking lows.

And the 08 Celtics are also one of the best defenses of all time. They had KG quarterbacking and shutting down/intimidating Pau off his game and some of the best perimeter defenders in the league in tony allen/posey/rondo.. as well as a slew of other great defenders.


Is it just a coincidence that Kobe's worst series came against some of the best defenses of all time?[/QUOTE]

Russell's Celtics, the ENTIRE decade of the 60's had the highest defensive ranked team in the league, and some by huge margins.

But, Chamberlain outplayed Russell in every one of their EIGHT post-season series, and some by staggering margins, and carried putrid rosters to within an eye lash of beating the greatest dynasty in the history of the NBA, FOUR times...AND, in fact, DID beat them (and BADLY) in one.

But, yes, let's compare a Kobe averaging 23 ppg on a .387 FG% against the under-dog Pistons, and in a series blowout loss, ..to Wilt averaging a 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and a .555 FG%, while taking a 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics, and on their home floor.

Ok time to stop trolling and think about this normally.
Obviously inflated amount of possessions so we add at least 10+ ppg to kobe's career, now obviously he wouldn't sit for 2 first years, so we have a 40 ppg
His FG% would be better obviously due to lack of 3pt line, so we have 55+%
Rebounds would rise up, inflation of possessions too. 10+-
Assists is the only question, would he be a willing passer, or would he score even more given the mismatches
so we have 40-45 ppg 10-12 rpg, 5-8 apg on 55% EASY

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Chamberlain was held a 7-2 margin in FIRST TEAM ALL-NBA selections over Russell in their TEN years in the league together...

And he won an MVP over Russell in his ROOKIE year, was robbed of it two years later even though his numbers were even more staggering, then proceeded to RUN AWAY with the MVP balloting three straight years in the mid-60's.

Virtually no one had Russell ahead of Wilt from the mid-60's on.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_35th_Anniversary_Team[/url]
[quote]Bill Russell, voted the greatest player of the NBA’s first 35 years[/quote]
Boiled down:

Bill: 11
Wilt: 2

[QUOTE=SexSymbol]Ok time to stop trolling and think about this normally.
Obviously inflated amount of possessions so we add at least 10+ ppg to kobe's career, now obviously he wouldn't sit for 2 first years, so we have a 40 ppg
His FG% would be better obviously due to lack of 3pt line, so we have 55+%
Rebounds would rise up, inflation of possessions too. 10+-
Assists is the only question, would he be a willing passer, or would he score even more given the mismatches
so we have 40-45 ppg 10-12 rpg, 5-8 apg on 55% EASY[/QUOTE]


His FG%'s would DECLINE...BIG TIME. He has been playing in an NBA which has shot an eFG% of .480-.500 his entire career. In the 60's, the NBA had eFG%'s of, on average, .435, with early seasons of less than .400.

GREAT shooters, like West struggled in the early 60's. Hell, CHAMBERLAIN had a season of .461. If Wilt was shooting .461 in a league, then Kobe likely would have been competing with Guy Rodgers's FG%'s.