Coach Thibbs: "When Jordan was playing..."

[QUOTE=3ball]

Today's players take an optimal shot allocation of 3-pointers[/quote]

this is EXACTLY why jordan would be shooting at a lower clip. the 3PT shot, while not a weakness of his, wasn't exactly his strong suit either. jordan would be more of a jump shooter in today's league. not just that, though. today's best defenses are around a 102 DRTG mark. on average, jordan shot ~40% against defenses with a 102 defensive rating or lower (look it up).

today he would be playing against defenses that actually trap, double team, zone CONSISTENTLY - hence a lower shooting percentage.

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[B][SIZE="4"]Jordan Scoring On Grant Hill Easily[/SIZE][/B] (barely having to dribble)


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[QUOTE=mehyaM24]just read what former players and coaches have to say about yesteryears defensive schemes:[/QUOTE]

I could easily post dozens of quotes from past and current players (ie, Kobe) and even the NBA officials responsible for the rule changes who say it's much easier now on players and the league is soft. So what? Can you make arguments for yourself?

[QUOTE]here, we see that you cannot double team a perimeter player without the ball in their hands, which in turn makes it more difficult to play help defense[/QUOTE]

Several teams (most notably the Knicks) used the strategy of doubling Jordan off the ball regularly. Bruce Blitz had a video on his page showing many examples. I don't feel like looking it up but feel free.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]I could easily post dozens of quotes from past and current players (ie, Kobe) and even the NBA officials responsible for the rule changes who say it's much easier now on players and the league is soft. So what? Can you make arguments for yourself?[/quote]

i get that jordan fans dont want to let go and are hung up on mythology, but the fact is, defenses are better now. a few months back, pj carlesimo stated that today's defensive and offensive schemes are lightyears ahead of the 70s, 80s and early 90s (srs). as in, they actually play it now. watching the ball get flipped and skipped around the perimeter, and inside and out, until somebody gets an open set-shot, that's all great and impressive in its way (see Spurs), but watching players having create enough space to get a shot off, and watching them sink jumpers under extreme, distress - that's the goods.

those player/coach quotes merely back my opinions. read the thread over again.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]just read what former players and coaches have to say about yesteryears defensive schemes: [B]“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says.[/B][/QUOTE]
EFG% by decade:
2010s: .497
2000s: .484
1990s: .488
1980s: .491

TS% by decade:
2010s: .537
2000s: .529
1990s: .532
1980s: .537

Pace adjusted scoring:
2010s: 100.69
2000s: 99.6
1990s: 101.08
1980s: 101.06

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]I could easily post dozens of quotes from past and current players (ie, Kobe) and even the NBA officials responsible for the rule changes who say it's much easier now on players and the league is soft. So what? Can you make arguments for yourself?



Several teams (most notably the Knicks) used the strategy of doubling Jordan off the ball regularly. Bruce Blitz had a video on his page showing many examples. I don't feel like looking it up but feel free.[/QUOTE]

no they didn't. it was against the rules. posting a few clips doesn't mean anything when i can just as easily (as i did) post videos of no help defense without the ball (listen to red kerr talk about doubling bird) and illegal defensive violations (the norm in that era).

call me jose raul capablanca....that right there is a checkmate.

[QUOTE=3ball]It's a zero-sum game.

The rules have changed, so of course there are things you can do defensively in today's game that you couldn't do in previous eras.

But there are an equal number of things today's defenders [I]can't[/I] do, that they [i]could[/i] in previous eras (i.e. camp in the paint to AWAIT penetration as opposed to having to come help.... be much more physical).

This zero-sum game is evidenced in the NUMBERS - league-wide points-per-possession is the same as it was 30 years ago.

As a sidenote, I think Thibs is wrong here anyway and was probably just giving some red meat to an ignorant reporter - because it's clear as day - the defenders were already there AWAITING the penetrator, so there was no need to bring anyone over from the weak side anyway.

Like, I literally have 150 more of these showing the defender already there, waiting...

