Official SG comparison thread: 2006 vs. 1997 vs. 1990

Two-foot leaping makes a player better at dunking in the half court and in traffic, where a run-up isn't possible to execute a one-foot jump.. This is valuable in the playoffs when the game slows down.

Clearly, a player that is elite jumping off one leg AND two legs, had a big advantage - MJ was elite at BOTH - here's two foot leaping:


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/GZNuNw.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/lFE09a.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/PIt8Kg.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/zC5nUD.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/l3ZeQlS.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/jzLx3O.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/9w9sNm.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/7RxR9gg.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/TGZukz.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/c0CTqB.gif[/IMG]

[B][U]35/5/5 Games[/U][/B]
Jordan:[B][COLOR="Red"] 34[/COLOR][/B]
James: 17

[B][U]40/5/5 Games[/U][/B]
Jordan: [B][COLOR="Red"]17[/COLOR][/B]
James: 8

[B][U]45/5/5 Games[/U][/B]
Jordan: [B][COLOR="Red"]10[/COLOR][/B]
James: 5

[B][U]50/5/5 Games[/U][/B]
Jordan:[COLOR="Red"][B] 2[/B][/COLOR]
James: 0

[B][U]55/5/5 Games[/U][/B]
Jordan: [B][COLOR="Red"]2[/COLOR][/B]
James: 0

[B][U]60/5/5 Games[/U][/B]
Jordan: [B][COLOR="Red"]1[/COLOR][/B]
James: 0

[QUOTE=aj1987]

[B]Kobe played tougher competition
[/B]
[/QUOTE]
[I]It's a fact that Kobe's prime coincided with the weakest era in NBA history[/I].

From 2002-2006, the NBA couldn't beat Euroleague - literally - they lost to them repeatedly (7 times) on the biggest stage (world stage).

The USA's skills and brand of basketball was so far inferior at that time, that it more than offset their GOAT talent advantage.. That's how weak brand of basketball was that Kobe accumulated his stats against.

*** There's only way to describe an NBA that [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373182][u]can't beat Euroleague[/u][/url]: the worst era of all time ***

[QUOTE=aj1987]

weak-ass defenses

[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="5"]Modern Defense Theory[/SIZE]


Spacing (due to 3-point shooting) makes today's game easier on the offensive end - it's common knowledge that spacing makes EVERYTHING easier on offense.. Driving, passing, and cutting lanes are wider and there's more freedom of movement.. Most importantly, spacing opens up the middle of the floor by forcing defenders to come out of the paint and guard the 3-point line.. Today's teams attempt 22 three-pointers per game, so the floor is spaced at all times.. But in MJ's era - let's say 1991 - teams only attempted 7 three-pointers per game, so there was no floor-spacing.. Even a [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866426&postcount=105][u]cursory glance[/u][/url] at previous era footage shows the severe lack of spacing compared to today's game.

Also, the NBA officially stated that the 2005 rule changes (particularly the hand-check ban) had achieved their objective of increasing penetration (link below).. This is from the source and creator of the new rules, so it's not subjective opinion, similar to how Bill Gates vision for Microsoft would never be considered subjective opinion: [url]http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html[/url]

The 2005 rule changes also banned paint-camping via the defensive 3 seconds rule, which requires defenders to [I]vacate the paint[/I] within 2.9 seconds unless they remain within "armslength" of their man (about 3 feet) - the defensive 3 seconds rule and it's "armslength" provision is described in the first paragraph of the following NBA.com webpage: [url]http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html[/url].. The paint is a massive 16 x 19 feet, so the "armslength" provision requires today's defenders to stand right next to their man, even when their man is already inside the paint!!!... So a defender cannot stand right under the rim while their man is 8 feet away on the block - the defender must go stand near the block right next to their man.. Having to stand right next to your man is precisely what zone is NOT - indeed, the defensive 3 seconds rule bans zone inside the paint..

Otoh, paint-camping was legal in previous eras.. Did you know that?.. See Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines (link below).. Rule 2b allowed defenders to paint-camp ANYWHERE inside the 16 x 19 foot painted area "with no time restriction" if their man was also inside the paint, or within 3 feet of either side.. So a defender COULD stand right under the rim while their man is 8 feet away on the block or even up to 3 feet outside the paint!!.. The 3 feet was denoted by hash marks on both sides of the lane that refs had to eyeball to enforce.. Naturally, refs did a horrible job - defenders frequently camped in the paint while their man was behind the 3-point line [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10704674&postcount=97][u]seen here[/u][/url]... Here's the link to the Illegal Defense Guidelines - Rule 2b is the legal paint-camping provision: [url]http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html[/url]

In today's game, with paint-camping banned, bigs are forced to come out of the paint to flood and shade in the ballhandler's wheelhouse - the perimeter.. Defending guards on the perimeter is a massive disadvantage for bigs, but today's spacing and paint-camping ban necessitate it - otoh, in previous eras, there was no spacing and paint-camping was legal, so bigs didn't need to come out of the paint to shade on the perimeter - they could just wait right under the rim "with no time restriction", as Rule 2b states.. However, they still did shade in some situations, such as [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8][u]screen roll[/u][/url].

