All Jordan FG's With Kobe Defending

[QUOTE=3ball]Pippen is included, because we're comparing ALL wing talent from the 1996-1998 period to other periods... we're comparing eras.

btw, if your list is from 03-05', then you can't include durant... you can include lebron/melo, but they are only rookies in 2004, and not all-star-caliber - lebron shot 48% TS in 2004 and missed the playoffs.

and if you are going to use 2nd year players, then i can use Kobe, who was an all-star and in his 2nd season in 1998, while Iverson was averaging 24 ppg.


1996 Scottie Pippen................ 2005 Lebron James
1996 Grant Hill...................... 2003 Tracy McGrady
1996 Penny Hardaway............ 2005 Dwayne Wade
1996 Clyde Drexler................ 2005 Carmelo Anthony
1996 Gary Payton.................. 2005 Vince Carter
1998 Kobe Bryant............ ......2005 Paul Pierce
1998 Allen Iverson.................2003 Allen Iverson
1996 Mitch Richmond.............. 2005 Gilbert Arenas
1998 Latrell Spreewell.............2005 Michael Redd
1998 Eddie Jones................... ?????


The only matchup your list wins is McGrady and Iverson.[/QUOTE]

05 LeBron averaged 27/7/7, better than anybody in the 90s. And are you going to really sit there and say 2nd year Kobe is better than prime Paul Pierce? Kobe was still a bench player in 1998, if you include him on your list that shows how weak the 90s was in terms of swingmen

[QUOTE=tpols]

Gary Payton is not a shooting guard.

But aside from that, 2000s era top tier talent >>> 90s by quite a bit

Dwayne wade
Allen iverson
Tracy mcgrady
Vince carter
Manu ginobili
Ray allen

[/QUOTE]
Dwayne wade........ Scottie Pippen
Allen iverson......... Gary Payton
Tracy mcgrady...... Grant Hill
Vince carter.......... Clyde Drexler
Manu ginobili ........ Mitch Richmond
Ray allen.............. Latrell Sprewell


How is the right side not better, especially considering Jordan played against Ray Allen and Iverson extensively during his 2nd three-peat - the inclusion of those players weakens the 03'-05' list, since they could have been in the 96'-98 list too.
.

[QUOTE=KobesFinger]

05 LeBron averaged 27/7/7, better than anybody in the 90s.

[/QUOTE]
anytime i think of lebron in the triangle, i feel like he'd be a cancer in that offense, but even if you put him over Pippen and put Pierce over Kobe, your list still only wins 4 of the spots.


[QUOTE]

And are you going to really sit there and say 2nd year Kobe is better than prime Paul Pierce? Kobe was still a bench player in 1998, if you include him on your list that shows how weak the 90s was in terms of swingmen

[/QUOTE]
Of course Kobe was better - he was voted as a starter in the all-star game and has always been a more dynamic player than Pierce.. anytime they both had the same playing time, kobe was way better.

he just wasn't getting starter minutes from his conservative coach Dell Harris at the time because the Lakers were THAT stacked with experienced all-stars already in the starting guard spots (Eddie Jones and Van Exel.
.

[QUOTE=3ball]Dwayne wade........ Scottie Pippen
Allen iverson......... Gary Payton
Tracy mcgrady...... Grant Hill
Vince carter.......... Clyde Drexler
Manu ginobili ........ Mitch Richmond
Ray allen.............. Latrell Sprewell


How is the right side not better, especially considering Jordan played against Ray Allen and Iverson extensively during his 2nd three-peat - the inclusion of those players weakens the 03'-05' list, since they could have been in the 96'-98 list too.
.[/QUOTE]
Kobe played against prime Iverson 00 to 06. Prime ray Allen 00 to 08 and beyond. Mj playing against them two years doesn't qualify them for his era. The bulk of their primes and peaks came in the 2000s.

You including pippen and Payton showcases the fact that you can't list any SG's that can compete with 2000s.. And if I add 00s point guards and small forwards

prime LeBron James >>> prime scottie pippen (which shouldn't even be included since Jordan gained from his being in the league.. He was not competition)

Prime Chris Paul, Jason kidd > Gary payton

Dwayne Wade >> Clyde drexler

Manu, tmac, Iverson, Pierce >> mitch Richmond, grant Hill, John starks

Ray Allen > Reggie miller

2000s perimeter talent >> 90s perimeter talent

[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]Please tell me youre joking. None of those guys at their best are even close to a Peak Wade Lebron, Durant or McGrady. Even peak Iverson and Carter are just as good as Peak Drexler or Payton. Penny Richmond Sprewell Jones nor Miller are even in the same tier as Wade Durant Lebron Tmac Iverson or Carter. Theyre in the Ray Allen Michael Redd Peak level.

