Navigation Efficiency

[QUOTE=Mass Debator]

You know how difficult it is to call those travels in real time? Anyway, on that oldies clip, you can see how the player was unable to contour his body and set his feet properly to perform an explosive move. Back then, they didn't go low enough with the dribble and didn't have enough control and power on wide steps. You couldn't train or had difficulty training on these skills due to a lack of examples and inventions. It isn't too much about the referees letting it slide nowadays as much as it is that these 60s/70s players weren't exposed to such creativity yet. It wasn't a problem though because their defensive techniques weren't as advanced either. This is no knock on anyone as great players will always remain great based on the circumstance that surrounded them. I always rank players based on how dominant they were against their peers anyway. The main point is that in real time, these modern-era moves involving gathers and such is a pain to judge accurately. You don't blow the whistle on things you are iffy about.

[/QUOTE]
taking 3 steps with one dribble is not a creative move... not at all.... you see the junior highers itt doing it as a standard... elementary school kids too - there's plenty of footage of 5th graders doing it... it's done literally dozens of times per game, maybe over a hundred times per game.

the reason they didn't do it in the 60's is because carrying and travelling would be called.

if any of the moves in these gifs were done in the 60's, the whistle would have been blown [I]instantly[/I].

btw, your defensive techniques don't have to be advanced if you don't have to guard 3-pointers and can camp in the lane.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]no, you can't set them aside. not happening.[/QUOTE]
I'm not setting them aside, just meant for the sake of that post. :cheers:

I have both as unquestionably as among the best 4 players ever (with KAJ/MJ). Was just mourning the lack of tape.

[QUOTE]

btw, your defensive techniques don't have to be advanced if you don't have to guard 3-pointers and can camp in the lane.

[/QUOTE]
like, if the league were to call the Cavs before their next game and say:

"[I]Hey Dan, we're going to remove defensive 3 seconds for one game, so your guys can camp in the lane just for this one game.... oh, and we're going to remove the 3-point line entirely for this one game too[/I]."

all of a sudden, all the "advanced strategy" of today's defenses goes out the window... not needed... it was only invented in the first place so defenders could cover the extra ground required to guard 3-pointers and defend effectively despite having to stay out of the lane.
.

[QUOTE=3ball]taking 3 steps with one dribble is not a creative move... not at all.... you see the junior highers itt doing it as a standard... elementary school kids too - there's plenty of footage of 5th graders doing it... it's done literally dozens of times per game, maybe over a hundred times per game.

the reason they didn't do it in the 60's is because carrying and travelling would be called.

if any of the moves in these gifs were done in the 60's, the whistle would have been blown [I]instantly[/I].

btw, your defensive techniques don't have to be advanced if you don't have to guard 3-pointers and can camp in the lane.[/QUOTE]
So are you implying that they were taught to do 3 steps, are purposely doing it, or referees just don't care about it? Have you ever done a cross right into a layup or dunk? There's a very fine line at when the ball is back in your hands and controlled before the 2 steps is counted. I bet 60s players rarely did a cross to a layup if ever. I'm serious about that too.

You're exaggerating everything due to ease of ability to seek specific highlights in the modern day era. I advise you to go watch a full game of AI and chances are he does that 3-step travel 0 to only once per game. Players do perform such illegal moves from time to time, but if you ever refereed at any level, it's pretty difficult to call a lot of things and this is one of them. They even can't get a definitive decision on Ray Allen's 3-pointer against the Spurs even in super slow motion.

You think a player from the 60s can guard someone like Kobe one on one? These 60s players are never low with their legs spread out when guarding someone. And the skill involving efficient feet placement when laterally moving isn't something that was too good back then.

I repeat, I am no way bringing down the 60s but the game has evolved and nothing is wrong with that.

[QUOTE=Mass Debator]

So are you implying that they were taught to do 3 steps, are purposely doing it

[/quote]
exactly.


[quote]

Have you ever done a cross right into a layup or dunk?

[/quote]
the crossover for a dunk (one dribble, 3 steps, just like all the GIFs) is my favorite move now that i'm old - it's very hard for me to dunk on guys off two feet anymore, so using a move where i can end up taking off the left leg and be in-stride with max momentum is the easiest way for me to catch a guy at my age.... this is how standard the move is in today's game.


[QUOTE]

You're exaggerating everything

[/QUOTE]
not one iota - do you think those are the only GIF's of that move??... there are DOZENS AND DOZENS EVERY GAME.... here's nash going BEHIND THE BACK with his one dribble, then he takes the 3 steps..


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/422bf41d001ec44eef96030dd771d7fb.gif[/IMG]


[QUOTE]

I advise you to go watch a full game of AI and chances are he does that 3-step travel 0 to only once per game. Players do perform such illegal moves from time to time, but if you ever refereed at any level, it's pretty difficult to call a lot of things and this is one of them.