To summarize, today's paint-camping ban along with spacing creates a greater need for flooding and shading than previous eras.. Although these partial zones executed outside the paint by slow bigs are easy to beat for perimeter ballhandlers, they provide a bandaid to offset today's spacing, paint-camping ban, and hand-check ban, so defensive effectiveness doesn't fall off a cliff in comparison to previous eras.

It makes sense that the NBA would never take EVERYTHING away from the defense (hand-check ban, physicality ban, paint-camping ban) without giving them something back (zones outside the paint) - the balanced regulatory approach coupled with constant strategic adjustments on both sides of the ball is the reason why league-wide ORtg (how difficult it is to score) has remained between 106-108 for the last 30 years (except from 1998-2004).
.

[QUOTE=3ball]You showed me an example of prime/not-prime, and I showed you one - [B]there are examples on both sides[/B].. But overall, the table demonstrates that the SG's from previous eras are as good or better than 2006.

Meanwhile, all the [I]frontcourt[/I] positions of previous eras blow today's game away - this is due to the 3-point shooting, which lessens the need for 2-point skill (obviously, less 2-pointers affects the frontcourt more).

[I]Just look at the SF's from previous eras - it's clear they [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11296175&postcount=25][u]blow today's SF's away[/u][/url] - [I]clearly, diverse mid-range repertoire > 3-and-D[/I]..
[/I]
And obviously, the PF's and Centers of previous eras blow today's bigs away even MORE.[/QUOTE]
Which is why it's a problem and thus render it rather useless.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/jKb0_s.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/A8fnJo.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/utCEqB.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/UAqJYz.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/ZGUxyC.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/1-kJdN.gif[/IMG]

[IMG][IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/CoyEIr.gif[/IMG][/IMG]

[QUOTE=3ball]We ARE talking era - and it's important to remember that the skill needed to play basketball in no-spacing was much higher, which produced superior players, particularly at the SG thru Center positions.

With no spacing in previous eras, the option of running offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and get an open shot wasn't available, so players had to settle for contested shots more often.. When teams don't run as much offense and settle for contested shots instead, pace and shot volume increase.

The volume shooting associated with 2-pointer basketball and the wider repertoires needed to navigate defenders in closer proximity enabled previous era wings to put more pressure on defenders than today's wings - higher volume and wider repertoires meant previous eras wings were more of a threat to go off for a big game than today's 3-and-D players.

Otoh, today's game requires a slower pace - the spacing necessitates running more offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and set up open 3-point looks.. Also, smaller offensive repertoires are necessary for the wider lanes provided by 3-point shooting and spacing-out environments.. Naturally, it's not surprise that today's 3-and-D wings are less of a threat to go off for a big game and pose less of a threat individually to the defense.. Again, this is in contrast to the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11188520&postcount=37][u][I]more diverse mid-range games[/I][/u][/url] of previous eras, [I][I]which enabled repeated contested shots[/I][/I] and therefore less time-consuming offense.
.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://media.giphy.com/media/9JihohFuu1Kik/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=iamgine]

Which is why it's a problem and thus render it rather useless.

[/QUOTE]
[I]The lists are just to organize the players in front of you - then it's up to the fan to use their acumen and properly analyze the nuances - but having a list right there in front of you IS helpful.[/I]

So far, we have lists showing SG's side-by-side from [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374797][u]1990, 1997, and 2006[/u][/url].

We listed all of MJ and Kobe's defenders [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374797&page=3][u]who were All-NBA Defense[/u][/url].

And we listed the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11296175&postcount=25][u]best SF's from 1984-1998[/u][/url] for comparison to today's eras.

[QUOTE=3ball]Obviously, it goes both ways - for his career, Kobe faced a [I]WASHED UP[/I] Gary Payton for 28 games, yet Payton still averaged 21 PPG to Kobe's 20 PPG.

[I]Whereas MJ got 31 PPG against the mid-90's Sonics THREESOME of prime, DPOY Gary Payton and All-NBA defenders [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11297382&postcount=36][u]Derrick McKey[/u][/url] and Nate McMillan:[/I]

[U]Career Averages:[/U]

[I]MJ vs. DPOY Payton[/I]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01[/url]
[I]Kobe vs. Washed-Up Payton[/I]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=paytoga01[/url]
[/QUOTE]

I don't even like Payton and think he's overrated...but how the hell was he washed up in the late 90s and early 2000s you f*cking shit heel?

[QUOTE=Smoke117]I don't even like Payton and think he's overrated...but how the hell was he washed up in the late 90s and early 2000s you f*cking shit heel?[/QUOTE]
[B]14 of Kobe's 28 career games vs. Payton occurred from the 2003 to 2007 seasons, when Payton was no longer All-NBA defense.[/B]

Yet even though Kobe faced a [I]WASHED UP[/I] Gary Payton, Payton still outplayed Kobe, averaging 21 PPG to Kobe's 20 PPG over their 28 matchups.