The SG SF era from 2000-2010 is better than the 1990-2000 era and if you can't see that I don't know what to say to you. Jordans the best, but then you have Kobe Lebron Wade TMac Durant who are all superior to the 2nd best wing from the 90s, whether its Drexler or Pippen or Mullin or whoever.[/QUOTE]

Are you high? Peak Hardaway and Richmond were amazing. Heck MJ said after him, Richmond was not only the most underrated perimeter player, but the best of the 90's. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, Wade and Durant were/are great - no doubt - but to claim that Drexler, Richmond, Penny, or GP weren't even in their league is not only ignorant, but one of the dumbest statements in ISH history.

Learn the game, or kindly shut the f*ck up.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Are you high? Peak Hardaway and Richmond were amazing. Heck MJ said after him, Richmond was not only the most underrated perimeter player, but the best of the 90's. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, Wade and Durant were/are great - no doubt - but to claim that Drexler, Richmond, Penny, or GP weren't even in their league is not only ignorant, but one of the dumbest statements in ISH history.

Learn the game, or kindly shut the f*ck up.[/QUOTE]
Dont tell me to learn the game then proceed to say something as dumb as this. Penny had 2-3 star seasons in his career, with his best season being 22/7/4 which isnt even CLOSE to a peak Wade TMac Durant. 2nd year Wade was better than Pennys best year.

Richmonds best year he topped out at 26/4/4 45% FG which once again isn't at the level of what Wade T-Mac or Durant did at their peaks. He was a low 20s a game guy on average efficiency for his career. Average passer average rebounder average defender.I dont care what Jordan said.

Gary Payton and Clyde Drexler aren't a tier below these guys, probably, but still never proved as dominant in their peaks as Wade TMac or Durant. Payton is only in this category of players because of his defensive impact.

My original point wasnt that they arent great wing players, my point was that 2000s perimeter players are better than the 90s. If you made a top 10 list it would look like this.
1.) Jordan
2.) Lebron
3.) Kobe
4.) Wade
5.) Durant
6.) Drexler
7.) Peyton
8.) AI
9.) T-Mac
10.) Pierce/Carter/Richmond/Allen
He named players like Sprewell or Reggie or Eddie Jones and made it seem like they were superstars, when in reality they were Joe Johnson level and I wouldn't even take them over Prime Manu or Michael Redd

Mitch Richmond is like the Joe Johnson of the 90s. With better longevity.. But same caliber player. Just a run of the mill all star. It's an insult to compare him to all time elite talents like Wade, Durant, or Iverson.. Was mitch Richmond. This is a guy whose never even placed top 10 mvp.. Compared to mvp candidates and winners.

Richmond has multiple defensive/offensive All NBA teams. Joe Johnson is a silly comparison.

[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]Dont tell me to learn the game then proceed to say something as dumb as this. Penny had 2-3 star seasons in his career, with his best season being 22/7/4 which isnt even CLOSE to a peak Wade TMac Durant. 2nd year Wade was better than Pennys best year.[/quote]

It looks "dumb", because you never saw those players amid their pinnacle. Like Mcgrady, Penny's career was cut short, but you neglect to mention he ALSO had postseason runs of 31/6/4 on 47/72/37 and 23/6/5 on 47/74/37. At his best, in the playoffs, Penny was the caliber of player TMac was, and certainly with the likes of AI, Pierce, Wade, and Carter.


[quote]Richmonds best year he topped out at 26/4/4 45% FG[/quote]

Correct, along with elite shooting (43% 3PT / 86% FT) and defense. Keep in mind he did this when perimeter rules weren't as lax and 3PT shooting wasn't necessarily authorized. Dude would be even better today which once again further proves my point. He is without question in the same tier as those guys. You'd have to be completely oblivious to concede otherwise.

[quote]Gary Payton and Clyde Drexler aren't a tier below these guys, probably, but still never proved as dominant in their peaks as Wade TMac or Durant.[/quote]

As dominant? Clyde at his absolute best is on the level of any version of TMac and Wade if we account for defensive principles and playmaking. Durant I'm not sure because of the efficiency, but again, Clyde makes up for that w/ his 10+ years of consistent and superstar, quality brand of basketball.