[/QUOTE]
refereeing is really really really hard..

but you lost me here - you simply have a knowledge deficit as it relates to footwork - guys do this move DOZENS of times per game - how is it the move doesn't look VERY familiar to you?

[B]and btw, it hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet, but you don't have to crossover to do the move - the MOST COMMON one-dribble, 3-step move is when the players is going the same direction... here's lebron from last night - this move is done dozens and dozens of times per game - one dribble, 3 steps.. all day long:

[/B]
[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f67477ea5be0a4eec82c0dcb6f210474.gif[/IMG]


like, if you are a ref for decent players, like good high school comp or better, and you think all the GIFs itt are a travel, than you miss a TON of calls in your reffing.

(and actually, the lebron move above is how i dunk on most guys - i don't have the blazing speed to blow by guys cause i'm older, but i have a lot of hesitation moves off the dribble and moves where i can upfake the defender while dribbling to give me the step - obviously, i don't get up like lebron does here, but i get up)


[quote]

You think a player from the 60s can guard someone like Kobe one on one?

[/quote]
guys today can't guard 36 year old kobe 1-on-1 let alone prime, 81 point kobe.

and yes, the athletic guards and wings of the day back then would absolutely be able to do the same job that guys do today... it would be a little easier overall actually, because the rim protection was much better back then.

I don't consider the last Lebron dunk you posted as travelling. I consider this what I call game slippage. Most of the time the ball hitting the ground and the gather step are not totally in sync and I don't have any problem with that. It's really obvious in the slow motion, but in real time, you can barely notice it. I don't think this gets called in the 60s. I can tell you for sure it doesn't get called in the late 70s in Europe.

As for Nash's move - to me this is a travelling. But I guess it depends on which step do you consider to be the gather step. The idea behind calling it a non travel is that the gather happens only when he gathers the ball with both hands, since he could still continue his dribble when he planted his left foot for the first time. I don't really agree with this definition. To me the gather happened on the step where the dribbling actually stopped. But I guess this really isn't a problem as long as it's called the same for al the players. Which it does in NBA, not so much in Europe.

I had a similar discussion about James Harden's eurostep a couple of weeks ago. I do not agree with what seems to be now the official application of this rule, but as long as there is no strict definition of when gather really happens, it's up to the refs to call it as they want.

.
[B]MJ's 1989 vs. Lebron's 2009
[/B]

[I]The fact that Jordan's 33/8/8/54 in 1989 resulted in only 47 wins, while Lebron's 28/8/7/49 in 2009 resulted in 66 wins, can only mean MJ either had a weaker supporting cast or played tougher competition, or both.. Regardless, we have proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:
[/I]
We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

[COLOR="Navy"]If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast)[/COLOR], then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s]MJ faced[/url] were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and 1 man show he that was is underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.



[B]Average wins of opponents during MJ's 24 game stretch at PG and Lebron's 12 game stretch
[/B]

Seattle: 47
Indiana: 28
Cleveland: 57
New York: 52
Indiana: 28
Lakers: 57
Phoenix: 55
Portland: 39
Seattle: 47
Warriors: 43
Bucks: 49
Cleveland: 57
New Jersey: 26
Charlotte: 20
Detroit: 63
Detroit: 63
Atlanta: 52
Indiana: 28
New Jersey: 26
Cleveland: 57
New York: 52
Washington: 40
Washington: 40
Cleveland: 57
______________
[COLOR="Blue"]45 win average[/COLOR]




Lakers: 57
OKC: 50
Miami: 47
MIN: 15
IND: 32
LAC: 29
MEM: 40
MIA: 47
NYK: 29
New Jersey: 12
Orlando: 59
____________
[COLOR="Red"]34 win average[/COLOR]


[I]It's common knowledge that the 1989 Eastern Conference was much tougher than the 2009 or 2010, but here's the data anyway (above) proving that MJ faced the tougher stretch of competition
[/I]
So considering MJ's competition was much tougher, then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition.

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast WAS better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans with better stats, which is a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s]MJ faced[/url] were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast.

Btw, MJ's stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games destroys Lebron's little run of 12 games anyway - this shouldn't even be debatable.. And MJ's stretch was twice as long, against 45-win competition, not 34-win like Lebron.



[B]Pippen vs. Worthy or any atg that was good right away
[/B]

[I]It's about even and the Pippen backers are being results-oriented and using a bad way of evaluating it by only contemplating the MJ-developed Pippen.. But if you're being realistic and considering how they would do if they were drafted by 100 different teams, Worthy was the better player.[/I]

Pippen was a raw, undeveloped player, who needed to find the right situation to develop the most he was capable - this is proven with the 1988 Laker example.