Whereas MJ got 31 PPG against the mid-90's Sonics THREESOME of DPOY Gary Payton and All-NBA defenders [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11297382&postcount=36][u]Derrick McKey[/u][/url] and Nate McMillan:

[I]MJ career stats vs. DPOY Payton[/I]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01[/url]
[I]Kobe career stats vs. Washed-Up Payton[/I]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=paytoga01[/url]

[QUOTE=Smoke117]

[IMG]http://media.giphy.com/media/9JihohFuu1Kik/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[/QUOTE]
The NBA now has more definitive ball-dominance data: [url=http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season][u]The data[/u][/url] shows Lebron ranking 8th in the NBA's new dominance measure, defined as: "[I]percentage of points scored with greater than 6 seconds of touch time[/I]"

37.5% of Lebron's points are scored by taking longer than 6 seconds (8th in entire league) - he and Harden were the only non-PG's in the top 50.. :eek:

Despite Lebron enjoying maximum opportunity to accumulate assists by playing point guard, MJ still got higher assist averages in the playoffs and Finals thru age 30 while playing [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11064438&postcount=38][u][I]off[/I][/u][/url]-ball.. Since MJ got more assists despite playing off-ball, that means he's the better passer, especially considering he was also undertaking a 25% higher scoring load in the playoffs (34 PPG to Lebron's 28 PPG) and massive 50% higher in the Finals (36 PPG to 24 PPG) all on better efficiency.

[I]Also, MJ was a better passer at Lebron's own game - as a ball-dominating, point guard[/i].. Despite Lebron's entire career as a ball-dominator and point guard (giving him maximum opportunity to accumulate assists), Lebron has never come [I]anywhere near[/I] the [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic][u][B][SIZE="2"]30/9/11[/SIZE][/b][/u][/url] MJ put up during his 24-game stretch at PG, which included a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.

MJ's point guard numbers were so ridiculous and so much better than anything Lebron or any other non-point guard has ever done, that it can't be chalked up as anomalous - that's clearly what MJ's production was as a point guard.

[I][SIZE="3"]CLIFFS[/SIZE]: MJ was a better passer while playing off-ball (higher assist averages thru age 30 in playoffs and Finals) [U]AND[/U] he was better as a ball-dominant point guard (unequaled, 24-game run at PG, including 30/9/11, and 10 triple-doubles in 11 games).[/I]
.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/740c4aeb63705ef81d066269d25f3e54.gif[/IMG]


Just think how much more he'd dominate WITH spacing.. :bowdown:

Even though MJ would dominate much more in today's game with shooters perpetually spreading the court and opening up the middle of the floor for him, [I]he'd actually be a worse basketball player today[/I] - he'd use inferior moves than what he needed in the no-spacing environments of previous eras and his repertoire would be much weaker.

In today's game, he'd use the spacing to get a much higher proportion of clean looks - his efficiency would be sick, while still undertaking his typical league-leading volume.. [I]But again, he'd be using less sophisticated moves and actually be a WORSE basketball player[/I].. So while high-level moves [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11064438&postcount=38][u]like this[/u][/url] and passes that thread needles [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=355658&page=44][u]like this[/u][/url] were necessary to mitigate defenders in no-spacing environments, they'd be unnecessary in today's game.

For one thing, MJ wouldn't posterize paint-camping 7-footers at the rim like he used to, since paint-camping has been banned.. Instead, those 7-footers are now shading on the perimeter - so instead of finishing on them at the rim like previous eras, MJ would blow by them on the perimeter [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374490][u]in today's game[/u][/url], which is [I]expected[/I] of a perimeter ballhandler and not nearly as impressive.

[QUOTE=aj1987]See, that's why you're a cherry picking retard. The '00's were consistently good with F's and G's. More so than the '90's. That's why you resort to using single years. Otherwise everyone would see your posts (they still do) for the garbage they are.[/QUOTE]

Who would take barkley and malone over dirk, garnett; and duncan ? :oldlol:

It's like a trio of some of the greatest intangibles and leadership guys ever compared to Known choke artists with questionable character.

and mid 2000 guards is >>>

All the 90s had was better centers.everything else the mid 20 00s was better

What do you think about [URL="https://youtu.be/Ujp7Ijf3uM8?t=622"]this layup[/URL]?

One of the toughest ever made

[QUOTE=tpols]

Who would take barkley and malone over dirk, garnett; and duncan ? :oldlol:

[/QUOTE]
You mean this [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10691982&postcount=20][u]Tim Duncan[/u][/url].. [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10923969&postcount=8][u]this Garnett[/u][/url]?

I'd take prime Barkley and Malone over Garnett EASILY - KG has never been able to carry a team offensively to the Finals - EVER.. He could never have done what those guys did.. and Duncan's always been better.

[I]As for Dirk - Malone and Barkley are both a rich man's Dirk - superior offensively and rebounding, same (better actually) defensively.
[/I]