[quote]My original point wasnt that they arent great wing players[/quote]

And you are wrong.

Payton and Drexler ARE great. They're among the Top 50 and best at their position.

[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]

1.) Jordan
2.) Lebron
3.) Kobe
4.) Wade
5.) Durant
6.) Drexler
7.) Peyton
8.) AI
9.) T-Mac

[/QUOTE]
[B]Durant only played 3 seasons in the 2000's.. so that means Magic, Bird, and Dominique should be included in the 90's.
[/B]
[B]Magic made the Finals in 1991 and All-Star Game in 1992... Bird was 21/10/7 in 1992... and Dominique had the best season of his career in 1993 (29.9 ppg, 7 rebs).. I would take the early 90's version of Magic, Bird, and Dominique over Iverson, Tmac, Drexler, Payton and Durant... I think that goes without saying.
[/B]
The list above also ignores Pippen, Penny and Grant Hill, who should all be above AI, Payton, and Tmac.


Top wing talent from the 90s matches up with any era:

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Barkley
Dominique
Pippen
Drexler
Grant Hill
Penny
Gary Payton

The list above [I]doesn't need[/I] to include Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, or Eddie Jones - just not good enough to make this 90's list.

Barkley? Might as well include Hakeem.

Who are the 10 best SGs and SFs of the Jordan era?

A while ago, I did a count for all of the possessions they guarded each other.

Now to be fair, neither of them guarded each other in their primes. Either MJ was old and Kobe too young, or MJ was too old and Kobe close to his prime. In any case, Mj scored on Kobe more than vice versa. They both had good plays on both ends on each other. But what stood out the most was how MJ was able to contest and challenge Kobe more times than Kobe contested and challenged MJ. MJ was able to get better looks and get more separation than Kobe. Even when MJ was a Wiz and near 40, he was able to stay in front of Kobe and force Kobe to difficult situations (not just shots). When Kobe guarded MJ it appeared as tho MJ managed to get more separation and get easier looks.

Yes Kobe blocked MJ in the all star game... that was a play, we can get that outta the way since we know somebody is gonna repost that gif a million times.

But overall, MJ got better looks and scored more on Kobe than Kobe scored on MJ.

Videos of their matchup are available online if somebody wants to recheck what I posted. Go ahead and feel free, you'll come away with similar conclusion.

[quote=KobesFinger]

[SIZE="3"]Who are the 10 best SGs and SFs of the Jordan era?
[/SIZE]
[/QUOTE]
[B][U]Best SG's:[/U]
[/B]
Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell

[I]Honorable Mention[/I]: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.


[B][U]Best SF's[/U]
[/B]
Larry Bird
Dr. J
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill

[i]Honorable Mention:[/i] Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas


[B]Defensive Specialists (partial list):[/B] Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniels, Michael Finley, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason

What is with you and this Michael Finley nonsense, 3ball? HE WAS NEVER A DEFENSIVE SPECIALIST EVER, PERIOD. You have him as a "great" defender during the Bulls 2nd threepeat too...:biggums: He was awful defensively in his first few seasons and never more than an average defender at his BEST. (IF THAT)

[QUOTE=3ball][B][U]Best SG's:[/U]
[/B]
Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell

[I]Honorable Mention[/I]: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.


[B][U]Best SF's[/U]
[/B]
Larry Bird
Dr. J
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill

[i]Honorable Mention:[/i] Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas


[B]Defensive Specialists (partial list):[/B] Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniels, Michael Finley, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason[/QUOTE]

I should've been more clear, I meant top 10 of both in one list. And by Jordan era I don't mean 84-98, more like 87 or 88 to 98. It was Bird and Magic's league in the mid 80s

[QUOTE=3ball]


[B][U]Best SG's:[/U]
[/B]
Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell

[I]Honorable Mention[/I]: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.
.[/QUOTE]
So... If you tier the shooting guards its

Tier 1
MJ

Tier 2
Kobe, Wade
Clyde
Manu

Tier 3
Allen Iverson, Vince Carter,
Tracy McGrady, Ray allen
Penny Hardaway

Tier 4
Mitch Richmond, Joe dumas, spreewell
Joe Johnson, rip hamilton
Reggie Miller, Blackmon, alvin


00s owns the top tiers.. Most of the 90s list is on the bottom rung.