If he were drafted to a good team like the 88' Lakers, he'd never get to play - that championship roster of veteran all-stars had no room for a 7.9 ppg rookie, so and much of Pippen's early development would be pushed back a few years or never occur - either way, he'd be less likely to develop the maximum he was capable on the Lakers or any good team.

If he was drafted to any variety of bad teams, he wouldn't develop the same way that he did alongside MJ - much of Pippen's value was his defense - he simply wouldn't have developed the same way on that end alongside Barkley or Magic as he did alongside MJ, the dpoy winner in Pippen's rookie year..

And most significant is the offensive end - Pippen was BAD his first couple years - he had no moves, bad handle, sloppy, scrawny, rigid.. bad shooter..[I] But look how much he improved - then look at who he was watching every single day on and off the court.. [/I]He's simply NOT going to improve that much offensively alongside Barkley as he did alongside the goat.. And as for Magic - I'm sure Pippen would improve OFF-ball alongside him, but there was only 1 primary ballhandler on the Lakers... :confusedshrug:
.

[QUOTE=3ball]doesn't really matter - it's all semantics - the 3-step, one-dribble move is done every other play in today's game.[/QUOTE]
I think it actually does. I don't think Lebron gained any advantage using that move. Nothing changes if he syncs his gather step with his dribble. Nash on the other hand takes 3 full steps and evades another dribble he should've taken.

[QUOTE=3ball]
[B]and let me tell you something - if lebron is forced to take another dribble there, that slows him down significantly and he doesn't generate the same momentum to go up nearly as explosively as he did - but that's the circumstance guys were in back in the 60's (where their explosiveness is hindered because they must take an extra dribble, or get called for travel and carry).
[/B][/QUOTE]
I don't agree. The extra dribble doesn't slow him down at all. It does however give Calderon a chance to steal the ball, but that's not the topic of discussion. You sometimes see guys like Lebron and Westbrook dunking after taking only one step after they gather the ball, so the number of the steps taken is not the only factor.

I agree with you that the rules today allow for more dunking. But there are also other reasons. I believe the average level of athleticism is higher today, mostly because the talent pool is so much bigger and because athleticism is regarded more important when drafting players. Not to mention that today there is more weightlifting and plyometrics training, which improves players explosiveness tremendously. Another factor is dunking is considered a cool thing today and everybody wants to do it. There are 5'5 guys on youtube that perform alley oop dunks and youtube is full of guys under 6'0 with crazy athleticism who perform amazing dunks. Then there's PEDs which are better and more easily available as they used to be.

[QUOTE=iznogood]

You sometimes see guys like Lebron and Westbrook dunking after taking only one step after they gather the ball, so the number of the steps taken is not the only factor.

[/QUOTE]
yeah, and when they do, they have less explosiveness than otherwise.

in those spots, they look more like elgin baylor, because that's how he dunked.

[QUOTE=3ball]yeah, and when they do, they have less explosiveness than otherwise.

in those spots, they look more like elgin baylor, because that's how he dunked.[/QUOTE]
Baylor was without a doubt a formidable athlete, but his dunks don't look nothing like Westbrook's.

Here's a dunk he does after taking only one step after gathering the ball.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X42udSG_HB0#t=2m28s[/url]
Than there's a couple more in that same video where he takes two full steps, which is legal by any rules. It doesn't get any more explosive than that. Then there's Rose, who doesn't dunk as powerful, but gets up even higher. Even Nate Robinson who is only 5'9 makes crazy dunks after taking only 2 steps.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f67477ea5be0a4eec82c0dcb6f210474.gif[/IMG]
:lol

I'm seeing it, i'm not believing it. Like the traveling the using of his off arm to push away defenders wasn't bad enough, now dude can slap people out of the way.


NBE 2015 Slapping edition!

[QUOTE=iznogood]

Here's a dunk westbrook does after taking only one step after gathering the ball.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X42udSG_HB0#t=2m28s[/url]

[B]It doesn't get any more explosive than that.
[/B]
[/quote]
lol, are you serious... you know who invented that particular dunk?

Michael Jordan... he invented the lean-in dunk that you posted of westbrook... and actually, not a lot of guys do that dunk consistently - westbrook is one of those guys... but c'mon, westbrook is giving 1000% to get the explosion he gets - Jordan exceeds that explosion and makes it look so much easier.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBQx6MRqXZg&t=0m41s[/url]

westbrook's dunk over omer asik is an example (it's queued in the link above) - he has to strain his absolute hardest and he barely sneaks it in.... Jordan throws that down cleanly, super-hard and with super-ease - westbrook's explosion is a dimension or two below Jordan... [B]for every Westbrook dunk, Jordan has 3... literally - Westbrook gets 50 dunks per season and Jordan got 150 per - we have dunking data for Jordan here:...[/b] [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399[/url]


[quote]

Baylor was without a doubt a formidable athlete, but his dunks don't look nothing like Westbrook's.