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_showing_the_of_ad54d908ed26a7b5c927e16a93d1d5fd.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]


So wrong. Again.

Thibs completely revolutionized defense in the NBA. The mere suggestion that you think it is a possibility that you know more than he does is strikingly comical to those of us who know the game (and know you do not).

I can't imagine you even know what the defensive help rules were.

In today's NBA the average ISO manages to score ~.54 points/possession. That is WAY less than HALF the efficiency of a pass to a cutter. In MJs day the NBA NEEDED superstars and the rules made it FAR more difficult to defend them. ISO plays by the best players were among the most efficient usages of a possession. You CERTAINLY couldn't frontside help, etc. This is why when MJ was off scoring 37ppg 37 players averaged 20ppg or more. Kiki Vandegwe avg 27. Walter Davis was going for 24. Basketball was simple. Give the ball to your best player. Thats your best offense. Now the defense is allowed to provide strongside help, shade off lesser offensive players, etc. And individuals simply cannot beat defenses. Now offenses have to misdirect and attack defenses on the weakside. In 2012-13 the number of 20ppg scorers was all the way down to 9. There is just no argument to be made that English could score 29ppg in today's game. So yes, OF COURSE any player who had tremendous one on one skill has their impact magnified in that game over the game today.

[QUOTE=3ball]One coach giving his opinion on one specific type of play is not thread-worthy.
[/QUOTE]

okay, so you're saying we should listen to you...over a guy every exec in the league would agree is the best defensive coach in the NBA?

k.

[QUOTE=Inactive]
Pace adjusted scoring:
2010s: 100.69
2000s: 99.6
1990s: 101.08
1980s: 101.06[/QUOTE]

you're making my point for me. without adjusting for pace, please list the league averages from the 80s and 90s.

[QUOTE=Inactive]EFG% by decade:
2010s: .497
2000s: .484
1990s: .488
1980s: .491

TS% by decade:
2010s: .537
2000s: .529
1990s: .532
1980s: .537

Pace adjusted scoring:
2010s: 100.69
2000s: 99.6
1990s: 101.08
1980s: 101.06[/QUOTE]

Last season set the all time record for highest league wide eFG%. Perimeter players collectively are scoring more and shooting better than they have in past eras, by a large margin.

[QUOTE]no they didn't. it was against the rules. posting a few clips doesn't mean anything when i can just as easily (as i did) post videos of no help defense without the ball (listen to red kerr talk about doubling bird) and illegal defensive violations (the norm in that era).

call me jose raul capablanca....that right there is a checkmate.[/QUOTE]

:lol

You're playing checkers son, and you're not even good at that. You're lucky I'm on my way out or I'd serve you up an Old Fashioned batch of Dadda's vintage homemade ether. Maybe when I get home tonight, we'll see.

Did anyone actually read the article? They're talking about offenses changing, not defenses getting harder. It's more team oriented now. Jordan didn't have shooters all over the floor that he could pass to. He had to shoot the ball and carry his team. I thought it was pretty well known that Jordan did more for his team than anyone else?

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Last season set the all time record for highest league wide eFG%. Perimeter players collectively are scoring more and shooting better than they have in past eras, by a large margin.



:lol

You're playing checkers son, and you're not even good at that. You're lucky I'm on my way out or I'd serve you up an Old Fashioned batch of Dadda's vintage homemade ether. Maybe when I get home tonight, we'll see.[/QUOTE]

i've provided multiple gifs, league sources, data, and quotes from former players and coaches.

in short, you're in over your head.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]i've provided multiple gifs, league sources, data, and quotes from former players and coaches.

in short, you're in over your head.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

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[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]"When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five."[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=mehyaM24]you're making my point for me. without adjusting for pace, please list the league averages from the 80s and 90s.[/QUOTE]How does that make your point? If teams scored the same amount per possession 30 years ago as they do today, how can you say today's defenses are better? Teams take more time to get a shot up than they did in the 80s, but they're just as likely to make it.