[/QUOTE]
[B]have you checked out the rest of the thread?... because it has been demonstrated that the explosiveness of players in the 60's was hampered by restrictions on ball-handling - go re-read the OP - that's the entire point of the thread... the rules back then prevented guys from having all the moves guys have today - so for you to go back to the whole "[I]players today are more explosive[/I]" line - you are just cluttering the thread with shallowness.[/B]

also, elgin was 6'5"... and not like, austin rivers 6'5" (a very diminutive 6'5" due to tiny bone structure), but a huge, powerful 6'5"....

and he averaged 39 points and 19 rebounds per game, while playing Wilt and Bill Russell 24 times per regular season (that's 30% of his regular season games).

i'm going to be completely honest, and i should have said this right away when you brought up westie - but westie does not compare to elgin at all.

westie displays more hops, but that is only because guys today are allowed to dribble better, and that affects hops... elgin baylor's strength, power and finesse would be unmatched at the guard position in today's game, and if he dribbled like today's player and used today's moves, you would see the same highlights out of him that you see out of westbrook.

[QUOTE=3ball]if he dribbled like today's player and used today's moves, you would see the same highlights out of him that you see out of westbrook.[/QUOTE]
Oh you mean if only he has Westbrooks' skills. Damn if only Howard has good post moves or make free throw like Yao, he could be dominating. :lol

[QUOTE=iamgine]Oh you mean if only he has Westbrooks' skills. Damn if only Howard has good post moves or make free throw like Yao, he could be dominating. :lol[/QUOTE]
shows how little you understand about basketball that you think westbrook's skills are as good as elgin's.

even without being allowed to dribble like today's players, elgin was better and more skilled.

[QUOTE=3ball]lol, are you serious... you know who invented this dunk?

Michael Jordan... he invented the lean-in dunk that you posted of westbrook... and actually, not a lot of guys do that dunk consistently - westbrook is one of those guys... but c'mon, westbrook is giving 1000% to get the explosion he gets - Jordan exceeds that explosion and makes it look so much easier.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBQx6MRqXZg&t=0m41s[/url]

westbrook's dunk over omer asik is an example (it's queued in the link above) - he has to strain his absolute hardest and he barely sneaks it in.... Jordan throws that down cleanly, super-hard and with super-ease - westbrook's explosion is a dimension or two below Jordan... [B]for every Westbrook dunk, Jordan has 3... literally.[/B][/QUOTE]
This is ridiculous, are you saying that you can judge the amount of effort someone gave in just from looking the video? Nice job! :applause:
And it doesn't even matter who invented that dunk. Why are you even bringing Jordan into this discussion? This was about comparing Westbrook and Baylor. Westbrook took 2 steps for most of the dunks he took in the video and that that's the same amount of steps Baylor was allowed to take, yet Westbrooks dunks are so much more athletic it's not even comparable.
[QUOTE=3ball]
[B]have you checked out the rest of the thread?... because it has been demonstrated that the explosiveness of players in the 60's was hampered by restrictions on ball-handling - go re-read the OP - that's the entire point of the thread... the rules back then prevented guys from having all the moves guys have today - so for you to go back to the whole "[I]players today are more explosive[/I]" line - you are just cluttering the thread with shallowness.[/B]

also, elgin was 6'5"... and not like, austin rivers 6'5" (a very diminutive 6'5" due to tiny bone structure), but a huge, powerful 6'5"....

and he averaged 39 points and 19 rebounds per game, while playing Wilt and Bill Russell 24 times per regular season (that's 30% of his regular season games).

i'm going to be completely honest, and i should have said this right away when you brought up westie - but westie does not compare to elgin at all.

westie displays more hops, but that is only because guys today are allowed to dribble better, and that affects hops... elgin baylor's strength, power and finesse would be unmatched at the guard position in today's game, and if he dribbled like today's player and used today's moves, you would see the same highlights out of him that you see out of westbrook.[/QUOTE]

You are grasping straws here, my friend. I just proved you Westbrook needed same amount of steps to pull of much crazier dunks, yet you claimed his dunks when he took the same amount of steps would look much more like Elgin's, which is as far from the truth as it could be. You were proved wrong, yet you're cycling and repeating the same thing. That's no way to argue.

Now you're restoring to the argument that Baylor was bigger and the type of dribbling that was allowed was holding him back? So he was basically the size of Andre Iguodala, yet his dunks don't look nothing like Andre's. He doesn't even get the explosiveness Lebron, Jeff Green or some other athletic forwards, who are even bigger than him.

And if you're claiming the dribbling rules are holding him back, then show me some clips of him finishing on the alley oop. No dribbling needed here, agreed?